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Translations: Gintama 507 (2)
What if they are truly the strongest team in terms of actual teamwork, which those others have never shown before. Laxus and Mystogan are mighty strong, but I can't imagine them working as a team, even less using unison raid or combined attacks.
There is no proof whatsoever Team Natsu has any exceptional teamwork over even say Shadow Gear, especially not back then.
No, seriously. Building a team is not about adding the nominal strongest mages onto a team. You have to consider things like motivation to go against the opponents, how good the players know each other, and whether they actually have some sympathy and respect for each other or not - especially if there's some kind of limit you can throw in a match.
And your team lacks of motivation to crush Saber Tooth therefore it can't be the Strongest Team to meet them in the tournament. Just look on the Fairies' reactions when Minerva ambushed Lucy. As I said later on:
And the teamwork was "majorly inferior" in the Oracion Seis battle? Are you serious? Stepping in for the team comrade who's in a pinch is the frickin' BASICS of teamwork! And that happened like every second chapter of that arc...
And the newly founded Elsa-Natsu-Gray-Lucy-Happy team was against Eisenwald stronger than the Raijinshuu against Ghoul Spirit as they still had to defeat Lullaby.
2- About the fight against Azuma: the manga doesn't make it clear if she was weak because of her mentality. She had been battling Elfman that same day.
1) In a berserk state she used it first time in years so that even made the blast of stored energy. After that she could use it freely.
2) Blaming the "plot power" to justify the weak point in your theory isn't a good idea.
3) Even forgetting her lack of mana she pulled her strongest punches and still did no damage to Azuma. There might be not much of them but they were strong and still useless. And Erza fought Azuma when he was empowered by the Tenrou Island power.
2) The problem is in your perception of her true power level she once had.
If you think that she already had her S-class power level on Tenrou Island than that means she with her top S-class power were not able to do more than others non S-class mages such as Gray, Elfman, Fried and Jubia and so she is equal in terms of power with them. Do you really see her being that weak?
I personally think her top S-class power were way stronger than the power level she had on Tenrou Island so she was progressing in it and still has.
3) It's simple. Mira is not Elfman. It's 2 different people in case you haven't noticed. Mira is way softer to begin with and they had absolutely different issues. Elfman's issue was that he isn't strong enough to control his power and to protect his sister so he became stronger in terms of "being a man".
Mira was strong enough but she hadn't enough heart's warmth so she became caring person to give all the love to people around because they can die too quickly to waste time with them on fighting.
4) No fight she had after the fight with Fried was as good as one with Fried, for example in terms of magical power
5) The very fact that they knew that form indicates she were able to use it before Lisanna's "death" and yet, if she regained full control over her powers after fight with Fried, even in dire times of the threat to her beloved sister's life she didn't used that form but instead waited for stupid pin-up contest to shine in full strength? That's very convincing.
I can understand that she could regain her past glory during those 3 months of training thought it's not yet fully proven in manga but the idea that she got full control over her powers after the fight with Fried is just nonsense to me.
6) I NEVER said that Gray is stronger than Mira. I said they are roughly equal now because Gray had few years to catch up with Mira while she did no progress at all.
I doubt she became stronger than years ago because Laxus and Erza knew about that strongest demon soul of her so she had it before and just now regained her full strength. But to get 100% proof that "Mira is back" we need to see her fighting for real so let's hope we will get it in that arc =)
The only thing I'll comment on:
That doesn't mean it's good teamwork.Quote:
Look at the Oracion Seis taking on the entire light team. It's quite clear their teamwork was extremely superior. Then compare it to Natsu and Gajeel who barely even helped each other, but rather made it 2 1v1 fights.
It's pretty obvious Fairy Tail is known for its individual mage strength over any teamwork it may or may not possess.
Also, just because something is used for comic relief doesn't mean it's wrong. It's a fact that they were scared of Erza and if not for getting closer with her, likely still would.
Now, if you actually be serious about the debate instead of side-step everything with over generalizations that are irrelevant to the point, please say so. I'll make my case clear.
Mirajane is stronger than Gray. This is not Fairy Tail's strongest team. Now, if you have something to argue, feel free. Because any feats will easily be countered as Mirajane's are much better and frankly, all the Gray argument is making excuses.
The ONLY reason Gray was put in the battle is for plot. No more, no less. Not because it's logical, but rather, because simply Rufus vs Gray is more hyped up than Mirajane vs Rufus. Heck, why bully Gray? The same should very well apply to Natsu and Gajeel.
Last edited by WilliamK; August 16, 2012 at 02:53 AM.
Not logical? Like using Dragon Slayers for Dragon Slayers, Lightning users against lightning users? It's logical for them to beat ST in each magic to give some proper comparison.
There's actually no solid evidence that Mira is stronger. She did make S-Class first, but Gray could very well have taken that rank too if it weren't for GH showing up (in fact, considering that he and Loke could easily overpower Lucy/Cana, who were on their way to the grave, he had the best odds of passing) As Schabrak pointed out Mira was only seen dominating a reserve member since the arc started. Mira had 3 months of training, Gray had a magic boost that compensated for 7 years of training. If Gray's not as good as Mira he's certainly not so much weaker that it was stupid to place her in the final team rather than the guy who was really motivated to get back at a member of the rival guild.
Whether or not you accept this, Mirajane has shot off beams equal to that or likely stronger than Natsu's attack against Gemma with sheer ease, has a much larger diverse range and basically has combat advantages against Gray - especially when his hand-to-hand combat is inferior to that of Ultear's. Also it's clear from your post you're not actually going to try actually debating but rather simply repeat the possibility that Gray is stronger than Mirajane for absolutely no reason.
Then, may I ask why everyone is immaturely picking on Mirajane? Gray may have gotten stronger than Erza and even Laxus, however from what we've seen that is unfortunately not true - and of course, we haven't seen much. All you done is repeat what others have said, not exactly fruitful. The changes of Gray being stronger than Mirajane are that akin to Erza, not impossible, but extremely unlikely.
Also, second origin does not compensate for 7 years at all. Going by Mangastreams translation, all it says is that the second origin would only compensate for the 3 months they missed out on - the time limit opportunity they had to train. Heck, even that is ambiguous. All that was said was "In other words, it will give a giant boost to your magical power, even more than any training you've done until now." (which evidently isn't much) and comparing it to another translation simply said it boosts their magical power! Anything outside these translations are just your imagination and shouldn't be taken into account for a debate.
It's clear that 3 months training can result in equal to that of the second origin being unlocked. Just look at Elfman, Gajeel and Cana. Heck, even Laxus.
If anything, those 3 months training had resulted them in being stronger than the 7 years that other characters had gone through.
Last edited by WilliamK; August 17, 2012 at 03:01 AM.
Cana didn't work with three months of training. She had Mavis give her a cheat.
FT was way behind with their 7 year absence. Natsu went from losing to Max, one of the guild's less respected members, to curb stomping Sabertooth's best after getting the power up. It was worth more than 3 months.
She flies, fires demonic magic and is strong in CQC? Yes she is not an ice make user like Gray, who's unlikely to create living and light enough ice to create wings to fly, he shoots and fights with ice, not his hands[of course that's the place he forms/summons it from]. Still a strong close to long range fighter, try rereading his fights.
I do so because your arguments aren't convincing and sometimes wrong.
Who is this everyone people like to talk about? Adress the people you want to have a discussion with, please. You might want to read my latest post on her, where I express satisfaction for Miras current state.
You got that right, we did not have the chance to see him fight in a normal fight and that's the biggest hole in your argumentation. You are rating a character from which we got nearly no good representation yet. To come back to your previous post:
The only reason Gray lost was to make his fight more exciting, not logical, but because he and Rufus had a predetermined fight. See how your argument works against yourself?Originally Posted by WilliamK
Last edited by Schabrak; August 17, 2012 at 04:50 AM.
I do agree Mirajane's main forte is offensive magic, however Gray has absolutely no chance against her long-range or close up. If we take into account Gray's opponents, Mirajane could have dominated a large majority of them, par Racer and Ultear who he didn't win fairly against either of them. Even this starts as a close up battle, Gray's combat skills are inferior to Ultear's. I have no clue how he will tackle Mirajane who endorses hand to hand combat more than he ever will and also how she combines large-scale magical attacks with her hand to hand combat. It should also be taken into account that she summoned one of the largest attacks in Fairy Tail in almost no time. Though Gray's Ice-Make speed is comparable, his strongest attacks Gungir or Cold Excalibur are something that will never hit Mirajane for her speed and flight advantage. We should also take into account Gungir may only be effective in the water as it literally traps the opponent in an ice burg.
This all of course, taking into account her common Satan Soul and not Halphas or Sitri, both of which are remarkably stronger. Heck, let's take in her long range attacks. Outside of her water and sleep magic, she can simply shoot large beams like so or even at not full power like such. Taking into account Halphas as well - something Mashima specifically designed, she also has ranged attacks in that form, although requires charge up.
Now, Mirajane is extremely underrated for some reason. I'm not sure if this was because of Azuma - where Mirajane was already handicapped from lack of magic from prior using Satan Soul (something that shouldn't be used consecutively before the timeskip), something she points out herself as she doesn't have any power left to defeat him. If you compare her strongest attack in that form to when she uses it at full power to when she uses it using Satan Soul for a second time there's a clear difference. And to throw in another reason to why Satan Soul isn't a consecutive spell, she also summoned it again against Acnologia, but didn't maintain the form for even a page. It's simple, Mirajane only lost to Azuma because of essence of her magic not supposed to be used twice in one day - not because she's weaker. She was given a massive handicap.
Basically, Mirajane could arugably defeat Azuma if not for Satan Soul being a spell she can't use over and over again. This too, completely ignoring how the few times she got directly hit was from Lisanna being a distraction and her refusing to originally even use the spell. Now if you can truly call this Azuma's victory, without being clearly given unfair advantages (something often dubbed "nakama power" when given to heroes), I'm not sure what to say. It's irrelevant to the debate at hand, just trying to figure out why she's underrated and if it is for the Azuma battle, she shouldn't be.
Now, even ignoring her original form and Halphas (a soul that dominated her original form), she has Sitri. The strongest Satan Soul in terms of Erza. Now, we do know that Mirajane was able to blitz Jenny and though we do not know her strength, we can assume she's at least average or above average in capability as a magician - she's a reserve for a reason and the only other reserves we've seen are all capable magicians. After all, guilds would of course, try to make the best team possible. Now, even if Jenny's skills are only that of a normal magician, Mirajane clearly attacked her in a way that she was unable to defend herself which isn't common even in higher-leveled fighters.
I mean really, despite Gray getting quite a bit of benefits such as inability to die and also magical power boosts from the Tenrou tree, he was still unable to knock out Ultear - even after Gungir and his Seven Sword Dance (something of which I doubt Ultear would normally get caught in, nor Mirajane). I mean, half way through Ultear stopped using her time magic completely and Gray clearly had plot on his side.
Yeah... Mirajane's more variable.
Has more range.
Holds a lot more power.
Likely holds more speed.
Is better at up-close fighting.
Gray of course, does has his own strengths such as his endurance and such, but even with his second origin unlocked - I don't see him winning. Same with Gajeel and Natsu, to be honest. Everyone got stronger together and really, power levels should still roughly remain the same, as implying one character trained harder than the other isn't really a good assumption. Given that Gray relied on his Ice-Make when attacking Nulpudding, there is nothing to assume any of the above has changed.
Now before people hate on me, Gray is an alright character for me. No, I don't hate him. I just frankly don't see how he is stronger than Mirajane. You can go on about possibilities this, possibilities that, but the same applies to Mirajane. There's a possibility she's back as Erza's rival and stronger than Jura! Now how likely is that? Not by much.
With that said, I do support him fighting Rufus over Mirajane, but I don't support him being weaker than her. As hoeru said before, motivation is the thing I see why Gray (and Natsu/Gajeel) were put in the team over her.
And Gray took actually the same flying kick in his stomach from Ulltear that Mira dealt to Fried and Azuma.
So anything about Zentopia so far is irrelevant.
even a scratch on Jenny... She only passed out due to a shock.
And about that Gray's attacks will never hit her, we know that Mira is easily distracted by the enemy and loses concentration too fast(Elfman + Eva, Azuma).
And what about her inability to hold her magic for long? Her brother and sister using basically same magic are able to change forms very easily so it's not the flaw of the magic. It looks to me her magic is "rush" oriented and tries to destroy opponent by overwhelming force. But if the enemy is able to withstand that storming attack what will Mira do then?