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Thread: Ki = The Never Ending New Waves Discussion

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    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Otters11's Avatar
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    Ki = The Never Ending New Waves Discussion

    Hello World

    Theory
    1. A well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; a concept that is not yet verified but that if true would explain certain facts or phenomena

    Ki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi
    1. The circulating life energy that in Chinese philosophy is thought to be inherent in all things

    Discussion
    1. An extended communication (often interactive) dealing with some particular topic


    Hopefully by creating this thread when people post things that make sense people vote it up, or be able to quote what they agree with. And the rest of the time, at least people have a place to post and discuss it. ~ Peace.

    Spoiler show


    ---------- Post added at 11:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:32 AM ----------

    Well First... I think we should start with what The Breaker actually tells us. So I'm going to collect some images and post them. The best way to support a theory is to cite material evidence to support it. ~ Be Back Here Later (Need A. A free image host and B. Better crop some images.)
    Last edited by Otters11; June 28, 2011 at 11:25 PM.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member hopeandlight's Avatar
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    Re: Ki = The Never Ending New Waves Discussion

    would deviant work?

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    Halfway 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member
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    Re: Ki = The Never Ending New Waves Discussion

    You can use hosting services like Imageshack or tinypic (to name a couple) to host your images.

    You don't need to register for them, the have a free upload service.

    For cropping, I suggest paint.net - its a free paint / editing program.

    If you use a windows pc, you can even crop in the windows live photo gallery.


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    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
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    Re: Ki = The Never Ending New Waves Discussion

    In regards to image hosting, I would just like to add imgur.com. It is gaining a lot of popularity, for how easy it is to use, no file size restrictions, no need for an account, and small urls.

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    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Ketsurou's Avatar
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    Re: Ki = The Never Ending New Waves Discussion

    I will not be focusing exclusively on ki in this post and I apologize for that, but I will be looking at some terms used in The Breaker and the martial arts of the Murim within The Breaker and will be comparing them to similar terms that I am familiar with from traditional Chinese Kung Fu. Ki will be one of those terms, but I will also be looking at others, and in any case this is simply the best thread I could find for this post.

    I am using Chinese terms because I don't know a lot about traditional Korean martial arts and medicine, but I do know a couple things about the Chinese equivalents so I would like to offer my perspective on some of the things in The Breaker's view of Ki as a contribution to this thread. It is interesting how the authors may have used some inspiration from traditional sources.

    In The Breaker (first part), Chapter 26, Page 6, Chun-woo explains the process of training in martial arts that use inner power or ki.

    Spoiler show


    The three steps are listed as “Air Herding,” “Power Distribution,” and “Bloom Through.” Personally, I believe these translations are probably not entirely correct, but this process is exactly the same as that of internal Chinese martial arts.

    “Air Herding” is essentially Qi Gong, or “Energy Skill.” It is the practice of training the energy body to be stronger, cultivating and storing Ki in the ki center, and generally doing basic energy training.

    “Power Distribution” is essentially Nei Gong, or “Internal Skill.” It is the practice of circulating the energy cultivated in the ki center. In this way, ki is distributed throughout the body, and the body becomes reinforced with that vital energy. In The Breaker, the Black Heaven & Earth Technique is a technique of this type, since it is a circulation or distribution technique. In traditional Chinese arts, the Microcosmic Orbit and the Macrocosmic Orbit are also well known circulation techniques.

    “Bloom Through” is essentially Wai Gong, or “External Skill.” These are techniques that use the energy accumulated in the ki center through the first step in order to perform external feats of skill and strength. Virtually every strike or technique that uses ki in The Breaker is a technique of this type. In real martial arts, it is the physical skills of the body such as balance, strength, and proficiency in basic skills like punching and kicking form, but there are also legendary techniques like Fa Jing (a punch where chi is released explosively at the end of a punch, much like the strike Shioon uses) and Qing Gong (Lightness Skill, the name of the technique used to jump high and over long distances in Kung Fu movies like Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon).

    In The Breaker (first part), chapter 27, Page 15, Chun-woo explains SimGiCheHon, the basic components of human existence.

    Spoiler show


    First, the definitions from Chun-woo:

    Sim is the power to think.
    Gi (another spelling of Ki) is the life force in all creation.
    Che is the basic building material that makes up the physical body.
    Hon is the determination to succeed in something (will power, you might say).

    These are very basic definitions, but I am not familiar enough with Korean martial arts to elaborate on the Korean view points of these terms. Instead, I can offer another comparison to traditional Kung Fu in China based on terms that seem similar and I am familiar with.

    Sim seems to be the same as Shen, Gi is the same as Chi (it is well known that Chi and Ki/Gi are different words for the same thing), Che seems to be the same as Jing, and Hon seems to be the same as Yi.

    Now, to explain my understanding of the Chinese terms, to perhaps better understand the Korean terms that are used in The Breaker (and perhaps other Manhwa).

    Shen is the consciousness, or the “mind and spirit” of a person, but not their personality or character or their mind-energy specifically. Rather, one moderately over-simplified way to explain it is to say that Shen is the substance that “consciousness” is made of. Since whether or not one is conscious and how much so determines a persons power to think and mentally function, it seems reasonable to say that Shen and Sim can be called Consciousness.

    Chi—to define chi is something that experts have spent thousands of years, and even just in recent years hundreds of studies, research papers, and books trying to achieve. Suffice to say, for the purpose of this post, Chun-woo's basic explanation is good enough: Chi/Ki is the life force energy that exists in all of creation.

    Jing, like Chi, is a highly debated subject. As such, I won't too strictly define it, but will simply say that it is the binding force that holds the physical body together, and is the source of vitality. That may sound similar to Chi, but they are different because they serve different purposes within the body.

    Before continuing, I would like to also point out that Shen, Chi, and Jing are famously called the Three Treasures in China, both in Traditional Chinese Medicine and Kung Fu. In TCM especially, they are considered the three fundamental building blocks of the human existence. In a strong and healthy body, the three treasures are strong, healthy, and in balance; in a weak and unhealthy body, the three treasures are weak, unhealthy, and out of balance.

    Lastly is Yi. Yi translates to mental “Intent” or “Will.” It is used even in the name of several Chinese martial arts, such as Yi Quan (Intent Fist/Boxing) and Xing-Yi Quan (Form-Intent Fist/Boxing). It is, as Hon was described, “the determination to do something” or, you might say, “the intention to do something.” As an example, when Shioon first battled So-Chun Hyuk, no matter how badly he was hurt he continued to stand again and again. Even when his body didn't want to move anymore, he still stood simply on will power. That is Hon, and that is why on the page where it is described by Chun-woo it is translated as “Soul.”

    There is a lot more to all of it than this, but knowing this information has given a specific perspective to reading The Breaker and made the series very enjoyable for me. It is interesting to pay attention to and notice the similarities between some traditional arts and the exaggerated fiction of The Breaker.
    Last edited by Ketsurou; July 05, 2013 at 04:02 PM.

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    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Ketsurou's Avatar
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    Re: Ki = The Never Ending New Waves Discussion

    I originally made this next post in the Chapter 122 discussion, but because of so many thanks, I have decided to include it here in this post so that the information is not buried along with the thread as we move along into new chapters. A lot can be found out about acupuncture with some basic research online and off, but I hope the following will help my fellow Breaker fans understand how the acupoint techniques that Smiling Blade, Shik, and others have been using work and allow you to have a slightly better understanding of just how deep this series really is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ketsurou View Post
    There are two different sets of meridians in Chinese energy arts. One is the 12 Medical Meridians, the theory of which was developed by medical doctors. The other is the 8 Extraordinary Vessels, which was developed by Taoist monks and martial artists. Today, they are both viewed as two legitimate circulation systems, where one is used for medical purposes and the other is used to cultivate enlightenment or martial arts power.

    The 12 meridians are deeply rooted in the central nervous system, and connect to organs and a bunch of other things. Ki circulates along these 12 lines, supplying energy throughout the whole body, and also carrying electrical signals around the body to and from the brain because of the nervous system doing its job. When Ki builds up in one place, or is too weak in one place, or is in general out of balance, this causes pain and disease and Acupuncture is thus the science of restoring balance.

    There are 360 "cavities" along these 12 lines, which are places where ki flows out of the body or into it, as well as a few other things. Because each of these 360 cavities, or acupuncture points, are on different parts of the body and correspond to different nerves and organs, pressing these points via acupressure or pressing needles into them via acupuncture can cause different effects within the body. For example, it is common knowledge in modern martial arts that if you press certain points, it will hurt...a lot. Conversely, in TCM, if you press certain points you can remove stagnant ki or press ki into places that are deficient, or you can move ki from a place where it is stagnant to a place where it is deficient. Thus is the science of acupuncture--restoring balance within the body.

    The 8 Extraordinary Vessels are a bit different, in that they are not directly connected to the body, through the central nervous system or any other direct means. Now, "everything is tied together," so the 8 Extraordinary Vessels certainly do influence the body, but it is not a straight up part of it like the 12 Meridians are. The theory of these 8 vessels was developed by Daoist Priests and Hermits, in order to circulate ki through the energy body, and thus strengthen the flow of ki, which leads to greater health, greater strength, and longevity. It also pulls into balance, strengthens, and "combines" Shen, Qi, and Jing, which is the Chinese version of Sim Gi Che Hon in The Breaker. I think I should also mention that ki circulating through the 8 vessels is dependent upon the Dantian, which is the "Ki Center" in the lower abdomen. If the dantian has a full charge, energy can be circulated through the 8 vessels easily. If the dantian is weak, out of balance, or broken, that will influence how much energy is circulated through the 8 vessels as well. This is why Shioon lost his ability to use ki when his ki center was broken--by removing the battery, the power lines became empty.

    Traditionally, the two most famous circulation exercises involving the 8 Vessels would be the Microcosmic Orbit and the Macrocosmic Orbit, which you can learn a bit about with a quick google search (stay away from Mantak Chia, though). Many schools have different versions of these circulation exercises, and even the higher levels of famous schools like Mo Pai are just a different version of the microcosmic orbit (which is, in its self, a testament to that exercise).

    Because, traditionally, there are two circulation systems like this I am also inclined to believe that BHET also simply circulates ki either through the microcosmic or the macrocosmic orbit, simply in some way that is different than the normal and more natural methods.

    So, to recap: there are 12 meridians within the physical body, rooted in the central nervous system, with 360 "points" along them. Pressing these points influences the nervous system and the organs, which can be used for healing in medicine or for inducing pain, paralysis, or a lot worse in martial arts. Above these, there are 8 meridians within the energy body, which is rooted to the energetic level, but by by "filling" these 8 vessels (think back to when Granny taught Shioon the meditation practice, when she put her ki into him--she was filling up his 8 vessels), that surplus of energy can make the body stronger and healthier.

    And there you have it. Acupuncture and Qi Gong Meridians 101.

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