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Translations: Gintama 507 (2)
Then 13 years old Neji.
The ones I mentioned were/are interesting because they are well-written characters.
Of course how well a character is liked is based on one's opinion. How a character doesn't fit timeline criterias or is simply illogicas isn't based on one's opinion, is based on facts.
Just like its a fact that Kishi retconned that its possible to free himself from Edo Tensei, since the creator of the jutsu didn't, and just like Madara he had free will, just to make a random example of how this arc produced bullshit after bullshit.
I do believe that at least 1 year passed from when Hebi Sasuke was introduced, and even then it is Sasuke.Quote:
16 years old.
Not Obito, untalented mangled 14 years old failure.
Murdering the Uchiha clan <<<< what Tobi did back then.
Also, ironically, Itachi was helped from Tobi himself, so you can't even say that he did it himself.
And even then I don't believe that, as a shinobi, he is superior to Yondaime:
skill-wise, yes of course.
For the rest? I don't think so, but hey its just me
^ This one is another lame thing Kishi done in this arc, I mean seriously? Juugo punches a wall, and finds a random scroll that can make Taka rule the world ?Quote:
Last edited by Uchiha_Blood; September 08, 2012 at 05:59 PM.
No. You don't really know if sasuke will gain a power ups in his sweet age of sixteen. And i doubt he will going to gain his rinnegan in his sweet age of sixteen. And i doubt he will surpass minato just because of the scroll that suigetsu found.
Sasuke is still nowhere in the same level of minato. And i think kishi has still more surprises about minato and his caliber.
My bad, you just said 16 year old Sasuke.Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood
For the rest of what?I agree, but Sasuke has to have something different form Madara and Itachi right?Quote:
I meant the eye ... he was consistent and PRECISE until very recentely and now he is precise too because he is consistently drawing him without the bag under his eye ... it's fishyQuote:
Intelligence, coolness, the ability to make important decisions, general ingenuity, finesse.
The only thing I would say Sasuke has more than him are determination ( maybe, a tie ) and stuborness
True, I still want him to indipendently develop the Elder Son's eyes, that swirly thing would look pretty cool on Sasuke and Kishi could create a whole new set of eye powers for itQuote:
as for Minato level, we can just agree to disagree. I mean whats the point in debating about that here?
---------- Post added at 06:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:16 PM ----------
I think more like 5 or 6 months has passed.Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood
I want disagree with that until i see Sasuke in another battle after coming to his senses.Quote:It would be cool, but the odds of Sasuke gaining the elders sons eyes are very very slim. The manga hasn't ever carried a conversation about them, or mentioning them outside of that ONE photo they showed of the elder son.Quote:
I haven't read the whole thread but I'm glad that someone started this discsussion.
In my opinion, the tobi=obito theory was just as obvious as it is the fact that there is something more than meets the eye about the whole uchiha history... WE WILL HAVE A PROPER ANSWER TO ALL OF OUR QUESTIONS and I'm sure that everything will be perfectly matching in terms of timeline. People seem to forget the fact that Kishi has more than 13 years of experience as a mangaka on his side. I refuse to think that this story is as poorly written as it appears right in this moment. Keep the faith is what I say!!! It's not possible that the plot is worse than what everyone on this forum could have written. This kind of "disappointment" we're experiencing right now will only serve to build more epicness for the series finale...because it'll be epic we all know it. Kishi would be the foolest person walking on earth if he wasted his chance to finish this manga in the most epic way ever...and we know he's not!
So keep your criticism for when the story is concluded. you won't be disappointed!!!!
Also I woud like to point out that although some chapter are indeed "useles" or " a waste of time" if you re-read the whole pack of chapters in a row, the story is smooth and brilliant imho. But I'll have to admit that it's frustrating to wait one whole week to get 14+ pages of flashbacks...
And actually, it would have been useless either way since Hiruzen was gonna seal his soul in the Death Reaper.
As a shinobi, I would say Kakashi's one of the best. He's basically versatile and can do almost everything but sense chakra. I don't think even Minato has shown the kind of versatility that Kakashi has, and Itachi certainly hasn't in the few appearances he's made. Though in terms of fighting, he, Kakashi, and Sasuke are quite possibly versatile as they can employ ninjutsu, taijutsu, and genjutsu.Quote:
Though, I still stick by my statement that Minato's the deadliest ninja and one of the most dangerous.
In any way, there are plenty of reasons why people are mad at Kishi. Obito being Tobi creates a lot of hole. Why didn't Madara teach Obito Edo Tensei and make an army of hte undead? Even wtih Madara as his teacher, Obito improved way too much and recovered a bit too quickly in a year or two, something that neither Sasuke nor Naruto did in three years. And both improved quite a bit, although Sasuke's growth was superior. Too many unexplainable factors.
Well, kthy0056, here's the thing. They aren't mad for no reason. Now imagine this:
- You are a person who has spent huge amounts of time posting on a Naruto forum.
- You have spent years arguing against Tobi being Obito.
- You are very invested in Naruto, you may even moderate a forum on it.
- You have painstakingly analyzed (1) shadows on rocks, (2) bags underneath eyes, (3) precise timelines before the author has fully revealed them.
Then Naruto chapter 599 arrives. Tobi = Obito. Now what do you do???
You accept what's happened, and recognize that tons of strong hints were given, along with many red-herrings. "Obito, huh? Okay." You shrug, go about your day, and it doesn't matter to you all that much.
You post comments about how it does work for the story, since Obito's more connected to the main characters, and the inconsistencies (which certainly wouldn't be explained before the reveal!) were set up to trick you into thinking it wasn't him.
You do not accept what's happened, and feel angry about it. Angry that you were wrong. Angry at anyone who was right. Angry that all the red-herrings thrown in don't make sense yet, without an explanation from the author. Angry that Naruto is a shounen, merely a children's story, when you had hoped it was more.
You post comments about how it's impossible, and how displeased you are at the author and those who don't share your anger.
Human nature is to choose B. This is called the sunk cost phenomenon. If you are already heavily invested in something (in this case, the idea that Tobi =/= Obito) then you are likely to continue with that idea. Because if you gave up on it, all your effort and arguments against it would have been for nothing. So people will choose B.
So, kthy0056, your posts simply increase the passion with which people choose B. You (or anyone else) will not change their minds. That is just the way it is.
Last edited by Cyrs; September 08, 2012 at 09:47 PM.
Well, i do agree that a lot of people are mad at kishi for no reason. Just like what he did to tobi being obito. Butfor me, t'was an amazing twist. Tobi being obito isnt imposible at all nor kishi contradicting his story. They forgetting something that in naruto world, hashirama's dna can be used as eye supplement, body resistance multivitamins, immortality pills and height increase supplement.
Maybe for kishi, some plot holes, twist, drawing error and timeline are not meant to be understood but to be accepted.
Try as you might to make those who are against Obito being Tobi look bad, but the fact is... it's illogical. That's the main issue. Lack of bag under the right eye when it was there shows that Kishi changed his mind... and if you want to ignore it just so you can feel right, go ahead. The only person that can change my mind is Kishi, and only if he makes the whole thing logical, and it makes sense.
Whatever you want to say, the only reason I'm against this theory is because it makes no sense and is illogical, as well as obvious fan service.
I'm with M3J on this one.
As of right now, Obito being Tobi makes no sense.
I, however, am not "mad" or anything. Maybe disappointed.
Obviously, there is a lot of explaining that needs to be done.
It's a little weird...Obito is clearly an integral part of the plot, but at the same time the name doesn't seem to matter anymore to Tobi.
And yet at the same time a lot of Tobi's "anger" seems to come from the fact that he is Obito. And yet at the same time, he's hidden his face and hasn't even acknowledged Kakashi until a few chapters ago.
So, what I think is that before anyone actually does get mad, we give Kishimoto a chance to explain the situation.
Since knowing the whole story would make us better judges of it.
And if after all is said and done and it turns out Obito and Sasuke are long lost brothers, Madara is the subject of their unrequited homosexual love, and Sakura is actually the most powerful shinobi in all of shinobi-dom, then we can really be mad.
If your answer to that question is "magic", then the entire conversation is pointless. Kishimoto is an escapist author that writes a manga for the tween audience. Even by shounen standards Naruto is not mature and deep. He's not thinking things through as much as you think he does.
That's what you don't understand. Naruto was not an achievement in storytelling in Part 1, in Part 2, before this war, ever. Your mind(I don't mean just you, M3J ... I mean everyone) is simply clouded by nostalgia of the good memories when most of you enjoyed the manga for what it was. Not to mention how lots of people criticized various stuff before the war as well since part 2. Just go back in the archive and see the same kind of attitude exhibited by other people.
Also, compare this page with this one. See how many inconsistencies and problems Naruto has as opposed to 20th Century Boys (sure, Naruto has a larger fanbase, but still), a manga that's usually regarded as by most people.
The anger is pointless once you realize that.
And fan service? I'm not aware of any Obito fans, although maybe there were some. Logically, I don't see how focus on a character who has never polled very high on Naruto popularity contests would be "fan service."
Common sense? Logic? The main character is supposed to be a ninja, yet wears a bright orange jumpsuit and attacks with bright glowing energy balls while shouting the name of the attack... That is just the tip of the iceberg of crap that doesn't make any goddamn sense. I could go on for weeks. But are you complain about things like that? No.
The funny thing is, people are so quick to rationalize away stuff like that. But not for Tobi's identity? You only rationalize things when it suits you. And you are being illogical because of that.
I cannot claim to be someone who has always declared from day 1 that Tobi is Obito. It never really mattered to me, nor was I a big fan of Naruto. But I will give you my exact thoughts as I read the manga:
Chapter 8: "Oh, Kakashi's friend died? I wonder if we'll get to see what happened, it seems to be pretty important to the series."
Chapter 238: "Ah, we finally get to see what happened to his friend, Obito."
Chapter 244: "Killed by a rock? What? With a medic ninja right there wouldn't he pull through? Well whatever, RIP."
Chapter 281: "Hey, that looks waaaay too much like Obito. The hair, personality, the eye not taken by Kakashi... Maybe he survived somehow and is spying on Akatsuki while working for Konoha or something."
Chapter 364: "Wait... did Tobi say he was Madara or just had his power, like his chakra or something? I guess it could still be Obito, but I don't think he'd be a bad guy. Either way, he does have a Sharingan in the right eye."
Chapter 397: "Woah, look at those scars... or are those wrinkles? I thought Madara had big ol' bags under his eyes, that doesn't quite look the same, for some reason. I guess Obito would have scars on that side of his face, but Tobi's saying he's Madara. But he keeps the mask on, so who knows. Could be anyone I guess."
Chapter 475: "Now we know for sure that Danzo isn't Tobi, it really was a red-herring after all. He did have a Sharingan under those bandages though."
Chapter 501: "How the heck does Tobi know so much about Minato's ability??"
Chapter 502: "So Tobi didn't claim to be Madara... but he said Madara wasn't dead? Huh. I guess he could be anyone at this point."
Chapter 559: "Madara was Kabuto's trump card, no surprise. So Tobi's not the real Madara. Were the Rinnegan his originally? Was he actually Izuna?"
Chapter 594: "Wait a sec... why's he saying that stuff to Kakashi and Guy? Don't tell me..."
Chapter 595: "It's Obito. Not sure how, but that's him."
Chapter 596: "Definitely Obito. I guess that stuff about being Madara was a huge red-herring."
Chapter 597: "Okay, we get it, it's Obito. Take off the mask and give us an explanation."
Chapter 598: "Mask's off. That's crazy that he attacked Minato. Well, he was taller than Kakashi in the gaiden."
Chapter 599: "Yes, we knew it was Obito from like 5 chapters ago. Explain please. Wait, why is Minato already Hokage?"
Chapter 600: "We get that he's Obito, Madara doesn't need to say it. Explain please. Well, I guess Hashirama genes + space/time dimension thing would explain it."
There you go. I'm out.