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Thread: The Concept of "Transcendentality"

  1. #16
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: The Concept of "Transcendentality"

    Well, seeing the manga it does seem like transcendetality was something which aizen came up with rather recently. If anything I got the impression that he didn't know about it until he got the orb on himself. As far as we know aizen seemed to have been going for hollowification for quite some time. His research seemed to have been based on that to a great degree. Aizen could have lied about that (as he was prone to doing) but based on what we saw it didn't seem like he knew about being transcendental until he got the orb on himself and realized the true extent of the power the orb had.

    I think we will deal with this whole thing by the end of the manga. Ultimately the manga is going to revolve around the king and the role he fulfills in the universe IMO. The king seems to have something like a holding reality together role. In this regard the power of the king (whether the king is an it or a he) is bound to also be also transcendental in some form. In this regard there being other transcendental beings is bound to be relevant. Perhaps ichigo will have to use his transcendental power to keep the world together, perhaps to become the king or perhaps to challenge the king. For the time being it wouldn't make sense to bring the form back. As ichigo is now it is already hard enough for him to have a proper enemy as we already have seen what sort of powerups he is prone to and what can happen when he is defeated. Making him transcendental in the near future would basically equate the unilateral defeat of vanderreich taking into consideration that even aizen with a lower form of power could already defy physics and logic with his power.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member SaitoSpike's Avatar
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    Re: The Concept of "Transcendentality"

    @Miyagi, yeah i agree on that its not that i want Yama-ji to be one at all either nor do i feel like it should be something thats accessible to all....the only thing i was trying to say is that when it comes to Yama-ji its all question marks.....and even if the chances of him being a Transcendental being or having achieved such a state at one point were 0.01 than of the ppl we know in the shinigami world its likely Yama-ji would fit the bill......so even that lil possibility is what creates my defense for never putting a cap on what Yama can or can't do simply until we actually see it....its not that i think he's at that level but rather he's a guy whom u can't even assume he COULDNT be at that level so that alone means he can never be counted out....

    but yes we definetly need a better explanation for the true meaning of Transcendentiality, if one exists

    ---------- Post added at 06:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:03 PM ----------

    my personal opinion is that this scenario is not enough to bring back this form.....based on the power we saw Ichigo and even to a lesser degree Aizen...that power they were wielding....based on that it makes no sense for the king to have required all this planning.....i think this form will only come into play once the royal guard makes their intentions known and when/if we delve further into that

    and imo that all depends on how long Kubo really means when he said this would be a long final arc...

    to be honnest i'm still not convinced Juha Bachis the final enemy......so far his whole war seems too personal.....

    i have many reasons to believe thiis, but specifically the fact that its technically 2 sets of good guys who are fighting it out in the end....to me is VERY odd and would be very very odd to have as the final.....i mean so what if the Shinigami win? does that mean all that they do/have done becomes justified?

    there's something else waiting to shock us i think, i might be overthinking it tho
    Last edited by SaitoSpike; September 04, 2012 at 05:11 PM.

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    Re: The Concept of "Transcendentality"

    I was thinking about Aizen's transformations and I guess this is the thread for it so...

    I always had a bit of a problem with the fact that his Hogyoku-awakened powers were kind of ill-defined. I mean, it was called 'evolution' and that's all. So I've been wondering what the nature of his 'transcendent' powers were, and I've got a little theory.

    So, when the Hogyoku began working on him, he was wrapped in a cocoon-like form, and his restructuring started taking place inside. Then, the cocoon crumbled from around his face, revealing a slightly altered form. I think this form was incomplete, though, and eventually the cocoon would have fallen away completely - but the whole process was disrupted by Gin. He 'killed' Aizen, who then came back in his new Butterflaizen form. In this form, he claims to have transcended the realms of Hollow and Shinigami, but I wonder if this is accurate. Aizen states that his transformation was brought on through the fear of death that took hold after what Gin did to him - sounds a lot like how Hollows are born, right? It's notable that the hole in his chest remained, too.

    As Baraggan tells Soifon, each Espada represents one of the ten aspects of death:
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...9-page-16.html
    Basically, every death relates to one of these, and every Hollow is born of an aspect.

    So, When Gin killed him, Aizen was consumed by despair, and brought to a new transformation. I think at this point, the natural course of his evolution was disrupted, and he began becoming more Hollow-like.

    Later, after being manhandled by Ichigo, the Hogyoku caused a new transformation. I think what happened is that it read the strongest feelings at work in Aizen's heart, and adjusted his evolution accordingly. His final form had not one, but three Hollow holes, which I always found weird. Perhaps after finding himself outclassed by Ichigo, he was consumed by two feelings; anger and madness. Maybe because his transformation was destabilised by Gin, the Hogylku started reacting to his feelings, and he kept mutating into more Hollow-like forms. By the end of it, he was a walking avatar of despair, rage, and madness.

    Basically, I'm wondering if Aizen's evolution was thrown off course by Gin 'killing' him. Eh, just a thought I had.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member dex's Avatar
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    Re: The Concept of "Transcendentality"

    @ NoOneInParticular
    maybe...coz after being stabbed by gin aizen transformation was more on hollow side (hole , mask and weird physical form)...before it he was looking like a evolved shinigami (normal human like form)...after he lost power he turned back to normal form right before he was sealed...

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    Re: The Concept of "Transcendentality"

    Good thread.

    Now, i think the best of all my questions is when comes the top of training and when is necessary trascend?
    Also, i read about the Hogyoku is some kind of Zampakuto, be a tool that can recognize his wielder and make true his wishes, it's fit that kind of ability. Plus, how Shinigami obtain them? There's a plothole that i don't remember that has been explained.

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    Re: The Concept of "Transcendentality"

    The way I see it, when reiatsu's of different nature fuse together, they create a hybrid reiatsu. This is transcendent reiatsu.

    Fullbring + Shinigami = Transcendent but not on the Dangai/Hougyoku level
    Zanpakuto + Shinigami = Highly transcendent reiatsu
    Add Hollow to the above and you get Ichigo's advantage over Aizen I guess.
    It's interesting that Aizen was able to damage Ichigo when he went Hollow-mode.

    Also adding Quincy reiatsu in there, that should make Ichigo transcend to a whole different level. Assuming it didn't already help him before this arc -- Bach said it was just now awakened.

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    Re: The Concept of "Transcendentality"

    Quote Originally Posted by Notak View Post
    The way I see it, when reiatsu's of different nature fuse together, they create a hybrid reiatsu. This is transcendent reiatsu.

    Fullbring + Shinigami = Transcendent but not on the Dangai/Hougyoku level
    Zanpakuto + Shinigami = Highly transcendent reiatsu
    Add Hollow to the above and you get Ichigo's advantage over Aizen I guess.
    It's interesting that Aizen was able to damage Ichigo when he went Hollow-mode.

    Also adding Quincy reiatsu in there, that should make Ichigo transcend to a whole different level. Assuming it didn't already help him before this arc -- Bach said it was just now awakened.
    Zanpakuto+ Shinigami doesn't make sense. I mean, it gives you a hell of a boost, but Zanpakuto is a part of Shinigami's soul. Total control over your soul and power, that's shinigami's limit. Aizen was hollowfied when fighting Ichigo, he shot Cero (else, what would you call it? Light beam? xD) and had 3 holes. The thing about Ichigo is, he is human and shinigami, so he can obtain human's powers just as he can obtain souls' powers. He can have Quincy and Fullbring powers, just as he can have Hollow and Shinigami powers.

    Ichigo's advantage was in him being human, I guess. They both were beyond Shinigami and Hollow, obtained perfect soul balance. Ichigo still had human (Quincy) up in his sleeve. Maybe it gave him a boost in reiatsu, I don't know. Aizen said himself, Ichigo must have been in higher tier.
    Last edited by Duniak; November 03, 2012 at 05:45 AM.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Notak's Avatar
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    Re: The Concept of "Transcendentality"

    Yeah that hybrid status of his probably had a lot to do with it.

    Also, I think a Zanpakuto and a inner Hollow are sort of the same thing, they are both born from a person's soul right? And both can be used as tools for a soul, but it's when they fuse into one being that things get dangerous.
    I always thought that a Zanpakuto has its own reiatsu while a shinigami also has his own basic reiatsu.

    This begs the question if Bach will turn out to be a transcendent as well?

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    Re: The Concept of "Transcendentality"

    Quote Originally Posted by Notak View Post
    Also, I think a Zanpakuto and a inner Hollow are sort of the same thing, they are both born from a person's soul right? And both can be used as tools for a soul, but it's when they fuse into one being that things get dangerous.
    I always thought that a Zanpakuto has its own reiatsu while a shinigami also has his own basic reiatsu.

    This begs the question if Bach will turn out to be a transcendent as well?
    I don't think Zanpakuto and Hollow are the same thing. Shinigami and Hollow are the same thing, just opposite. Zanpakuto reflects soul's potential (it is basically a part of soul), it doesn't GIVE reiatsu. It somehow unlocks reiatsu, that is not used.

    Bach has to be transcendent. Else, he wouldn't stand a chance against Ichigonator. Quincies seem to be VERY strong. Add Shinigami's zanpakuto to that (Juha's sword has colours like Zanpakuto), add Yamaji's bankai and we have someone 2-dimensional I think.

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    Re: The Concept of "Transcendentality"

    Quote Originally Posted by Notak View Post
    The way I see it, when reiatsu's of different nature fuse together, they create a hybrid reiatsu. This is transcendent reiatsu.

    Fullbring + Shinigami = Transcendent but not on the Dangai/Hougyoku level
    Zanpakuto + Shinigami = Highly transcendent reiatsu
    Add Hollow to the above and you get Ichigo's advantage over Aizen I guess.
    It's interesting that Aizen was able to damage Ichigo when he went Hollow-mode.

    Also adding Quincy reiatsu in there, that should make Ichigo transcend to a whole different level. Assuming it didn't already help him before this arc -- Bach said it was just now awakened.
    Arrancar and Vaizards both have two forms of reiatsu fused together, and they weren't transcendent. Well, in the Vaizard's case it might be more accurate to say they have two types of reiatsu 'stacked' on top of each other, since their Hollow and Shinigami powers seem independent of one another. But with Arrancar, their Shinigami potential is unlocked and actually mixes with their existing Hollow power, giving them Hollow powers with a Shinigami-like form, so I'd say they do have fused Hollow and Shini powers, yet they aren't the same as Aizen and Ichigo were.

    'Transcendent' seems to be fundamentally different from all other forms of spirit power. Maybe there's no such thing as a 'type' of Transcendent power, only uniquely evolved beings, if you see what I mean.

    Also, I think Zanpakuto + Shinigami isn't necessarily transcendent on it's own. Maybe it's just the next logical step up from bankai. Perhaps the reason joining with Zangetsu made Ichigo transcendent was because his Hollow power was added to the mix. That still doesn't exactly make sense though, since it should just make him a hyper-advanced hybrid...
    I don't know, it never made perfect sense to me that Ichigo advanced to a new dimension of being simply by mastering the FGT and balancing his Hollow and Shinigami sides. Maybe when we learn the truth behind his bloodline it will become clearer?

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Notak's Avatar
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    Re: The Concept of "Transcendentality"

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    I don't think Zanpakuto and Hollow are the same thing. Shinigami and Hollow are the same thing, just opposite. Zanpakuto reflects soul's potential (it is basically a part of soul), it doesn't GIVE reiatsu. It somehow unlocks reiatsu, that is not used.

    Bach has to be transcendent. Else, he wouldn't stand a chance against Ichigonator. Quincies seem to be VERY strong. Add Shinigami's zanpakuto to that (Juha's sword has colours like Zanpakuto), add Yamaji's bankai and we have someone 2-dimensional I think.
    Could be. The Zan is born from a Shinigami's soul, but it seems to kinda be a separate being too. Just like the inner Hollow, except that one is "evil" and the other not.
    Atleast they come from the same soul, like how Tensa Zangetsu and Hollow Ichi claimed to have been one from the beginning.

    About Bach, I thought about that too, but if you look closely you can see Bambietta wielding a sword like that too.
    If there is that kind of transcendence in Bach, then I wonder if his subordinates possess power like that too?

    Quote Originally Posted by NoOneInParticular View Post
    Arrancar and Vaizards both have two forms of reiatsu fused together, and they weren't transcendent. Well, in the Vaizard's case it might be more accurate to say they have two types of reiatsu 'stacked' on top of each other, since their Hollow and Shinigami powers seem independent of one another. But with Arrancar, their Shinigami potential is unlocked and actually mixes with their existing Hollow power, giving them Hollow powers with a Shinigami-like form, so I'd say they do have fused Hollow and Shini powers, yet they aren't the same as Aizen and Ichigo were.

    'Transcendent' seems to be fundamentally different from all other forms of spirit power. Maybe there's no such thing as a 'type' of Transcendent power, only uniquely evolved beings, if you see what I mean.

    Also, I think Zanpakuto + Shinigami isn't necessarily transcendent on it's own. Maybe it's just the next logical step up from bankai. Perhaps the reason joining with Zangetsu made Ichigo transcendent was because his Hollow power was added to the mix. That still doesn't exactly make sense though, since it should just make him a hyper-advanced hybrid...
    I don't know, it never made perfect sense to me that Ichigo advanced to a new dimension of being simply by mastering the FGT and balancing his Hollow and Shinigami sides. Maybe when we learn the truth behind his bloodline it will become clearer?
    Maybe it's safe to say that Arrancar are more like semi-hybrids...and the stronger ones are more successful hybrids. I mean look at the top Espada and Wonderweiss, they're stronger than captain-level.

    And yeah I hope we get some things cleared up about the FGT.
    Last edited by Notak; November 06, 2012 at 04:00 AM.

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    Re: The Concept of "Transcendentality"

    Quote Originally Posted by Notak View Post
    Could be. The Zan is born from a Shinigami's soul, but it seems to kinda be a separate being too. Just like the inner Hollow, except that one is "evil" and the other not.
    Atleast they come from the same soul, like how Tensa Zangetsu and Hollow Ichi claimed to have been one from the beginning.

    Zanpakuto is born with a Shinigami. In Ichigo's hollow's case it's different. Hollow was born because he got his shinigami powers after becoming a Hollow and beating the shit outta him. That's why Hollow and Zangetsu were one from the beggining. But still, Ichigo IS a special case.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member cracker's Avatar
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    Re: The Concept of "Transcendentality"

    Without the jewel Aizen would have been as dead as dirt against Gin. Which is the main point I want to drive home, being "Transcendant" does not automatically make you invulnerable to damage from a low tier being. We've seen it happen time and time again in Bleach, weaker characters killing stronger ones due to openings etc Rukia
    Vs A. A, Tousen vs 69 (lol)...

    I believe Bankai Yama could fight Transcended Aizen, kill him too if he let his guard down... Honestly I'd favour Yama... More impressive techniques lol

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    Re: The Concept of "Transcendentality"

    Quote Originally Posted by cracker View Post
    Without the jewel Aizen would have been as dead as dirt against Gin. Which is the main point I want to drive home, being "Transcendant" does not automatically make you invulnerable to damage from a low tier being. We've seen it happen time and time again in Bleach, weaker characters killing stronger ones due to openings etc Rukia
    Vs A. A, Tousen vs 69 (lol)...

    I believe Bankai Yama could fight Transcended Aizen, kill him too if he let his guard down... Honestly I'd favour Yama... More impressive techniques lol
    Well, the thing about transcendent Aizen is that he's only that way because of the Hogyoku. You can't really separate the two. Without the Hogyoku, Aizen would indeed have been killed by Gin's attack, but even without it being fused to his chest, Aizen was still restored. Hell, Ichigo split him right down the middle, and he still regenerated. You're right in saying being all-powerful doesn't make you invullnerable, which is how Gin practically killed Aizen, but I would guess that the only way to truly kill him would be to utterly eradicate both his body and the Hogyoku, and I don't know if anyone can pull that off, because the Hogyoku seems to be indestructible.

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    Re: The Concept of "Transcendentality"

    Quote Originally Posted by NoOneInParticular View Post
    Well, the thing about transcendent Aizen is that he's only that way because of the Hogyoku. You can't really separate the two. Without the Hogyoku, Aizen would indeed have been killed by Gin's attack, but even without it being fused to his chest, Aizen was still restored. Hell, Ichigo split him right down the middle, and he still regenerated. You're right in saying being all-powerful doesn't make you invullnerable, which is how Gin practically killed Aizen, but I would guess that the only way to truly kill him would be to utterly eradicate both his body and the Hogyoku, and I don't know if anyone can pull that off, because the Hogyoku seems to be indestructible.
    I think you need to look at the images again http://www.mangapanda.com/94-57630-6...apter-421.html Aizen was utterly eradicated. He just has a regeneration greater than DBZ cell.

    Also Gin caught Aizen when he purposely lowered his reiatsu for Ichigo's friends & the rest of the humans to feel. Gin's banaki would have being destroyed the same way Aizen destroyed the dangai Kōryū.

    The context of the manga & how characters are portrayed is far more important than concentrating on petty quantities like how hot or how cold a character is.
    For one no one here can give a legitimate reason as to why Yama is even stronger than normal Aizen talkless of his Hogyuku form which surpasses all his shinigami powers.

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