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Thread: The Concept of "Transcendentality"

  1. #31
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: The Concept of "Transcendentality"

    Well, transcendental beings so far do have physical bodies which can in fact be hurt. That is why ichigo took some seemingly minor damage from aizen and aizen was cut by gin and ichigo. The issue is not quite there though, the issue would be in the reiatsu part which is not quite as obvious. The transcendental thing so far begins and ends there and it depends on how two reiatsu's of a different kind interact. While aizen and ichigo could be physically hurt, the scenario we have to consider is how their reiatsus could interact and how they would interact with other's reiatsu based on what we know. Take aizen vs ichigo. Ichigo stopped aizen's blade with his bare hands and destroyed the equivalent to a black hole with a wave of his zampakuto and did a similar thing to aizen's ring thing. In any scenario, ichigo easily blew off aizen's reiatsu when he cared to properly defend himself. Aizen was in a place higher than shinigami so the scenario would have likely been the same if he was faced by them. Ultimately nothing of what urahara and co did ultimately caused long term damage. Gin didn't particularly do better in that regard, the difference was that rather than simple stabs or explosions he used actual poison which melts away cells which as far as we know is not something which you can quite suppress with reiatsu.

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  3. #32
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member NoOneInParticular's Avatar
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    Re: The Concept of "Transcendentality"

    I suppose Aizen became an entirely different kind of being from Ichigo. Whilst they both functioned in the same way most spiritual beings do, using reiatsu for attack and defence, Aizen's bond with the Hogyoku gave him a different edge. He seemed to be relying less on using his power to protect himself, because he was convinced no one could touch him. Even when they did, he had his regenerative properties to fall back on. Ichigo was more 'traditional', in that he prevented damage with sheer spiritual power. When Aizen went Hollow-thing mode, he became strong enough to bypass Ichigo's natural defences, until Ichigo used the FGT. So what I'm saying is that Ichigo's transformation seems to be entirely reiatsu-based, whereas Aizen's body was physically altered as well.

  4. #33
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Notak's Avatar
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    Re: The Concept of "Transcendentality"

    I always assumed Ichigo's perfect fusion of hollow and zanpakuto (and his hybrid status) was the reason he had an edge over Aizen.
    Aizen at first in Butterfly-form seemed to be just a shinigami but at the highest level, and then his hollow side kicked in, but I don't think he completely fused with it. He never became one with it like Ichigo did, instead it was like it controlled him and made him a monster.

    Like someone said before -- a transformation based on fear, not on self-control.

    Aizen also "cheated" his way to power with the hougyoku, whereas Ichigo did it the natural way


    Who knows, if Ichigo learns to absorb reishi around him, maybe he could do huge Getsugas or FGTs without losing his powers. That'd be like the Spirit Bomb from DBZ though, maybe not such a good idea.
    Last edited by Notak; November 20, 2012 at 08:30 AM.

  5. #34
    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner
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    Re: The Concept of "Transcendentality"

    Aizen dream was to become a transcendent being,remember his expertiments in the past with hollow and hollowfication,and also he stated himself on soul society arc that not matter how much hard you train as a shinigami,you will eventually hit a wall,a limit that you cant pass.Aizen eventually became a transcendental being thanks to the help of hougyoku,making him get hollow powers(more inclined to them) and a pseudo sword final form,he also kept ichigo alive so he could reach that "state"(Gin helped him in the end.)

    Now comes Ichigo.He got his transcedental form naturally,in fact he posses both shinigami and hallow power,but he couldnt use them at start and he was immature and had a weak heart.Before the training with zangetsu,he only could use just a part of his power,in fact he still didnt master fully his shinigami bankai and also he couldnt fully use his hollow powers,he had to limit them with the mask(the mask drawn only just a little % of his hallow power,that why when he full released them against ulquiorra he had an unconsious state and went berserk.After finally the training,he learned how to control and utilize fully his shinigami and hollow power(both are the true and real from of zangetsu)and reaching the final shinigami form, and then zangetsu himself explained to him how to use Mugetsu.
    Able to finally utilize his full power ichigo became transcendental,he was stronger than aizen firstly because he gained his power naturally and second because aizen missed the "human part",in fact humans themself got their own reiatsu/power,that why aizen does the comparison with the 2nd and 3rd dimensional being(Aizen his shinigami+hollow,ichigo is human+hollow+shinigami).

    My question is now,why didnt ichigo retain his final/transcedent form?im assuming that he just using some borrowed limited/reiatsu fused with his fullbring and still didnt regain his own powers,utilizing a fake bankai,in fact he didnt talk with zangetsu yet.Well many things dont make sense in tite kubo story,like chars power level or strange facts,like why didnt isshin and urahara use bankai against aizen.


    PS. dont confuse ability/special powers with reiatsu,yamamoto had a strong ability but he wasnt a transcedent being and had huge reiatsu like ichigo or aizen.Ability/special power is something different,like hirako shinji has a power that noone can beat in 1 vs 1(only aizen sword power),but that doesnt mean he got higher power or reiatsu,barragan power/ability can kill anyone,but he wasnt the first/zero espada because his reiatsu was lower than stark or yammi.yammi had the highest reiatsu but that dosnt mean he was the strongest. Sometimes reiatsu>ability(like soifong couldnt hit aizen) and sometimes ability>reiatsu.

    fell free to post your opinions.
    Peace

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  7. #35
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Notak's Avatar
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    Re: The Concept of "Transcendentality"

    ^I actually wonder if Ichigo's bankai is going to look like Tensa Zangetsu fused with Hollow Ichi? You know, half-hollow helmet, one horn, bankai with fur on the edges/outlinings.
    Maybe Ichigo will finally reach this form.

    And yes, just because a power causes damage in a large area for example, doesn't mean it's the most powerful one. It just means it's an area attack.
    Aizen's blue Cero-thing was smaller than Ulquiorra's Lanza, but I bet it did 10x the damage
    Last edited by Notak; November 21, 2012 at 05:44 PM.

  8. #36
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Lee.J.Baxter's Avatar
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    Re: The Concept of "Transcendentality"

    IMO "transcendentality" in Bleach is the process of a being emerging that's an entirely different species from Humans, Shinigami, Hollows or Quincies. All non-transcendental beings are either one of these types or a mixture thereof;
    • Vizard/Arrancar = Shinigami + Hollow
    • FullBring = Human + Hollow
    • Bount (even though non-canon) = Human + Shinigami (modified)
    • Ichigo = Quincy + Shinigami + Hollow

    Aizen had, in his words, "broken free" of any of these races; he evolved into something that was a being in its own right. Ichigo had, at one point, become something that was more than just part-Shinigami, part-Hollow too (I'm still not sure when this was). I don't think a transcendent being is necessarily more powerful than any other race though, although such a being created by the Hougyoko is perhaps crafted to utilise the soul's core powers to their absolute potential.
    Last edited by Lee.J.Baxter; November 28, 2012 at 03:48 AM.
    Predictions
    • Quincies become latent Shinigami when they die, meaning Yhwach is the progenitor of the Shinigami too.
    • The star and name "Quincy" refers to the 5 Royal Guards and the Soul King; this originates in Yhwach wanting to overthrow him.
    • The final battle within the Seireitei will be between Zaraki and Haschwalth.

  9. #37
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member DraMas26's Avatar
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    Re: The Concept of "Transcendentality"

    So how would you guys explain this:

    http://www.mangapanda.com/94-57474-1...apter-420.html

    and this:

    http://www.mangapanda.com/94-57322-1...apter-419.html

    Aizen claims that Ichigos on a higher dimension than him yet he still burns Ichigo's arm. In the first link he says that a lower dimensional being cannot interfere with a higher dimensional being unless the higher dimensional being lowers his reiatsu down. So pretty much Aizen is saying a lower dimensional being cannot hurt a higher dimensional being unless the higher dimensional being lets them. However Aizen is apparently on a lower dimension than Ichigo and he still burns his arm. Does this mean Aizen is contradicting himself or doesn't know what he's talking about?

  10. #38
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Schabrak's Avatar
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    Re: The Concept of "Transcendentality"

    That means that Aiizen has transcended to his own view of reality. Or they were simply not that far away from each other, while Ichigo simply broke the barrier. We will have to wait for a proper explanation later on.
    Firm but Fair

  11. #39
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member NoOneInParticular's Avatar
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    Re: The Concept of "Transcendentality"

    Quote Originally Posted by DraMas26 View Post
    So how would you guys explain this:

    http://www.mangapanda.com/94-57474-1...apter-420.html

    and this:

    http://www.mangapanda.com/94-57322-1...apter-419.html

    Aizen claims that Ichigos on a higher dimension than him yet he still burns Ichigo's arm. In the first link he says that a lower dimensional being cannot interfere with a higher dimensional being unless the higher dimensional being lowers his reiatsu down. So pretty much Aizen is saying a lower dimensional being cannot hurt a higher dimensional being unless the higher dimensional being lets them. However Aizen is apparently on a lower dimension than Ichigo and he still burns his arm. Does this mean Aizen is contradicting himself or doesn't know what he's talking about?
    Well, it seems that Aizen was intending to deal Ichigo more damage than that, so Ichigo being stronger definitely allowed him to limit the damage, but transcendent beings aren't invincible by any means. Look at what Gin, a simple Shinigami, did to Aizen a few chapters beforehand. Like anyone else, transcendent beings have physical bodies that can be harmed by someone strong enough. I don't think Ichigo was limiting his power, since Aizen still couldn't feel it (or at least he never said he could), so it was probably just a matter of Aizen being powerful enough to damage Ichigo, if only a little.

    It's hard to say how much we can take from Aizen's assertions at that point, really. It's not like he or anyone else had had experience with dealing with powers of that level before, so he might well have just been hypothesizing, and on top of that he was clearly drunk on his newfound powers.

  12. #40
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Notak's Avatar
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    Re: The Concept of "Transcendentality"

    Quote Originally Posted by DraMas26 View Post
    So how would you guys explain this:

    http://www.mangapanda.com/94-57474-1...apter-420.html

    and this:

    http://www.mangapanda.com/94-57322-1...apter-419.html

    Aizen claims that Ichigos on a higher dimension than him yet he still burns Ichigo's arm. In the first link he says that a lower dimensional being cannot interfere with a higher dimensional being unless the higher dimensional being lowers his reiatsu down. So pretty much Aizen is saying a lower dimensional being cannot hurt a higher dimensional being unless the higher dimensional being lets them. However Aizen is apparently on a lower dimension than Ichigo and he still burns his arm. Does this mean Aizen is contradicting himself or doesn't know what he's talking about?
    I guess Aizen's last evolution was enough of an upgrade to get near Ichigo's level.

  13. #41
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    Re: The Concept of "Transcendentality"

    Well, transcendental shit is boring. Damn, reading poems and writing essays about transcendetality is enough for me.

    Aizen was talking about transcendentality when he was Hollow+Shinigami as Ichigo. Then he only meant his power. Ichigo was PERFECT hybrid, Aizen wasn't. We could easily see that he was closer to damn strong Hollow. Ichigo achieved harmony and had both powers perfectly balanced. Ichigo wasn't "three-dimensional". Aizen didn't mean next form fused in him, just power. Transcendental-shit-wise, they were in the SAME dimension. Power-wise, Ichigo was FAR above.

    So yes, Aizen COULD wound him, because they were BOTH in the same dimension. But Ichigo could mop the floor with him, because he was perfectly fused.

  14. #42
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member NoOneInParticular's Avatar
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    Re: The Concept of "Transcendentality"

    Yeah, Ichigo reached his peak by achieving some kind of perfect balance/fusion of his Hollow and Shinigami powers. I'm also inclined to think that contrary to Aizen's claims of "transcending" Shinigami and Hollow, he was actually just becoming some kind of mega-Hollow hybrid.

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