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Translations: Gintama 515 (2)
After hogyoku transformed Aizen, his reiatsu was no longer felt by shinigami and he became transcendental. Ichigo, after dangai training, presumably reached an even higher state of transcendentality. Ginjou said merging his shinigami powers with fullbring would result in a transcendental state for Ichigo.
Is Ichigo still transcendental? Was Ichigo actually transcendental after dangai training or did his bankai allow him to compress all his reiatsu? Can a shinigami reach transcendentality if he becomes one with his zanpakuto? Could Gin's bankai kill Aizen if it weren't for hogyoku, can a shinigami or hollow take down a transcendental being with enough force? Inoue was unable to feel Kirge's reiatsu after he released his complete holy form, did it have anything to do with transcendentality?
Discuss everything regarding transcendentality in this thread.
I think the transcendent bit ginjo talked about was contextually different from what aizen and ichigo had going on before and it is more of a matter of the actual translation. At least I think that part is as simple as shinigami + fullbring > shinigami.
As for kirge it is simply a matter of his volstandig. Due to how volstandig works it does not emit actual reiatsu. He was in no way using transcendental powers of any sort. Being unable to feel power is the only natural result of taking the whole "absorbing power to fight" thing the quincy have going on when taken to the extreme.
For me this are the more important pages around the whole transcendental thing.
The whole transcendental thing is mostly about having a form of power which is inherently superior and incomprehensible to ordinary beings who hold standard issue reiatsu. In this particular case the ordinary beings are any and all shinigami regardless of how powerful, all arrancar, all vizard and basically any being we have seen which exists naturally (except ichigo although he is by definition a special existence of sorts). As far as the manga has care to explain transcendental beings have transcendental reiatsu and the best way to explain how interactions between reiatsu and transcendental reiatsu is a not very clear comparison between dimensions. Aizen made the point that just as a two dimensional being cannot interact with a three dimensional being (the three dimensional being would simply exist and move at a level incomprehensible to the 2 dimensional one) normal reiatsu cannot interfere with transcendental reiatsu. That has some pretty severe implications in the manga.
The manga has already explained that battles are battles of reiatsu. Even kenpachi understood that in a clash of reiatsu it was the weaker one that would get pushed back. So when we have the transcendental reiatsu against normal reiatsu the situation what is happening is that 2 reiatsu clashing while having the normal reiatsu being physically unable to actually interfere with the transcendental one. Using the dimensions example the manga gave the transcendental reiatsu would simply advance and mess with the normal reiatsu in ways the normal reiatsu can neither move nor normally affect. In context it is entirely possible that transcendetal reiatsu cannot even be measured or understood in terms of quantities as regular reiatsu as it would already move, exist and have an effect on different dimensions or perhaps even levels of existence or whatnot.
The most common debate here is what this would mean in a fight against the likes of yama. Ichigo vs aizen? Aizen vs yamamoto? I would argue a fight between aizen and yamamoto would go basically the same way the fight between aizen and ichigo went. Even though ichigo's and aizen's bodies can be physically hurt, their power is simply something entirely different. Was there ever an actual clash of reiatsu between aizen and ichigo in which aizen was simply not brushed off? Ichigo got rid off aizen's kido with a wave of his hand and when aizen was about to use his circle of energy thingy ichigo yet against brushed it away with no effort whatsoever. It was a matter of aizen being simply unable to interfere with ichigo's power. Yamamoto is but an ordinary tri-dimensional shinigami and the result of fighting either of them in their transcendental stages would have the same result. To further put it in context, urahara's kido did not have an effect on aizen until he started losing his seemingly transcendental power. It was only when urahara's shinigami kido could affect aizen and his power that it took effect. Of course, we also have to take into consideration that ichigo's and aizen's bodies were about as tridimensional as always and thus could be made physical contact with. Their bodies could be hurt but only provided their guard was not properly up and thus did not use their reiatsu to properly defend.
so the only thing we can really say for sure, what we can conclude out of the facts we've been given is that Ichigo's level of Transcendentality is FAR superior to Aizens
this could mean a few things, it could simply mean that your level, the kind of power you wield etc....depends on who you yourself are and there is no SET level...other than the fact that its simply incomprehensible to regular (standard) reiatsu wielding individuals
it could also mean that a natural evolution to Transcendentality is vastly superior to a 'manufactured' version (which we'd have to classify Aizen's version in)
and finally the other thing we know for sure based on the facts we've received is that we DONT know what Yama-ji full power is, that means everything else is speculation, based on what we DO kno from Yama-ji if there were another person in this dimension who is most likely to have achieved said level of Transcendentality (based on what we know about his life, training, experience, being alive for multiple thousands of years, thus his level of mastery of everything including and ultimately his likely almost perfect one-ness with his Zan) then yes he would probably be the #1 candidate to have a achieved such a thing especially since essentially the basis of what it means to be Transcendental is ONE-NESS with all parts of the self....who would have had the most time to do such a thing if not Yama-ji
so i'm not saying he IS a Transcendental being i'm saying all those things indicate that its foolish for us to assume anything about a person like that
Last edited by SaitoSpike; September 03, 2012 at 04:07 PM.
I don't think we should infer anything in particular regarding someone who is naturally transcendental and someone who is artificially so. The orb worked by granting wishes that were plausible for the user. In this particular regard there are many other perfectly plausible explanations as for why ichigo ended up being superior to aizen. Maybe aizen just couldn't ask for the proper wish, maybe he didn't want that level of transience, maybe the orb took him to his actual limit and he couldn't get further. For all we know the orb could potentially take someone else to the level ichigo had. In the end we just don't know what the limitations of the orb were, there are plenty other things which could have gone on.
As for yamamoto, I think it would be unreasonable for us to assume he has any form of transcendental power. His reiatsu has never been said to have any sort of special characteristic outside of it being exceptionally powerful. There is nothing in the manga that suggests yamamoto has power which defies reason or any limitation any shinigami would ordinarily have. Take the train situation with aizen. Its not merely aizen having acquired the volume of power required to do that. What has been said about the train is that it literally cannot be affected by reiatsu. Gin called it a thing of reason, not reiatsu. In this regard, affecting it is not a matter of volume of reiatsu either. No captain would be able to do a thing to it including yamamoto because yamamoto uses simply ordinary shinigami reiatsu. Yamamoto being the strongest shinigami does not make him anything other than shinigami. The fact that yamamoto's reaitsu can be felt by anyone is enough indication that yamamoto regardless of how strong is an ordinary shinigami.
As for ichigo, I doubt his transcendental form was the result of final getsuga tensho. I would argue that the fact that he activated final getsuga tensho AFTER the fight started is more than enough proof of this. Ichigo was transcendental before using the technique, we saw that specifically when he arrived to FKT and had an overwhelming advantage over aizen. Ichigo basically got more from his dangai training than just a new technique. Perhaps the 3 months he spent with zangetsu and being able to get past his emotional issues (we saw the water which covered the world disappearing) was enough for ichigo to grab a hold of his true power.
damn i had written a longer reply but it got erased by accident
anyways my whole point was that there is no reason to put a cap on Yama's abilities because we dont know what he has achieved in the past, simply saying he only uses regular reiatsu currently doesnt prove anything, the 2 Transcendental beings we saw were very different from each other....despite that you're not supposed to even be able to feel these beings, the kids in Karakura were able to feel it, condensed or not they couldnt fathom Ichigo's version
as for Yama not exuding any sort of Transcendental power, the fact is you wouldnt know the current helpless Ichigo who's trapped in kirge's ball of whatever, was someone who ever reached such a level, no trace of that version is left....
we dont have a main definition of what it means to be such a being, but we do know that it requires one to be at the highest possible peak of ONE-NESS...a full fusion.....the person who seems to have had the most time, the most qualification to reach that over his VERY long life is Yama-ji...but at the same time thats ALL i'm saying
all that is to say THUS its unfair to put any sort of cap on what he is capable of doing....we already know none of the ppl around have even seen his full power...they were jus saying they've never even seen him angry let alone full abilities, this is someone who demonstrated he could easily perform any forbidden techniques....i can't imagine why its reasonable to put a cap on him 'simply because we have not seen it'
i'm not saying we assume he is one, i'm saying whats the basis on assuming he's never reached such a level or isnt aware as to how to do so, one might argue that since Ichigo's was condensed it should be safe to do so and heck maybe even he would have had the time to figure out how to KEEP that level, but Ichigo's Transcendental form was still in accordance to his bankai....which simply condenses all his allround ability into his body and augments them all, yet thats Ichigo alone....Aizen's version on the other hand he couldnt really control and ppl were disintegrating by coming near him, so then someone with Yama-ji's Zan that might be like a walking sun, so yes you would never see him utilize such a level (just a scenario)
meh i mean i'd be surprised if Yama were to be one, but i'm saying i dont get why ppl seem to think they know what his limits are....i've put all those points out about what we know about him and nothing indicates that we should assume to know his limits
---------- Post added at 07:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:21 PM ----------
i do agree about Ichigo tho, i think Final GT is indeed separate from the Transcendental form he ended up reaching, for example maybe if Isshin were to have done the training he might have just come out with the final GT, but not that form (and thus probably way less powerful)
but yeah as for Yama i jus dont get why limit him, even the Soul King has kept him in charge for this long while plucking others from his army and every single one of the most badest of Bad in Bleach all seemed basically scared of his power, whether its Aizen or Juha 2 incredibly powerful individuals....its safe to say the only thing we can say about Yama is that we'll see.....or maybe we wont since his Bankai is supposed to be getting sealed...
i'd love to watch a movie all on his life thats probably quite a life lived...
It seems someone needs to fuse with his zanpakuto to be transcendental, Aizen pointed that out when he was fighting Ichigo. Aizen took a shortcut to acquire said power by using hogyoku, Ichigo trained hard to reach same state. We know that Ichigo is a special being, possibly because of the influence of the orb, I think the reasonable assumption in this situation is that it's not possible for an ordinary shinigami, hollow or quincy to become transcendental without interacting with hogyoku. That said, I don't rule out the possibility that extraordinarily strong people can achieve transcendentality with enough training, I don't think the manga suggests otherwise.
Ichigo became very strong just before he fought Aizen, it's not out of the realm of possibilities that he'll surpass that power at the end of the manga, this is common shonen logic. If Juha Bach is the big bad of this final arc and Ichigo needs even more power to defeat him, it means Juha Bach himself should have achieved transcendentality. Either that or he doesn't need transcendental reiatsu to show off more impressive feats than transcendental beings. If Yamamoto is at Juha Bach's level or stronger, it means he may accomplish the same feats.
Yamamoto was unconscious while Aizen was fighting Isshin, Urahara and Yoruichi, we don't know whether he could sense Aizen's reiatsu or not. We didn't see Ichigo's shikai state after dangai training, it's possible that he had transcendental reiatsu only in bankai state. Consequently, Yamamoto may be able to fuse with his zanpakuto and have transcendental state with his bankai. The same reasoning is also valid for Juha Bach, I don't know how it'll work if he doesn't have a zanpakuto though. Perhaps combining shinigami and quincy powers is the key to transcendentality and this is why Juha Bach is that powerful. If Ichigo has quincy abilities, it explains how he has access to same degree of power.
Currently I tend to believe Yamamoto or Juha Bach aren't transcendental beings. I wonder how Ichigo's fight with Juha Bach will be more exciting and dramatic if Juha Bach is nowhere as strong as Aizen's evolutionary forms though. This will probably be the final fight in the manga and I guess we can expect unbelievable demonstrations of power. This is why I withhold my judgment until I can figure out where Kubo is going with this.
I have two theories regarding this:
Ichigo's Bankai compresses his reiatsu and boost his speed/power. dDuring the dangai training, Ichigo not only learned how to perform FGT, but also unleashed more of his Bankai power, the power to compress reiatsu. Remember that Ichigo's Bankai was still very immature, it has a lot of potential to be stronger, and it did through the training. It was able to compress more reiatsu to the point of zero, immensely boosting speed and physical power.
The catalyst to make it even more powerful is the fact that at that point, Ichigo has absorbed Zangetsu and his hollow power, thus increased his reiatsu many folds. IF my theory is right, his Bankai was powerful enough to compress all of those reiatsu and create a being who's strength is equivalent to a transcendentalist, although not being one.
The second theory, is almost the same with the first theory, but I've excluded the Bankai's ability part. The main idea is that Ichigo at that time has absorbed his vastlord hollow power along with Zangetsu's power, making his already enormous reiatsu double/triple, thus making him a transcendental state.
I think that both of my theories are applicable. But again, the concept of transcendentality is very vague, what are the criteria? Is it all just about having enormous reiatsu?? or is it about the ability to control/manipulate reiatsu to the fullest?? Is it absolute that a transcendental being's reiatsu can't be felt by others? Until we can clarify those points, we can't really assume anything.
Back to Yamo, Shunsui said that he has transcendental reiatsu, was he just implying that it's strong?? Or did he really means it. What about his Bankai? Byakuya said that a Bankai increase the user's power at least 5-10 times. So can 5-10 Yamo combined considered a transcendental being??
so if aizen thought he was transcendal (wtf is this word) then ichigo was aswell , because his bankai wouldnt allow him to trash aizen just because it compresses his reatsu
2- gin would have killed aizen ...he blew away his chest , it was just hte hogyoku that regenerated aizen (i think at that part he wasnt transcendental , altho he was halfway through it)
3- i dont think any shinigami can kill a transcendental being , even if he is asleep and soi fon attacks him twice it would have no effect since battles in bleach are battles of reatsu
4-no comment about kirge ...he looks like a captain level and half or so ~~ not even on par with ichigo who fought gin (but would beat him probably since ichigo is lame 99% of time and being emo)
EDIT: i like kkck example of urahara's kido ... it was unable to interfere with aizen's reatsu as long as the hogyoku was lending him power . but the moment he lost that transcendentality (or half transcendentality since ichigo might be the only one to reach true state) the kido activated
as an example , i think that kido would have sealed yamamoto on the spot ... he might even be 5* captain level class (i'm probably ultra-exagerating since he would be like *3 captain level) but it's still in the captains dimension (that would ofc make the transcendental dimension is another level)
Last edited by tousendrinksbleach; September 04, 2012 at 07:50 AM.
To be honest I find the idea that you can train to become transcendental rather odd. On one hand, we have not actually seen that. Ichigo was born special and objectively better and aizen used the orb to reach such a state. On the other the hand the idea itself is borderline bizarre. Being a transcendental so far has been said to have the implication of surpassing the power or lesser beings and being able to exceed physics from the normal world (the kototsu bit).
Just to put it into perspective, take a look into hollowification. Is it possible to actually train to become a vizard or whatever tousen was? Of course not, you are born a shinigami and you stay one. Hollowification experiments were made by aizen and urahara because it is not something which could be attained by training or sheer force of will. Even mere hollowification (as aizen called it) can only be attained by extremely exceptional circumstances and it results in a different yet still of this world power. If becoming half hollow is already that difficult then becoming a transcendental should it itself be a significantly more difficult. At least human souls can be either shinigami or hollows to begin with. Perhaps what we saw with the orb actually suggests this. Aizen as we saw with wonderweiss could instantly shinigamify an arrancar. In turn his transcendental transformation took all the time he had the orb in him which would have been since before the FKT war even started.
At least in context I would think training to become a transcendental would be about as useless as me training to travel in time and become another specie altogether. No matter what sort of training I undergo I will remain a human and unable to travel in time.
I agree that in this respect it's a bit far-fetched to think transcendentality is something that can be attained by training. I believe it's somewhat different from hollowification though in the sense that it requires one to fuse with his zanpakuto, the requirements that allow such a change remain to be seen. To draw a parallel, Ichigo achieved transcendental state after three months of training just like he achieved bankai in two days, I wonder if transcendental state is the ultimate state of shinigami. We know that only a few shinigami can achieve bankai, what if fusing with zanpakuto is as rare among those who have bankai and requires thousands of years of training. It would mean that only 3-4 people in the long history of SS could reach the said state.
I'm just exploring the possibility though, I agree that Ichigo's special status had something to do with the power he attained, and Yamamoto and Juha Bach are most likely not transcendental beings. The only thing that confuses me is Juha Bach's final villain status which suggests he'll give a tough time to Ichigo who will be even more powerful than after dangai training. This is an assumption though and Ichigo may never reach that level of power again but this is almost always the case in shonen and if it comes true, it means we'll see more transcendental beings for power levels to make sense.
Totally agree with the statement that transcendental state can't be achieved through mere training. The two confirmed transcendental beings we've known up until now were all special cases. I also agree with the statement that one must fuse with his/her zanpaktou to be a transcendental being.
For Yamo, he's possibly the only pure shinigami that might achieve transcendental state naturally. Why? the only answer is because of his millennium knowledge and training. But once again, nothing can be judged yet, the only thing we know for sure is that he has reached the peak of his shinigami strength and is the current strongest pure shinigami. But it is unknown whether he has attempted to break that barrier through hollowfication (extremely unlikely) or zanpaktou fusion (bit less unlikely).
so really its not disproven that regular abilities have no effect on transcendental beings(if u have the right amount of power or the right specific ability), if they didnt then the HG should have detected Urahara's kido and removed it prior.....Athe HG only removed Aizen from transcendentality when it realized that his body could no longer be used....whether harmed or unharmed....
at least thats what i got out of it
---------- Post added at 01:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:48 PM ----------
we need more detail on the requirements....but even when we do get them it shouldnt be possible to train for it in an Ichigo time frame....absolutely ridiculous
---------- Post added at 02:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:52 PM ----------
actually there can be a level of training that can apply to transcendentiality, if one assumes that its something similar to Budhism, than yes training your mind to reach a higher level of consciousness would require SOME practice....so the training aspec isnt completely crazy after all
Well, the issue here is that the moment yamamoto, a perfectly ordinary shinigami, can achieve any form or context of transcendentalism then it means any shinigami potentially can get there. Obviously not any shinigami is as old as he is but the issue at hand is that those aren't traits inherent to yamamoto, they would be traits acquirable to anyone who bothers to live that long and train that long. The moment something like that is in any context or form vaguely plausible we are immediately talking about transcendentality being something acquirable to any shinigami through training.
As for the sword fusion, we know less about that than even transcendental powers itself. It could be a trigger to transcendent power while it also could be the result of transcendent power. There is also the consideration that hollowification would not break the barrier to transcendent powers. Hybrid powers are not in themselves transcendent. They merely provide an additional set of powers, stronger reiatsu and perhaps a stronger body however the powers provided can still be felt by normal beings. The only interesting case in this regard would perhaps be ulquiorra who ishida said had some weird reiatsu although even in that case he would not actually qualify as any form of transcendental. A hybrid in concept would be indeed stronger than a shinigami however it is still merely a collection of ordinary powers. To be honest I would even question if zampakuto fusion (as we saw with kyoka suigetsu and tensa zangetsu in their owners hands) would be achievable to shinigami through any form of training. The first thing to consider is that even aizen had no clue about that until he saw ichigo and himself with the swords like that. How would other shinigami know about that? It is also too much of a coincidence that two non shinigami would happen to have something of the sort for it to be a coincidence, I doubt it is an learnable trait at all. FGT was irrelevant to the whole thing. Even if ichigo did fuse with his sword during the technique we know for a fact that FGT is merely an actual technique of the zampakuto, nothing else.
also we have no idea what urahara was plotting with ichigo ... he was clearly pulling the strings since day one
I want to reemphasize that I don't think Kubo will take that route and make Yamamoto or other shinigami transcendental beings but for the sake of brainstorming, I'll offer a couple of ideas for consideration.
The common traits of Ichigo and Aizen were that they both had more than twice the amount of captain class reiatsu, the manga specifically mentioned it for both characters. Aizen said hogyoku couldn't grant wishes that were beyond someone's power, in that sense we can say a character like Ikkaku would never achieve transcendentality no matter how long he trained, with or without the orb. If captain class reiatsu and decades of training are required for bankai, can it be that twice the amount of captain class reiatsu and hundreds or thousands of years are required for perfect harmony with zanpakuto and transcendentality?
SaitoSpike gave an example regarding transcendentality and Buddhism. Nirvana in Buddhism is some sort of transcendentality, it's characterized by transcendental knowledge and happiness. Enlightment is reached after a lengthy period of committed spiritual practice, which may correspond to hundreds or thousands of years for a shinigami who has a long lifespan. Considering that Kubo and many other mangaka borrow heavily from Eastern religions, I wonder if Kubo had such thoughts in mind when he introduced this concept.
If Yamamoto didn't tell anyone, Aizen or other captains wouldn't know such a state did exist. Even though it doesn't fit perfectly, it seems to me that transcendentality can be explained by the logic of the manga without creating a plot hole. I really hope Kubo won't ditch the concept and will actually elaborate on it at some point. I find it hard to believe that this whole idea was only for Ichigo vs Aizen fight but we can't rule out this possibility. There're many fans who never want to see it again though, perhaps it affects Kubo's decision about it.