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Thread: People are mad at Kishimoto for no reason.

  1. #16
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: People are mad at Kishimoto for no reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by kthy0056 View Post
    Did you actually not read both of my posts in this thread?
    How the hell did Kishimoto give fan service to Tobito theorists since he dedicated a few friggin chapters of his manga to the backstory of Kakashi (out of the blue, with no relation to the plot) about 360 chapters ago? He also created Tobi as a character very early during part 2. At the very least you people could admit that Masashi Kishimoto PLAYED with the idea of having Obito as the real identity of Tobi.
    And again with the power argument. Naruto froze in front of Zabuza (bigger deal than those earth nin, but still) and now he's in the top of his game.
    The only reason why Obito at the time was part of the Gaiden was because he was introduced as being part of Kakashi's team in Part I, and is the main reason why Kakashi is who he is. Obito coined the phrase, "those who don't follow the rules are trash, but those who abandon their comrades are worse than trash." He also gave Kakashi his Sharingan. I'm pretty sure if Obito wasn't introduced in a portrait before the Gaiden, Kishi might have drawn a different Uchiha. Obito was introduced mainly because he was one of the most influential person in Kakashi's life, or at least his personality. Kishi out of the blue decided to bring Obito back.

    He created Tobi early on, who claimed to be Madara and who looked more like Madara than Obito before the war. Everything pointed towards Madara, not Obito. Or at least, it pointed to an Uchiha not Obito.

    Naruto froze in front of the chuunin once. That's because he was on his first mission where there was actual danger and enemies. Obito should have been used to missions where he was in danger, especially during the chuunin exam. There's a big difference. And even then, Naruto's at the top of his game mostly because of Kyuubi.

    Quote Originally Posted by ashher View Post
    Honestly speaking, i find the artwork analysis like 'bag under eyes' ridiculous. The pics are never that consistent even with the known characters. Tsunade is one character who looks quite different from time to time. Obito being izuna would've been the easiest way to explain timelines and some other clues, but that doesn't have any personal connection with any of the main characters, which is as important as maintaining timeline. Even tobi turning out to be izuna wouldn't have explained all the plot points, like kisame recognizing him as madara. In fact not any 'one' known person can satisfactorily explain all the hints about tobi ('tobi's jutsus best explained by obito, kisame's observation best explained by madara/clone, timeline+rinnegan best explained by izuna). So perhaps it can be best explained if tobi turns out to be multiple persons donning the mask and becoming 'tobi' at different times. There is still a chance of things turning out to be like that. Madara and obito's connection is yet to be made clear. So there is still a chance that kishimoto can still turn this into an amazing twist. However the way i see it, choosing any one person as tobi would have made for an unsatisfactory development, and that's as much true for any other candidate as obito. So choosing obito was not necessarily worse than choosing izuna or any other, its merely just as bad.
    Then why did Kishi take the time to draw the bags twice before the war? It still screams change of mind for fan service to me, especially since Obito never had bags under his eyes. The right eye area also resembled Madara's a lot more than it did Obito.

    Izuna makes more sense than Obito for various reasons. While he may not have a personal relation to any character, it's no better than Obito only having personal relation to Kakashi.

  2. #17
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Murdock's Avatar
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    Re: People are mad at Kishimoto for no reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by ashher View Post
    Honestly speaking, i find the artwork analysis like 'bag under eyes' ridiculous. The pics are never that consistent even with the known characters. Tsunade is one character who looks quite different from time to time. Obito being izuna would've been the easiest way to explain timelines and some other clues, but that doesn't have any personal connection with any of the main characters, which is as important as maintaining timeline. Even tobi turning out to be izuna wouldn't have explained all the plot points, like kisame recognizing him as madara. In fact not any 'one' known person can satisfactorily explain all the hints about tobi ('tobi's jutsus best explained by obito, kisame's observation best explained by madara/clone, timeline+rinnegan best explained by izuna). So perhaps it can be best explained if tobi turns out to be multiple persons donning the mask and becoming 'tobi' at different times. There is still a chance of things turning out to be like that. Madara and obito's connection is yet to be made clear. So there is still a chance that kishimoto can still turn this into an amazing twist. However the way i see it, choosing any one person as tobi would have made for an unsatisfactory development, and that's as much true for any other candidate as obito. So choosing obito was not necessarily worse than choosing izuna or any other, its merely just as bad.
    actually from timeline position obito is the worst choice same goes for character ... timeline - obito wasn't even born at some of those instances and his character - well it makes less sence than Izuna - who actually has reasons to be pissed ... Obito gave up his eye willingly, he was just brought into some big picture he had no place in .... I agree Izuna wouldn't fit much either since his character was described more peacefully ... but has more motives then obito plus and mainly his person doesn't create timeline impossibilities (if you don't count high age but hey hashirama DNA and you're young again)

    ---------- Post added at 08:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:28 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by kthy0056 View Post
    I don't know what to say about the face, man. I mean, when we used the Tobi's hairstyle as an argument that he's Obito, most of you defused it.
    Again, that was the second point of this thread. We are going to criticize Naruto over the fact that the mangaka made drawing mistakes? You think that Kishimoto is THAT subtle with his art and storytelling?
    Come on, you all knew deep inside that Tobi is (or could be revealed as) Obito. The name, the surprise coffin from Kabuto, his relation to Zetsu (plant-like shinobi ... Obito perished in the Grass country), it was a bit too obvious. Kishi is not master of storytelling layering and abstract narratives.

    Now, that doesn't mean Madara still didn't play his part. Unfortunately (IMO), he's still relevant to the whole business.
    he was in the past ... we've seen that no panel goes to waste - see itachi's blood going into sasuke's eye ... Tobi has been zoomed numerous times and everytime he had that bad under his eye - same as young madara, even in no-close-up frames ... in the last two chapters there is no such thing (bag under the eye) even in close up frames ... it screams change
    Why Tobi can't be Obito (or Rin):

    Year 0 for our purposes:
    We know that Madara and Tobi knew each other (confirmed by Kishi) and gave Madara's Rinnegan to Nagato.
    Year 5:
    J-Man trains Nagato
    Year 10:
    Obito is born.Tobi might be using Obito's eye but that is improbable since it would most likely be MS technique BUT considering how much he's been using it he would be blind by now. Itachi used it very sporadically and was blind, same Sasuke-Tobi is spamming it for 17 years and is OK?

  3. #18
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: People are mad at Kishimoto for no reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by kthy0056 View Post
    I don't know what to say about the face, man. I mean, when we used the Tobi's hairstyle as an argument that he's Obito, most of you defused it.
    Again, that was the second point of this thread. We are going to criticize Naruto over the fact that the mangaka made drawing mistakes? You think that Kishimoto is THAT subtle with his art and storytelling?
    Come on, you all knew deep inside that Tobi is (or could be revealed as) Obito. The name, the surprise coffin from Kabuto, his relation to Zetsu (plant-like shinobi ... Obito perished in the Grass country), it was a bit too obvious. Kishi is not master of storytelling layering and abstract narratives.

    Now, that doesn't mean Madara still didn't play his part. Unfortunately (IMO), he's still relevant to the whole business.
    It's not a drawing mistake, considering Kishi showed bags in two different occasions, and then for the last two chapters, there was no bag at all for every panel Tobi appeared in. Kishi doesn't make that kind of continuous mistake.

    Considering the fact that people thought the leader of Akatsuki was Minato, it's pretty hard to trust the theories or the ability to deduce. <_<

  4. #19
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Murdock's Avatar
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    Re: People are mad at Kishimoto for no reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    It's not a drawing mistake, considering Kishi showed bags in two different occasions, and then for the last two chapters, there was no bag at all for every panel Tobi appeared in. Kishi doesn't make that kind of continuous mistake.

    Considering the fact that people thought the leader of Akatsuki was Minato, it's pretty hard to trust the theories or the ability to deduce. <_<
    that was the most ridiculous thing ever I still remember that ... that was one of the reasons people disregarded obito theory
    Why Tobi can't be Obito (or Rin):

    Year 0 for our purposes:
    We know that Madara and Tobi knew each other (confirmed by Kishi) and gave Madara's Rinnegan to Nagato.
    Year 5:
    J-Man trains Nagato
    Year 10:
    Obito is born.Tobi might be using Obito's eye but that is improbable since it would most likely be MS technique BUT considering how much he's been using it he would be blind by now. Itachi used it very sporadically and was blind, same Sasuke-Tobi is spamming it for 17 years and is OK?

  5. #20
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity ashher's Avatar
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    Re: People are mad at Kishimoto for no reason.

    @ murdock and M3J i see both of you think of obito as 'worst' choice and izuna/madara as 'better' choice. But none of you could argue that either izuna or madara is 'perfect' choice. Or even 'good' choice. They might have been arguably 'less bad', which depends on which points you insist on as reader...timeline, artwork or character relevance, but none are satisfactory. Just like obito is unsatisfactory. That is my point.

  6. #21
    MH Senpai 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Uchiha_Blood's Avatar
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    Re: People are mad at Kishimoto for no reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by kthy0056 View Post
    But that was my point. It wasn't a "kick in the groin" because it was planned quite sometime ago. If anything, putting Madara as the mastermind behind everything is the "kick in the groin" (by the way, Madara still counts as a major player right now, as it seems). What I'm saying is that you're criticizing the wrong part, if anything.
    It was, at least imo:
    many things don't really add up, mainly on the whole Tobito thing, because its the where the manga is focusing now

    Quote Quote:
    Why not? Naruto was inspired by Dragon Ball Z and YuYu Hakusho, not Neon Genesis Evanghelion and Monster. It's a manga where shinobi stood for "guy with magical powers" rather than "guy that's stealthy, manipulative and lethal". It was flashy and featured lots of cliches that we find in shounen all the time.

    I'm not saying that Naruto sucks, I'm saying that Naruto works on a different level than most of you expect, probably because the manga is no longer targeted for your age (even I feel that I'm outgrowing it). It's meant to be enjoyed by people who enjoy The Avengers, not by the people who are looking forward to The Master.
    This is true, but Naruto initially was very good, very very good.
    Kishi showed plenty of times he can draw a beautiful story, and that's mosty why many, me included, are so disillusioned.
    Let's not forget that Kishi birthed characters like Itachi, Gaara, Gai, Kakashi, Yondaime, Danzou.
    It seems like he doesn't care anymore

    Quote Quote:


    [edit]
    Besides, many holes could be handwaved easily if you remember what manga you are reading.
    For example, some people wonder how did Obito get to be so evil and powerful (enough to face Minato) in such a short time (iirc, we don't know how much time did it pass since his apparent demise, 2 or 3 years maybe). Well, Obito is an Uchiha who fell under the corruption of hatred ... sounds familiar?
    It does, because it is. Sasuke in a few years went from a competent genin to one of the most dangerous shinobi in the world, also he's a merciless villain at this point. On a similar note, at a similar age, Itachi murdered the entire clan. Gaara was, as a kid, the secret weapon in the invasion aganst Konoha. By the time he was 15, he was a kage. Kakashi was jonin when he was 13 years old.
    Why are we stuck up on this plot point? Kids and teenagers have proven themselves to be potentially powerful, especially when they are driven by hatred or love/the will of fire. If we put things up together such as the fact that Obito is an Uchiha and that Madara probably taught him a few tricks, it's not as insane as you may think.
    Sasuke, despite what many may thing, was nowhere near Yondaime at age 16.
    Obito, at 14, not only matched Yondaime in combat, but controlled Kyuubi with a 3-tomoe Sharingan, knew how to undone one of the most well-made Fuuinjutsu in history with an enormous seal ritual and basically almost destroyed a village by himself thanks to his actions.
    And he possessed unworldy knowledge.
    Kakashi and Itachi were nothing like that at that age, and the three I mentioned ( Sasuke, Itachi and Kakashi ) are amongst the greatest prodigies the Uchihas and Konoha ever had.
    Tobi being that good, at age 14, is acceptable?
    No sir.

  7. #22
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member kthy0056's Avatar
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    Re: People are mad at Kishimoto for no reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Considering the fact that people thought the leader of Akatsuki was Minato, it's pretty hard to trust the theories or the ability to deduce. <_<
    Fair enough, but you do realize that the Akatsuki leader (Deva Pain) also contradicts your statement, right?
    http://www.mangareader.net/93-243-20...apter-238.html
    http://www.mangareader.net/93-358-20...apter-353.html
    Look at the eyes. As you can see, the ones in chapter 238 look like the type of eyes Kurenai and her father had (another one of the theories before the reveal) and Kishi changed it in the second part. What did you say something about mistakes?

  8. #23
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Murdock's Avatar
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    Re: People are mad at Kishimoto for no reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by ashher View Post
    @ murdock and M3J i see both of you think of obito as 'worst' choice and izuna/madara as 'better' choice. But none of you could argue that either izuna or madara is 'perfect' choice. Or even 'good' choice. They might have been arguably 'less bad', which depends on which points you insist on as reader...timeline, artwork or character relevance, but none are satisfactory. Just like obito is unsatisfactory. That is my point.
    I agree none of these characters make sence - well madara did make sence but since he was introduced again it ceased to make sence ...

    but if you take into account all the facts we know there are basically two at the moment Izuna and Obito - and Izuna makes more sence because he has better motives than obito and fits timeline ...

    but lets compare (A stands for artwork, C for character, T for timeline) - lets use binary system fits (1) or doesn't fit (0)

    Madara (A - 1, C - 1, T - 1)
    Izuna (A - 0, C - 0, T - 1)
    Obito (A - 0, C - 0, T - 0)

    In my book Obito is the least logical choice based on the way manga was written

    ---------- Post added at 08:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:50 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by kthy0056 View Post
    Fair enough, but you do realize that the Akatsuki leader (Deva Pain) also contradicts your statement, right?
    http://www.mangareader.net/93-243-20...apter-238.html
    http://www.mangareader.net/93-358-20...apter-353.html
    Look at the eyes. As you can see, the ones in chapter 238 look like the type of eyes Kurenai and her father had (another one of the theories before the reveal) and Kishi changed it in the second part. What did you say something about mistakes?
    yes he did - it was one frame the rest were consistent ... problem is Tobi was consistently the same even in recent events as he was in the beginning he changes just recently ... If it was one instance loooong ago I would be ok but it wasn't
    Why Tobi can't be Obito (or Rin):

    Year 0 for our purposes:
    We know that Madara and Tobi knew each other (confirmed by Kishi) and gave Madara's Rinnegan to Nagato.
    Year 5:
    J-Man trains Nagato
    Year 10:
    Obito is born.Tobi might be using Obito's eye but that is improbable since it would most likely be MS technique BUT considering how much he's been using it he would be blind by now. Itachi used it very sporadically and was blind, same Sasuke-Tobi is spamming it for 17 years and is OK?

  9. #24
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member kthy0056's Avatar
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    Re: People are mad at Kishimoto for no reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    This is true, but Naruto initially was very good, very very good.
    Kishi showed plenty of times he can draw a beautiful story, and that's mosty why many, me included, are so disillusioned.
    Let's not forget that Kishi birthed characters like Itachi, Gaara, Gai, Kakashi, Yondaime, Danzou.
    It seems like he doesn't care anymore
    See, this is the kind of stuff that I was talking in the other thread as well. You critcize Naruto like it's some piece of important literature, but you're not even doing it properly.
    Why were most of the characters that you mentioned interesting? Just because they were brooding and "bad-ass"?
    Let's be honest, Naruto was always subpar in terms of proper writing (maybe without the Zabuza arc, that was pretty good overall). It was an action set piece full of shyamalan level of twists and poorly developed characters. Even the lore itself kept cracking under its own pressure all the time.
    But it was fun, it was tense and interesting for me when I was 12 years old. Now, I mostly shut my brain off and enjoy it for what it is.


    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Sasuke, despite what many may thing, was nowhere near Yondaime at age 16.
    Sasuke at age 16 is Sasuke as we see him today, with EMS, who killed Danzou and went straight against 5 kages. I don't think the fight would be that easy for Minato, especially since Sasuke (if he was there instead of Tobi) would come prepared and the Hokage would not know much about his abilities.
    Quote Quote:
    Kakashi and Itachi were nothing like that at that age, and the three I mentioned ( Sasuke, Itachi and Kakashi ) are amongst the greatest prodigies the Uchihas and Konoha ever had.[/spoiler]
    Well, Itachi did technically murder all the Uchihas at that age, which I think is pretty huge of an acomplishment.

    ---------- Post added at 08:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:59 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Murdock View Post
    problem is Tobi was consistently the same even in recent events as he was in the beginning he changes just recently
    uhm ... no? That was what made the whole thing fun for me
    Tobi was never the same. He was goofy at first (like Obito), He had Sharingan next, he had a different mask and long hair while meeting Itachi (this might be Madara btw, they probably share the persona or something like that), he had the SAME different mask but short hair while fighting Minato, he had two sharingan eyes while fighting Konan and then he was finally revealed to be Obito.

  10. #25
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: People are mad at Kishimoto for no reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by ashher View Post
    @ murdock and M3J i see both of you think of obito as 'worst' choice and izuna/madara as 'better' choice. But none of you could argue that either izuna or madara is 'perfect' choice. Or even 'good' choice. They might have been arguably 'less bad', which depends on which points you insist on as reader...timeline, artwork or character relevance, but none are satisfactory. Just like obito is unsatisfactory. That is my point.
    Madara was actually the perfect choice, or at least he or Izuna were good choice. I'm not talking about artwork itself, but the artwork is relevant to consistency. It's like giving Naruto black hair and making him a Senju just to mirror Hashirama vs. Madara in Naruto vs. Sasuke. I prefer consistency, which includes timeline and artwork. If Obito being TObi made sense or was consistent, I would accept it grudgingly.

    Character relevance isn't the most important thing, Kishi can establish that at any time. Madara is still arguably the most relevant character next to Naruto because he helped make the world the way it is. He and Hashirama formed Konoha, and as we're learning now, Madara had a big part in Nagato's life and the Uchiha Massacre. If it weren't for him, Naruto might still have had parents. Tobi himself had no relation to Naruto whatsoever until we saw that he's the main reason why Kushina and Minato are dead, effectively robbing Naruto of his childhood and for a long time, happiness. So if Tobi is Obito, his relation to Naruto is still the same, with the addition of his relation to Kakashi and thanks to the Uchiha Massacre, to Sasuke. Tobi either way has character relevance regardless of who he is, at least to Naruto and Sasuke.

    Quote Originally Posted by kthy0056 View Post
    Fair enough, but you do realize that the Akatsuki leader (Deva Pain) also contradicts your statement, right?
    http://www.mangareader.net/93-243-20...apter-238.html
    http://www.mangareader.net/93-358-20...apter-353.html
    Look at the eyes. As you can see, the ones in chapter 238 look like the type of eyes Kurenai and her father had (another one of the theories before the reveal) and Kishi changed it in the second part. What did you say something about mistakes?
    No, he supports my statement that Kishi changed his mind. Kishi apparently decided on giving the leader of Akatsuki ripples that didn't extend to the entire eyeballs, but he changed his mind after that and gave the leader the name of Pain, Rinnegan, and made him into someone who used to be good but decided ends justify the means. That was no mistake, that was a change of mind, like Kishi had with Tobi.

    I mean, Kishi changed the rotating Sharingan tomoes to it staying still, and he either made a mistake or changed Itachi's Mangekyo design as well. Though, we can't compare artwork from Part I to Part II as it's pretty much different. Minato had tons of hair in Part I, but his hair was more like Naruto's in Part II.

    If Kishi showed bag under Tobi's eye in one panel and one scene, and the rest of his appearance lacked bag, then I wouldn't have said he changed his mind. It would just be a mistake in artwork. But teh fact is, Kishi definitely removed the bag as he wouldn't make an error for this long.

  11. #26
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: People are mad at Kishimoto for no reason.

    I am not mad at Kishi, i am really enjoing this manga and its my favoite but Tobi=Obito is just crep if you ask me. But you need to learn to take what you get and enjoy what you can.

  12. #27
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member IChallengeYou!'s Avatar
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    Re: People are mad at Kishimoto for no reason.

    im mad because i can be mad

    if obito mad and want erase world then he mad so why i cant be mad? i can i will be nothing you can do about it kishimoto sucks and obito sucks even harder

    i mad because they so bad, bro

    good night

  13. #28
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    Re: People are mad at Kishimoto for no reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood
    Sasuke, despite what many may thing, was nowhere near Yondaime at age 16.
    Your kidding right? Sasuke as of the current Manga is still only 16, with his emotions in check is likely the favorite to win a battle against Minato. He still has EMS (to show), and more power ups to come. (Rinnengan,perfect sasanoo). Not to mention the power he will gain from the scroll.

  14. #29
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    Re: People are mad at Kishimoto for no reason.

    OP dude give me a break ... edo tensei ? i"m ok with ressing one guy ,2 or even 10 people
    but when you go SOLO raid the world with edo tensei summons then no , just no

    ---------- Post added at 04:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:20 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Sasuke View Post
    Your kidding right? Sasuke as of the current Manga is still only 16, with his emotions in check is likely the favorite to win a battle against Minato. He still has EMS (to show), and more power ups to come. (Rinnengan,perfect sasanoo). Not to mention the power he will gain from the scroll.
    the fourth would beat sasuke in 10 seconds... sasuke + itachi vs kabuto showed that . he has the power to win but his bran is just hatred condensed so much that it became matter.
    but yeah you got the idea right ... kishi will keep giving him free power ups and he might become a super sayan bu the end of the manga ... even lameasses like suigetsu can find such a scroll . damn , probably the reason no one found such scroll before , onlly someone as mighty and intelligent as suigetsu could find such a scroll
    carry on kishi bro
    THE UCHIHA LOGIC:
    "brother follows hiw on path? destroy konoha " uchiha sasuke
    "the village wants you not to interfere with politics? coup-d'etat" uchiha fugaku
    "coup-d'etat on the way? obliterate entire clan" uchiha itachi
    "clan wants to make peace? destroy everyone everywhere" uchiha madara
    "10 years old crush dead?infinite tsukyumi" uchiha obito



  15. #30
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    Re: People are mad at Kishimoto for no reason.

    Sasuke is not stuck on the hatred stuff anymore, his current quest for answers prove that. The power ups are coming, whether they're free or not is a different story. By the time he is done powering up very few shinobi will be in his league and Minato will not be one of them, all whlie he is still at the sweet age of sixteen.

    Suigestu found the scroll to give us a reason for team hawk to reunite.

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