I'll address some of the issues people have surrounding "Tobi = Obito", but obviously there will be some I've missed, I'll come to them as you pose them to me. I am in no way an expert on Naruto, not in the slightest, but with a little sideways thinking, it's not too difficult to make everything fit.
I highly doubt I'll be able to find an answer which makes sense for everything, but I'll give it a go. If there are any inconsistencies, post below, and any questions/unanswered stuff, do the same. Again, I'm a simple bloke with a simple idea, don't go flaming me if I've got something wrong.
There are some assumptions along the way, but my whole theory stems from one very important assumption... And not an outlandish one at that.
"Tobi" is a set of ideals, a persona if you will, played by more than one character, 2 are specifically hinted at:
The Tobi we know and love has turned out to be Obito, which, in hindsight, was very obvious from his appearance. Using this logic, the same can be applied for the long haired Tobi as being Madara... Same persona, 2 different people.
It has already been stated, by Kishi himself, that "Tobi" and Madara knew one another and their relationship will be revealed, by Tobi, one can assume he means Obito... So let's talk of where their relationship could have stemmed.
Obito and Madara.
Assume Madara is alive at this point. His longevity is key.
Obito is buggered, stuck under a pile of rocks left and for dead. Zetsu, who's loyalty lies with "Tobi" (one can only assume the Madara-Tobi) , who claims "...I am the land itself", and loves to munch on bodies could have easily found and saved Obito from under that rubble. Having found he was of Uchiha decent, and with a luckily in-tact Sharingan, would have delivered him to Madara. Why? For Madara's wall of stolen Sharingans.
But how did they save his life? Simple. What did Madara steal which has remarkable healing properties and later allows for Rinnegan use in Uchihas? Harashimas cells of course!
But how can I claim Madara's been around so long? Remember the Image up there? That's from the time "Tobi" met Itachi, around the time of the Uchiha Massacre. For the purposes of my argument, he need not be alive after that conversation, which I will get to, but bear in mind throughout this that Madara's been alive until recently.
Why the change is Obitos ideals?
Again, more assumptions, but backed up with hard facts.
Obito was, in many respects, a pre-cursor to Naruto. Vying for recognition, wanting to become Hokage, trying to live up to Kakashi in the same way Naruto did Sasuke. There have been countless times where Naruto has reflected on how easy it would have been for him to go rogue like Sasuke, to go to the dark side and seek vengeance on Konoha... Obito is the living, breathing representation of this.
This is backed up by my earlier assumption that he was saved by Madara. One, if not the most infamous ninja to have ever lived could have easily warped and fashioned Obitos ideals into his own, in exactly the same way Iruka and Jiraiya did Naruto; "Konoha left you for dead, I saved you, I'll train you, I need you"... All that jazz. This would leave Obito with exactly the right amount of hate for Kakashi, Rin, Minato etc, to persuade him to attack Konoha.
Obitos Mangekyo Sharingan in 1-2 years.
How he achieved this is pretty much the only assumption I can't back up with hard facts, but there's a very easy way he could have achieve it... Kill your closest friend. He loved Rin, Rins departure is unexplained, 1+1=2.
He'd have known the raw facts from Madara... But that's about as far as I can go with this with nout to base it on.
Keep in mind, the "Tobi" Persona only works if the name behind the mask is Madara... Even if it is Obito. If it were only Obito from the get-go, no one would care.
Everything about the attack on Konoha could have been taught and guided by Madara from the side lines and performed by Obito. Madara would have known how to infiltrate Konoha, They wouldn't have been too hard to track and find, bearing in mind he can phase into anything and travel through it.
So, he kidnaps Naruto as a diversion, robs off with Kushina, Lets free a pissed off Kurama, Then gets roflstomed by Minato.
Seriously... People saying he "stood up" to Minato, did you really read their fight? He phased through him once, Minato teleported away from the chain, and the next attack was game over... There was no competition at all, "Tobi", or Obito, stood no chance what so ever. The only saving grace Obito had in that fight was is MS ability. That's it. He showed no other prowess except for being able to sneak in in the first place... Which his MS allowed him to do easily.
That is easily the level of a 14 year old Ninja with MS.
All of his dialogue throughout that period is accounted for by the "Tobi" persona, and the Madara lie which backs it up.
His reaction on talking about Izuna.
Chapter 339, Page 4, explained away easily by remembering the agony of having his eye removed to give to Kakashi... Add to that Obitos new found hatred of Konoha and its denizens, and you have a bit of a "clench my arm abruptly" situation.
Nagato and the Rinnegan
More speculation, but it fits. Eye transplants are a proven fact. Madara forming the Rinnegan as the final form of the Sharingan is told. I believe that Tobi did give Nagato his Rinnegan... Madara's Rinnegan to be precise.
But Madara must have been alive after giving Nagato the Rinnegan, so what about his eyes when he met Itachi later on in time? Eye transplants and a Sharingan back catalogue (which was shown when Sasuke had his surgery) help a lot to believe this.
What about his eyes when he's summoned with Edo Tensei? Itachi's eyes were taken from his body and transplanted into Sasuke... But his Edo Tensei body has the Sharingan all the same.
So, throughout the timeline, only one set of the Rinnegan need have ever existed, the one Madara created, one of which currently sits in the left eye socket of Obito.
From Madara's calm and collected response to Edo Tensei being cancelled and himself remaining, that was not simply "luck of the draw", he knew more about that Jutsu than even Kabuto did. He must have known that should be he summoned back to life, he could remain even after the Jutsu was cancelled. Which begs the question; Was being summoned back, and his prior death, all part of his plan?
What's the advantage to that? Immortality mainly. Not to mention the added advantage of having the Rinnegan for both himself and Obito, since only one set exists, but you keep the power once you're brought back to life.
Again, this is all obviously speculation on my part and for as much as I can, I've talked with hard evidence. If anyone has anything to add, please do below. I'll back up my argument as best I can, but remember, I'm just a man, Not Kishi.
That means Madara killed many Uchihas to get their eyes or stole the eyes of Uchihas, which died during a mission? Wouldn't the Uchiha Clan be suspicious of Clan members getting lost or corpses without their eyes?
I mean... look at that wall. We don't even see the complete wall and there are 108 Sharingans, which means 54 dead Uchihas. I think it's far more likely that these are all Sharingans from the Uchiha massacre.
But let us assume that the wall existed before the Uchiha massacre. Why didn't Zetsu just take the Sharingan from Obitos?
If Madara really wanted warriors, he could have recruited full fledged Uchihas who were against the village. This was before Obitos "death".
It's always like that... plot hole? --> fill it with Hashiramas cells!
Not only that, controlling the Kyuubi with a 3 tomoe Sharingan, mastering Kamui and getting hit by the fastest Ninja, because of a split second is not something an average 14 years old Ninja with MS could do, who never was praised a genius/talented ninja.
you know... you are saying that you can make things fit , but i'm telling you just cant
nagato got the rinnegan years and years before obito died. which means it's impossible for madara to have saved obito unless you think he was going arround blind
not OP, but I'll answer a bit of these.
There's a certain value to the boy that, as far as everyone else knows, doesn't even exist. It's very convenient for Madara, who himself was thought to be dead by everyone else. There's also the possibility that he knew Obito would have Kamui, because he's Madara Uchiha and he knows a lot of shit. (like, it's not too far fetched that he has a basic idea of how sharingan techniques are genetically passed down. seeing as how sasuke/itachi have Susano'o, it's possible that he knew someone with Kamui and he knew that Obito would inherit it.)Quote:
Acknowledgement is taken much more seriously than loneliness in Naruto. Naruto's depressed because no one acknowledges him. Sasuke's depressed because his dad/brother didn't acknowledge him. Sakura's depressed because Sasuke doesn't acknowledge her. Gaara was depressed because no one acknowledged him. Haku/Kimimaro were depressed because no one acknowledged them, and this desire to be acknowledged was so serious that they were willing to be other people's tools, just for those people's acknowledgement. Kakashi (was) depressed because his dad was seen as worthless (i.e. not acknowledged for his value.)Quote:
It could even easily be argued that people like Deidara wanted acknowledgement from Itachi/Sasuke.
The point is, Naruto characters are very likely to see themselves as valuable only if other people see them as valuable, and sometimes these people are very specific. Sasuke would have only been happy if his dad saw him as valuable, he doesn't care about what all the other academy kids think. Later on as a Genin, he didn't care what they all thought because he knew Itachi still thought he was shit. His desire to be acknowledged was the exact thing that made him conflicted.
And it's the same for Sakura/Naruto/whatever. It's not always related to loneliness, it's about other people accepting that there is value in your existence, that is the most important theme in Naruto, and it's something that Obito didn't really get enough of.
So yes, I do think lack of acknowledgment is a big conflict in the Narutoverse. It's the biggest conflict, really. The only one that counts.
Yeah, I'll give you that one. He does need to explain, and that's not really something anyone can explain right now.Quote:
I have news for you, Rock Lee went from not being able to do anything to being Rock motherfucking Lee in basically the same amount of time.Quote:
Naruto was the worst at clones and mastered Shadow Clones in the space of one day, and he mastered the Rasengan in ~two weeks as well.
Were either of these praised as geniuses? No, because being a genius doesn't mean shit in the Narutoverse. It's all about hard work.
And we don't really have any reason to believe Obito isn't a genius, anyway. Characters appearing talentless and discovering that their growth rate is extremely fast happens all the time, that's the only reason Naruto caught up with Sasuke. The less talented you are, the faster the growth rate.
I understand that all of these examples aren't people that went from genin level to Minato level, but Obito had pretty much the strongest living ninja as his teacher, and KAMUI. 99% of what he did in the fight was kamui regardless, all he really needed was to unlock it and then train it a bit so he gets how it works. Madara is also the leading researcher in the field of "How to turn Kurama into your bitch," so I also think he could've taught him that.
I guess we just disagree on this, but I trust Madara's ability to turn Obito into Tobi in that time frame. Even if he didn't, there's still the possibility that the Tobi that fought Minato was Madara. Or at least Madara was the one really controlling the Kyuubi? Anything could be the case at this point, Kishi has yet to explain what happened. I understand if you're unsatisfied with nothing being explained right now and you want to think it's bad writing, but I still think there's reason to wait. It's not that impossible or contradictory like people make it out to be.
My main reason for believing this is because I'm assuming Madara counted on Obito to bring him back. If Madara knows his life is in the hands of someone, he is going to make that person into a god, and I trust Madara's ability to do this. I just think that if Madara absolutely had to transform Obito that quickly, he would pull it off.
Yeah, fair point, I don't know what he meant when he said that.Quote:
Okay, I'm sure it can't fit at all, that's why the author of a billion yen franchise is choosing to go through this path.Quote:
Do you guys really think he's that much of an idiot? If he didn't have a way to back up his guns, he wouldn't write it.
Last edited by DoctorApollo; August 31, 2012 at 12:51 PM.
i've actually been wondering this as well
for someone with so much access to bodily modification tech and so much relevant tissue, orochimaru the person seeking to have all the jutsu in the world... couldn't bloody implant himself with hashirama? the chakra boost alone would be epic
or maybe he already has, which is why he could use rebirth so much
he could also get a sharingan ... he had helped danzou who has 10+ sharingans , i'm just wondering why he didnt just take one for himself ...especially for someone who wants an uchiha body which means he will have to confront an uchiha at some point
anyway , i think mister kishi has created a huge world that not even he can link everything perfectly ...thats fine for me , as long as he doesnt fu** the ending
ofc...one piece is a masterpiece
Perhaps he knows that you need to have Uchicha (or possibly senju) DNA for the implant to be 100% successful. Thats why he wants Sasuke's body, a young Uchiha which he can implant the cells into and gain the Rinnegan.
As for the theory I also thought that it could be a possibility that Madara was the original Tobi and that Obito took over once Madara had died.
I believe that anything Obito said while he was claiming to be Madara was in fact actually something that Madara did. Madara implanted the Rinnegan into Nagato and had planned for Nagato to revive him after his death.
However once Obito took over the role of Tobi he was able to trick Nagato into thinking Madara was still alive and therefore the actual Madara was not revived. Obito then used Madara's name and reputation to carry out his own plans.
As for the fight with the Fourth, I also agree that it was no contest. The only reason Minato had to go full force was because of Kamui and not Obito himself. The risks of Minato getting caught by that technique were too great given the nine tails attacking Konoha.
It's far more likely that Madara/Tobi/Obito got those Sharingans after the Uchiha massacre. We know that Danzou and Tobi were involved in this incident. They probably shared the eyes of the dead Uchihas and Danzou made sure that nobody noticed it. Danzou held a high position in the village, he had all the power to do this. That makes far more sense (in my opinion of course) than the Uchihas not noticing that someone is killing their clan members/stealing Sharingans.
Which means that in my view Madara never had all those Sharingans before the Uchiha incident and he was never collecting Sharingans. So Narvos statement that Zetsu took Obito and gave him to Madara for his Sharingan collection falls off (once more, in my opinion).
About Madaras apprentice:
There were already Uchihas who wanted to rebel against the village before Obito was even born. Why didn't he take one of them as an apprentice? Why did he decide to take Obito, a half crushed kid with only one Sharingan under his wings? He always had the option to recruite Uchihas, who are grown up with full advanced Sharingans.
Why would he knew that Obitos Sharingan has so much potential? Because Obito was a below average ninja without any impressive skill?
Besides there was never an acknowledgment problem between him and Itachi, I don't even know where you got that. Even after the massacre Sasukes wanted to kill the person who murdered the ones Sasuke loved. Acknowledgment is completely out of place here.
Gaara witnessed almost the same things like Naruto. You only mentioned the acknowledgment criterion, but it's the whole package I listed in my previous post.
I don't want to go in detail with the other characters you mentioned, because my point is that Obito and Narutos character are alike, but their life/past seems completely different (until now). There a lot of things (not only acknowledgment) which could have turned Naruto to the other path. Right now Obito wasn't acknowledged, that's all and that's in my opinion not enough to turn into one of the most evil villains in this manga.
Naruto is like I said earlier a bad example, because of his main character status. He will become the strongest, he will always suprise everyone (the reader and the characters in the manga), he will achieve his goals.
It was never stated before that Obito was a talented ninja. And from what we saw in the manga, he really wasn't special, not even average if we compare him to the current Chuunins.
Shisui -> one of the most talented Uchihas
Itachi -> prodigy
Sasuke -> was praised enough by many characters
Kakashi -> not an Uchiha, but he got the MS and improved his MS skills during the story and Kakashi was a genius before he got the Sharingan
Madara & Izuna-> were said to be gifted even amongst the Clan
All Sharingan "experts" were praised as gifted, talented and so on. It's not like you can manipulate Amaterasu flames, because you have MS. You need to be talented for that and Sasukes talent lies in ninjutsu. The same with Tsukuyomi. Itachi is extremely talented in Genjutsu and that's the reason why he can manipulate the time in his Tsukuyomi world. MS doesn't simply give you these thing (not talking about Madaras perfect Susanoo), you have to be talented enough to utilize such feats.
Obito never showed any impressive feats in Ninjutsu, Genjutsu or Taijutsu. Overall he was just a random, (below) average ninja. That's why I can't agree that someone made him a master with the Sharingan and MS.
Just to clear things, I don't dislike Obito. In fact I really like him.
The one who was fighting Minato and controlling Kyuubi was Tobi with short hairs and Kamui. So it's unlikely that it was Madara himself. Aside from that it also can't be that Tobi (Obito) was fighting Minato while Madara was controlling the Kyuubi, because when Minato used the contract-breaking-seal on Tobi (Obito), Kyuubi really regained control over himself.
I'm not unsatisfied, because Kishi didn't explain everything. I'm unsatisfied, because I think there is no logical explanation for everything regarding Tobi=Obito. I just hope it's just Obitos body, but the chances are low. Even if this is the case (Tobi=just Obitos body, not Obito himself), there are still many things of which I think can't be explained, but it's far more better to accept than Obito himself.
Last edited by syx; August 31, 2012 at 07:36 PM.
1. You didn't account for the height difference. According to the data Obito was 154.2cm and during the battle with with minato obito is 175.0 cm. 20 centimeters of growth in a year is bullshit if you ask me. Grow spurt or not, it doesn't seem plausible.
2. Kisame saw the "tobi" controlling the mizukage, (the one which you say is madara). When tobi met kisame he showed him his face and recognized him as madara....
This is confusing as hell. And I know that genjutsu would be the easy way out, but why take off the mask and show your face in the first place. He could've left his mask on and genjutsu'd kisame to make him think he was madara. And in case, you wanna say that the long haired madara might have never taken off his mask, if that's true, again why would tobi take of his mask if kisame wouldn't recognize him anyway.
3. Obito claims HE was the one who gave nagato the rinnegan. This makes no sense seeing nagato had his rinnegan way before Obito even came into the picture. If it was madara who gave him the eyes, how did he do it? The moment he popped out that second eye, he was blind. Surgery while blind seems like a stretch to me. Also why would he give his rinnegan to nagato that early on? He lived for another what, 9 years.
The thing that bothers me is, if madara meant for nagato to revive him, why didn't nagato know madara at all? Madara had 9 years to mentor nagato, but they never met after madara supposedly gave him the rinnegan. Nagato, doens't seem to know him seeing he acknowledges obito as madara. Why would madara give nagato his rinnegan and just leave him if this is the kid that is supposed to bring you back to life. Madara could not have foreseen that obito would come into the picture. It seems a bit plotholish to me if you ask me.
4. Itachi met (according to you) the real madara. Itachi spotted madara, (who was supposed to be dead long a go), in a crowd with so many uchiha's all the while nobody would ever even consider the idea of madara still being alive. He then proceeds to make deals with him afterward, but he makes sure sasuke's sharingan triggers when he sees obito's sharingan? I mean how did itachi fuck that up...
Last edited by scandalous'; August 31, 2012 at 05:01 PM.
The reason it works is pretty simple. Naruto has shown (like hundreds of other mangas and video games) that history repeats itself. The most recent example of this would be Kingdom Hearts.