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Thread: The Use of Magic and All Things Related. (May contain spoilers)

  1. #31
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member WilliamK's Avatar
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    Re: The Use of Magic and All Things Related. (May contain spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by hoeru View Post
    How do you fight someone you just found out to be your master's daughter while trying to convince her of her wrong path? You don't go all in.

    And Gray took actually the same flying kick in his stomach from Ulltear that Mira dealt to Fried and Azuma.
    Thanks for the reply! Yes, I did mention in my post that Gray's one thing he would almost definitely have over Mirajane is endurance - or at least his determination to keep going, as seen in his fight with Bixlow. However, the problem with the Ultear fight is that she literally discarded using Time Arc and heck, even when they went to hand-to-hand and really just stayed there. Now, Gray's hand-to-hand combat is nothing to laugh at, however it should be noted in the water that he had an unfair advantage both getting the first strike and Ultear stopped flowing for quite a bit giving him time to charge Gungir and "defeat" her, which was more or less Ultear just losing will to battle than actually losing in combat.

    Quote Originally Posted by hoeru View Post
    Read again: Those weren't range attacks. She attacked her opponents from close range. Nothing Mira has shown indicates, that she has the same range as Gray.
    Both were used at short range - in respect to her hand-to-hand combat, however can also be used at long-range, as seen when she used it on Azuma. It's true Gray's arrow has a large range, but be reasonable. This isn't Lyon, Sherry and Gray vs Mirajane - this is Gray vs Mirajane. There is no way for him to get an opportunity to shoot Mirajane from a very far distance and she does have her nuke-beams, Sitri-speed and such to avoid or counter the arrow in any case.


    Quote Originally Posted by hoeru View Post
    Episode 138 is a filler, and as fillers aren't done by the original author - he doesn't have to give his okay - so it's not relevant at all to strength comparisons, as the content is contradicting in most cases anyways. That's a basic in discussion about manga.

    So anything about Zentopia so far is irrelevant.
    Except it's been referenced in the manga, but that's irrelevant to the debate. It's up to the reader of my post to determine whether they count the form as canon or not, because it was clearly Mashima's idea to insert it where he even posted a sketch of it on his twitter, as well as for Midnight.

    Contrary to what one may think, a large, large majority take the fillers at least half-canon.

    Quote Originally Posted by hoeru View Post
    You saw the hit connecting to Jenny? There isn't even a scratch on Jenny... She only passed out due to a shock.
    I never really said she hit Jenny, just blitzed her. I agree with what you're saying, but I think it still stands to say she out-sped her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edelheld View Post
    That's a lot about Mira's attack but what about Mira's defense? It looks to me she has only speed for that to count.
    And about that Gray's attacks will never hit her, we know that Mira is easily distracted by the enemy and loses concentration too fast(Elfman + Eva, Azuma).
    And what about her inability to hold her magic for long? Her brother and sister using basically same magic are able to change forms very easily so it's not the flaw of the magic. It looks to me her magic is "rush" oriented and tries to destroy opponent by overwhelming force. But if the enemy is able to withstand that storming attack what will Mira do then?
    Good points. We have not much on Mirajane's defence, however from both her brawl with Freed and Azuma, she didn't get slowed down from what we've seen. But yeah, no real beneficial defence feats, which isn't necessarily a problem here because Gray's offensive power and speed to hit her isn't as noteworthy as Mirajane's. As for getting distracted, I'm not sure why - in a battle - Gray would make a tactical maneuver saying he's Lisanna's daughter to distract Mirajane, however if with the assumption he did, well, I guess he could get a hit in with Cold Excalibur - only assuming he hasn't already got it out as his Ice-Make does require build-up time and such. The only time she's really distracted is through her siblings, which aren't really accountable in a battle unless he's taking them hostage.

    Anyway, I do agree Mirajane's aim is to overwhelm and destroy her opponents. However, I don't think the enemy will withstand it. Assuming both are at full power and Mirajane hasn't used Satan Soul in the day, we have yet to ever see her lose - or even be on any brink of losing magical power upon her first summon and she shouldn't assume so for Gray. Now, this isn't saying she has unlimited power, but we have to take into account that from what we've seen with Freed, Mary, Azuma and even Jenny that she doesn't stop her attacks, when she's winning (although in the case of Azuma, she got hit a few times from Lisanna and stopped to look at Lisanna). She usually however doesn't stop her attacks until they're pretty much on the ground really.
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  2. #32
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member hoeru's Avatar
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    Re: The Use of Magic and All Things Related. (May contain spoilers)

    There isn't such a thing as "half canon", nor is it the reader's decision what to take as canon or not. And the Zentopia incident was defined by one page of 20 others in one chapter and completely without any detail - that does not make the filler canon at all. Twitter doesn't provide much proof either, as it simply didn't appear in the manga.

    Quote Originally Posted by WilliamK View Post
    Thanks for the reply! Yes, I did mention in my post that Gray's one thing he would almost definitely have over Mirajane is endurance - or at least his determination to keep going, as seen in his fight with Bixlow. However, the problem with the Ultear fight is that she literally discarded using Time Arc and heck, even when they went to hand-to-hand and really just stayed there. Now, Gray's hand-to-hand combat is nothing to laugh at, however it should be noted in the water that he had an unfair advantage both getting the first strike and Ultear stopped flowing for quite a bit giving him time to charge Gungir and "defeat" her, which was more or less Ultear just losing will to battle than actually losing in combat.
    Ulltear's advantage of being his master's mislead daughter to be convinced of her wrong path, wasn't unfair? While Gray was pressuring on her so Time Arc became useless based on his fighting skills... Seriously, you should check what to define "inferior" or less relevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by WilliamK View Post
    I never really said she hit Jenny, just blitzed her. I agree with what you're saying, but I think it still stands to say she out-sped her.
    Well, if the hit didn't connect nor left any traces of an impact it can't be taken as proof of her being superior over Gray in general.
    Last edited by hoeru; August 18, 2012 at 08:06 AM.

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  4. #33
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member Edelheld's Avatar
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    Re: The Use of Magic and All Things Related. (May contain spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by WilliamK View Post
    ...
    1) Good points. We have not much on Mirajane's defence, however from both her brawl with Freed and Azuma, she didn't get slowed down from what we've seen. But yeah, no real beneficial defence feats, which isn't necessarily a problem here because Gray's offensive power and speed to hit her isn't as noteworthy as Mirajane's....
    2) Anyway, I do agree Mirajane's aim is to overwhelm and destroy her opponents. However, I don't think the enemy will withstand it. ...
    1) As I assumed about Mira's main "rush" tactics, Gray just needs to withstand her burst attack and then catch her by surprise and deliver the final blow. He don't need incredibly strong attack spells for that. And remembering how he easily defended guild masters from Lullaby's attack with his shield those Mira's big blasts don't look that intimidating =)
    2) Of course, to prove or disprove my point on that we'll need some Mira's straight words or real fight when she is not frenzied, fillered, weakened by previous fight or fanserviced. And we have a huge lack of that =(
    As long as you agrees Mira is not overwhelmingly stronger than Gray and choosing him for the team is at least might be somehow justified not only by the plot needs - I'm happy =)
    ---
    It seems you forgot that it's not about Mira vs. Gray fight, it's about who will benefit to the team more. And here I were about to tell of Gray's versatility, his team-up experience with Natsu and Elsa and so on but judging from all previous fights that tournament was mostly full of ass pull wins and comic reliefs. Tag team fights have shown only one combined attack by Bacchus and Rocker and other tag team fight were not even shown. No tactics, no mind games, just sheer stupid crushing power. So what's the point in all that "teamwork" skills? =(
    <I'll go cry now>

  5. #34
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
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    Re: The Use of Magic and All Things Related. (May contain spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by hoeru View Post
    There isn't such a thing as "half canon", nor is it the reader's decision what to take as canon or not. And the Zentopia incident was defined by one page of 20 others in one chapter and completely without any detail - that does not make the filler canon at all. Twitter doesn't provide much proof either, as it simply didn't appear in the manga.
    I'm sorry, but there is no way you can possibly take the manga saying something along the lines of "because of the recent Zentopia incident, there are so few celestial spirit mages left", together with a picture of the zentopia main base pulled straight from the anime, which is showing a ton of celestial spirit mages being killed or at best completely losing all of their magic and call the filler non-canon.

    The point about Twitter was that Mashima was doing the character designs for the filler. He's also written the general plot of the anime filler, but you'd need the cover pages that almost never get translated to prove that.

    I don't understand how "Written by the manga author" together with "character designs by the author" and "mentioned in the manga" could possibly result in anything other than it being canon. Obviously he couldn't go into heavy detail about it, because that would make it redundant watching the anime arc at.

    Anyway...

    Quote Quote:
    Ulltear's advantage of being his master's mislead daughter to be convinced of her wrong path, wasn't unfair? While Gray was pressuring on her so Time Arc became useless based on his fighting skills... Seriously, you should check what to define "inferior" or less relevant.
    Time Arc didn't become useless. Ultear picked up the idiot ball. If she really wanted to win, she could easily have dispelled Greys spells again because he stopped using blood, and regardless there was absolutely no way he could have used his finishing spell with his own blood. She clearly gave up the fight and let grey win

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  7. #35
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member WilliamK's Avatar
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    Re: The Use of Magic and All Things Related. (May contain spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by hoeru View Post
    There isn't such a thing as "half canon", nor is it the reader's decision what to take as canon or not. And the Zentopia incident was defined by one page of 20 others in one chapter and completely without any detail - that does not make the filler canon at all. Twitter doesn't provide much proof either, as it simply didn't appear in the manga.
    Sorry, using half-canon is a bad term. But to the contrary to what you think, canon is the reader's decision. "In fiction, canon is the conceptual material accepted as "official" in a fictional universe's fan base."

    Quote Originally Posted by hoeru View Post
    Ulltear's advantage of being his master's mislead daughter to be convinced of her wrong path, wasn't unfair? While Gray was pressuring on her so Time Arc became useless based on his fighting skills... Seriously, you should check what to define "inferior" or less relevant.

    Well, if the hit didn't connect nor left any traces of an impact it can't be taken as proof of her being superior over Gray in general.
    Ultear is stronger than Gray, likely by far. I don't think that's really debatable.

    The point was that Mirajane could blitz someone at very least that has the ability of a normal magician (something Jenny is likely above anyway) - something of which isn't common throughout Fairy Tail.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edelheld View Post
    1) As I assumed about Mira's main "rush" tactics, Gray just needs to withstand her burst attack and then catch her by surprise and deliver the final blow. He don't need incredibly strong attack spells for that. And remembering how he easily defended guild masters from Lullaby's attack with his shield those Mira's big blasts don't look that intimidating =)
    2) Of course, to prove or disprove my point on that we'll need some Mira's straight words or real fight when she is not frenzied, fillered, weakened by previous fight or fanserviced. And we have a huge lack of that =(
    As long as you agrees Mira is not overwhelmingly stronger than Gray and choosing him for the team is at least might be somehow justified not only by the plot needs - I'm happy =)
    ---
    It seems you forgot that it's not about Mira vs. Gray fight, it's about who will benefit to the team more. And here I were about to tell of Gray's versatility, his team-up experience with Natsu and Elsa and so on but judging from all previous fights that tournament was mostly full of ass pull wins and comic reliefs. Tag team fights have shown only one combined attack by Bacchus and Rocker and other tag team fight were not even shown. No tactics, no mind games, just sheer stupid crushing power. So what's the point in all that "teamwork" skills? =(
    <I'll go cry now>
    The main problem with Gray finishing someone on Mirajane's level off in a single sweep of attacks is that both his seven-sword dance (often what he uses to attack anyone) and also Gungir both proved ineffective in knocking out Ultear. Anyway, no offence to Lullaby, but it lacks feats and got stomped pretty easily. At least compared to Deliora, it's much more inferior in terms of fighting.

    Anyway, whether or not Mirajane stomps Gray or not should be comparable to Erza vs Gray. I don't think either would stomp him, but I do find it questionable that he would defeat either, in my opinion.

    I do think he should've been included instead though, as unlike the others, he has wanted to continue fighting in the tournament since Rufus - so at the very least, he has the motivation for this.
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  8. #36
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member hoeru's Avatar
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    Re: The Use of Magic and All Things Related. (May contain spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lozmaster View Post
    The point about Twitter was that Mashima was doing the character designs for the filler. He's also written the general plot of the anime filler, but you'd need the cover pages that almost never get translated to prove that.
    Neither writing the GENERAL plot nor doing the character designs does make a anime-only plots canon, as the link in the manga is still way too plain and without ANY detail. They stay fillers. Heck the anime itself is completely interpreted from what Mashima created in his manga. Just compare those silly seals that appear in the anime to them not appearing at all in the manga.

    Why should be Fairy Tail here any different than other manga with anime adaptions? Because of one page?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lozmaster View Post
    Obviously he couldn't go into heavy detail about it, because that would make it redundant watching the anime arc at.
    Watching an anime adaption is redundant, aside the action in a tv show is changed and violence toned down, and aside from those parts that are anime-only. And anime-only episodes are: Fillers, and fillers aren't canon.

    But as you say. Kageyama killing off his comerades in episode 4 is canon, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lozmaster View Post
    Time Arc didn't become useless. Ultear picked up the idiot ball. If she really wanted to win, she could easily have dispelled Greys spells again because he stopped using blood, and regardless there was absolutely no way he could have used his finishing spell with his own blood. She clearly gave up the fight and let grey win
    You can't say at all that she still could use Time Arc. She didn't use it until she recovered the Tenrô tree. And as we've seen from Azuma, using Arc magic is risky - and once you overuse it, you lose your life. Ulltear is smart enough not to cross that line, as she likely had to cross that line while fighting Gray.

  9. #37
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Schabrak's Avatar
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    Re: The Use of Magic and All Things Related. (May contain spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lozmaster View Post
    Spoiler show
    Plot and characters desgined by the mangaka don't make them canon. That's where the whole discussion about it being filler or not ends. Shiki is a canon OP character, the SW movie is still filler. Hell was named once in the Bleach manga, the characters were designed by Tite, the Hellverse movie and it's depiction of hell are still filler, just as well as the Bounties and Zanpakatou portrayals. Allusions are in no way evidence for something being real in the manga.

    Quote Originally Posted by WilliamK View Post
    Sorry, using half-canon is a bad term. But to the contrary to what you think, canon is the reader's decision. "In fiction, canon is the conceptual material accepted as "official" in a fictional universe's fan base."
    No it's not the readers decision, I don't know where you got that idea from. e.g. George Lucas decides what's SW canon and what's not, not you, not I, not even the authors of those books expanding on his creation.
    Last edited by Schabrak; August 20, 2012 at 06:01 AM.
    Firm but Fair

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  11. #38
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member WilliamK's Avatar
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    Re: The Use of Magic and All Things Related. (May contain spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    No it's not the readers decision, I don't know where you got that idea from. e.g. George Lucas decides what's SW canon and what's not, not you, not I, not even the authors of those books expanding on his creation.
    I'm sorry, but what I gave was a definition from wikipedia. You can go argue with the editors over there if you disagree. Basically, if we really get down to it, it's what determines what is official to the story, which though of course, comes from the mangaka, does not mean work not done by the mangaka isn't canon and work the mangaka does is canon.

    Also, this is also irrelevant to the original thread, so I don't understand why you quoted just to talk about filler being canon or not as a debate, because the thread is about magic.

    The original Mirajane argument seems to have ended, so... hrug:
    Last edited by WilliamK; August 20, 2012 at 06:33 AM.
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  12. #39
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member Edelheld's Avatar
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    Re: The Use of Magic and All Things Related. (May contain spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by WilliamK View Post
    ...
    1) The main problem with Gray finishing someone on Mirajane's level off in a single sweep of attacks is that both his seven-sword dance (often what he uses to attack anyone) and also Gungir both proved ineffective in knocking out Ultear. Anyway, no offence to Lullaby, but it lacks feats and got stomped pretty easily. At least compared to Deliora, it's much more inferior in terms of fighting.
    2) Anyway, whether or not Mirajane stomps Gray or not should be comparable to Erza vs Gray. I don't think either would stomp him, but I do find it questionable that he would defeat either, in my opinion.
    ...
    1) That's the tactics Gray mostly uses - to wear the enemy and then strike him down. So he don't need super strong attacks. And his defensive abilities do not demand a lot of his power so he can just spam them.
    And there is also Ice Cannon thing with the attacks you named. He knocked off Lyon with that one.
    2) And why in a world that should be compared to Elsa vs. Gray?

    Quote Originally Posted by WilliamK View Post
    I'm sorry, but what I gave was a definition from wikipedia. You can go argue with the editors over there if you disagree. Basically, if we really get down to it, it's what determines what is official to the story, which though of course, comes from the mangaka, does not mean work not done by the mangaka isn't canon and work the mangaka does is canon.
    Also, this is also irrelevant to the original thread, so I don't understand why you quoted just to talk about filler being canon or not as a debate, because the thread is about magic.
    ...
    Nice way of throwing hoeru and Schabrak off the Fairy Tail's fan base =)
    The author decides what's canon in his universe because it's his full creation. If the universe is widespread among many authors and the main author of the universe is dead or don't pay much attention to what is canon then the fan base decide what is canon. Just name one fictional universe in which fan base's word is heavier than author's in deciding canon. I doubt you can.
    Hey, don't blame him, you started it when you remembered Mira's attack from anime =)

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  14. #40
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member WilliamK's Avatar
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    Re: The Use of Magic and All Things Related. (May contain spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Edelheld View Post
    1) That's the tactics Gray mostly uses - to wear the enemy and then strike him down. So he don't need super strong attacks. And his defensive abilities do not demand a lot of his power so he can just spam them.
    And there is also Ice Cannon thing with the attacks you named. He knocked off Lyon with that one.
    2) And why in a world that should be compared to Elsa vs. Gray?
    Gray mostly uses? Absolutely not. This was reasonable before, but this is getting lengthy for little reason. From Rayule, to Lyon, to Jubia, he clearly attacks them at the start with clear intention of overwhelming them and in most cases succeeds such as freezing Fukurou's flames, freezing Rayule and exploding. Later on, he continues to do this! Sugarboy? Took him down with his Seven Sword attack. Then even look in Hidden, he didn't bother to "analyze" Nullpudding and attacked him immediately for no reason.
    1) Ice canon? Well, that would be funny if that's one of his strongest attacks. It's by all means strong at the start of the series, but I have no clue how he's going to match up to Mira with an attack she could easily dodge with Sitri.
    2) Because if it's a stomp against Erza, it's likely a stomp against Mirajane. Even if Erza is stronger than Mirajane, their power would be closer to when compared to the likes of Gray.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edelheld View Post
    Nice way of throwing hoeru and Schabrak off the Fairy Tail's fan base =)
    The author decides what's canon in his universe because it's his full creation. If the universe is widespread among many authors and the main author of the universe is dead or don't pay much attention to what is canon then the fan base decide what is canon. Just name one fictional universe in which fan base's word is heavier than author's in deciding canon. I doubt you can.
    Hey, don't blame him, you started it when you remembered Mira's attack from anime =)
    Spoiler: Off Topic show


    Anyway, thanks for also for doing this, despite being aware that it's off-topic. So I will not address the matter publicly outside of discussion over Mirajane's magical power in this thread. If you feel the need to reply, I'll message a reply to you if you're talking just off-topic stuff or reply in the anime thread so we don't get warned.
    Last edited by WilliamK; August 21, 2012 at 07:54 PM.
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