"I was a good boy but life is hard !" : How to design vilains the Kishi Way

[Ryr]

My point is that your conclusion is theory, while everything that he presented was fact. And yet you took him to task, seemingly without cause, for just that. If you can point out something in his breakdown of Tobi that hasn't already been shown by the manga, either through Tobi's words, or actions, then you'd have some justification for your response.

Facts? All I see in his "facts" are ignorance of the true events that have happened in the manga.

I'll choose one of his "facts" right now:

Someone resurrected my brother and he stopped one of the strongest bad guy in the world and told me that the pride of the clan was in my hands.
So i resurrected the bad guy who tried to overtake my body...and my brother's body.
My whole clan is still dead...so is my brother lol !

Now, he wrote as if Sasuke resurrected Orochimaru for no apparent reason. However, in the manga, it was revealed that Sasuke brought back Orochimaru because Orochimaru has the knowledge or ability to bring him to the source of information that will reveal to him everything that has transpired in respect of his village and his clan. He wants to find out what exactly happened and from there, makes his own decision on what actions would be appropriate. He may choose to side with the village, or he may not, it may all depends on what exactly happened in the past - who betrayed who?

What the OP wrote is far from being 'facts'. He assumed that Sasuke brought back Oro for the heck of it, and in the process of doing so, he ignored the entire plot.

It is exactly as I've said. He ignored the whole plot and then complain that there is no plot. I'll crush nonsense like these everytime I see one.

[hyper_megaman]

Facts? All I see in his "facts" are ignorance of the true events that have happened in the manga.

I'll choose one of his "facts" right now:



Now, he wrote as if Sasuke resurrected Orochimaru for no apparent reason. However, in the manga, it was revealed that Sasuke brought back Orochimaru because Orochimaru has the knowledge or ability to bring him to the source of information that will reveal to him everything that has transpired in respect of his village and his clan. He wants to find out what exactly happened and from there, makes his own decision on what actions would be appropriate. He may choose to side with the village, or he may not, it may all depends on what exactly happened in the past - who betrayed who?

What the OP wrote is far from being 'facts'. He assumed that Sasuke brought back Oro for the heck of it, and in the process of doing so, he ignored the entire plot.

It is exactly as I've said. He ignored the whole plot and then complain that there is no plot. I'll crush nonsense like these everytime I see one.

actually, what he said are precisely 'facts'. most people here have pointed out that the main problem is oversimplification and omission. it still does not make it any less FACTUAL.

what you were attacking him with, and all your own 'backstory' links are merely hypothetical and at best circumstantial (though this is hardly the case), definitely never expressed in canon. relative to his factual observations, your posts are tenuous at best, and additionally your wanton aggression towards his post is just unwarranted and unnecessary.

you should really stop interrupting discussions with your unwarranted insults. such behaviour is reminiscent of aggressive teenage defiance, and is uncalled for in this place (or at least that's what i think)

you love kishi and worship sasuke, we get that from your avatar. everyone's still entitled to freely discuss anything, whether they support or criticise kishi's work.

please just stop your whiny complaints on how the posts aren't following 'what I wanted', and stop with the insults and mud-slings, and pay due credit to genuine insights (whatever stance they may be) on the manga. please just look at your constitution's first amendment

oversimplification and/or spot omission may be the case in this original post, but it held enough sense to trigger a nice discussion we have going there among the people. we need more posts like this.

---------- Post added at 06:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:03 AM ----------

well, no, that's just plainly wrong. Smart people are very well idealized in the Naruto manga. Prodigious growth is associated with the most well respected characters. It's because intelligence is so well respected that he makes the villains intelligent -- to make them competent.

examples of intelligence clearly shown in a very admirable light: Shikamaru, Itachi, Minato, etc.

also in general it's silly to say "lol he made the villain a certain way, he must hate that in real people." he wrote a fictional story conscious of the fact that it's fictional. the highest priority is for the story to be interesting, and it becomes interesting wtih competent villains. He always prioritizes making the villains competent, and filling them with admirable traits so that the reader can find them likable as well. It's very unlikely a characteristic would be this common in his manga (intelligence) if he thought it wasn't an admirable quality.

that is a very good point. i was too focused on his portrayal of villains commonly being intellectual social outcasts, and forgot to consider the protagonists having smart people as well

i'd still hold my stance though, albeit not as adamantly, specifically regarding the portrayal of the protagonist 'geniuses'.

in general they are still illustrated as being lazy and unmotivated. anyone who is smart + has motivation to keep training/expanding his power = antagonistic

so to rephrase my previous conclusion, kishi seems to have an obsessive hate for hardworking ambitious smart people

[M3J]

Moderator message by: M3J

Let's all get along. No need for name calling or gettin personal. Debate amiably or ignore.

[Ryr]

actually, what he said are precisely 'facts'. most people here have pointed out that the main problem is oversimplification and omission. it still does not make it any less FACTUAL.

Omission does make something less factual. At its worst, if someone omits all the details to arrive at the conclusion that he or she wants to arrive at, the whole thing becomes a lie.

definitely never expressed in canon. relative to his factual observations, your posts are tenuous at best, and additionally your wanton aggression towards his post is just unwarranted and unnecessary.

Precisely which part of the conversation that I've quoted is not canon?

"People who abadoned their comrades are worst the trash"?

Or was it "Kakashi had to choose between completing the mission and saving his friends"?

you should really stop interrupting discussions with your unwarranted insults. such behaviour is reminiscent of aggressive teenage defiance, and is uncalled for in this place (or at least that's what i think)

If you are observant enough you would have realised by now that I strictly drive my criticisms towards people who complain for the sake of complaining. People who base their arguments on thoughtful reasonings and solid manga materials have nothing to fear.

you love kishi and worship sasuke, we get that from your avatar. everyone's still entitled to freely discuss anything, whether they support or criticise kishi's work.

If you criticize fairly then you do not have anything to fear.

oversimplification and/or spot omission may be the case in this original post, but it held enough sense to trigger a nice discussion we have going there among the people.

Criticisms are always subject to other criticisms. It's fairly hypocritical of you to promote 'free speech' when you are essentially trying to stop me from criticizing the criticisms of other posters.

we need more posts like this.

We need more thoughtful posts, not bitter rants that are constructed out of ommissions and ignorance.

[hyper_megaman]

Omission does make something less factual. At its worst, if someone omits all the details to arrive at the conclusion that he or she wants to arrive at, the whole thing becomes a lie.



Precisely which part of the conversation that I've quoted is not canon?

"People who abadoned their comrades are worst the trash"?

Or was it "Kakashi had to choose between completing the mission and saving his friends"?



If you are observant enough you would have realised by now that I strictly drive my criticisms towards people who complain for the sake of complaining. People who base their arguments on thoughtful reasonings and solid manga materials have nothing to fear.



If you criticize fairly then you do not have anything to fear.



Criticisms are always subject to other criticisms. It's fairly hypocritical of you to promote 'free speech' when you are essentially trying to stop me from criticizing the criticisms of other posters.



We need more thoughtful posts, not bitter rants that are constructed out of ommissions and ignorance.

it seemed more like a fun observation than a bitter rant to me.

I'll crush nonsense like these everytime I see one.

Seriously, think about the backstory before opening your mouth to complain.

a comparison of both your posts gives the axiomatic conclusion that yours is the one that's bitter and spiteful, so please don't be the first to throw such accusations at him.

in any case i think you have turned this too personal. there is a time and place for venting frustrations, and this forum is not it. if you don't like what you see, move on and stop your wanton aggression against (what i thought was) playful fun-poking and legitimate criticism

'Crush' 'nonsense'?

as m3j said, if you can't debate amiably, just ignore and move along.

let's not let this get any more personal than it has, and move back to discussions of the facts and appropriate presentations (where due) of hypotheses.

---------- Post added at 09:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:50 AM ----------

I do believe your analysis is mistaken. Rather than copy and paste, Kishi develops a sense of narrative coherence with his villains. Each has been designed to reinforce the principle themes of Naruto, and fit comfortably into the world of the story. Naruto and Sasuke form the stories primary rivalries. Both faced adversity as children. Naruto overcame adversity, worked hard, built friendships, and grew into a fixture of the community. Sasuke never learned to overcome adversity, was overcome by his anger, fled the village, and is now shunned by the community. After established Naruto's rivalry with Sasuke, Kishi began establishing all subsequent major antagonists as part of similar rivalries. Rikudou Sennin's Younger Son and Older Son, Hashirama and Madara, Sarutobi and Danzou, Jiraiya and Orochimaru, Kakashi and Obito, Pain and Naruto. This establishes that the primary conflict, Naruto and Sasuke, is more than personal. Theirs is part of a greater conflict, reaching back to the beginning of time, shaping the ninja world. This also establishes narrative cohesion, maintaining a sense that Naruto is a unified story centered around a single conflict, the will of fire against the power of hate.

I agree with your reasoning. kishi is probably trying to draw parallels and establish that such a rivalry between naruto and sasuke comes from historical analogies far older and greater than just the two of them.

hoever, this establishment of much of the manga's villains as arising from such similar rivalries does give the impression that they more or less come from the same mould. kishi's attempt at drawing historical parallels has the basic effect of creating two persons (historical or not), where one is famous and renowned for his gifted strength while the other is the master of endurance.

and this basically still boils down to two basic moulds: the high achiever vs the under achiever. this is why i have those conclusions about how kishi hates high achievers/geniuses

your reasoning does imbue upon this circumstance some justification, but the observations are still funny nonetheless, and i think the OP did well in pointing it out in criticism and in jest


someone should make a flow chart! hahaha

[Ryr]

and this basically still boils down to two basic moulds: the high achiever vs the under achiever. this is why i have those conclusions about how kishi hates high achievers/geniuses

What you are saying right here is equivalent to "there are only two kinds of people in this world - Male and Female".

Everyone has his or her own personality, just because you ignored them doesn't mean they are not there.

Again, you are simply ignoring every single detail to arrive at an oversimplified (and bad) conclusion.

[Fox666]

What you are saying right here is equivalent to "there are only two kinds of people in this world - Male and Female".

And there aren't...? Or are you counting genetics anomalies?

[M3J]

I think he's trying to say that you're just looking at one thing when you should be looking at more, like the race of people, age, etc. Instead of looking at genders, look at other stuff too. I agree, the OP was too simple without any thoughts behind the actions. That's like saying right now that Naruto wants to get strong just so he can get respect. That's far too simplified. Naruto wants to get strong so he can protect the ones he loves and holds dear, among other reasons.

Naruto isn't DBZ, it's more complex and deep. Or it was, before Part II. What the OP failed to do was look at the reasons, the motivations, for what the villains did and instead looked at what they did on top, without diving into the subject. And I guess in doing that, the result was that he made them look bad or childish.


Unlike DBZ, most Naruto villains aren't motivated by power or desire to rule the world or anything. Their motivation comes from what they've experienced or what they want. Orochimaru isn't necessarily looking for power as much as he is looking to know every single jutsu there ever was, whether found or yet to be found.

[juUnior]

I was a young talented ninja

Aside from point 8, everywhere is this line.. if thats the case, then Tobi aka Uchiha Obito <if he is indeed Obito which seems to be that way> is not created in this way. Kakashi was supposed to be a "young taented ninja", hell, even Gai beat Obito and whatnot, and he seems clumsy like Naruto is.. was for Obito. It doesn't fit at all this criteria - probably its the first time a "genius" is not made into villain at all but we see a guy really resembling at some point Naruto, character wise. Neji, Gaara <both 'villain mode'>, Sasuke, Tobi aka Obito, Nagato, most of them where hailed at some point as progeny or were called geniuses <yes, thats right, even Gaara! > You also forgot there were guys <usually guys> that were not given any back story <if you don't read databooks that is> and seems to be bad.. just because. Kakuzu was bounty murderer who killed mostly for money, Hidan was religious murderer who killed for his religion or because his religion was supposed to be like that, or even Zabuza or Kisame who were raised to be a murderous shinobi to begin with because their village was like that back then.