HSDK Chapter 487 Discussion / 488 Predictions

[Zatono]

Well the chapter has been out for a few days, any thoughts?

Personally I didn't like it...I agree that it's making Kisara out to be some kind of trophy for Ukita, who's likely about to get beaten into the ground.

But of course she'll accept Ukita anyway.

[Lectro Volpi]

I like Ukita and I am in for his development as a character but it's been 3 weeks already, let's wrap this up.

The focus for me was the Elder talking about Silcardo's death. I don't know about Saiga or Cyril but Agaard, Akira, Ogata (he is suspicious) and Sougetsu are unaware of Mikumo's schemes while the Elder thought of it as part of a plan. This makes Akira's match with Silcardo more than just some Deus Ex Machina for him as Mikumo planned it. Was Silcardo going to be for Mikumo like The Joker in Bane's scheme? Mikumo, being with Cyril the oldest member from Yami knows something about the Eternal Sunset that the younger ones (possibly Saiga included) don't know?

It appears as if the younger members from OSNF are ignorant about a lot of things as Akira seems to just deal with problems when they actually hit him, unknown to him that they had roots somewhere behind.

[kkck]

There is a particular thing akisame said which left me thinking.
http://www.mangareader.net/historys-...kenichi/487/14
The particular wording is disturbing to me. Drilling a hole through the wall called limit? Do we take this as is kenichi being so talentless that he already reached his actual natural limit of strength? Is this is the case then kenichi was really not built for martial arts considering he barely made it past disciple class. Then perhaps, this was the purpose of the disciple remodeling plan all along. This would be less than inspiring though, the situation would be that you can surpass your limits but only under the presumption that you have millions of dollars worth of training and 2 masters with secret knowledge of the human body which no one else has (basically, priceless knowledge). In turn it could perhaps be a device for kenichi to get an actual powerup within the short run. Kenichi's true fighting capacity was shown when he lost consciousness against kano. It was clearly a few levels above what he normally does. Perhaps this is the route so that kenichi can fight like that, using his true strength, all the time?

[aemal23]

There is a particular thing akisame said which left me thinking.
http://www.mangareader.net/historys-...kenichi/487/14
The particular wording is disturbing to me. Drilling a hole through the wall called limit? Do we take this as is kenichi being so talentless that he already reached his actual natural limit of strength? Is this is the case then kenichi was really not built for martial arts considering he barely made it past disciple class. Then perhaps, this was the purpose of the disciple remodeling plan all along. This would be less than inspiring though, the situation would be that you can surpass your limits but only under the presumption that you have millions of dollars worth of training and 2 masters with secret knowledge of the human body which no one else has (basically, priceless knowledge). In turn it could perhaps be a device for kenichi to get an actual powerup within the short run. Kenichi's true fighting capacity was shown when he lost consciousness against kano. It was clearly a few levels above what he normally does. Perhaps this is the route so that kenichi can fight like that, using his true strength, all the time?

I agree with you 100% . P:S; i think Ukita is going to died

[aegon-rokudo]

There is a particular thing akisame said which left me thinking.
http://www.mangareader.net/historys-...kenichi/487/14
The particular wording is disturbing to me. Drilling a hole through the wall called limit? Do we take this as is kenichi being so talentless that he already reached his actual natural limit of strength? Is this is the case then kenichi was really not built for martial arts considering he barely made it past disciple class. Then perhaps, this was the purpose of the disciple remodeling plan all along. This would be less than inspiring though, the situation would be that you can surpass your limits but only under the presumption that you have millions of dollars worth of training and 2 masters with secret knowledge of the human body which no one else has (basically, priceless knowledge). In turn it could perhaps be a device for kenichi to get an actual powerup within the short run. Kenichi's true fighting capacity was shown when he lost consciousness against kano. It was clearly a few levels above what he normally does. Perhaps this is the route so that kenichi can fight like that, using his true strength, all the time?

We already know that kenichi wasn't build for martial arts, it was stated several times in the manga. What akisame wanted to say is that even if kenichi will be blocked by the walls of his limits due to his body, if he continues to follow his master's training, he will able to big holes in those walls and go over them.
In my opinion this doesn't makes the thing "less inspiring", because it needs two fundamental factors. One is the training and the methods offered by his masters, and the other is his unbreakable will that made kenichi overcome the training several times. If kenichi trained alone, he would not be ever able to reach his level, and on the other side if his master didn't not have a disciple with such a will, they wouldn't have been able to apply such training and methods.

[kkck]

The fact that his masters are a requirement for kenichi to succeed is in itself uninspiring. Everything about what his masters are doing is far less than inspiring in fact. The training and methods given by his masters are by all intents and purposes invaluable from strictly monetary point of view. Akisame is easily a genius in anything he sets out to do. By all intents and purposes time is meaningless to him otherwise he simply wouldn't be flawless in the sheer amount of things he is. Heck, it would take a lifetime just to get good in one of the many things akisame does. Ma is not in the same league in that regard but he also violated every notion of time by becoming a master in all forms of kenpa and his knowledge of chinesse voodoo medicine that works. It should have taken a lifetime just to master a few aspects of either of those things. The elder is the absolute top of martial arts. Apachai, shigure and sasakaki while not on the same level of absurd as ma and akisame are still at the top of their respective martial arts forms. Its not like even yami has this level of training available either otherwise it wouldn't make sense that kenichi, being a talentless punk, would be a match for the overwhelmingly talented yomi. Yami does have some incredible stuff with them however if their training methods and knowledge base was actually a match or better than ryozampaku's then it wouldn't make sense that the geniuses who have been training their buts off since being children would lose to the talentless kenichi who was not made for martial arts. So basically what we have is that ryozampaku has a supply of precisely "1" and that is the only chance a talentless kid has to surpass himself. This is not inspirational at all, its not like ryozampaku is training a bunch of people. Kenichi needing his masters to that a degree and the actual impossibility of him doing something of his own merit is in itself an insult to every underdog ever. Kenichi didn't overcome his limitations by working hard himself, he managed to overcome his limits because he was OVERWHELMINGLY privileged and he got masters which literally no one else in the world can afford or get.

[ish3]

The fact that his masters are a requirement for kenichi to succeed is in itself uninspiring. Everything about what his masters are doing is far less than inspiring in fact. The training and methods given by his masters are by all intents and purposes invaluable from strictly monetary point of view. Akisame is easily a genius in anything he sets out to do. By all intents and purposes time is meaningless to him otherwise he simply wouldn't be flawless in the sheer amount of things he is. Heck, it would take a lifetime just to get good in one of the many things akisame does. Ma is not in the same league in that regard but he also violated every notion of time by becoming a master in all forms of kenpa and his knowledge of chinesse voodoo medicine that works. It should have taken a lifetime just to master a few aspects of either of those things. The elder is the absolute top of martial arts. Apachai, shigure and sasakaki while not on the same level of absurd as ma and akisame are still at the top of their respective martial arts forms. Its not like even yami has this level of training available either otherwise it wouldn't make sense that kenichi, being a talentless punk, would be a match for the overwhelmingly talented yomi. Yami does have some incredible stuff with them however if their training methods and knowledge base was actually a match or better than ryozampaku's then it wouldn't make sense that the geniuses who have been training their buts off since being children would lose to the talentless kenichi who was not made for martial arts. So basically what we have is that ryozampaku has a supply of precisely "1" and that is the only chance a talentless kid has to surpass himself. This is not inspirational at all, its not like ryozampaku is training a bunch of people. Kenichi needing his masters to that a degree and the actual impossibility of him doing something of his own merit is in itself an insult to every underdog ever. Kenichi didn't overcome his limitations by working hard himself, he managed to overcome his limits because he was OVERWHELMINGLY privileged and he got masters which literally no one else in the world can afford or get.

I agree with you in all points however have you truly read or seen martial arts training? In real life or story a disciple is always privileged to have a great master to teach him which they'd have trouble learning on their own time. That's why masters exist to teach what they learned and when the disciple learns all they can they make and develop their own style. The style of training they provide is completely torturing and inhumane. Even if you wanted to be a martial artist no normal human being would participate in it. I feel as a martial artist you'd need a lot of willpower and spirit to go through with it and have goals that surpass your fears beyond the norm. We can all become strong with discipline and diligence. Now they're exaggerated completely to some level but you get the point there will be results. Kenichi's talent is of someone who works hard. Some people are talented but don't work hard enough due to the fact they're gifted. Some say this is false but with hard work anything is possible. That includes body and mind. I'm not going to lie without the teachings of all the masters he'd probably have died by now. It would be their fault too so it's necessary.

[kkck]

Well, realistically speaking you would need a great master or at least a great role model to be good at anything you set out to do. Still, the fact that kenichi is falling towards mastery has the implication that he been ridden of a choice in the matter. Kenichi is definitely working hard however for him to get to mastery it is not a matter of him going the extra mile against all odds. It is strictly a matter of him just getting finished falling. He could metaphorically stop the fall however as long as he doesn't his success is basically guaranteed and implied(how is implied success within the context of the story inspirational?). Ultimately, this manga is about as inspiring as captain america. You got a golden heart but a weak body? magical Steroids which give you an implausible perfect body to match your already implausible perfect golder heart! You got a golden heart but weak body? Implausible masters who can't fail to make it impossible you fail! Of course, kenichi can still be potentially defeated by yomi but there is the consideration that most yomi have been training since they were little. If kenichi had started his training a year earlier he would be golden by now. Basically, kenichi is not fighting even his own limitations now, his masters are doing that for him. He is fighting time, in order to make up with his implausible training even by this manga's standards, which the other yomi have already put into their training. And we already know that akisame and ma are not bound by measly things like time. In the end, what can possibly be actually inspiring about this manga? Kenichi's success is implied and guaranteed by his masters. Whether kenichi wins or loses is not up to him, its about his masters(even you said it would be his master's fault if he died). For a story to be inspirational it should be a thing of will against the odds. The only odds that were ever against kenichi in this manga was meeting his masters (supply of precisely "1"in a world with 6 billion people) in order to get his magical foolproof training which spits in the face of time. And kenichi not only beat the shit out of those odds but anally rapes time every time he beats a yomi who has been getting insane training since being a child.

[BASED Shinigami]

Here are my thoughts

Kenichi needs his masters to help him overcome his limitations for the obvious reasons(talentless, no build for Martial arts), but I don't think we should undermine Kenichi's progression as a martial artist by saying he didn't surpass his own limits due to his work ethic. The very thought itself is quite disturbing and insulting to Kenichi's character. Kenichi has shown from the beginning that he will work as hard as need be to achieve the necessary results he desires. I don't find Kenichi relying on his masters to certain degree less inspirational because it's necessary if he wishes to get stronger. Yes, all his masters are geniuses by all intents and purposes, so he is overwhelmingly privileged. However, that doesn't mean things have ever been easy for Kenichi. At any given time in the manga Kenichi could of thrown in the towel, hung it up, and freed himself from all the harsh life threatening training his masters were giving him. No, instead he held on for dear life and endured it all. Training tirelessly day and night with little rest he endured because his work ethic propelled him to overcome his normal limitations. When his masters threw him into a dark cave, and left him there for several days to train alone in darkness he didn't breakdown his spirit didn't falter because he endured. After a hard day when his daily training was all done, and his body was supposedly dead physically he still had strength to practice the techniques he had learned earlier late at night. I could go on for days, but this is what I find inspirational his will power that enables him to work so hard is quite amazing. Privileged he may be, but that is not the sole reason he has been able to overcome his limits up to this point. In fact, if it wasn't for his amazing work ethic he wouldn't even be as strong as he is now even with all the training offered by his genius masters. Also, how can you compare a man how did nothing at all to gain his perfect body through magic serum to a man who has worked 24/7 to acquire every bit of strength he has now, and it still isn't enough to match all his adversaries. Captain America? please Whether Kenichi loses and wins his battles? IT'S COMPLETELY UP TO HIM. His masters have done all they can for him; they give him the best training and guidance the world has to offer. They can't fight his battles for him. It is Kenichi's full responsibility to take what he has learned from his masters and implement those teachings into battle. If he comes up short? It's definitely not his masters fault, but his alone.

[kkck]

Kenichi working hard is obviously important however that is not quite the issue here. The issue here is that it is by all intents and purposes actually impossible kenichi fails. The story is set so that merely working hard is enough for kenichi to have guaranteed success. His masters ensure kenichi cannot fail. His work ethic is necessary however in what world is it inspirational when someone with guaranteed success succeeds? I wouldn't hold it against such person (if anything, good for him) however saying it is inspirational is way off reality(and what inspirational actually means). More so, do we have any actual reason to think kenichi in fact works harder than his enemies or rivals? We have seen takeda train a few times for instance and it always seems every bit as hard as kenichi. Why would we assume takeda is working any less than kenichi? He has a passion and tenacity for martial arts which kenichi simply does not actually have (takeda would be more than willing to have a fight to test his strength against someone strong, kenichi would cower in fear and pull of a tactical retreat-which he did master on his own effort considering his master's training did not include that). At best the only difference would be that kenichi got lucky finding ryozampaku. Or what about tanimoto? What exactly do we have to assume he works any less than kenichi? At best he is only unlucky that his master is a vagrant and a drunk. Or even miu for that matter. Why exactly would we assume she works any less than everyone else(the elder already mentioned her training was being toned down so as to limit her increase in power)? Kano spent his entire childhood fighting other martial arts with his life and future on the line. Do we assume he trained any less hard than kenichi? In the end the only tangible difference between kenichi and the others is that he was privileged enough to be trained by ryozampaku. The deciding factor here is by no means his work ethic, it is the actually infallible plan his masters have for him. Kenichi in itself being in a fall towards mastery is uninspiring to the utmost extreme. Its not up to him or his work ethic, it is up to his masters.

[Buggy]

Guys, have you gone crazy? What's with the walls of text?

[aegon-rokudo]

Guys, have you gone crazy? What's with the walls of text?

Because internet is serious business.

kkck, I agree with your point, but I still think that kenichi's will-power plays an important factor in his achivements like ish3 and Blakreaper said. I also think that it is impossible to compare a manga with the real life, because someone like kenichi in the real world would not ever achieved such results

[BASED Shinigami]

Working hard should guarantee success for an individual most of the time even if you factor in the external factors in which that person has no control over. You said "merely" What else did you have in mind as a requirement for Kenichi to do to guarantee his success? Please elaborate because I don't have a clue. Furthermore, Kenichi does not have guaranteed success. In my opinion what success means to kenichi is surpassing Miu in strength and protecting her without Miu to having to lift a single finger in crisis time not becoming a strong master class fighter. That's his main ultimate goal for practicing martial arts and he's yet to accomplish that. You say the masters training and plan for him ensure him the success of becoming a master, but that was never his goal to begin with that's not the success Kenichi has in mind. Sure he'll become a master, but their plan does not guarantee him the success of surpassing Miu not at the rate she's going even you cant argue against that. Therefore, Kenichi does not have guaranteed success in my opinion meaning failure is very probable. Also, I wasn't trying to imply nor was I assuming Kenichi works harder than any of the other characters you mentioned. I find Kenichi's willpower/ work ethic towards becoming stronger inspirational because he has no business in martial arts; he's a brave soul without a shred of talent or build for fighting with no guaranteed success. I commend him for that. Anyway, becoming a master does not guarantee him success not unless he surpasses Miu. Yes, he'll no doubt will reach master class ( a little uninspiring I suppose) through their plan "the fall towards mastery" it doesn't matter. The masters cannot ensure he doesn't fail that matter is simply out of their hands. Kenichi can fail make no mistake about that regardless of his masters infallible plan or being privileged and it's completely on him.
It's been awhile since we had a good debate

Guys, have you gone crazy? What's with the walls of text?

Walls of text? give me a break lol just go look at the Naruto forums and you'll see what WALLS OF TEXT REALLY LOOK LIKE.

---------- Post added at 01:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:00 AM ----------

Ah yes! I forgot to give my thoughts on the chapter. Well, it sucked for the most part. The Ukita matter is something I'm not interested in, so I won't elaborate on that. The latter part of the chapter was good. I like seeing Kenichi training and suffering during the hardships. Hopefully, he'll be taught some new techniques soon maybe by the Elder who knows. That's everyone's wish!

[OcasoEterno04]

For kenichi to get to mastery he needs to dominate the power that he used against kano sho when he was unconscius, also he has to become strong enough to defeat any yami, and then if there's a timeskip he will have to become as strong as the one shadow. He will have to do lots and lots of training & lots and lots of battles before he can even think of sparing seriously with his masters, in other words this manga can get as long as hajime no ippo, or 800+ chapters, it has the material for that.

Now about another topic...do you think miu is gonna "die" in this arc? It would be awesome, watching kencihi going berserk would be amazing!

[BASED Shinigami]

For kenichi to get to mastery he needs to dominate the power that he used against kano sho when he was unconscius, also he has to become strong enough to defeat any yami, and then if there's a timeskip he will have to become as strong as the one shadow. He will have to do lots and lots of training & lots and lots of battles before he can even think of sparing seriously with his masters, in other words this manga can get as long as hajime no ippo, or 800+ chapters, it has the material for that.

Now about another topic...do you think miu is gonna "die" in this arc? It would be awesome, watching kencihi going berserk would be amazing!

Oh gosh I hope not! That would be too long for my taste. I don't know if Matsuena could our attention for that long. Also, this manga will likely end once Kenichi defeats all the yomi disciples and he's no longer a disciple.

No, Miu wont die anytime soon. First of all she's too strong to be beaten by anyone right now if anything people should be lucky she's not doing any killing. Also, as a main character her death in this arc would be so out of place; I don't think it would work plot wise. Furthermore, Kenichi wont let his gal die on his watch.