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Thread: Let's Talk About Why Your Tobito "Plotholes" Aren't Plotholes

  1. #16
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
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    Re: Let's Talk About Why Your Tobito "Plotholes" Aren't Plotholes

    So, here you guy. I've read this post multiple times and everything in this post is not a plothole. All of it can be explained and I did this in the original post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Ideals

    The first, most important point of them all.
    What make Obito ( a Naruto wannabe ) change idea in the time span of 1 or 2 years?
    The same Obito believing in heroes and giving Kakashi his famous phrase, why would he make a speech on how the world doesn't need any heroes?.
    We can easily see how Tobi and Obito share two, very different ideals, and unless he was brainwashed by someone, it would make no sense whatsoever for such a radical change.

    Also, why harbour such a hate for his former sensei, his wife and his child to the point of covering the latter with paper bombs?
    The same Yondaime that teached him and Kakashi about teamwork?
    Remember Obito calling Kakashi captain as a sign of peace because Yondaime explained to him that Kakashi's life was the hardest of them all, asking him to understand where he comes from?
    Quote Originally Posted by SlayerKisame View Post
    So the most common thing that is brought up is the personality U-turn. I still can't imagine how it is a plothole. How fast did Sasuke get changed? Why can't Obito change that fast? Why can't traumatic events change him? A disgusting truth of the ninja world? Why can't he lie about Rin being the main reason? This is no plothole, guys. It's called mental health and it changes erratically! Don't trick yourself into thinking there is no possible motive for this. How do you know Obito's parents weren't killed in front of him? How do you know he didn't meet someone like Rin during the war and she got killed? See, these might seem like crazy possibilities, but it goes back to "room for explanation". If these things are possible, then that is an explanation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Timeline

    We know the Kyuubi's attack happened 1, 2 years at best after Kakashi's Gaiden, since Kakashi and Gai seem 14, 15 at best.
    Here we see how an adult physique ( Kurenai's father ) isn't even comparable to the kids, while here we see Tobi having the same physique as Yondaime.
    Obito never was renowed to have a peculiar height or bulk ( he seems on the short side ), so it doesn't make sense for him to obtain the body of an adult in a 1-2 years span.
    Still it isn't a valid point, so I'll provide others:


    Do you have any idea how long I've waited for this moment?
    A 16 years old saying that? After 1-2 years passed?
    Are 2 years such a huge span of time to wait?
    But wait, there is more:

    The same Tobi that Kabuto knows not to be the real Madara saying, in front of Kabuto and Zetsu, both knowing his real identity, that he obtained Hashirama's tissue during that battle?
    Maybe I forgot something, but as I recall, Hashirama died way before Obito was even born.
    But there is more still.

    Tobi was the one that "created" Akatsuki, and the one to gave Nagato the Rin'negan, the same Nagato Madara seem to know.
    Wasn't Nagato, like, a lot older than Obito? He was Jiraiya's student, meaning he should have at least Yondaime's age, if not older.

    Not counting also his knowledge about both Uchiha's jutsus and Uchiha's history, why would Obito have this reaction when talking about Izuna?
    It was the only reaction he had, even when talking about the Uchiha's massacre or his banishment he was impassible.
    Why then responding to Izuna?

    Last proof?
    Madara personally knows Tobi, the same Madara that was resurrected by Edo Tensei at the same state of his death, meaning Madara likely "died" around 30-40 years of age, judging by his overall aspect.
    Was Obito even born? Remember, at Madara and Hashirama's prime an old fart like Hiruzen was just a kid
    Quote Originally Posted by SlayerKisame View Post

    Okay, let's take a large portion of those "timeline plotholes" and throw them in the trash right now. Keep in mind, databook is not the highest level of canon. If Kishimoto doesn't even remain consistent with it, why should it be used in any debate? If there is anything Kishi should retcon, shouldn't it be some outside-publication nobody will read? The same databook that said Kurenai and Itachi had the same level of genjutsu? The same databook that 97% of fans don't even buy let alone read at a library? There is no reason to use the databook in arguments when 99% of average people are going to be either watching or reading Naruto to the end, not even knowing that databooks exist. You see, databooks are not relevant. Years from now, people will be watching some remastered filler-free Naruto and not even know about this crackpot "databook". With that reasoning, your plotholes don't even exist to average fans.

    I'm not even sure why this is warranted as a plothole, but I guess some people don't understand "acting". You see, when someone says they are someone else and says a bunch of things that only that someone could have done, then they were probably referring to what that person did. Did that sound confusing? I bet it did. I'm saying that whatever Obito said while he was lying about being Madara were things that Madara said and did. For instance, Obito saying he convinced Yahiko to form Akatsuki and gave Nagato the rinnegan...those were things that Madara did. Again, use common sense. This isn't rocket science!

    There's one that is particularly striking to me...the one where Madara says he awakened the rinnegan shortly before his death. And it was said that Nagato was given a pair of rinnegans. So, if Nagato was born before Obito and there was a huge time gap between the time Nagato got his rinnegan and Obito's birth, then how was Madara able to meet and train Obito? I can explain this easily. Where was it said that Madara was able to awaken only one set of rinnegan? How do we know he didn't awaken two sets? What if Madara gave Nagato his eyes and told him to resurrect him later? Do we even know how you awaken the rinnegan? Exactly, we don't.
    To add onto this, the height thing is merely a guess. Kakashi and Guy in the anime are portrayed to be adult height. In the manga, it's hard to get a perspective on this because there is no depth or animation. The anime vehemently proves that part wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Ability

    We know that Obito was a funny guy, but he was no genius, hell he was pretty average.
    Yet the same Obito, in 2 years, managed to:

    -gain enormous knowledge on seals
    -Managing to control the Kyuubi with a 3 tomoe Sharingan, a feat that only Madara Uchiha can apparently do
    -Making a contract with Kyuubi
    -Having knowledge, skills and abilities that no normal ninja can have, associating him to Madara once again.
    -Having superior abilities than Yondaime, someone hailed as the greatest prodigy of his era, matching him in combat while controlling the Kyuubi at the same time
    -Already making plans for Infinite Tsukuyomi, so gaining knowledge on Rikudou Sennin and the Juubi, knowledge being long forgotten

    Seems pretty unbelievable to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by SlayerKisame View Post
    Then there's the "how can obito get that strong" plothole. Unbelievable people would even say this. Obito trained with Madara, it's that obvious. We all know how strong Madara is, there's nothing wrong with him being able to make a fine ninja like Obito. How could you be shocked at Obito's growth in power when Madara, who can summon asteroids out of nowhere, is allianced with him. Remember, if there's room for explanation then it's not a plothole.
    Quote Originally Posted by Krina29 View Post
    That's my point those explanaitons from the first post were lame it is not like Madara is a Rin'nengan factory.

    ---------- Post added at 01:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:12 AM ----------

    And really? To explain many things using genjutsu? Let's put it like this then: this whole war was a genjutsu and it is legit because f**k logic, that's why
    Actually, only one explanation was genjutsu. Why are you posting if you haven't read my post?


    Quote Originally Posted by Xiraiya View Post
    You seem to be quite a fan of technicalities, you're talking about the definition of a plot hole being something in the story that is inconsistent while also having no room for explanation, by your rules here, a plot hole is theoretically impossible in the series because we can just say "Because genjutsu" or some type of reality/time altering jutsu every damn time something doesn't quite add up, that sounds like a ridiculous answer to everything which doesn't answer anything at all, it would be lazy and terrible writing in many cases.

    How often, not just with this series, any series do you think people ever actually say "That is a plot hole" when the inconsistency they point out cannot be explained in anyway? I would bet very few, now may I ask you where your definition of a plot hole comes from?

    Because I have here...

    I do not see where it mentions that they cannot be explained in anyway, so I fail to see the problem with people's general definition of a "Plot Hole"

    It seems as if you're doing what the people you're disagreeing with are doing, which ultimately solves nothing regarding the arguments with the plot, it fixes nothing, if something does not make sense, it doesn't make sense, there can only be only so many reasons for this, the reader misinterpreting, the Author making a mistake, or simply something that will be explained later, until any of those can be confirmed, it can be freely argued.

    On the subject of technicalities, you bought up Data Books not being the highest of canon because Kishi may not prioritize the accuracy of the information in them? They are Databooks, if they are canon in any form then they are canon, period, and may be used in debates and/or arguments.
    Your definition of a plothole seems to confuse you for some reason. We use the same definition. And it means the same thing. The only way to deal with a plothole is to rewrite the story or have the characters acknowledge the illogical situations. <-- That previous sentence right there is from the same wikipedia article you got it from. My explanations of these "plotholes" don't rewrite the story or have the characters acknowledge the illogical situations (there is nothing illogical anyways). So, first, let's dissect that definition.

    A plot hole, or plothole, is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot - So what exactly goes against the flow of logic? All of it seems pretty logical to me, considering I was able to explain it all.

    or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot - We already know about all the major events in the plot. What we don't know is Obito's background. Is this really relevant to the plot and is it inconsistent with the logic? Not really and no.

    These include such things as unlikely behavior or actions of characters, illogical or impossible events, events happening for no apparent reason, or statements/events that contradict earlier events in the storyline. - None of the sort have happened. I guess these examples prove that there is no plotholes with Tobi's identity.

    You missed my big point with databooks. The fact is that many people will read and watch Naruto not even knowing they exist. The real story is the major, official, and recognized medium it is presented in. So are you saying that the databooks are a bible as far as the story is concerned, even though the author completely contradicts it? It's irrelevant.
    Last edited by SlayerKisame; September 10, 2012 at 02:37 AM.

  2. #17
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    Re: Let's Talk About Why Your Tobito "Plotholes" Aren't Plotholes

    Quote Originally Posted by SlayerKisame View Post
    Your definition of a plothole seems to confuse you for some reason. We use the same definition. And it means the same thing. The only way to deal with a plothole is to rewrite the story or have the characters acknowledge the illogical situations. <-- That previous sentence right there is from the same wikipedia article you got it from. My explanations of these "plotholes" don't rewrite the story or have the characters acknowledge the illogical situations (there is nothing illogical anyways). So, first, let's dissect that definition.

    A plot hole, or plothole, is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot - So what exactly goes against the flow of logic? All of it seems pretty logical to me, considering I was able to explain it all.

    or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot - We already know about all the major events in the plot. What we don't know is Obito's background. Is this really relevant to the plot and is it inconsistent with the logic? Not really and no.

    These include such things as unlikely behavior or actions of characters, illogical or impossible events, events happening for no apparent reason, or statements/events that contradict earlier events in the storyline. - None of the sort have happened. I guess these examples prove that there is no plotholes with Tobi's identity.

    You missed my big point with databooks. The fact is that many people will read and watch Naruto not even knowing they exist. The real story is the major, official, and recognized medium it is presented in. So are you saying that the databooks are a bible as far as the story is concerned, even though the author completely contradicts it? It's irrelevant.
    The issue I have with your post is that you think you can explain it all away when what you have are theories, not facts (Unless you are of course secretly Kishi?) it's no different to saying like, "Tobi himself never said I am Obito Uchiha" therefore he can still be Izuna, or Madara, or Ramen guy or even Rin etc.

    In the end they are no different to anyone elses theories, people are referring to these "inconsistencies" as plot holes because they at the present time in the manga, do not make sense, it is a hole in the story with no canon explanation, can we make up explanations? sure.

    On the subject of the wikipedia definition, people use the term loosely, so what? It's not always accurate but it's the easiest way for most people to label what they are trying to say, most people do after all, in most sections.

    For the record, I would consider Madara awakening multiple Rinnegan while only ever showing and implying to have one set as rather illogical, why are we suppose to think he was just sitting there spam awakening his eyes before dying? It's silly, however that is my opinion on it, just as the theory it's self is your opinion.


    Your thoughts regarding the Databooks are exactly that, thoughts, your thoughts, maybe most fans would never get to read it, are you sure? do you know about what fans read in Japan? Would they not be arguing every aspect of the plot of the series just as we all do? I said nothing regarding bibles, I said if they are canon then they are canon, if Kishi contradicts himself, then that's his problem.

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    Re: Let's Talk About Why Your Tobito "Plotholes" Aren't Plotholes

    people have their theories
    just like them , OP you have your own theoris
    that doesnt mean they are wrong and you are right ... everyone believes in what seems most logical to him . and to a lot of us here , we just see plotholes everywhere , and not only plot holes ...but poor story telling aswell (things that can be explained by logic but seem far too unlikely to happen , like the edo tensei war and so on...)


    lets just say im a mangaka , and here is my plot : kabuto uses edo tensei , then teachs his edo tenseis how to use edo tenseis and so on ... at the end we have ressurected every single ninja that ever lived
    that is logical ,but it's still a very poor and cheap story plot
    THE UCHIHA LOGIC:
    "brother follows hiw on path? destroy konoha " uchiha sasuke
    "the village wants you not to interfere with politics? coup-d'etat" uchiha fugaku
    "coup-d'etat on the way? obliterate entire clan" uchiha itachi
    "clan wants to make peace? destroy everyone everywhere" uchiha madara
    "10 years old crush dead?infinite tsukyumi" uchiha obito



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  6. #19
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member darkprince0521's Avatar
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    Re: Let's Talk About Why Your Tobito "Plotholes" Aren't Plotholes

    Quote Originally Posted by SlayerKisame View Post
    Long post incoming...but I am going to hopefully put a rest to the "plotholes" you guys talk about after hearing it from those youtubers.
    Quote Originally Posted by SlayerKisame View Post
    Okay, let's take a large portion of those "timeline plotholes" and throw them in the trash right now. Keep in mind, databook is not the highest level of canon. If Kishimoto doesn't even remain consistent with it, why should it be used in any debate? If there is anything Kishi should retcon, shouldn't it be some outside-publication nobody will read? The same databook that said Kurenai and Itachi had the same level of genjutsu? The same databook that 97% of fans don't even buy let alone read at a library? There is no reason to use the databook in arguments when 99% of average people are going to be either watching or reading Naruto to the end, not even knowing that databooks exist. You see, databooks are not relevant. Years from now, people will be watching some remastered filler-free Naruto and not even know about this crackpot "databook". With that reasoning, your plotholes don't even exist to average fans.

    make it clear. who is your target actually? who are questioning this development? or those "future" audience who will have no question? if it is the second group, then good luck; you are doing just fine.

    but if it is the first group, you will have to do better. if it indeed is your target group, then make another thing clear. what are you saying? that Tobi always was Obito, and never was Madara or any other person?
    Naruto Forever


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    Re: Let's Talk About Why Your Tobito "Plotholes" Aren't Plotholes

    Quote Originally Posted by darkprince0521 View Post
    make it clear. who is your target actually? who are questioning this development? or those "future" audience who will have no question? if it is the second group, then good luck; you are doing just fine.

    but if it is the first group, you will have to do better. if it indeed is your target group, then make another thing clear. what are you saying? that Tobi always was Obito, and never was Madara or any other person?
    I think I was pretty clear, I was targeting everyone who believed that "plotholes" exist and everyone believing the databooks as well. This includes a future audience.

    Anyways, I'm not really gonna try any harder than this. I've already explained to you why your "plotholes" don't exist. It's up to you to dissect my explanations or leave it alone. So I guess I'll ask you a few questions, especially since you seemed confused about who Tobi actually was. Are you implying that if you believe in the databooks, you abide by a completely different rubric when debating? Are you implying that Tobi was at one point not Obito after everything I've said? With that last question, let me ask you this; why exactly did Tobi keep his mask on after revealing himself to me Madara? Maybe because he was someone else? Anyways, that's a different argument I'd rather not get into but we can settle that here and now if you want. There's so many clues that he was Obito the entire time I could make a documentary about it.

    Going back to databooks...once again the databooks should not be used, just give up on them. The point is that if Kishimoto isn't going to abide by them, it's much easier on yourself to just give up believing the databooks are canon. Same thing with fans who don't even know such a thing exists. You have the choice of listening and staying true to some supplementary material which has been contradicted multiple times in the past by the author himself or just staying true to the manga alone.

    You're gonna have to either carry that pointless weight (databooks) or let it go.

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    MH Senpai 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Uchiha_Blood's Avatar
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    Re: Let's Talk About Why Your Tobito "Plotholes" Aren't Plotholes

    So basically the whole Tobito mess can be explained with:
    -Madara happened, the guy transformed an untalented half-deformed monstruosity in a guy with comparable skills to his own in a year.
    Wonder why Madara didn't train the whole Uchiha clan then, imagine 100 Madaras roaming around the world
    -Databooks, canon timeline and other shit are useless.
    Kishi doesn't care, since despite stating in the manga that Kakashi was 6 when he became chunin in recent chapters he made him look like a twelve years old.
    But it isn't a plot hole since its not relevant
    -Rin'negan matter?
    Its Madara we are talking about, the guy probably has a magical hat called "Epic Shit" where he pulls off magical tricks out of nowhere.
    A pair of Rin'negans? Pft legendary doujutsu my ass, he can bake them like cookies.
    -Kisame mistaking Obito for Madara?
    Obviously Henge no Jutsu I mean Kisame is a dumb half-fish, I'm surprised he can breath out of water, how can he recognize a jutsu like that?
    Ah of course genjutsu, its not like Shisui's Kotoamatsukami, canonically the strongest genjutsu of the Uchiha clan is the only one that can influence the other's thoughts without the enemy having a clue.
    Hell its so common a power that both Tobi and Kabuto had a hard-on everytime that eye was mentioned
    Of course high level ninjas can't tell when they are under a genjutsu, and its not like Kisame had any experience of how Sharingan genjutsu works.
    Itachi was clearly a Hyuuga in disguise
    Last edited by Uchiha_Blood; September 10, 2012 at 09:54 AM.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member darkprince0521's Avatar
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    Re: Let's Talk About Why Your Tobito "Plotholes" Aren't Plotholes

    Quote Originally Posted by SlayerKisame View Post
    I think I was pretty clear, I was targeting everyone who believed that "plotholes" exist and everyone believing the databooks as well. This includes a future audience.

    Anyways, I'm not really gonna try any harder than this. I've already explained to you why your "plotholes" don't exist. It's up to you to dissect my explanations or leave it alone. So I guess I'll ask you a few questions, especially since you seemed confused about who Tobi actually was. Are you implying that if you believe in the databooks, you abide by a completely different rubric when debating? Are you implying that Tobi was at one point not Obito after everything I've said? With that last question, let me ask you this; why exactly did Tobi keep his mask on after revealing himself to me Madara? Maybe because he was someone else? Anyways, that's a different argument I'd rather not get into but we can settle that here and now if you want. There's so many clues that he was Obito the entire time I could make a documentary about it.

    Going back to databooks...once again the databooks should not be used, just give up on them. The point is that if Kishimoto isn't going to abide by them, it's much easier on yourself to just give up believing the databooks are canon. Same thing with fans who don't even know such a thing exists. You have the choice of listening and staying true to some supplementary material which has been contradicted multiple times in the past by the author himself or just staying true to the manga alone.

    You're gonna have to either carry that pointless weight (databooks) or let it go.
    so the point is made clear from you; that Tobi always was Obito and never was anyone else.... good. one less thing to worry about.

    you are constantly saying to not count databook. well, i have been a reader of this manga for more than few years; and always knew databook as an absolute reference, even Kishi himself said that these are the manga facts. you will always find numerous old debate using reference from databook. and now suddenly, because you said so, we should stop counting databook as reference? if Kishi fails to maintain his own explanations, we should not argue about it, right?

    and even then, you are even refusing to admit things from manga. giving explanation like:

    Quote Originally Posted by SlayerKisame View Post
    To add onto this, the height thing is merely a guess. Kakashi and Guy in the anime are portrayed to be adult height. In the manga, it's hard to get a perspective on this because there is no depth or animation. The anime vehemently proves that part wrong.
    you know something? there is an unwritten rule in manga debates. that is to not use reference from anime. because very often anime portraits things differently than manga. heck, i even saw Sasuke running away while being chased by Amaterasu that Itachi used in anime.

    and you are ignoring manga facts because anime showed otherwise? you can't ignore databook if it conflicts with some manga events, you cannot ignore manga facts when it messes up few other things. that's why there are many people hating the idea of Tobi being Obito. it's not because they hate Obito, but it's because it conflicts with so many other things of old revelations.
    Naruto Forever


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    Re: Let's Talk About Why Your Tobito "Plotholes" Aren't Plotholes

    Databooks should not be used in fights, actually. Even if Minato has higher stats than Itachi, he can still lose to Itachi in one shot. Kurenai and Itachi having the same level of genjutsu doesn't contradict the manga, as it could mean that without Sharingan, Itachi and Kurenai are on the same level. People honestly don't think about stuff and are quick to blame plothole over anything they don't understand. "Sasuke got EMS?! zomg plothole! Madara is strong? PLOTHOLE!!!11"

    And as much as I'm against Tobi being Obito, it wouldn't necessarily be a plothole either. As mentioned, we should wait for explanation that'll most likely sound like absolute bullcrap either way just to please the theorists. I can justify Tobi's identity, though it's easier to call bull on that.

    There's just more reasons that work against Tobito than it does for it. Timeline for one thing, sudden improvement, and so much more. The only thing I can come up with is that Obito was secretly a gifted ninja and evil who either had Sharingan or Mangekyo and could unlock Mangekyo with less than three tomoe (where was it ever said that three tomoe is needed to unlock Mangekyo?). Which begs the question though, how did he unlock Mangekyo? Was it when Rin died before he fought Minato and Obito couldn't do anything about it?

    Even if it is Obito, I doubt Rin is his main reason for being a douche. He's probably citing that as the only reason to mess with Kakashi's mind.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Fox666's Avatar
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    Re: Let's Talk About Why Your Tobito "Plotholes" Aren't Plotholes

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Databooks should not be used in fights, actually. Even if Minato has higher stats than Itachi, he can still lose to Itachi in one shot. Kurenai and Itachi having the same level of genjutsu doesn't contradict the manga, as it could mean that without Sharingan, Itachi and Kurenai are on the same level.
    Or the stats are not accurate, while both are at 5, Kurenai actually is a 4.8 while Itachi is 5.2.
    Quote Originally Posted by IChallengeYou! View Post
    TOBI IS OBITO

    did you say something about timelines?! naruto ate it NOM NOM NOM IT'S GONE.

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    Re: Let's Talk About Why Your Tobito "Plotholes" Aren't Plotholes

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post

    Ah of course genjutsu, its not like Shisui's Kotoamatsukami, canonically the strongest genjutsu of the Uchiha clan is the only one that can influence the other's thoughts without the enemy having a clue.
    and the golden medal of the dumbest shinobi goes to .............................. uchiha shisui
    dude had super op MS , yet he didnt use it against itachi's father to cancel the coup d'etat


    nono , this isnt plothole or poor story telling .. this all makes sense ....................................................... in a parallel universe
    THE UCHIHA LOGIC:
    "brother follows hiw on path? destroy konoha " uchiha sasuke
    "the village wants you not to interfere with politics? coup-d'etat" uchiha fugaku
    "coup-d'etat on the way? obliterate entire clan" uchiha itachi
    "clan wants to make peace? destroy everyone everywhere" uchiha madara
    "10 years old crush dead?infinite tsukyumi" uchiha obito



  14. #26
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Notak's Avatar
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    Re: Let's Talk About Why Your Tobito "Plotholes" Aren't Plotholes

    In the end it's a shonen manga, meant for teens, so whatever. Trying to make deep sense out of Naruto forever isn't gonna do you good.
    Feel free to discuss, but I'm saying, sooner or later you have to realize it's just a shonen manga.

  15. #27
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: Let's Talk About Why Your Tobito "Plotholes" Aren't Plotholes

    What is this? Is this thread seriously all about semantics? The idea that people are calling them "plot holes" instead of something else is what you're taking issue with?

    I dislike these kinds of threads, particularly the combative atmosphere that tends to be set in them by overzealous defenders of artistic license and free thinking in the context of an established piece of fiction. Not only are you already and obnoxiously perpetuating a theme throughout this thread that users here lack critical thinking and deep learning simply because they do not agree with your -- let's be honest, less-than-pointed responses -- but also because you and the people you are addressing are both coming at this subject from two different angles. You suggest that because you can explain it in some way, "it's not a plot hole" and the story works. Others suggest that because it conflicts with details, implications, or even modes of thought established in the past (note that "conflicts" does not need to equate to "overwrites", but can) that they can be and / or are "plot holes". Now, I'm not going to insult you by posting one of the various definitions of the term "plot hole", because frankly, terms like this adapt to the contexts in which they are used and in certain situations the severity of which constitutes what a mass population may consider a "plot hole" can vastly differ from another context, however, I can tell you right now that they lean in favor of your opposition, here.

    Having an explanation for a "plot hole" doesn't make it any less of a "plot hole". The term is not some retrospective analysis of concrete details in relation to every logical possibility, ever. If that were the case, there would never be any plot discrepancies at all, because we could all turn ourselves from the audience into the author and write in some previously-hidden set of circumstances that makes all of the ridiculousness fit. The problem with that, and the main reason why a lot of people take issue with subjects like this, is that this kind of retconning makes the long-standing journey of the audience through the plot less significant. There is a glaring difference between a big reveal that brings all of the pieces together in a big, "OH!" moment, versus a big reveal that leaves you wondering why you're being told one thing in the present, versus one thing in the past. Trying to chalk this up to misdirection, "acting", or whatever else is ridiculously silly. Breaking the fourth wall of the narrative to intentionally mislead the audience works in few mediums, and the manga medium is absolutely not one of them. Whether the details are big or small, there are naturally going to be some that wind up coming back to bite an author in the ass; having every detail of every plot device planned out from the beginning for long-term projects like this one are, one could argue, almost fatedly impossible -- almost. The thing is, this does not have that sudden or even smooth and drawn-out revelation of clarity and that downward regression in which everything makes much more sense. Do some things make sense? Yes. A lot of things do. Do some things not make sense? Also, yes, a lot of things are now questionable, and many of them are, arguably, a "plot hole" in relation to how the story was written and what was written.

    It is ridiculously off-putting and pretentious of you to come to a place (or, according to you, multiple places in which you have read / listened to "hundreds" of reviews and other interactions) that fosters in-depth discussion, consideration, theory, and even criticism with varying levels of severity, and start shooting people down or purposely trying to "back them into a corner", as you put it, in order to put an end to a concept that has caused people to label these happenstances "plot holes". Backing someone into a corner regarding their literary analysis shouldn't be your goal, here. Trying to argue over whether the label is correct shouldn't be your goal, here. Why is that so important to you? It's not constructive in the slightest. You should be discussing the themes and plot devices and why or why they are not fitting for each other, both with and without the possible explanations you can personally provide. This provides breadth to the topic and will, hopefully, leave everyone walking away with a better understanding of the opposing ideas and perspectives with which they do not agree with and are interested in persuading.

    It's a little meta-hypocritical of me to try and stifle the ideas you choose to put forth here, however I tend to see them, for the sole purpose of being annoyed that you are trying to stifle the concepts that people have here about an artist's work and how they choose to label it (well within the confines of any definition of the word-of-the-day in this thread), but the mood of this thread and every thread that tends to pop up like this one never sits well with me at all because of the down-the-nose demeanor and air of logical self-righteousness being behind that passion.
    Last edited by Jspot; September 10, 2012 at 07:28 PM.
    Chapter 500 Review <--- My third Naruto chapter review!
    Spoiler show

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  17. #28
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member darkprince0521's Avatar
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    Re: Let's Talk About Why Your Tobito "Plotholes" Aren't Plotholes

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Databooks should not be used in fights, actually. Even if Minato has higher stats than Itachi, he can still lose to Itachi in one shot. Kurenai and Itachi having the same level of genjutsu doesn't contradict the manga, as it could mean that without Sharingan, Itachi and Kurenai are on the same level. People honestly don't think about stuff and are quick to blame plothole over anything they don't understand. "Sasuke got EMS?! zomg plothole! Madara is strong? PLOTHOLE!!!11"
    true. databook information to explain fights wouldn't be the best thing to do. but for timeline reference, databook should have been a reliable source. but now many issues can be found in manga, and when databook is considered, the number shots up to sky.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    And as much as I'm against Tobi being Obito, it wouldn't necessarily be a plothole either. As mentioned, we should wait for explanation that'll most likely sound like absolute bullcrap either way just to please the theorists. I can justify Tobi's identity, though it's easier to call bull on that.

    There's just more reasons that work against Tobito than it does for it. Timeline for one thing, sudden improvement, and so much more. The only thing I can come up with is that Obito was secretly a gifted ninja and evil who either had Sharingan or Mangekyo and could unlock Mangekyo with less than three tomoe (where was it ever said that three tomoe is needed to unlock Mangekyo?). Which begs the question though, how did he unlock Mangekyo? Was it when Rin died before he fought Minato and Obito couldn't do anything about it?

    Even if it is Obito, I doubt Rin is his main reason for being a douche. He's probably citing that as the only reason to mess with Kakashi's mind.
    heck. even i can explain why Tobi is Obito. actually I have an idea or two in my mind already. but the problem is exactly what you said, "sound like absolute bullcrap either way just to please the theorists". but it will cover all the timeline issues anyway (there is no way to rectify chapter 599 though).
    Naruto Forever


  18. #29
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member $nipe's Avatar
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    Re: Let's Talk About Why Your Tobito "Plotholes" Aren't Plotholes

    Quote Originally Posted by Jspot View Post
    What is this? Is this thread seriously all about semantics? The idea that people are calling them "plot holes" instead of something else is what you're taking issue with?

    I dislike these kinds of threads, particularly the combative atmosphere that tends to be set in them by overzealous defenders of artistic license and free thinking in the context of an established piece of fiction. Not only are you already and obnoxiously perpetuating a theme throughout this thread that users here lack critical thinking and deep learning simply because they do not agree with your -- let's be honest, less-than-pointed responses -- but also because you and the people you are addressing are both coming at this subject from two different angles. You suggest that because you can explain it in some way, "it's not a plot hole" and the story works. Others suggest that because it conflicts with details, implications, or even modes of thought established in the past (note that "conflicts" does not need to equate to "overwrites", but can) that they can be and / or are "plot holes". Now, I'm not going to insult you by posting one of the various definitions of the term "plot hole", because frankly, terms like this adapt to the contexts in which they are used and in certain situations the severity of which constitutes what a mass population may consider a "plot hole" can vastly differ from another context, however, I can tell you right now that they lean in favor of your opposition, here.

    Having an explanation for a "plot hole" doesn't make it any less of a "plot hole". The term is not some retrospective analysis of concrete details in relation to every logical possibility, ever. If that were the case, there would never be any plot discrepancies at all, because we could all turn ourselves from the audience into the author and write in some previously-hidden set of circumstances that makes all of the ridiculousness fit. The problem with that, and the main reason why a lot of people take issue with subjects like this, is that this kind of retconning makes the long-standing journey of the audience through the plot less significant. There is a glaring difference between a big reveal that brings all of the pieces together in a big, "OH!" moment, versus a big reveal that leaves you wondering why you're being told one thing in the present, versus one thing in the past. Trying to chalk this up to misdirection, "acting", or whatever else is ridiculously silly. Breaking the fourth wall of the narrative to intentionally mislead the audience works in few mediums, and the manga medium is absolutely not one of them. Whether the details are big or small, there are naturally going to be some that wind up coming back to bite an author in the ass; having every detail of every plot device planned out from the beginning for long-term projects like this one are, one could argue, almost fatedly impossible -- almost. The thing is, this does not have that sudden or even smooth and drawn-out revelation of clarity and that downward regression in which everything makes much more sense. Do some things make sense? Yes. A lot of things do. Do some things not make sense? Also, yes, a lot of things are now questionable, and many of them are, arguably, a "plot hole" in relation to how the story was written and what was written.

    It is ridiculously off-putting and pretentious of you to come to a place (or, according to you, multiple places in which you have read / listened to "hundreds" of reviews and other interactions) that fosters in-depth discussion, consideration, theory, and even criticism with varying levels of severity, and start shooting people down or purposely trying to "back them into a corner", as you put it, in order to put an end to a concept that has caused people to label these happenstances "plot holes". Backing someone into a corner regarding their literary analysis shouldn't be your goal, here. Trying to argue over whether the label is correct shouldn't be your goal, here. Why is that so important to you? It's not constructive in the slightest. You should be discussing the themes and plot devices and why or why they are not fitting for each other, both with and without the possible explanations you can personally provide. This provides breadth to the topic and will, hopefully, leave everyone walking away with a better understanding of the opposing ideas and perspectives with which they do not agree with and are interested in persuading.

    It's a little meta-hypocritical of me to try and stifle the ideas you choose to put forth here, however I tend to see them, for the sole purpose of being annoyed that you are trying to stifle the concepts that people have here about an artist's work and how they choose to label it (well within the confines of any definition of the word-of-the-day in this thread), but the mood of this thread and every thread that tends to pop up like this one never sits well with me at all because of the down-the-nose demeanor and air of logical self-righteousness being behind that passion.
    Ehm... [/thread].

    Usually, any story can be solved by using many different approaches, with varying levels of likelihood for every possible turn of the plot. The whole Tobi=Obito thing at the beginning was perfect, hence the number of people becoming fans of the idea. However, it turned bad when the plot suggested many things to mislead the readers, not only making other options more likely and appealing, but also making the first and most obvious choice less probable and complicated. Now that we know the truth, the idea of Obito being behind the whole thing may make sense, but it just doesn't feel right.

    Regarding the definition of 'plothole', I think that many people have expressed in many different ways that this is a very relative term. Since we're discussing fiction, there will always be a way to explain whatever the author comes up with. I'm no fiction writer (and I read very little of it too) but I've noticed that all authors keep pieces of information for themselves to engage the readers into wondering details (pretty much what people come to these forums to do). If you ask me why people keep complaining about plotholes is because in this case Kishi couldn't handle what information had to be disclosed and what didn't. By this time, the only way for our beloved mangaka to explain about all those inconsistencies is to admit that there was too much information held from us, which is colloquially known as an 'ass-pull'.

    It doesn't really engage to us readers to endlessly discuss characters and the plotline and then Kishimoto comes and tells us "SORRY GUISE, HAD YOU KNOWN HALF THE LIFE STORY OF THIS CHARACTER, MAYBE YOU WOULD'VE GUESSED RIGHT". That's usually regarded as bad storytelling. Regarding what the OP is discussing, the likelihood of Obito being Tobi making sense, he is right: it can be explained. Then again, the rest of the naysayers are correct too when they respond that it just sounds sucky. It doesn't give you any "Aaaah" moments, just a bunch of "Yeah, right"s.

  19. #30
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Akabeth's Avatar
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    Re: Let's Talk About Why Your Tobito "Plotholes" Aren't Plotholes

    You guys need to lighten up, lol. For these threads we need to recall the one and only Tobitroll.

    "Only a life lived for others is a life worthwhile." Albert Einstein

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