Let's Talk About Why Your Tobito "Plotholes" Aren't Plotholes

[SlayerKisame]

@Mods: Please don't merge this into anti-Tobito threads, it's getting annoying when your post is buried in a muddied sea and gets completely overlooked. I made this thread for a completely different reason, that contrary to popular belief, there's nothing wrong with Tobito and every reason to believe it.


Long post incoming...but I am going to hopefully put a rest to the "plotholes" you guys talk about after hearing it from those youtubers.

On many Naruto forums I have debated with people over their supposed plotholes since the Tobito reveal. But they weren't plotholes. At times when I drove people into a corner, they just didn't respond. These "plotholes"...They could be explained, in fact, these "plotholes" has so much room for explanation, you almost wonder whether they are just trying to get mad at Kishimoto for not revealing Tobi to be the character they guessed or not. I've watched youtube reviews, I've heard audio-reviews, I've read hundreds of posts on the subject but they still haven't convinced me.

So what is a plothole? It's something that has been inconsistent with fact and has absolutely no room for explanation. Yes, hear that last part. NO ROOM for explanation. You see, if something can be explained with genjutsu and only genjutsu, then it was genjutsu. Use common sense for these things.

Tobi being Obito is not a plothole. Kishimoto didn't just get up and decide this, it was almost obvious from day 1. Just look at everything in retrospect. Kakashi Gaiden in between part 1 and 2. Tobi not taking his mask off after revealing himself to be Madara. The hair. The one eye hole. This wasn't decided on a whim. It was never changed. It just was... but let's get to the serious business.

Tobito theorists have been coming up with answers years prior to the reveal. Just now, some of you are coming up with "Tobi was Madara at one point" and taking credit for it, and also taking credit for "taking care of some of the plotholes"...LOL, we posted about that a million times. How did that get overlooked? The more Kishimoto opens the explanation to Obito up, the more you guys will probably take credit for theorizing things we've been guessing for YEARS!!

Okay, let's take a large portion of those "timeline plotholes" and throw them in the trash right now. Keep in mind, databook is not the highest level of canon. If Kishimoto doesn't even remain consistent with it, why should it be used in any debate? If there is anything Kishi should retcon, shouldn't it be some outside-publication nobody will read? The same databook that said Kurenai and Itachi had the same level of genjutsu? The same databook that 97% of fans don't even buy let alone read at a library? There is no reason to use the databook in arguments when 99% of average people are going to be either watching or reading Naruto to the end, not even knowing that databooks exist. You see, databooks are not relevant. Years from now, people will be watching some remastered filler-free Naruto and not even know about this crackpot "databook". With that reasoning, your plotholes don't even exist to average fans.

So the most common thing that is brought up is the personality U-turn. I still can't imagine how it is a plothole. How fast did Sasuke get changed? Why can't Obito change that fast? Why can't traumatic events change him? A disgusting truth of the ninja world? Why can't he lie about Rin being the main reason? This is no plothole, guys. It's called mental health and it changes erratically! Don't trick yourself into thinking there is no possible motive for this. How do you know Obito's parents weren't killed in front of him? How do you know he didn't meet someone like Rin during the war and she got killed? See, these might seem like crazy possibilities, but it goes back to "room for explanation". If these things are possible, then that is an explanation.

Then there's the "how can obito get that strong" plothole. Unbelievable people would even say this. Obito trained with Madara, it's that obvious. We all know how strong Madara is, there's nothing wrong with him being able to make a fine ninja like Obito. How could you be shocked at Obito's growth in power when Madara, who can summon asteroids out of nowhere, is allianced with him. Remember, if there's room for explanation then it's not a plothole.

The whole Kisame thing where he revealed both Tobi's (short hair and long hair) to be the same person can also be explained with one thing: genjutsu. Do you remember that first scene, where Kisame looked directly at Tobi's "glowing sharingan"? Do you also remember that one scene with Itachi, Kisame, Kakashi, Kurenai, and Asuma, where Kakashi specifically said not to look into Itachi's sharingan because they would be trapped in a genjutsu? It's that easy to get trapped into genjutsu and we've seen it multiple times.

I'm not even sure why this is warranted as a plothole, but I guess some people don't understand "acting". You see, when someone says they are someone else and says a bunch of things that only that someone could have done, then they were probably referring to what that person did. Did that sound confusing? I bet it did. I'm saying that whatever Obito said while he was lying about being Madara were things that Madara said and did. For instance, Obito saying he convinced Yahiko to form Akatsuki and gave Nagato the rinnegan...those were things that Madara did. Again, use common sense. This isn't rocket science!

There's one that is particularly striking to me...the one where Madara says he awakened the rinnegan shortly before his death. And it was said that Nagato was given a pair of rinnegans. So, if Nagato was born before Obito and there was a huge time gap between the time Nagato got his rinnegan and Obito's birth, then how was Madara able to meet and train Obito? I can explain this easily. Where was it said that Madara was able to awaken only one set of rinnegan? How do we know he didn't awaken two sets? What if Madara gave Nagato his eyes and told him to resurrect him later? Do we even know how you awaken the rinnegan? Exactly, we don't.

You see, if there is room for explanation, it's not a plothole. The simple fact is that many of you aren't being as open-minded as you can. So, I guess, I challenge you. I've heard of practically everything. I challenge you to give me a "plothole", I really do. Some of you need to be desensitized from this plotholes mindset, some you seriously need to!

[Krina29]

Here, plot no jutsu:
Do you have any idea how long I've waited for this moment? -Tobi when he went for Kurama
A 16 years old saying that? After 1-2 years passed?Are 2 years such a huge span of time to wait?
I don't think so.Here is the link:
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/501/7

---------- Post added at 12:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:41 AM ----------

And how about this?Why would Obito have this reaction when talking about Izuna?
Link: http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/399/4

[SlayerKisame]

Here, plot no jutsu:
Do you have any idea how long I've waited for this moment? -Tobi when he went for Kurama
A 16 years old saying that? After 1-2 years passed?Are 2 years such a huge span of time to wait?
I don't think so.Here is the link:
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/501/7

---------- Post added at 12:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:41 AM ----------

And how about this?Why would Obito have this reaction when talking about Izuna?
Link: http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/399/4

1. How exactly is that a plothole? What you consider to be long is not what someone else considers to be long. So 20-24 months could've been extremely long for Obito. Not even close to a plothole. He may have decided this mission for a long time but couldn't do anything until the seal was weak (aka; when Kushina becomes gives birth).

2. So what if Obito heard the story in detail when Madara was talking about his brother and felt bad having to remember the gruesome details? Again, not even close to being a plothole.

It's sad how some of you even think these are plotholes. I'm appalled, really.

[Krina29]

1. How exactly is that a plothole? What you consider to be long is not what someone else considers to be long. So 24 months could be long. Not even close to a plothole.

2. So what if Obito heard the story in detail when Madara was talking about his brother and felt bad having to remember the gruesome details? Again, not even close to being a plothole.

It's sad how some of you even think these are plotholes. I'm appalled, really.

These are not an explanaiton

[Exodi]

I've said this before: We still don't know the whole story.

It's really that simple. It's like back when Jiraiya figured out who Pain was and everyone desperately tried to figure it out. We all guessed that the numbers J-man left behind had to do with his book, but we never would've guessed anything about a character named Nagato until Kishimoto showed us so.

I feel it's the same way here. I will admit, though, that Tobi being Obito was obvious, but I figured it was so obvious as to be a fake. That wasn't the case.....obviously.

On the other hand, since we really don't have the full explanation, we all have every right to not fully believe Tobi is Obito. After all, he was a pretty convincing Madara, too. And since Naruto is a universe where literally any ninja can be copied almost completely (e.g Kisame/Neji), then there still is doubt.

So yeah....I suppose technically it's not a plothole, since it hasn't been fully explained yet. Let's hope the explanation isn't something so weak as genjutsu.

[SlayerKisame]

These are not an explanaiton

Yes, they are explanations. Stop being ignorant, I'm sorry, but that's how you're coming off as. You haven't even tried responding. What I said just went through one of your ears and out the other.

Here we go again.

1. You think this one is a plothole because you, subjectively, think 2 years isn't a long time. Cool, I think it is. Obito thinks it is. So this is a plothole because of personal feelings?

2. You think somebody can't have feelings? They aren't allowed to cringe at the thought of a lost friend's friend? This is a plothole simply because you don't think Obito shouldn't have reacted to such a sad tale? This moment in the manga was purposely constructed in a such a way that it would draw confusion. The fact is that he felt bad for Madara.

[Exodi]

Yes, they are explanations. Stop being ignorant, I'm sorry, but that's how you're coming off as. You haven't even tried responding. What I said just went through one of your ears and out the other.

Here we go again.

1. You think this one is a plothole because you, subjectively, think 2 years isn't a long time. Cool, I think it is. Obito thinks it is. So this is a plothole because of personal feelings?

2. You think somebody can't have feelings? They aren't allowed to cringe at the thought of a lost friend's friend? This is a plothole simply because you don't think Obito shouldn't have reacted to such a sad tale? This moment in the manga was purposely constructed in a such a way that it would draw confusion. The fact is that he felt bad for Madara.

Semantics. That is not an explanation. You can say that about any period of time and call it an explanation.

[SlayerKisame]

Semantics. That is not an explanation. You can say that about any period of time and call it an explanation.

Yes, but "It is a plothole because I think 2 years isn't a long time" is less than equally as constitutional as an explanation for a plothole. Obito thought it was a long time. You didn't. Solved.

[Krina29]

@SlayerKisame: Explain all of this and then I will acknowledge Tobi being Obito.

Ideals

The first, most important point of them all.
What make Obito ( a Naruto wannabe ) change idea in the time span of 1 or 2 years?
The same Obito believing in heroes and giving Kakashi his famous phrase, why would he make a speech on how the world doesn't need any heroes?.
We can easily see how Tobi and Obito share two, very different ideals, and unless he was brainwashed by someone, it would make no sense whatsoever for such a radical change.

Also, why harbour such a hate for his former sensei, his wife and his child to the point of covering the latter with paper bombs?
The same Yondaime that teached him and Kakashi about teamwork?
Remember Obito calling Kakashi captain as a sign of peace because Yondaime explained to him that Kakashi's life was the hardest of them all, asking him to understand where he comes from?

Timeline

We know the Kyuubi's attack happened 1, 2 years at best after Kakashi's Gaiden, since Kakashi and Gai seem 14, 15 at best.
Here we see how an adult physique ( Kurenai's father ) isn't even comparable to the kids, while here we see Tobi having the same physique as Yondaime.
Obito never was renowed to have a peculiar height or bulk ( he seems on the short side ), so it doesn't make sense for him to obtain the body of an adult in a 1-2 years span.
Still it isn't a valid point, so I'll provide others:

Do you have any idea how long I've waited for this moment?
A 16 years old saying that? After 1-2 years passed?
Are 2 years such a huge span of time to wait?
But wait, there is more:

The same Tobi that Kabuto knows not to be the real Madara saying, in front of Kabuto and Zetsu, both knowing his real identity, that he obtained Hashirama's tissue during that battle?
Maybe I forgot something, but as I recall, Hashirama died way before Obito was even born.
But there is more still.

Tobi was the one that "created" Akatsuki, and the one to gave Nagato the Rin'negan, the same Nagato Madara seem to know.
Wasn't Nagato, like, a lot older than Obito? He was Jiraiya's student, meaning he should have at least Yondaime's age, if not older.

Not counting also his knowledge about both Uchiha's jutsus and Uchiha's history, why would Obito have this reaction when talking about Izuna?
It was the only reaction he had, even when talking about the Uchiha's massacre or his banishment he was impassible.
Why then responding to Izuna?

Last proof?
Madara personally knows Tobi, the same Madara that was resurrected by Edo Tensei at the same state of his death, meaning Madara likely "died" around 30-40 years of age, judging by his overall aspect.
Was Obito even born? Remember, at Madara and Hashirama's prime an old fart like Hiruzen was just a kid

Ability

We know that Obito was a funny guy, but he was no genius, hell he was pretty average.
Yet the same Obito, in 2 years, managed to:

-gain enormous knowledge on seals
-Managing to control the Kyuubi with a 3 tomoe Sharingan, a feat that only Madara Uchiha can apparently do
-Making a contract with Kyuubi
-Having knowledge, skills and abilities that no normal ninja can have, associating him to Madara once again.
-Having superior abilities than Yondaime, someone hailed as the greatest prodigy of his era, matching him in combat while controlling the Kyuubi at the same time
-Already making plans for Infinite Tsukuyomi, so gaining knowledge on Rikudou Sennin and the Juubi, knowledge being long forgotten

Seems pretty unbelievable to me.

Conclusions

Unless severe PIS were to be exploited, Tobi being Obito should be impossible, unless this is, as many before have said, Obito's lifeless body being the host of Madara's eyes, and adapted through Zetsu's substance.
Or something outrageous like time-travel, or the like.
But knowing Kishi everything is possible

---------- Post added at 01:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:05 AM ----------

Sorry but for now this still stands ALL OF IT

[SlayerKisame]

@SlayerKisame: Explain all of this and then I will acknowledge Tobi being Obito.

But again, I already did. In fact, that was one of the many posts I was reading while writing my post. I explained timeline, ideals, and abilities. I might have to report your posts since you continue to derail it with things I've already explained.

[Exodi]

Yes, but "It is a plothole because I think 2 years isn't a long time" is less than equally as constitutional as an explanation for a plothole. Obito thought it was a long time. You didn't. Solved.

Solved, in the sense that you've provided an explanation.
Not solved, in the sense that it doesn't actually explain anything.

[LnDRash]

There's one that is particularly striking to me...the one where Madara says he awakened the rinnegan shortly before his death. And it was said that Nagato was given a pair of rinnegans. So, if Nagato was born before Obito and there was a huge time gap between the time Nagato got his rinnegan and Obito's birth, then how was Madara able to meet and train Obito? I can explain this easily. Where was it said that Madara was able to awaken only one set of rinnegan? How do we know he didn't awaken two sets? What if Madara gave Nagato his eyes and told him to resurrect him later? Do we even know how you awaken the rinnegan? Exactly, we don't.

So Madara is some kind of Rinnegan-Broodmother?

Just let me savour this...

*Madara takes out his EMS-Eyes and replaces them with some random Sharingans*
Madara: Lets see whats going to happen...

*Madara awakens Rinnegan*
Madara: Wow cool! I'am gonna make some more of those!

*Madara plucks out his eyes and gives them to Nagato*
Madara: Here kid, have fun with that!

*Madara stuffs his EMS back into his empty eye sockets and they turn into Rinnegan once again*
Madara: Damn I'am starting to get realy good at this... soon I'll be ready for mass-production!

*Some years later after Madara has been resurrected*
Madara: I awakened this specific pair of eyes shortly before I died... actually I made some more of those at previous times, but those I'am currently using right now are the most recent ones!

Well yeah... sure... I guess if one is desperate it could be explained like that...

But no thanks, I still prefer to keep my attitude on this:

[SlayerKisame]

Solved, in the sense that you've provided an explanation.
Not solved, in the sense that it doesn't actually explain anything.

But, there is nothing to explain. Obito thinks differently than you. It's that simple. He thinks 2 years was a long time, you don't think so. Of course it's not an explanation because you think differently than he does when it comes to time. Why you're making such a big deal out of this is beyond me.

[Exodi]

But, there is nothing to explain. Obito thinks differently than you. It's that simple. He thinks 2 years was a long time, you don't think so. Of course it's not an explanation because you think differently than he does when it comes to time. Why you're making such a big deal out of this is beyond me.

The amount of time "Obito" spent waiting isn't so important as the fact that Obito had an inhuman growth spurt and gained abilities and knowledge he wasn't supposed to have.

Which takes me back to my original statement: We still don't know the whole story. This is why I'm saying your explanation doesn't explain anything. It literally cannot. To be blunt, the explanations you've provided are weak, in my opinion. Although, in all honesty, you may be right. And if you are, you can have all the internet cookies the internet can offer.

I'm only making a "big deal", because these discussions are the most interesting discussions I've seen on the forum in a long time. It's actually quite enjoyable.

[Xiraiya]

You seem to be quite a fan of technicalities, you're talking about the definition of a plot hole being something in the story that is inconsistent while also having no room for explanation, by your rules here, a plot hole is theoretically impossible in the series because we can just say "Because genjutsu" or some type of reality/time altering jutsu every damn time something doesn't quite add up, that sounds like a ridiculous answer to everything which doesn't answer anything at all, it would be lazy and terrible writing in many cases.

How often, not just with this series, any series do you think people ever actually say "That is a plot hole" when the inconsistency they point out cannot be explained in anyway? I would bet very few, now may I ask you where your definition of a plot hole comes from?

Because I have here...

A plot hole, or plothole, is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot. These include such things as unlikely behavior or actions of characters, illogical or impossible events, events happening for no apparent reason, or statements/events that contradict earlier events in the storyline.

I do not see where it mentions that they cannot be explained in anyway, so I fail to see the problem with people's general definition of a "Plot Hole"

It seems as if you're doing what the people you're disagreeing with are doing, which ultimately solves nothing regarding the arguments with the plot, it fixes nothing, if something does not make sense, it doesn't make sense, there can only be only so many reasons for this, the reader misinterpreting, the Author making a mistake, or simply something that will be explained later, until any of those can be confirmed, it can be freely argued.

On the subject of technicalities, you bought up Data Books not being the highest of canon because Kishi may not prioritize the accuracy of the information in them? They are Databooks, if they are canon in any form then they are canon, period, and may be used in debates and/or arguments.