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Thread: People are mad at Kishimoto for no reason.

  1. #1
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member kthy0056's Avatar
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    Crying People are mad at Kishimoto for no reason.

    I always held dear the theory that Obito is Tobi. And it wasn't a goddamn wildcard as many of you in here are accusing. Kishi was thinking about doing this plot line from a very long time ago.
    This is why Kakashi is the only character that has a "gaiden".
    This is why Tobi was introduced fairly early in the manga (before Hidan, Kakuzu, Nagato and Konan).
    This is why Kakashi got his own version of MS in part 2.
    This is why Tobi didn't reveal his face after calling himself Madara, or why his name is pretty similar to Obito, or why he's using an ability similar to Kamui (which again, was revealed pretty early in the plot).

    If anything, you should be mad because Kishimoto introduced Madara in all of this, as an actual catalyst for many events (forming Akatsuki, releasing Kyuubi on Konoha, helping Itachi). But not because Tobi is Obito, that was foreshadowed just like Itachi being good was foreshadowed.

    I feel inclined to refer to one of my older threads (this one: http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...not-Dostoevsky). Again, Kishimoto is not going for the Nobel prize in literature ... he's not even creating something that would count as an intellectual manga. He's creating a shounen action piece for teenagers and young adults with just a little bit of complexity thrown in.

    And for that level, I think that he is doing just fine, more than that even. He covered Edo Tensei (which was a big and underused plot device, like the Time Turner in Harry Potter), he introduced several new and interesting characters over the war (though to be honest, it was kinda rushed) and he has some consistency in story. Madara seems to know Obito and they probably worked together (which will explain some of the plot holes you all people complain about) .

    Is anyone else annoyed as me on how undermined Naruto is by its fans? The threads used to be fun and people used to be excited about what happens next.

    Like the song says, don't worry and be happy !

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    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner
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    Re: People are mad at Kishimoto for no reason.

    Agreed, while there were inconsistencies and like you said the war is rushed, the important parts weren't and the end result is a supremely enjoyable 600 (!!) long manga with alot more depth than what I'm used to. GJ kishi.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Krina29's Avatar
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    Re: People are mad at Kishimoto for no reason.

    I think Naruto has good and bad parts but nothing is perfect

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Murdock's Avatar
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    Re: People are mad at Kishimoto for no reason.

    we are not mad that Tobi is Obito we are mad because the way Kishi wrote it, it is impossible ... if he wrote the story more carefully and as you said he planned it (IMO he didn't) there woudln't be those plotholes and timeline impossibilities ... it's not about the fact he is obito ... but because he was lazy when making up the story

    the problem is that if he planned it from the start or at least from the kakashi gaiden why are there so many timeline impossibilities that deny tobi and obito being one and the same person .. I understand he wanted create some mystery but he still could have been more carefull about the story itself especially if he planned it as you are claiming ..
    Why Tobi can't be Obito (or Rin):

    Year 0 for our purposes:
    We know that Madara and Tobi knew each other (confirmed by Kishi) and gave Madara's Rinnegan to Nagato.
    Year 5:
    J-Man trains Nagato
    Year 10:
    Obito is born.Tobi might be using Obito's eye but that is improbable since it would most likely be MS technique BUT considering how much he's been using it he would be blind by now. Itachi used it very sporadically and was blind, same Sasuke-Tobi is spamming it for 17 years and is OK?

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    MH Senpai 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Uchiha_Blood's Avatar
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    Re: People are mad at Kishimoto for no reason.

    People are mad at Kishimoto for plenty of reasons, I will not repeat all the reasons why the Tobito revelation was a kick in the groin for Naruto's story, as well as many other things before that.
    People are mad because this war arc fucked up this manga badly, and while I'll agree that we still don't have the full picture at hand, it still doesn't change the fact that, unless divine inspiration descends upon Kishimoto, the explanation he'll give will likely suck and probably feed the rage.

    Doesn't change the fact that everyone can say what they want, this is a forum, it isn't a board where we worship Kishimoto's butt by kissing it saying how good his manga is, because its not.
    And saying that he "is not going for the Nobel prize in literature ... he's not even creating something that would count as an intellectual manga" to justify the fact that he makes less sense than a guy high on drugs mixed with detergent is like saying that he can suck because he is making a manga, and that we have to accept it.
    Needless to say, that isn't how it works.

    Still I'll agree with you that many here take this manga like some sort of serious business, we rarely get to joke anymore.
    Last edited by Uchiha_Blood; September 08, 2012 at 10:49 AM.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shafagh's Avatar
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    Re: People are mad at Kishimoto for no reason.

    well , before War arc , this manga was AAA shounen and now this is a A rank manga ( war arc is C rank story ... a long war in 2 years and without any death or even heavy injury to any signification so called good characters !!!!!! )

    we are mad at him because he turned his orginal work to a incomplete copy of Dragonballs and star wars and etc ....

    Sigh ... at least I have so many reasons to get disappointed about current state of story !!!


    for example :
    look at these thread :
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...-Why-Until-Now...
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...9-Obito-Uchiha

    in climax of manga : the point of these chapter is 2 out of 5 !! ( I think Blackjack612 always has positive view at Naruto manga but even he couldn't bear this recent chapters !!)
    Last edited by shafagh; September 08, 2012 at 11:10 AM.
    خداحافظ

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member kthy0056's Avatar
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    Re: People are mad at Kishimoto for no reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    People are mad at Kishimoto for plenty of reasons, I will not repeat all the reasons why the Tobito revelation was a kick in the groin for Naruto's story, as well as many other things before that.
    But that was my point. It wasn't a "kick in the groin" because it was planned quite sometime ago. If anything, putting Madara as the mastermind behind everything is the "kick in the groin" (by the way, Madara still counts as a major player right now, as it seems). What I'm saying is that you're criticizing the wrong part, if anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    And saying that he "is not going for the Nobel prize in literature ... he's not even creating something that would count as an intellectual manga" to justify the fact that he makes less sense than a guy high on drugs mixed with detergent is like saying that he can suck because he is making a manga, and that we have to accept it.
    Needless to say, that isn't how it works.
    Why not? Naruto was inspired by Dragon Ball Z and YuYu Hakusho, not Neon Genesis Evanghelion and Monster. It's a manga where shinobi stood for "guy with magical powers" rather than "guy that's stealthy, manipulative and lethal". It was flashy and featured lots of cliches that we find in shounen all the time.

    I'm not saying that Naruto sucks, I'm saying that Naruto works on a different level than most of you expect, probably because the manga is no longer targeted for your age (even I feel that I'm outgrowing it). It's meant to be enjoyed by people who enjoy The Avengers, not by the people who are looking forward to The Master.



    [edit]
    Besides, many holes could be handwaved easily if you remember what manga you are reading.
    For example, some people wonder how did Obito get to be so evil and powerful (enough to face Minato) in such a short time (iirc, we don't know how much time did it pass since his apparent demise, 2 or 3 years maybe). Well, Obito is an Uchiha who fell under the corruption of hatred ... sounds familiar?
    It does, because it is. Sasuke in a few years went from a competent genin to one of the most dangerous shinobi in the world, also he's a merciless villain at this point. On a similar note, at a similar age, Itachi murdered the entire clan. Gaara was, as a kid, the secret weapon in the invasion aganst Konoha. By the time he was 15, he was a kage. Kakashi was jonin when he was 13 years old.
    Why are we stuck up on this plot point? Kids and teenagers have proven themselves to be potentially powerful, especially when they are driven by hatred or love/the will of fire. If we put things up together such as the fact that Obito is an Uchiha and that Madara probably taught him a few tricks, it's not as insane as you may think.

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    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: People are mad at Kishimoto for no reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Murdock View Post
    we are not mad that Tobi is Obito we are mad because the way Kishi wrote it, it is impossible ... if he wrote the story more carefully and as you said he planned it (IMO he didn't) there woudln't be those plotholes and timeline impossibilities ... it's not about the fact he is obito ... but because he was lazy when making up the story

    the problem is that if he planned it from the start or at least from the kakashi gaiden why are there so many timeline impossibilities that deny tobi and obito being one and the same person .. I understand he wanted create some mystery but he still could have been more carefull about the story itself especially if he planned it as you are claiming ..
    This. At the least, there are many inane theories that don't work, like Obito unlocking his MS and surviving the "rock slide attack." Kishi also obviously changed his mind and made Tobi into Obito. First two times we saw Tobi's face, there was a bag under his right eye, like Madara had. Last two chapters, there's no bag. He wants to give fan service and please the Tobito theorists for some reason. Not to mention, the wrinkles looked more like wrinkles than scars.

    There's too many inconsistencies and error with Obito being Tobi. If there wasn't, then I'd accept it no matter how much I'd hate the idea. In two years, Tobi got good enough to plan well enough to separate Minato, know how to free the Kyuubi, be able to control the Kyuubi, be on par with Minato, and tank rasengan like it was nothing. All this from someone who was too scared to save himself against a bunshin ninja, cried, and had a completely different ideal. Hell, he even fucking choked on a candy while doing actual combat.

    Yeah, can't blame us for being peeved at Kishi.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member kthy0056's Avatar
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    Re: People are mad at Kishimoto for no reason.

    Did you actually not read both of my posts in this thread?
    How the hell did Kishimoto give fan service to Tobito theorists since he dedicated a few friggin chapters of his manga to the backstory of Kakashi (out of the blue, with no relation to the plot) about 360 chapters ago? He also created Tobi as a character very early during part 2. At the very least you people could admit that Masashi Kishimoto PLAYED with the idea of having Obito as the real identity of Tobi.
    And again with the power argument. Naruto froze in front of Zabuza (bigger deal than those earth nin, but still) and now he's in the top of his game.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Murdock's Avatar
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    Re: People are mad at Kishimoto for no reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by kthy0056 View Post
    Besides, many holes could be handwaved easily if you remember what manga you are reading.
    For example, some people wonder how did Obito get to be so evil and powerful (enough to face Minato) in such a short time (iirc, we don't know how much time did it pass since his apparent demise, 2 or 3 years maybe). Well, Obito is an Uchiha who fell under the corruption of hatred ... sounds familiar?
    It does, because it is. Sasuke in a few years went from a competent genin to one of the most dangerous shinobi in the world, also he's a merciless villain at this point. On a similar note, at a similar age, Itachi murdered the entire clan. Gaara was, as a kid, the secret weapon in the invasion aganst Konoha. By the time he was 15, he was a kage. Kakashi was jonin when he was 13 years old.
    Why are we stuck up on this plot point? Kids and teenagers have proven themselves to be potentially powerful, especially when they are driven by hatred or love/the will of fire. If we put things up together such as the fact that Obito is an Uchiha and that Madara probably taught him a few tricks, it's not as insane as you may think.
    bold part: try 0.5 to 1 year based on manga timeline

    as I mentioned those aren't the ploholes - obito going mad, I really don't care about that, well not that much .... but IF tobi and Obito was AT ALL INSTAMCES one person then I am gonna have a problem since at some of those instances Obito shoudln't even be born

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    This. At the least, there are many inane theories that don't work, like Obito unlocking his MS and surviving the "rock slide attack." Kishi also obviously changed his mind and made Tobi into Obito. First two times we saw Tobi's face, there was a bag under his right eye, like Madara had. Last two chapters, there's no bag. He wants to give fan service and please the Tobito theorists for some reason. Not to mention, the wrinkles looked more like wrinkles than scars.

    There's too many inconsistencies and error with Obito being Tobi. If there wasn't, then I'd accept it no matter how much I'd hate the idea. In two years, Tobi got good enough to plan well enough to separate Minato, know how to free the Kyuubi, be able to control the Kyuubi, be on par with Minato, and tank rasengan like it was nothing. All this from someone who was too scared to save himself against a bunshin ninja, cried, and had a completely different ideal. Hell, he even fucking choked on a candy while doing actual combat.

    Yeah, can't blame us for being peeved at Kishi.
    try 0.5 to 1 year ... but I really don't care about that anymore ... him going crazy whatever I don't care, not anymore ... but with the timeline I have major issue ... I can't let it go

    rather then obito going crazy I hate all the Hashirama made-up-in-the-last-second hype I mean in the beginning he was just mokuton user - then bijuu controller - then riddukou descendant - then pollen one kill technique - then super-healing-unbeatable-one

    and then Madara and his super-susanoo I mean WTF ... I bet when Itachi used Susanoo as a final stage against Sasuke - that was the final susanoo at that time - kishi just went nuts again ...
    Why Tobi can't be Obito (or Rin):

    Year 0 for our purposes:
    We know that Madara and Tobi knew each other (confirmed by Kishi) and gave Madara's Rinnegan to Nagato.
    Year 5:
    J-Man trains Nagato
    Year 10:
    Obito is born.Tobi might be using Obito's eye but that is improbable since it would most likely be MS technique BUT considering how much he's been using it he would be blind by now. Itachi used it very sporadically and was blind, same Sasuke-Tobi is spamming it for 17 years and is OK?

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    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member
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    Re: People are mad at Kishimoto for no reason.

    I still believe kishi will make it make sense.
    I can think of a few scenario's to make the time line make sense.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Murdock's Avatar
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    Re: People are mad at Kishimoto for no reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by kthy0056 View Post
    Did you actually not read both of my posts in this thread?
    How the hell did Kishimoto give fan service to Tobito theorists since he dedicated a few friggin chapters of his manga to the backstory of Kakashi (out of the blue, with no relation to the plot) about 360 chapters ago? He also created Tobi as a character very early during part 2. At the very least you people could admit that Masashi Kishimoto PLAYED with the idea of having Obito as the real identity of Tobi.
    And again with the power argument. Naruto froze in front of Zabuza (bigger deal than those earth nin, but still) and now he's in the top of his game.
    I am not saying he didn't play with it but the manga itself shows he changed his mind - M3J is right abou the face - it has changed in last two chapters ... at first I thought it was just lazy drawing but last chapter confirmed it ...

    your main point was Obito going crazy - as I said most of the people don't care about that anymore not matter how ridiculous they find it to be ... the main problem is timeline - which proves kishi hasn't thought about it from the beginning because in that case there wouldn't be such mistakes IF tobi is indeed obito in all the instances we've been provided...

    also Kakashi gainden was fan service - he was the most popular character without back-story ... same goes for Minato
    Why Tobi can't be Obito (or Rin):

    Year 0 for our purposes:
    We know that Madara and Tobi knew each other (confirmed by Kishi) and gave Madara's Rinnegan to Nagato.
    Year 5:
    J-Man trains Nagato
    Year 10:
    Obito is born.Tobi might be using Obito's eye but that is improbable since it would most likely be MS technique BUT considering how much he's been using it he would be blind by now. Itachi used it very sporadically and was blind, same Sasuke-Tobi is spamming it for 17 years and is OK?

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    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity ashher's Avatar
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    Re: People are mad at Kishimoto for no reason.

    Honestly speaking, i find the artwork analysis like 'bag under eyes' ridiculous. The pics are never that consistent even with the known characters. Tsunade is one character who looks quite different from time to time. Obito being izuna would've been the easiest way to explain timelines and some other clues, but that doesn't have any personal connection with any of the main characters, which is as important as maintaining timeline. Even tobi turning out to be izuna wouldn't have explained all the plot points, like kisame recognizing him as madara. In fact not any 'one' known person can satisfactorily explain all the hints about tobi ('tobi's jutsus best explained by obito, kisame's observation best explained by madara/clone, timeline+rinnegan best explained by izuna). So perhaps it can be best explained if tobi turns out to be multiple persons donning the mask and becoming 'tobi' at different times. There is still a chance of things turning out to be like that. Madara and obito's connection is yet to be made clear. So there is still a chance that kishimoto can still turn this into an amazing twist. However the way i see it, choosing any one person as tobi would have made for an unsatisfactory development, and that's as much true for any other candidate as obito. So choosing obito was not necessarily worse than choosing izuna or any other, its merely just as bad.

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    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner Marcin00's Avatar
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    Re: People are mad at Kishimoto for no reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Murdock View Post
    we are not mad that Tobi is Obito we are mad because the way Kishi wrote it, it is impossible ... if he wrote the story more carefully and as you said he planned it (IMO he didn't) there woudln't be those plotholes and timeline impossibilities ... it's not about the fact he is obito ... but because he was lazy when making up the story

    the problem is that if he planned it from the start or at least from the kakashi gaiden why are there so many timeline impossibilities that deny tobi and obito being one and the same person .. I understand he wanted create some mystery but he still could have been more carefull about the story itself especially if he planned it as you are claiming ..
    Agree with this in 100% and personally I'm about to think, that we was in a truly dilema when he should face the truth, who is Tobi anyway?

    And as some of you wrote, the way he created Tobi from the start to the latest chapter dosen't suit Obito really, the one who seek Peace, what is a great ideal btw; but he wanted to archive it in a wrong way, like Danzou and Kishimoto now want to show us it was the wannabe Naruto, Obito and his reason for this all is Rin?! Obito survived, then why he didn't try to escape from the "evil", and where he was when Rin died?

    Obito had one year, should've less cuz' he decided after the death of Rin, and we don't know when she died actually, but then he's agree to the plans of Uchiha Madara or through Zetsu, now I'm except everything from Kishimoto. Next he face his old sensei without any doubt? He went even far to the point to kill Naruto, sensei child, this is why Obito was a wrong pick to be Tobi, one year to get a change of heart is nothing, we can see that on the example of Sasuke.

    Tobi should be a man, who lived enough in the "Naruto" universe to be sure this world can't be saved, when the shinobi system is still active...
    Last edited by Marcin00; September 08, 2012 at 01:35 PM.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member kthy0056's Avatar
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    Re: People are mad at Kishimoto for no reason.

    I don't know what to say about the face, man. I mean, when we used the Tobi's hairstyle as an argument that he's Obito, most of you defused it.
    Again, that was the second point of this thread. We are going to criticize Naruto over the fact that the mangaka made drawing mistakes? You think that Kishimoto is THAT subtle with his art and storytelling?
    Come on, you all knew deep inside that Tobi is (or could be revealed as) Obito. The name, the surprise coffin from Kabuto, his relation to Zetsu (plant-like shinobi ... Obito perished in the Grass country), it was a bit too obvious. Kishi is not master of storytelling layering and abstract narratives.

    Now, that doesn't mean Madara still didn't play his part. Unfortunately (IMO), he's still relevant to the whole business.

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