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Translations: Bleach 595 (2)
Raftella was able to alter to alter Roxanne's senses and cause her to misjudge her attacks a little. Hence they were superficial wounds that the twins were able to recover from. At least I think that's what happened.Quote:
I think that miria has been a skilful strategist; she tries to think of a plan to save as many as possible and has good enough people skills and charisma to persuade others into trusting her with their lives. She does have a little luck.
I think that luck is the wrong word (ass-pull as someone said); but more of how much effort the author puts into forcing the character to succeed. (I'll deal with that later.) It's like getting shot in the leg but still saving the day vs being shot in the head and still saving the day. One is cool and the other is just deflating.
The irony of Miria is that Yagi is trying too hard to place the burden on her; that he is missing points were he can balance the character. Such as letting us see or other characters question her flaws or having her explain anything that isn't pulled out of nowhere VS making her unquestionable by her comrades and giving her fast-track knowledge that makes no sense.
Yagi has done it right in the past; like in Peitia when Undine questions her about why Miria put inexperienced fighters on the feild instead of holding them back. That was awesome.
Peitia was Miria's shinning moment, had it's flaws, but I'll get to that.
The battle of Peitia was a cool idea; using the pills to fake death. It was unfortunate that the idea was stripped down like it was.
I feel that is the real issue that Yagi failed to give us a reason why this was the best move.
Sometimes in stories it's not bad to have the characters do the whole option 1) we fight, option 2) we go renegade etc.
So is there room for an explanation that fits the world (claymore) as it was then?
I believe there is if you fannon approach it (as in use past information to fill in the blanks) - you could flesh it out so that it works.
Here's what we know.
1. 24 warriors were dispatched north to counter Isley's army.
2. 28 plus awakened beings made up Isley's army.
3. All these AB's regardless of destination were exterminated. (By Riful or by Alicia and Beth)
4. We saw during the 'Slashers Arc' that observers (the current eyes and 1 Mib) are dispatched to see how important battles are progressing and report.
5. (Revealed later by Rubel) God-eye Galatea went missing at or shortly after the battle of Peitia (suggesting she was indeed nearby).
So these should be the facts and with them we could construct an options ladder. We already saw what happened if they fought; what if they had decided to renegade?
Assume they went renegade.
1. If the organisation had an eyes (Galatea) and mib present to ensure that no warriors tried to flee the battle, so if Miria had tried to flee with the warriors the organisation would have known. (as at that point Galatea was shown to have no disloyality to the org.)
2. Assume the ABs did not pursue the 24, but still got killed; Alicia and Beth would have then been dispatched to kill the 24.
3. End of claymore haha. (Joke)
As for the pills it seems strange she had so many; but I think that it is likely she may have been stockpiling them herself; Miria has been shown to be able to get to places she isn't supposed to.
Also it is possible that she could have gotten her hands on research papers inside the HQ during her investigation that gave her an idea about using them this way.
The body of a possible explanation, into why Miria chose option 1, is there; Yagi just chose not to think about it.
Thus whenever we think back to 'the battle of Peitia' we don't think; 'boy Miria managed to save 6 comrades in a no-win situation,' no we think; 'Miria you idiot, you let 17 warriors die pointlessly when you could have just run for it.'
Ultimately, because not a single alternative plan was explored, we are left with the question, why did you do that?
I would give the Peitia battle arc 4/5.
(just as a marker I would give Teresas Arc 5/5.)
It is just enough to make me think of Miria as an exellent statagist.
One extreme to the other; The rebellion Arc.
It was terrible.
I actually have no issues with Miria charging into the HQ by herself; it's good, just gutsy enough, that I can get over it. She had to get in and tell her story to the new generation so they would understand that she wasn't their enermy. I like it.
Miria is still good to this point, then...
I have every issue with how overblown skill-wise Miria suddenly became; then add the overblown skills of the three AO (Hysteria mostly), then just as I thought Miria was going to play the coolest of thrump cards and half-awaken Yagi just puts the breaks on.
It would even have been salvagable had Miria not killed hysteria with her teeth! And had been badly injured while she had lead Hysteria between Roxanna and Cassandra. Since then Miria, and no character actually, have reacted properly, (especially the ghost who should have had some complaints about being left behind.
The Rebellion Arc was misjudged just after Miria was revealed as not being dead; the X on her face wasn't a scar but a warning; if you liked Miria, don't bother.
Last edited by Decepticon; September 30, 2012 at 11:23 AM.
2) And leave the base undefended against Riful and Isley (and Luciella, at the time they wouldn't know she had been killed by Rafaela)? lol
And your scenario is unlikely for another reason and that is: Rigaldo would not be defeated as easily while having 27 ABs with him. He would surely notice what was going on and go after Beth so unless Alicia would kill him first it could end very badly for the Org.
Anyway, I don't see any arguments in your post that show Miria being a skilful strategist. The only example you've mentioned is the Pieta battle but as I've shown this plan was stupid. The only thing that could have made Miria reconsider was Rafaela. But if you think about it it would still be way better to face her than 28 ABs (including Rigaldo and possibly Isley). And that's assuming she would know about her. But if she knew and she would be as intelligent as some people claim she would also know her main reason for living (so she would know that rafaela wouldn't waste much time on playing hide and seek with renegades). Here's what I've written on this matter over a year ago: http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...85#post3594885
About Rafaela, all Clare knew was that Rubel was confident she would be able to defeat both Jean and Clare at the same time, which didn't tell her much (knowing how deceitful Rubel was it could be a bluff as well). But if Miria was with them I'm pretty sure they would take their chances against her if it was needed. Rafaela isn't Teresa and fighting 3 or more opponents at the same time wouldn't be that easy, especially if she was against super precise QS, Miria's phantoms and Jean's overwhelming power. And let's say Flora or Deneve would join them and Helen would use her long ranged attacks and we would have an interesting fight in favour of Clare and co and not Rafeala. That's what Miria and the rest would probably think at least. Unless Rafaela could own Riguald or had similar power as him while being in a cloaked mode fabulous 4 +the highest digits would deal with her. There would be no indication to think otherwise. The only thing Miria could be scared of is that Rafaela was cloaked and could kill them one by one. Which would be very difficult to do with the right planning (patrol shifts, always travelling in groups, etc.)
About Rafalea finding them - sure she could find them if they emitted youki. But with the pills it would be impossible and her only chance would be to track them down using trailing. And with all ABs over the place youki reading would be harder too. But most of all I'm not sure how long Rafaela would stay there to hunt deserters down when she would be more needed in the org to defend them from these ABs (unless she would know that it's not necessary because of Alicia and that Isley wouldn't go after the org which wasn't sth they could be certain about). That's the best thing about this plan. Once Claymores would vanish ABs would just go to the HQ which would make Claymore hunt pointless and dangerous. Unless MiB were retards they wouldn't want to waste their time and resources on a pointless thing.
Why would some of them need to stay in Pieta? Why couldn't all of them escape? We know Miria had enough pills. Your assumptions are rather strange. All they had to do was to stick together and escape. They could scatter at first to avoid being seen (as a one big group they would be easier to spot so smaller groups would be preferable, for example the same groups Miria used for fighting ABs) but thanks to being cloaked they would be rather safe. Then they would join in a certain place (let's say the cave where fab 4 +Jean gathered or somewhere else, let's say on a cliff that could be easily spotted from afar or as far north as they could go or sth like that) and they would be practically untouchable.
Rafaeala wouldn't find them at first because of the pills, later she would go back since she would have to help in case Isley attacked and someone other would be needed to defeat 28 ABs. If Isley acted as he acted she would be gone anyway because she would like to meet with her sister so she would be out of the picture anyway (but that's beyond the point). After the battle would be over and 28 ABs would be defeated (which would require more effort on organization's part, for example Riguald as intelligent as he was might have noticed that Beth was restraining her sister and he might have tried to kill her, plus 28 ABs instead of 11 would be a big problem for them) they would probably have some casualties and they couldn't effort afford to send anyone after Pieta warriors (they couldn't have known that not all 28 would go after the org so recalling Rafaela would be a smart thing to do).
Once they would gain some kind of an equilibrium anyone other than Alicia and Beth or Rafalea wouldn't be able to deal with all 24 warriors. And it would be stupid for them to dispatch them since any time Riful or Isley could attack them (and Luciella for all Miria could know). So only Rafaela could be spared (dispatching every other Claymore would also greatly weaken the organization and prevent them from receiving money and doing their usual work). But Rafaela against all 24 warriors would have some difficulties I would think (and certainly Miria would think so). And finding them in that climate wouldn't be that easy unless Rafaela was an eye or had one with her (but again, I doubt they could spare an eye for that).
I don't know where to begin in answer to that Goral. Not trying to start a fight.
1a) Alright I forgot about them eating the pills whole (becoming cloaked), however 24 missing bodies (and it had been proved by that point that AB's hate eating claymore flesh - foul tasting as it is to them) would be clue No1.
Also how did they know they were all killed; even when clairice said there were only 17 swords, it was dismissed?
1b) My assmptions aren't strange, they are following events that occured within the magna after the battle; so I simple replaced 'fake deaths' with 'run away', you could even replace it with 'plan failed they all died'.
Assumptions as to what would happen are based on personal oppinion, and any alternatives you can think of based on evidence (previous chapters/situations within the story) seen elsewhere.
What I wrote was my playlet; what I thought would happen, pertaining to how things might have gone if they had tried to run away. Clearly diffrent from yours.
1c) The point of the war in the north was to slow down Isley's army to give time for A+B to be completed. A kills 24 > A then not completed in time > Org. doomed anyway.
2a) I read what you said on animesuki, however, your argument that 28 AB's would be at Org' HQ is plain wrong (as we know in retrospect what Isley was planing and explained below), even if the AB force had survived completely intact then Isley would still have given instructions to have the force split into two groups (14 in each) and head in seperate directions; resulting in their extermination by Riful + Dauf and A+B. Essentially nothing would have changed within the rest of the story.
As to what you said on animesuki, Isley was only just heading south, from near pieta, when the battle of pieta was going on meaning that Rafaela hadn't incapacitated her sister yet and Riful was still alive and so yeah his army would still split up into two groups.
2b) Rigaldo, no idea, I guess I can't answer that but considering the proposed strength diffrence between awakened 1 and 2, I'm guessing even that might he not be enough to defeat A.
3) I understand your confusion - you assume that A+B would be immediately dispatched to destroy some rougue warriors. No, I meant that A+B would kill Riful and Isley (eradicating all main threats), before being sent to kill the 24 warriors. (or would you suggest that they would do less when they spent 10+ years searching for Irene alone).
Isley was eventually killed by Abyssmal feeders seven years later, not even by A+B. Oh yeah, poor Luciella.
As for Rafaela I doubt our heros would even be able to detect her; given her cloaked yoki and skills at tracking.
Still how many eyes do they have at a time? I thought each generation only had one and that Galatea was that Generations eye. (ofcourse only if you exclude the new eye in training)
Also Galatea had received punishment sure, but if you need an eye you, need it you know or they would have executed her like you joked before.
My main argument was that the situation was poorly explored and caused what should have been a cool moment turn into a wet fart.
I understand that why didn't X do X is always going to be asked; I ask it too, plot holes are everywhere; but I'm sure we can agree than plotholes are one thing; plotsewers are another.
Yagi tried to convince us that fighting with the chance of faking death was better than just running away, which he couldn't. But it doesn't change the fact that had they just ran chances are that Isley (killed by AFs) and Riful (killed by A+B) would have been killed.
Chances that our heroes wouldn't have been next is not small; surely 24 warriors would constitute a threat.
Last edited by Decepticon; September 30, 2012 at 03:23 PM.
actually there is surprisingly little difference between the two. though i doubt i would call her an idiot if still lucky. in the end she comes up with the best strategy at the best moment.
at pieta, she of COURSE would know it cloaks her yoki. more than likely she learned that from clare who used it for months. hell, itso bvious it cloaks yoki, it is one of its functions.
hysteria's battles were actually a stroke of genius for miria. jsut because she was a number one does not mean she was some genius. it means she was very powerful and efficient in battle. cassandra in her awkward mentality is a sure sign that intelligent and strategy is not what the org looked for. miria isolating her weakness and using it was a very risky but intelligent strategy. it was especially true when hysteria awakened, which means she had even less control over her actions and could not stand the idea of being bested, no matter what danger she was in.
sometimes the greatest and most successful of strategems, are the ones most likely to fail. that is actually a real thing in this world.
I think its more impressive that Miria remembers so many of the Claymore's names and rank when she put the Claymore into teams at Pieta. She must have memorized the Claymore from a list.
Miria was trapped in a situation were her yoki pill plan was the only way to survive but she was lucky the plan worked and the important characters happened to survive.
If I was to blame Miria for anything it would be for not ordering her Claymore to retreat but if they did this they may be hunted by the Organisation and died. Or Isley's forces could have hunted them down and killed them anyway.
Last edited by TimeMask; January 02, 2013 at 02:56 PM.
I've been seeing this thread around but reluctant to comment on it because I don't think the emphasis is on either choice. I think you are accurate what you say. The yoki pill plan really is the last resort for Miria. However, I think the more important point the story isn't the detail of her strategy, but rather the reason she goes ahead with the plan. Honestly, I think this is a very sad arc because we know that only a handful of warriors survived. Just like you say, I would have wanted them to retreat. But the biggest problem is that they will be found really soon and this would mean certain death. There are two choices:
1) Survive now but die certainly later;
2) 'Die' now and possibly surviving later.
In the first choice, even if they were able to survive, their alive status is still known and will therefore pose a constant danger to them, the weaker ones probably being the first to fall. In the second choice, they would be assumed to have died and can thus escape cleanly, while everyone holds the same chance of survival (both during the final battle eating half a pill, and after battle escaping into the wilderness.) In such a desperate situation, she has not fallen for the temptation of impatiently saving everyone temporarily by retreating (first choice.) She is by no means a worthy leader. Other important examples include:
1) She took the effort to remember everyone's names as you've said. She doesn't just memorise them, she also chooses to use the names, thus initiating a bonding with each of the warriors personally.
2) She uses her experience with Awakened Beings to devise a suitable plan for their very first fight. Although technically a risk for the novices, she determines that this is a necessary risk in order to increase the ability to survive in the battles ahead, all the while covering her true motive to avoid panic en masse. This is luck in the sense that they all survived, but I don't think Miria prioritises that at the time. As a result, they all gain experience together with the raise of morale and bonding between fellow warriors.
I have only taken examples from the Pieta arc but they are more than enough to show her charisma and decision-making quality fit for a leader at least for a small battalion. Other Claymores may have similar strategic skills since they are trained for this after all, especially the ones with experience, but being able to incorporate this into a leading skill certainly deserves respect. Last but not least, Miria has a powerful combat technique which furthers her status as a leader.
But in answer to the question, luck and skills are both important aspects to the final outcome. Especially in Pieta, where they are both sides of the same coin. While she certainly uses luck in her plan, I think her decisions are rational enough to make me say that she doesn't rely on it.
It doesn't look to me that she knows it since she went with her retarded plan anyway and as she said herself, it was mainly because a miracle happened before so it can happen again (at least that's the "reasoning" - if one can call it that - she gave). Plus she has a Clare-crush and she can't live another day without her around. In addition, all she knew about Priscilla was what she heard from Deneve/Helen and what she saw when her projection appeared (i.e. almost nothing besides the fact it's a being far stronger than the ones she saw in Org's HQ). And it was also the first time she saw/heard about an astral projection or something like blob but she suddenly became an expert, lol. Devising such a risky plan while having only this amount of information was utterly stupid on her part.
Also, if you think it was "the only plan that could oppose Prissy"... No it wasn't and it shows how limited your reasoning is (just as Miria's). If Miria and others wouldn't be able to defeat Cassandra then even if they would combine their powers with Cassandra's (which again, was retarded reasoning, why would an AO give them a hand? That's only wishful thinking) it would give them nothing against a being that surpasses AOs. And if they could defeat her then they wouldn't need to free Priscilla from the blob (which in itself would be much better scenario than what Miria had created). What was the rush with letting her escape (besides Yagi wanting something happening so to not have Claymore cancelled)? Within years she could train everyone to at least Yuma level and Miata and some of more talented trainees (plus possibly some single digits) to a level above or close to hers. She could have created a much stronger army than an army of their 6 + Cassandra. And that is only if she would want to deal with the blob.
What's more, how would it be different if they would fight Cassandra while Yuma, Cynthia and Tabatha would be trying to restore her mind BEFORE they would free Clare (besides not having Clare to fight for them)? They would have as high chance of Cassandra helping them defeat Priscilla anyway (in case she would somehow escape from the blob which was unlikely). And most importantly, Miria being a retard is shown when she doesn't consider the fact that Cassandra's mind was being taken under Priscilla's control easily before, even when Priscilla wasn't even there and when they've had a HUGE distance between them. So what made her think that once CYT would be able to snap her out of it Priscilla wouldn't do the Jedi trick again (and with more ease too)? Or just skip this step and absorb Cassandra? Again, she knew nothing about something like this since it was the first time something like that happened (if Dae hasn't heard about it then Miria certainly wouldn't).
How is that even relevant to our discussion (in which I say Miria's plan is stupid and you say it's not)? That only shows that even though it was utterly stupid it had to work since Yagi said so not because Miria's plan had logic in it (it didn't).
And as I've shown above there are many more variables she didn't consider because if she did she would not go with a plan that has absolutely no chance of success. Her plan had as much merit as waiting on asteroid hitting Priscilla in the head (and other body parts).
First a clarification (that is not directly connected with this discussion): i'm NOT a Miria's fanboy, infact i know that she did absurd mistakes in the past.Quote:
You can check if you don't beive me, but i was one of the people saying that,for example, when she attacked the org alone that was a stupid choice.
In that case i even opposed people saying that Miria acted "out of character" exacly because imo Miria was NEVER perfect to begin with.
I say this only because it has to be clear that i'm not someone that think that everything that Miria does is great, i just happen to be convinced that this time her plan was the best bet possible.
It's true that she didn't know a lot about the blob, but this doesn't change the reality: even if she knows little she also knows that since she is the commander she has to take a decision and make a plan anyway, it's not that being afraid and doing nothing is a better option.Quote:
Gooral, as son as Miria saw the blob, she knew for certain that Prissy (or the destroyer) would have freed herself anyway sooner or later,s o like it or not she didn't have the option the option to "wait and see what happens".
Who cares if she had little informations, it's not that just becuase she has little infos Cassy will stop her run and Prissy will stop trying to free herself,lol.
Even Miria knows that she can't really predict what will really happens (and the manga it's pretty clear about this point), she just try to design a scenario where they'll have the best probability to win.
I have doubts myself that ghosts and ABs are really strong enough to kill Cassy, but tbh they are not even trying to kill her in the first place so it's not that easy to understand how powerful the whole "alliance" really is compared to an abyssal, it's possible that they are stronger for all we know.Quote:
And anyway, exactly like we can't know, not even Miria knows for sure, she is just making a risky bet simply because ANY bet in their situation would be incredibly risky anyway.
Miria simply chose to bet everything on the scenario where ALL the forces will oppose Prissy, not because it was the more probable, but because it was the thest scenario possible (and she probably thinks that to defeat Prissy it's necessary to bet on the best scenario possible).
Maybe even the power collected in Miria's best scenario wouldn't be enough to defeat Prissy (and she KNOWS this), but how cares? At least they would have tried to fight with their strongest play, and if that isn't enough, thanANYTHING wouldn't have been enough anyway.
Not really, even ABs decided to work with Miria 'cause they understood that it was their best chance, so why an abyssal shouldn't do the same?Quote:
It's not that abyssals are more evil or hate warriors more than normal ABs, they are the same, just stronger.
Not to mention that Riful probably would have made an alliance with Miria even more easily than the ABs there since she always liked that kind of approach.
---------- Post added at 12:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:25 PM ----------
No, it would be a far worse scenario since Miria saw with her own eyes that Prissy (or the destroyer) would have freed herself anyway sooner or later since in just a few days the shape of the blob changed RAPIDLY.Quote:
Betting on "let's kill Cassy and let's hope that Prissy stay there forever" is NOT a good idea 'cause Prissy wouldn't have stayed trapped in there for long, and when she would have been free the ghosts would have to oppose her with no Cassy and no Claire.......honestly, what you suggest here is not even a bet, it's the same as killing themselves.
---------- Post added at 12:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:31 PM ----------
Are you serious??? Years???
What the hell are you saying, Prissy would have NEVER stayed in that blob for so long since when Hisy was killed Prissy probably awoke from her "sleep", infact it's NOT a coincidence that in just 10 days she begun to free herself.......and you really think that Prissy wouldn't have escaped in years??? Please.....
---------- Post added at 12:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:37 PM ----------
Like you said she wouldn't have Claire to fight with them, and with no Claire Miria knows that her alone can't stop Cassy.
This alone is a good reason to not chose this plan.
Also, she wouldn't even be able to make an alliance with the ABs since they moronically really wanted to see the power of the new super-abyssal, they just didn't imagine that Prissy would have made them her MAIN target,lol.
---------- Post added at 12:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:42 PM ----------
Like you said she doesn't know for certain what will happen, but why would she worry about that? Without Cassy Miria see no hope of victory anyway, so giving up on her is not even an option,lol.
---------- Post added at 12:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:44 PM ----------
I was simply completing my analysis on the situation listing these two big factors that could change the situation in the future, at least i added a consideration new about the situation that comprehended what happened in the last chapters,simple as that.Quote:
Why should miria be different from any other normal warrior.....Miria show's no high intelligence she like Claire is rather dimwitted....was it ever said in the manga that miria is a good strategist(if anything Deneve said many times that Mirias plans are crazy and rely to much on "miracles").
Galatea is an example of a highly intelligent warrior who is also a good strategist.
IMO the problem is that, differently from what some people think, she is not perfect and her greatest weakness (that for certain aspects can be considered even her strongest point) is the fact that she's too emotional,too kind.
a lot of people state that the rebellion thing is total crap. i disagree, but admit it was not as high quality as it should have been. though not because miria did not get seriously injured or something. seriously, part of miria skill set is avoiding injury, which she is fairly good at. that is the whole basis of her phantom technique, to avoid injury and get the drop on her enemy.
miria actually impressed me. she quickly figured out how to get into hysteria's head and took advantage of it. thus she figured out how to fight a far superior opponnent, evne when they awaken.
"Better to be lucky than good"
I've just recently re-watching Yu-Gi-Oh! and I definitely argue the same "Yugi Moto" is considered to be a Legendary Duelist but is he really that brilliant in his strategy in Dueling or Just being Lucky.
Unfortunately, that's how anime and manga works. Strategy and Luck goes hand in hand.
As if the whole strategy is going smoothly by a divine intervention.
What I'm trying t say is that Miria is also a victim of that.
Miria - a re-write.
Done. That's what happened w/her way back then. The warriors "chopped her up" and this is quite clearly shown, and then much later, the writer of the manga decided to bring her back to life and kind of say to the readers "Hey... the warriors actually loved Miria and let her live by staying all of their critical hits to where she lived, kk?"
It's nothing about cunning writing, and frankly Yagi or whoever actually made the final decision on this isn't that great at complicated outcomes that are supported by actual canon. In fact, canon itself was shit-canned about the time that the ZAO plot came to be. Miria's survival to this very day was nothing more than an ass-pull and probably brought about by fan polling (ohhhh nnooooooooooooeeeeesss don't let Miria die!! QQ)