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Thread: Shin Prince of Tennis Chapter 87 Discussion/Predicitions

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    Shin Prince of Tennis Chapter 87 Discussion/Predicitions

    Chapter 87 RAW

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    Re: Shin Prince of Tennis Chapter 87 Discussion/Predicitions

    @Airgrimes, since the thread seem to already close.

    Ochi and Mouri were mention as "double specialist". I don't see any mention on that about no 7 and 8. So I'll assume 9 and 10 to have better coordination, actually. So, according to you, no 9-10 have better overall skill. AND from this, I'll assume they also have better coordination. That sounds like they should be rank higher to me. Of course, they are not rank higher. So one of these have to be wrong. So unless you have something that shows 7-8 coordination is better, I'll go with what the manga say. Thanks. So, because of that, I'll assume no 7-8 to have a better skill. Your turn to prove something?

    If Kimijima negotiated his way up to here, no 8-20 and all HS 2nd stringer are simply stupid. He deserved that status then. I don't think he did.

    On Tachibana and Chitose. They do not count as a pair in the national that year. They are not in the same team. Unless you want to suggest to me Oishi/Kikumaru can beat Sanada/Atobe or something. My point is that Chitose and Tachibana are both high tier characters. And they got beat. And Oishi beat someone who stomp the team that beat them. I really don't see how you fail to give him some credits for that. 3rd Court Pair can syncho. I also think it's not unreasonable to assume they are stronger than the golden pair at the start of Shin.
    Most of the thing I post is probably assumption if it's not a fact that I support using some evidence from the manga.

    If you knows you're on my ignore list and you quote my post, there's high chance I would ignore you. Or answer you and not look at your response.

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    Re: Shin Prince of Tennis Chapter 87 Discussion/Predicitions

    So, next month, Kite will aim for Tohno?

    I don't know why is this happening, why Kite is following Kimijima's orders, why he negotiates with him. The only reason might be facing a higher rank.

    Marui's ability to dodge balls from behind is impressive also, but he can't do anything right now as Tohno and Kite are aiming for him, I just think Kite will go for Tohno next month and they'll make a comeback, or the negotiation goes on and they lose.

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    Re: Shin Prince of Tennis Chapter 87 Discussion/Predicitions

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    @Airgrimes, since the thread seem to already close.

    Ochi and Mouri were mention as "double specialist". I don't see any mention on that about no 7 and 8. So I'll assume 9 and 10 to have better coordination, actually. So, according to you, no 9-10 have better overall skill. AND from this, I'll assume they also have better coordination. That sounds like they should be rank higher to me. Of course, they are not rank higher. So one of these have to be wrong. So unless you have something that shows 7-8 coordination is better, I'll go with what the manga say. Thanks. So, because of that, I'll assume no 7-8 to have a better skill. Your turn to prove something?
    It could mean Mouri works better with Ochi than anybody else and together they are not better than Tohno/Kimijima fine.
    But HOW does this prove either Tohno or Kimijima are better than Ochi?
    Individually, Konomi hasn't shown whether or not No. 8 is better than No.9.

    It's like Taira/Hara pair and Mutsu/Mutsu. Can we guarantee Taira would lose to either of the Mutsu's in Singles??
    Nope.

    The manga doesn't say that individually Tohno and Kimijima are better than Ochi so...

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    If Kimijima negotiated his way up to here, no 8-20 and all HS 2nd stringer are simply stupid. He deserved that status then. I don't think he did.
    Your right he probably didn't negotiate his way up there.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    On Tachibana and Chitose. They do not count as a pair in the national that year. They are not in the same team. Unless you want to suggest to me Oishi/Kikumaru can beat Sanada/Atobe or something. My point is that Chitose and Tachibana are both high tier characters. And they got beat. And Oishi beat someone who stomp the team that beat them.
    Surely your not using the theory of strong Singles players must be better than weaker singles players in doubles when Synchro is involved.

    Golden Pair VS Sanada/Atobe?? Both Sanada and Atobe would kill Tachibana and Chitose lol.
    Sanada/Atobe would kick the ass of a lot of pairs right now. Maybe every pair.
    Invalid example.

    Chitose has Kamikakushi, a more than returnable shot when in Doubles. Abare Dama, will be returnable after a while especially if the opponents have shared vision in Synchro.
    We can count Tachibana/Chitose as an MS pair though. And even if they were in the Nationals, you telling me they could have beaten Golden Pair with Synchro?
    Golden Pair are the only MS pair who can compete with Doubles opponents who in Singles would kick their ass.
    Whether they are a Nationals pair or not, Tachibana/Chitose are not better than Oishi/Kikumaru.

    Also, Washio/Suzuki only won 7-6 against them, so we knew that they couldn't necessarily be amazing.
    I don't know how you feel Golden Pair, Washio/Suzuki and Wings of Kyushu are all one level.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    I really don't see how you fail to give him some credits for that. 3rd Court Pair can syncho. I also think it's not unreasonable to assume they are stronger than the golden pair at the start of Shin.
    Why would you assume Washio/Suzuki who went 7-6 with WoK who hadn't paired for over a year would beat Golden Pair?
    No Acrobatic Play, No Seal Step, No Special techniques at all, No Oishi Territory, I don't know man, I never once thought that Washio/Suzuki would bt Golden Pair after I saw their match.

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    Re: Shin Prince of Tennis Chapter 87 Discussion/Predicitions

    I think that Kimijima is negotiating with Kite a spot in the top 10, cause he does not like the Tohno style, so, Kite need to aim Tohno to had his spot, and Marui is just a leftover part.., sorry for my bad english...

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    Re: Shin Prince of Tennis Chapter 87 Discussion/Predicitions

    Isn't Kite supposed to be called the "Killer" rather than the "Hitman" ? Someone correct me if I'm wrong please.

    Nvm, killer and hitman pretty much means the same anyways.

    This is the PoT universe and all, but shouldn't the referee say something about Kite going against Marui? Shouldn't they atleast warn him or something.

    And why would Kimijima want Tohno to be beaten, he's getting something out of it.
    Last edited by Ryonix; September 05, 2012 at 04:06 PM.

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    Re: Shin Prince of Tennis Chapter 87 Discussion/Predicitions

    Konomi is running out of ideas hardcore.

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    Re: Shin Prince of Tennis Chapter 87 Discussion/Predicitions

    This is getting ridiculous, I don't want to think what kind of players are the rest of the G10 are. Kimijima and Tohno are a joke, they don't seem that strong, Atobe/Niou would have destroyed them with Synchro. I hope Konomi isn't showing their true power yet, if not they're lame characters.

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    Re: Shin Prince of Tennis Chapter 87 Discussion/Predicitions

    I find the idea FuRinKaZan mentioned to be one of the more plausible ones for this situation. Even though we had lots of people getting beat up on the court, there was still a distinction between that and attacking people outside of matches.

    We've seen Tohno do the latter multiple times already, so it's not too farfetched to say that it reflects poorly on the team (and those are the guys that represent Japan at international events no less) and Kimijima might want him removed because of that (or maybe because Kimijima has the most public exposure of the G10 and Tohno is kinda nuts).

    The deal would be something along the lines of both Marui and Tohno getting KO'd (or permanently damaged in Tohno's case) with Kimijima keeping No. 7 and Kite taking No. 8. Of course it's possible that this is just one of Kimijima's tricks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    Golden Pair VS Sanada/Atobe?? Both Sanada and Atobe would kill Tachibana and Chitose lol.
    Sanada/Atobe would kick the ass of a lot of pairs right now. Maybe every pair.
    Invalid example.
    The example was perfectly valid since all it was saying was that the statement about GP being the strongest pair at the end of PoT does not include Tachibana/Chitose any more than it includes other random combinations, simply because those other combinations weren't recognized as a pair at that time.

    The example itself doesn't imply either GP > WoK or the other way around though, or at least that's how I interpreted it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    Why would you assume Washio/Suzuki who went 7-6 with WoK who hadn't paired for over a year would beat Golden Pair?
    No Acrobatic Play, No Seal Step, No Special techniques at all, No Oishi Territory, I don't know man, I never once thought that Washio/Suzuki would bt Golden Pair after I saw their match.
    At the time Washio/Suzuki beat WoK, I think it's fair to say that they would have beaten GP as well. The only MSers that had bases equal to those of the 3rd Court HSers were Tezuka and Atobe, and according to the twins, in a Synchro battle the pair with greater abilities wins. They specifically mention physical strength and technique there as well (it makes sense when you think about it... since Synchro grants perfect combination, if both sides have it, it becomes basically a null factor and it comes down to whoever is stronger outside of teamplay).

    It's also not like we have any proof that GP would do better against the twins that Washio/Suzuki did. Oishi/Niou were losing in a Synchro battle and it was only because of Niou's ability to disrupt the Mutsus' Synchro that they won.

    Lastly we've never seen anyone use any special techniques or movements while in Synchro (from what I recall at least), so none of them are necessarily relevant.




    Personally I feel like WoK is above GP but won't get the spots because plot. They most definitely had better bases when the camp started, had equal improvement rates to Kikumaru (although Oishi's was probably a bit higher) and got Synchro as well, maybe a better version at that.

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    Post Re: Shin Prince of Tennis Chapter 87 Discussion/Predicitions

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
    The example was perfectly valid since all it was saying was that the statement about GP being the strongest pair at the end of PoT does not include Tachibana/Chitose any more than it includes other random combinations, simply because those other combinations weren't recognized as a pair at that time.

    The example itself doesn't imply either GP > WoK or the other way around though, or at least that's how I interpreted it.
     
    Okay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
    At the time Washio/Suzuki beat WoK, I think it's fair to say that they would have beaten GP as well.
    Why?
    You think Golden Pair would be equal to WoK without Tachibana and Chitose without using any special shot? Oishi Territory and Seal Step and Acrobatic Play are top combinations.
    WoK were equal with Washio/Suzuki before they had used a shot.

    I think GP would comfortably defeat Tachibana/Chitose if you take away Kamikakushi and Abare Dama from them.
    Since Marui and Jackal froze in fear when they saw Synchro and despite being individually better didn't stand a chance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
    The only MSers that had bases equal to those of the 3rd Court HSers were Tezuka and Atobe, and according to the twins, in a Synchro battle the pair with greater abilities wins. They specifically mention physical strength and technique there as well (it makes sense when you think about it... since Synchro grants perfect combination, if both sides have it, it becomes basically a null factor and it comes down to whoever is stronger outside of teamplay).
    Just the fact that Yamato's stats were poor, and Washio and Suzuki's stats were not shown contradicts ''The only MSers that had bases equal to those of the 3rd Court HSers were Tezuka and Atobe'' theory since Yamato's base stats were poor and we never saw Washio and Suzuki's.

    So Tachibana and Chitose likely had higher stats than Washio and Suzuki.
    Do you really think Shiraishi, Kirihara, WoK individually had weaker stats than them?

    Outside of Synchro they were 3-2 up against Tachibana/Chitose who were at Game Point and they hadn't even used Abare Dama or Kamikakushi yet.
    I kept thinking hold on, these doubles specialists were toe-to-toe against WoK without any special shots? That's not a good look.

    I'm sorry but there is no proof Washio or Suzuki are better Singles Players than Kikumaru at all. Kikumaru no longer sucks. His stamina is solid and he has Seal Step. He is a good Singles player.
    So yeah The Synchro with the higher abilities win, but nothing suggests Washio/Suzuki have necessarily higher abilities.

    They probably climbed their way to 3rd Court since they could use Synchro.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
    It's also not like we have any proof that GP would do better against the twins that Washio/Suzuki did. Oishi/Niou were losing in a Synchro battle and it was only because of Niou's ability to disrupt the Mutsus' Synchro that they won.
    However when they exited Synchro, they were not on the floor and in critical condition unlike Washio/Suzuki.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
    Lastly we've never seen anyone use any special techniques or movements while in Synchro (from what I recall at least), so none of them are necessarily relevant.

    Looks like Kikumaru is using Acrobatic Play here. So you should probably change the theory.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
    Personally I feel like WoK is above GP but won't get the spots because plot. They most definitely had better bases when the camp started, had equal improvement rates to Kikumaru (although Oishi's was probably a bit higher) and got Synchro as well, maybe a better version at that.
    I disagree. Since when did better bases mean better Doubles pair?
    Marui/Jackal >> Kikumaru/Oishi pair in terms of stats. Synchro changes that. Completely.
    Last edited by Airgrimes; September 06, 2012 at 04:50 PM.

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    Re: Shin Prince of Tennis Chapter 87 Discussion/Predicitions

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
     
    Why?
    You think Golden Pair would be equal to WoK without Tachibana and Chitose without using any special shot? Oishi Territory and Seal Step and Acrobatic Play are top combinations.
    WoK were equal with Washio/Suzuki before they had used a shot.
    Washio/Suzuki and WoK went about even without either using special abilities. I think this implies roughly equal bases. Furthermore, I think it's also fair to say that Tachibana and Chitose individually are better than Oishi and Kikumaru. Following that, Washio and Suzuki also have better bases than Oishi and Kikumaru.

    That means GP loses the Synchro battle. If only Washio/Suzuki use Synchro, they win as well (I hope this is obvious).

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    I think GP would comfortably defeat Tachibana/Chitose if you take away Kamikakushi and Abare Dama from them.
    Since Marui and Jackal froze in fear when they saw Synchro and despite being individually better didn't stand a chance.
    Sure, with Synchro they probably would. Without Synchro? Not seeing it given that Marui/Jackal had a comfortable lead during that time and GP struggled with top level pairs in general.

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    Just the fact that Yamato's stats were poor, and Washio and Suzuki's stats were not shown contradicts ''The only MSers that had bases equal to those of the 3rd Court HSers were Tezuka and Atobe'' theory since Yamato's base stats were poor and we never saw Washio and Suzuki's.
    Not really. It's implied that Yamato's abilities were greater than his sheet lets suggest, so he's an outlier. Washio and Suzuki not having any only means that they don't prove my statement. They don't contradict it either though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    So Tachibana and Chitose likely had higher stats than Washio and Suzuki.
    Do you really think Shiraishi, Kirihara, WoK individually had weaker stats than them?
    I'd say Tachibana, Chitose and Shiraishi had comparable bases and Kirihara had weaker ones at the time of the shuffle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    I'm sorry but there is no proof Washio or Suzuki are better Singles Players than Kikumaru at all. Kikumaru no longer sucks. His stamina is solid and he has Seal Step. He is a good Singles player.
    Not really. He barely beat Kai. So unless you want to say that Kai is anywhere near good, he doesn't have any great accomplishments in singles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    So yeah The Synchro with the higher abilities win, but nothing suggests Washio/Suzuki have necessarily higher abilities.

    They probably climbed their way to 3rd Court since they could use Synchro.
    Outside of team shuffles, shuffle matches are singles. I don't see why we should assume that they only got there because of the former.

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    However when they exited Synchro, they were not on the floor and in critical condition unlike Washio/Suzuki.
    No info about how long either of them tried to use Synchro. That's also mixing up points in time since you compare WoK during the team shuffle and Oishi/Niou during the revolution. There hasn't been that much time in between, but enough for improvement and in general the MSers seem to improve at a faster rate than the HSers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post

    Looks like Kikumaru is using Acrobatic Play here. So you should probably change the theory.
    Or it's this: http://mangafox.me/manga/new_prince_...07/c061/5.html

    A better example to combat my point is Atobe using AK, although in that case I would argue that it's a result of his Insight and not a technique in the traditional sense of the word. We haven't seen any of the traditional synchro pairs use any special shots or steps so far.

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    I disagree. Since when did better bases mean better Doubles pair?
    Marui/Jackal >> Kikumaru/Oishi pair in terms of stats. Synchro changes that. Completely.
    So? WoK has Synchro too.

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    Post Re: Shin Prince of Tennis Chapter 87 Discussion/Predicitions

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
    So? WoK has Synchro too.
    We don't know if they can use it on demand as of yet. We haven't even seen it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
    Or it's this: http://mangafox.me/manga/new_prince_...07/c061/5.html

    A better example to combat my point is Atobe using AK, although in that case I would argue that it's a result of his Insight and not a technique in the traditional sense of the word. We haven't seen any of the traditional synchro pairs use any special shots or steps so far.
    Re-read that chapter. Atobe had left Synchro when he used AK and etc.
    AK is a technique outside of their base skills however.

    To see Kikumaru in that completely sideways position in the air and not say it was down to Acrobatic Play seems a bit off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
    Washio/Suzuki and WoK went about even without either using special abilities. I think this implies roughly equal bases. Furthermore, I think it's also fair to say that Tachibana and Chitose individually are better than Oishi and Kikumaru. Following that, Washio and Suzuki also have better bases than Oishi and Kikumaru.

    That means GP loses the Synchro battle. If only Washio/Suzuki use Synchro, they win as well (I hope this is obvious).
    Or it could mean better partnership.
    Inui/Kaidoh individually destroy Shishido/Ootori however Shishido and Ootori comfortably beat them.
    So it's wrong it say it implies roughly equal bases.

    Nothing suggests that Tachibana and Chitose individually had lower/equal bases than 3rd Court.
    I mean think about it.
    They weren't really a level above the MSers. Only Irie and Yamato in terms of skill were above.
    Nakagauchi, Miyako, Matsudaira looking back at them, what about them says that Tachibana or Chitose would struggle against them individually?

    Shiraishi and Akutsu, other MSers from the 5th Court who individually I couldn't see them having trouble with old 3rd Court during the Team Shuffle.

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    Re: Shin Prince of Tennis Chapter 87 Discussion/Predicitions

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    We don't know if they can use it on demand as of yet. We haven't even seen it.
    I heavily doubt that they'll ever play doubles again, so this is somewhat unfortunate. I'm leaning towards saying they have it personally but to each their own.

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    Re-read that chapter. Atobe had left Synchro when he used AK and etc.
    AK is a technique outside of their base skills however.
    Kinda hard to tell in my opinion, but he doesn't have it anymore when Mouri returns the shot, so you may very well be right here. My bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    To see Kikumaru in that completely sideways position in the air and not say it was down to Acrobatic Play seems a bit off.
    I'd like to think so too since I really dislike the levitation thing, but there's this too: http://www.mangareader.net/422-27266...apter-369.html
    And Oishi doesn't have Acrobatic Play.

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    Re: Shin Prince of Tennis Chapter 87 Discussion/Predicitions

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
    Not really. It's implied that Yamato's abilities were greater than his sheet lets suggest, so he's an outlier. Washio and Suzuki not having any only means that they don't prove my statement. They don't contradict it either though.
    There we go, its a statement you can't prove. We haven't seen all of MS 5th Court's stats. Neither have we seen Washio, Suzuki or Takei's stats. So its a weak statement.
    Akutsu, Tachibana, Chitose, Kite, Ishida even Kirihara don't seem like they would really be below Washio or Suzuki in terms of stats.
    Just be honest, if you see the guys I mentioned having trouble with Washio or Suzuki.

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    Re: Shin Prince of Tennis Chapter 87 Discussion/Predicitions

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    Or it could mean better partnership.
    Inui/Kaidoh individually destroy Shishido/Ootori however Shishido and Ootori comfortably beat them.
    So it's wrong it say it implies roughly equal bases.
    Disagree. For starters, Shishido and Ootori hadn't teamed at all before that match (at least in official matches, but even if they had teamed in practice before, it's only been three weeks since they started training together), same goes for Inui and Kaidou. So the teamplay shouldn't be too different.

    Secondly, Shishido by himself was able to shut down Kaidou completely on his own and I don't think it's farfetched to say he would have won in a singles match (not saying he would have definitely won or anything, but saying he'd have outright lost just doesn't sound right).

    Lastly, if Inui and Kaidou hadn't been dumb about it, the match would have been a lot closer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    Nothing suggests that Tachibana and Chitose individually had lower/equal bases than 3rd Court.
    Miyako: 20
    Nakagauchi: 19.5
    Matsudaira: 19

    As opposed to

    Tezuka: 19
    Atobe: 18.5
    Shiraishi: 17.5

    While this doesn't prove that their bases were lower/equal, it certainly suggests it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    Nakagauchi, Miyako, Matsudaira looking back at them, what about them says that Tachibana or Chitose would struggle against them individually?
    Shiraishi, whose specialty is to break down techniques, didn't manage to return Flower without an upgrade. Nakagauchi dominated his opponent completely, although Krauser shouldn't quite be on Tachibana's and Chitose's level. Miyako didn't show much, so can't say anything about him.

    On the flipside, there's also nothing to suggest that Tachibana or Chitose would defeat them as easily as you seem to believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    Shiraishi and Akutsu, other MSers from the 5th Court who individually I couldn't see them having trouble with old 3rd Court during the Team Shuffle.
    But Shiraishi did have trouble. Kite, Gin and Jirou supposedly wouldn't have been able to defeat Takei (although it is only Akutsu's opinion). I'll give you Akutsu, but it was already implied by Oni that he was above most of the other MSers at the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    There we go, its a statement you can't prove. We haven't seen all of MS 5th Court's stats. Neither have we seen Washio, Suzuki or Takei's stats. So its a weak statement.
    Cool. You can't prove the opposite either. Neither can you prove or even support that GP would have done any better against Washio/Suzuki than WoK did, which was the original statement for this whole discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    Akutsu, Tachibana, Chitose, Kite, Ishida even Kirihara don't seem like they would really be below Washio or Suzuki in terms of stats.
    Just be honest, if you see the guys I mentioned having trouble with Washio or Suzuki.
    Outside of Synchro, other techniques can be taken into account, so stats aren't everything there.

    That being said, I don't think Kirihara or Gin would comfortably beat them.

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