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Thread: "I was a good boy but life is hard !" : How to design vilains the Kishi Way

  1. #16
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Ryr's Avatar
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    Re: "I was a good boy but life is hard !" : How to design vilains the Kishi Way

    Quote Originally Posted by hyper_megaman View Post
    how does that imply the particular circumstance you stated?
    You seem to not understand the whole point of my response.

    Rather than bemoaning how the whole story doesn't make sense by ignoring every single detail in the manga, I am connecting all the details that were presented so far to arrive at a logical conclusion.

    Obito said recently, "You let Rin die!"

    He said in the past, "People who abandoned their comrades are worse than trash".

    Put these two statements in the context of the previous world war where Kakashi had to choose between completing the mission and saving his friends and what do you get?

    Think before complaining.

    Whether or not my own conclusion coincides 100% with Kishi's conclusion is irrelevant. I am merely illustrating the point that people like the OP often conveniently ignore the whole plot and then complain that there is no plot.
    Last edited by Ryr; September 06, 2012 at 07:57 PM.

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    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Impossibility's Avatar
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    Re: "I was a good boy but life is hard !" : How to design vilains the Kishi Way

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryr View Post
    You seem to not understand the whole point of my response.

    Rather than bemoaning how the whole story doesn't make sense by ignoring every single detail in the manga, I am connecting all the details that were presented so far to arrive at a logical conclusion.

    Obito said recently, "You let Rin die!"

    He said in the past, "People who abandoned their comrades are worse than trash".

    Put these two statements in the context of the previous world war where Kakashi had to choose between completing the mission and saving his friends and what do you get?

    Think before complaining.

    Whether or not my own conclusion coincides 100% with Kishi's conclusion is irrelevant. I am merely illustrating the point that people like the OP often conveniently ignore the whole plot and then complain that there is no plot.
    Your posts are based entirely on your own interpretations and assumptions. There is nothing that you have put forth that suggests that the OP was unreasonable, or inaccurate. Your 'backstory' is how you think things should be, the OP post is indicative of what has been throughout the course of the manga. Your advising individuals to refer to a backstory that hasn't been put forth, and is mostly of your own making. It may be logical, but it doesn't mean that that is the story that is going to be provided. And whether your conclusion coincides with Kishi's is important in the context of this thread, because you attempted to throw your conclusion in the face of the OP. The OP didn't conveniently ignore the whole plot, you simply made up one of your own that you somehow expected him to adhere to.

  3. #18
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member darkprince0521's Avatar
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    Re: "I was a good boy but life is hard !" : How to design vilains the Kishi Way

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryr View Post
    You seem to not understand the whole point of my response.

    Rather than bemoaning how the whole story doesn't make sense by ignoring every single detail in the manga, I am connecting all the details that were presented so far to arrive at a logical conclusion.

    Obito said recently, "You let Rin die!"

    He said in the past, "People who abandoned their comrades are worse than trash".

    Put these two statements in the context of the previous world war where Kakashi had to choose between completing the mission and saving his friends and what do you get?

    Think before complaining.

    Whether or not my own conclusion coincides 100% with Kishi's conclusion is irrelevant. I am merely illustrating the point that people like the OP often conveniently ignore the whole plot and then complain that there is no plot.
    really now. this backstory; whether it is correct or not; i fail to see it's relevance with this thread.

    what the thread starter wanted to say is, a good innocent guy leaving happily, someone dies or something happens, he becomes sad, blames it on someone, then he goes to the villain side. it has been true throughout the whole manga.
    Naruto Forever


  4. #19
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Ryr's Avatar
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    Re: "I was a good boy but life is hard !" : How to design vilains the Kishi Way

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Your posts are based entirely on your own interpretations and assumptions. There is nothing that you have put forth that suggests that the OP was unreasonable, or inaccurate. Your 'backstory' is how you think things should be, the OP post is indicative of what has been throughout the course of the manga. Your advising individuals to refer to a backstory that hasn't been put forth, and is mostly of your own making. It may be logical, but it doesn't mean that that is the story that is going to be provided. And whether your conclusion coincides with Kishi's is important in the context of this thread, because you attempted to throw your conclusion in the face of the OP. The OP didn't conveniently ignore the whole plot, you simply made up one of your own that you somehow expected him to adhere to.
    I think the OP has a lot more 'intepretations' and 'assumptions' in his post. He constantly ignored all the details in the manga and jumped onto the conclusion that the entire manga doesn't make sense. It is as if someone is wearing sunglasses and then complain that the whole world is so dark and gloomy~

    The conclusion that you are refering to as 'mine' is simply a logical continuation of what would have happened based on all the details that we have been shown in the manga. You are free to disagree with my conclusion and come up with your own, provided that your conclusion has to take into account all the backstories, conversations and monologues that have been shown in the manga so far.

    The OP has not even tried.

    Quote Quote:
    what the thread starter wanted to say is, a good innocent guy leaving happily, someone dies or something happens, he becomes sad, blames it on someone, then he goes to the villain side. it has been true throughout the whole manga.
    That's a gross oversimplification of the whole theme of the manga. Oversimplification and ignorance.

    If the sole reason why Obito turned villain was because he hated Kakashi for abandoning Rin, he would've focused all his anger on Kakashi alone. He did not. Why?

    Think.
    Last edited by Ryr; September 06, 2012 at 11:48 PM.

  5. #20
    Reviewer 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member blackjack612's Avatar
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    Re: "I was a good boy but life is hard !" : How to design vilains the Kishi Way

    I'll easily admit that Kishimoto draws repeatedly from the same well when it comes to character motivations in this series. People in Naruto tend to have alienation and dead parent issues the way main characters in Christopher Nolan movies tend to have dead wife/dead lover issues.

    That said, Naruto has featured some extremely complex, empathetic, and charismatic villains. It's easy to be snarky and point out that Orochimaru, Itachi, Sasuke, Nagato, and Sasori were orphaned, but it's a rather superficial analysis. The majority of this series takes place during times of unrest and war and follows a warrior class. Some kids are going to lose parents.

    What I think is really interesting is the ways Kishimoto differentiates the characters through their motivations and situation.

    Orochimaru war orphaned early in the war and it obviously left some unresolved emotional issues. Uniquely among the villains in this series, he is unable to appreciate life. Lacking in true empathy, he understands emotion enough to manipulate others as necessary. What is his chief motivator? Knowledge. All of it. And he is talented and genius enough to make that an almost possible goal. His character is in the vain of classic science-fiction scientists pushing the limits of known knowledge and technology without heed to the cost and corruption such knowledge brings.

    Itachi was orphaned too, but he didn't become a villain because he was an orphan. He orphaned himself to become a villain for reasons that are extremely dark for a shonen series. He committed genocide to prevent civil war and thus avert another potential global war. The ickiness of this crime is not glossed over in the least. He recognizes it was horrible. His superiors recognize it is horrible. Yet he did it because he is motivated primarily by duty to the village. Samurai may have appeared late in the game, but Itachi was very samurai for a ninja. Orochimaru speaks in abstract and technical terms. Itachi speaks in secrets and double meanings dressed in high-mannered phrasing.

    Sasuke was orphaned and took the obvious path: revenge. It also makes him rather unique among the villains. No one aside from Nagato has avenged their loss (to our knowledge). And unlike the rest, he gives himself freely and recklessly to hatred.

    Nagato devoted himself to peace, as did Hanzo. Both came from an era and land of war. When Hanzo found his goal unobtainable, his main goal became self-preservation. Nagato just got smarter, and rather more cynical. What discourse and ideals couldn't accomplish, fear and overwhelming power would. Uniquely among the villains, he spent most of his life as a puppet, easily manipulated by his foibles.

    Kabuto lost his adoptive family and more than any other character lost all sense of self. He built himself anew again from his pieces of better shinobi and became a master manipulator in the end. Someone who was able to cow Itachi in ways Orochimaru was never able to.

    Sasori lost his parents and lost a sense of self. People became replaceable things. Orochimaru sought immortality so he could achieve perfection and knowledge. Sasori sought immortality by removing the weakness he saw as the flesh. Orochimaru moved past his pain. Sasori couldn't. The puppets, his jutsu, all of it stemmed from a desire to raise the dead and thus his parents in some small way.

    He provided a perfect foil for Deidara. The two were obsessed with art and presented differing schools of thought. What is art? Is it meant to last or burn in the moment? Is it permanence or pop art? Other villains have also been used to discuss and portray ideas. Kakuzu was pure mercenary, all about the money. Hidan was a religious fanatic. Zabuza came to understand the world and saw that to reach the top he would have to use others as he'd been used. Kisame lived in darkness, though unlike Itachi, his was without purpose, and so he desired an honest land.

    Obito was in love and he lost it. I personally don't think it's enough justification to explain Tobi's actions, but as someone who's been heartbroken many times, I can understand his desire to run away from the world. His is the most extreme motivation. He sees our reality as flawed, and sets about replacing it with something better.

    Madara isn't pure hatred. He is power. Pure power. And he knows this. Is he actually prideful if he can back up his claims? Is he falsely superior for holding the Uchiha over everything if the Uchiha have been major moves in world politics? He's a man on a mission to prove he's the best and the only stain on that claim is the Senju. Nagato had as much power and thought himself a god. Madara knows that he's just a man, but is content to be a man above other men so long as no others are above him.

    These are varied and complex characters. They may share similar roots but the ways they branch off from their beginnings are strange and at times unexpected. Each could be the star of his own series. Each has enough justification to see himself as the center of the story, the wronged party. Some even shift back and forth from villain to hero. They mirror each other. They mirror our heroes. When Kishimoto's on his game, they also mirror us.

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  7. #21
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member darkprince0521's Avatar
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    Re: "I was a good boy but life is hard !" : How to design vilains the Kishi Way

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryr View Post
    That's a gross oversimplification of the whole theme of the manga. Oversimplification and ignorance.

    If the sole reason why Obito turned villain was because he hated Kakashi for abandoning Rin, he would've focused all his anger on Kakashi alone. He did not. Why?

    Think.
    if you look at my post; then you will see: "someone dies or something happens"

    i don't know which one will be applied to Tobi; but at the end the result would be same. a sad good child turned to evil because he was sad. oversimplification is hitting exactly on right spot.
    Naruto Forever


  8. #22
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity jaymizzo's Avatar
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    Re: "I was a good boy but life is hard !" : How to design vilains the Kishi Way

    I wonder if there would be a villain who is a villain just for the fun of it. I mean up until now Tobi was just that, for the absolute sake of it.
    "Man hands misery onto man" - Philip Larkin

  9. #23
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Impossibility's Avatar
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    Re: "I was a good boy but life is hard !" : How to design vilains the Kishi Way

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryr View Post
    I think the OP has a lot more 'intepretations' and 'assumptions' in his post. He constantly ignored all the details in the manga and jumped onto the conclusion that the entire manga doesn't make sense. It is as if someone is wearing sunglasses and then complain that the whole world is so dark and gloomy~

    The conclusion that you are refering to as 'mine' is simply a logical continuation of what would have happened based on all the details that we have been shown in the manga. You are free to disagree with my conclusion and come up with your own, provided that your conclusion has to take into account all the backstories, conversations and monologues that have been shown in the manga so far.

    The OP has not even tried.
    What assumptions were made? Everything that was listed about Tobi's trek to villainy has been put forth by the manga. I don't necessarily disagree with your conclusion, as I've said, it seems distinctly possible, maybe even likely. My point is that your conclusion is theory, while everything that he presented was fact. And yet you took him to task, seemingly without cause, for just that. If you can point out something in his breakdown of Tobi that hasn't already been shown by the manga, either through Tobi's words, or actions, then you'd have some justification for your response.

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    Re: "I was a good boy but life is hard !" : How to design vilains the Kishi Way

    #4 is actually the most accurate description of sasuke that I've ever read!

  12. #25
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    Re: "I was a good boy but life is hard !" : How to design vilains the Kishi Way

    Quote Originally Posted by jaymizzo View Post
    I wonder if there would be a villain who is a villain just for the fun of it. I mean up until now Tobi was just that, for the absolute sake of it.
    I was thinking the same thing, lol. Tobi was some kind of Joker and in a single chapter he turned worse than Team Rocket.
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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Notak's Avatar
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    Re: "I was a good boy but life is hard !" : How to design vilains the Kishi Way

    Rin isn't the main cause of Tobi's anger. Remember, the guy was very likely in close contact with Madara, and he must've been brainwashed pretty badly.
    Not to mention when you're thirteen years old and have a very near-death experience, you're very traumatized and probably easy to control. Not to mention the physical trauma.

    He's more like Nagato in that someone close to him died and he decided to seek out peace by twisted means. Atleast Nagato was an orphan and raised through war, his life seems to have been more painful than Tobi's.
    But the key element is that they were manipulated, and Nagato's "peace" had more good intentions than Tobi's more false, selfish peace

  15. #27
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: "I was a good boy but life is hard !" : How to design vilains the Kishi Way

    Quote Originally Posted by jaymizzo View Post
    I wonder if there would be a villain who is a villain just for the fun of it. I mean up until now Tobi was just that, for the absolute sake of it.
    Tobi was never a villain for the fun of it, he just wanted power and peace, as he said to Naruto. I think the only one who was the villain for the fun of it was Orochimaru. He certainly didn't need to be a villain to learn every jutsu he possibly could, but he still chose to be.

    In any case, the thread creator simplifies the villains too much. Apart from Nagato, majority of the villains are way more complex. It's not necessarily a case of hard life making them go bad. With Nagato, the loss of hope and death of his close ones made him go evil. Sasuke went rogue because he wanted revenge and was willing to kill Itachi, but he didn't truly go bad or evil until Tobi told him what really happened. Even then, he now has doubts about the right path.

    Most villains aren't necessarily villains if you see things from their point of view. They could be heroes or tragic heroes. Nagato wasn't necessarily a villain in his point of view because what he sought was peace, but through destruction and justified the means with the end. Sasuke can be considered a tragic hero because he used to be good, but after Itachi killed his family, he sought revenge and was willing to do anything or sacrifice anything to gain power. LIke Nagato, Naruto influenced him for the better until Orochimaru got to him. Sasuke despite three years with Orochimaru refused to kill innocent people.

    Would write more, but out of time now.

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    Re: "I was a good boy but life is hard !" : How to design vilains the Kishi Way

    Quote Originally Posted by Minishin View Post
    My adoptive mother is still dead.Did i just told you that i can resurrect people ?
    ahahahha pure win ...i couldnt stop laughing when i read this
    THE UCHIHA LOGIC:
    "brother follows hiw on path? destroy konoha " uchiha sasuke
    "the village wants you not to interfere with politics? coup-d'etat" uchiha fugaku
    "coup-d'etat on the way? obliterate entire clan" uchiha itachi
    "clan wants to make peace? destroy everyone everywhere" uchiha madara
    "10 years old crush dead?infinite tsukyumi" uchiha obito



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    Re: "I was a good boy but life is hard !" : How to design vilains the Kishi Way

    Rin is the main reason for tobis actions
    She was the last thing left for obito in the world, his last attachment to reality
    After all his hopes were chrushed and he lost his last link to reality,he realizes that theres no hope in this world and that this reality is useless

  18. #30
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member IChallengeYou!'s Avatar
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    Re: "I was a good boy but life is hard !" : How to design vilains the Kishi Way

    Quote Quote:
    I mean, really, he's just annoying. He's the most evil person, but has almost no reason to complain since most of his problems actually were a direct result of him being a horrible jerk
    I am pretty sure the title of "annoying" would be applied to everyone. I find Obito annoying. He complains about life, basically. Madara got slapped in the face by it, then decided "ok fuck this" and turned into a God. Obito? A damsel in distress.

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