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View Poll Results: Who will win?

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  • Yagyuu Hiroshi/Liliadent Krauser

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  • Date Danji/Ishida Gin

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Thread: [Round 1 - Team 5 vs Team 8 Doubles 1] Yayguu/Krauser vs Date/Ishida G.

  1. #16
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    Re: [Round 1 - Team 5 vs Team 8 Doubles 1] Yayguu/Krauser vs Date/Ishida G.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fayte View Post
    First of all, you do know that Niou's illusion is just that, right? An illusion? An illusion requires someone to be fooled by it.
    First time I read something like this...
    It's not just an Illusion, he's actually able to do Tezuka, Shiraishi, Ryoma, and almost anyone else techs. He is really able to do ZS, ZSS, TZ...

    BUT I agree with you, Yagyuu probably is still better than Niou, he needs some screen time.

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    Re: [Round 1 - Team 5 vs Team 8 Doubles 1] Yayguu/Krauser vs Date/Ishida G.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fayte View Post
    First of all, you do know that Niou's illusion is just that, right? An illusion? An illusion requires someone to be fooled by it. Who is to say Niou is even ABLE to use the illusion transformation technique on Yagyuu? Yagyuu knows Niou better than anybody, and if anybody would see through Niou's tricks, it would be him. I would assume Niou wouldn't even be able to transform into Tezuka because Yagyuu would see through it.

    Also, the only reason you're saying Yagyuu doesn't show improvement is because Yagyuu doesn't show period. He has not had the spotlight yet, whereas Niou did. Just because Niou improved and you're all excited doesn't mean Yagyuu won't still be better when he gets his time to shine.
    I agree with you absolutely, i said the same in a spanish forum, months ago. That is the reason of Niou skill, Illusion, he fools someone, we need to remember, against yagyuu or fuji, he was "exposed" by fuji and in yagyuu match, he knows him better than anybody like you said. so, for me Yagyuu > Niou.

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    Re: [Round 1 - Team 5 vs Team 8 Doubles 1] Yayguu/Krauser vs Date/Ishida G.

    Quote Originally Posted by LetalHawk View Post
    The problem is that Date with his Danji No Natsu and Haru would kill Krauser and Yagyuu. Nakagauchi resisted when Krauser did the Southern Cross many times, and he was completely destroyed when he crashed against the fence because of Danji No Haru. Date uses that and game over, also, neither Yagyuu or Krauser have the same endurance as Kawamura and Kabaji. As soon as Date hits one of his techniques, game over.
    Possibly. We only saw the last shot, but he might have hit more than that one throughout the match. It's a fair point though and I will admit that this mostly relies on abusing Date's apparent speed problems to take him out of the match and concentrate the attack on Gin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    Why does Gin seem like greater liablity?
    108th Hadoukyuu can be hit as a serve too.
    How often though before Gin's arm is destroyed? Kawamura didn't want to use it except as last resort, so I would think Gin is in a similar situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    I said that Yagyuu will take points from it.
    But if Hopping Ball is about Power, Date and Gin have that. Date and Gin should be able to survive that shot since Date is stronger than Nakagauchi.
    This round is disappointingly easy.
    Whether Date survives it is not that relevant as long as he can kill Gin with it. A doubles match ends when one of the players can't continue, so taking out Gin would be enough. Also, this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    I don't think however Yagyuu will be destroyed. Yagyuu in Singles will defeat Gin definetely in Singles, but against Date I don't know but Curving Laser initially seals off The Power shots that have been said to require big swings and preparation to hit.
    I don't think we ever see a clear swinging motion for Danji no Haru/Natsu, but I believe we concluded that it is somewhat similar to HB and Southern Cross, which do have a pretty big swing, so...

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    So Yagyuu is the only guy taking points. In Doubles, Hopping Ball loses its effectiveness. Two Baseliners stand at the baseline making the shot easier to return.
    Krauser holds Yagyuu back.
    Them standing at the baseline will also make drop shots and the like more effective (with which we're back at the speed issue and remember that Yagyuu is a S&V) and their power shots less threatening since they can at least be avoided. If one of them moves up, they have to deal with Curved Laser.

    Also as I said, I can definitely see HB damaging Gin and I don't think he's as agile as Nakagauchi was, so it'd be harder to dodge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    LOL, Krauser and Yagyuu shouldn't completely lose in the Power area? To Gin who is equal to Kawamura? and Date who overpowered Kawamura? I hope I interpreted it wrong.
    Krauser had a 5 in power. I doubt that Gin or Kawamura had more than a 6 at the time of the team shuffle, possibly less. So no, he doesn't lose in power. Yagyuu is a different thing, but I'd expect him to be able to at least deal with the base shots and lower level Hadokyuus.

    Date potentially does overpower them, but I think I touched on that matter enough before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsukihime no uta View Post
    From all this, I would say that he would definitely not be defeated even by two big power players if it was at least singles. But overall, since this is doubles, it depends on how much krauser holds the team back. And unfortunately most of agree that krauser hasnt shown that he is at the level of all the other players since his only matches were losses to kirihara and nakaguchi. There was that win to sakata, but that guy is just a laughing stock. semi-pun intended.
    Pointing at the same page as before, Nakagauchi was just a terrible opponent for Krauser to play against. He's not high tier or anything, but I'd put him at around Gin's level overall.

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    Re: [Round 1 - Team 5 vs Team 8 Doubles 1] Yayguu/Krauser vs Date/Ishida G.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
    How often though before Gin's arm is destroyed? Kawamura didn't want to use it except as last resort, so I would think Gin is in a similar situation.
    Fair enough, but High Level Hadoukyuus should allow Gin to return the Southern Cross.
    I mean, Devil Kirihara had to have been eventually returning HB. I know Kirihara > Gin, but he definetely isnt stronger physically than Gin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
    Whether Date survives it is not that relevant as long as he can kill Gin with it. A doubles match ends when one of the players can't continue, so taking out Gin would be enough. Also, this.
    Gin must be able to handle whatever Krauser throws at him.
    If Kirihara was able to handle HB and be returning the shots, then Gin should be able to.
    Also, Krausers technique is a 2. I have a strong feeling Gin's technique is above 2 and that his Power stat is 5 or above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
    I don't think we ever see a clear swinging motion for Danji no Haru/Natsu, but I believe we concluded that it is somewhat similar to HB and Southern Cross, which do have a pretty big swing, so...
    This just as I already said. Yagyuu can seal off Power shots when he hits the Curving Laser.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
    Them standing at the baseline will also make drop shots and the like more effective (with which we're back at the speed issue and remember that Yagyuu is a S&V) and their power shots less threatening since they can at least be avoided. If one of them moves up, they have to deal with Curved Laser.
    So like I said, its Yagyuu taking the points.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
    Also as I said, I can definitely see HB damaging Gin and I don't think he's as agile as Nakagauchi was, so it'd be harder to dodge.
    HB can be handled with technique. Gin must have technique. Maybe around Krauser's solid 3. Which isn't fairly good.

    Here's Krauser once HB is handled.
    His technique is poor, and HB is not unstoppable if you have the Power or the Technique, and between Date and Gin, I think both of them do.

    It's Southern Cross that could damage Gin, but then again, why can't 80th Hadoukyuu or something damage Krauser?
    I don't see Krauser physically stronger than Kawamura and Gin level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
    Pointing at the same page as before, Nakagauchi was just a terrible opponent for Krauser to play against. He's not high tier or anything, but I'd put him at around Gin's level overall.
    Krauser is nothing besides power. Kirihara showed us a little speed is all you need to kill him.
    Or just being able to handle the HB and this guy cannot win.
    Nakagauchi VS Krauser just showed us again that if HB/Souther Cross isn't doing the job he can't do anything else.

    Gin is better overall, Krauser's special shot cannot be used as a serve.
    Here's Krauser once HB is handled.

    LOL Nakagauchi has just a 2.5 in Speed and he could dodge HB. The Hadoukyuus don't require a long time to ''create the opponents grave post'' and all either.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    And..? Niou wasn't using Illusion for the whole match. That's his single strongest techniques. It's a techniques so powerful that he can turn game around when he's playing Fuji. The basic Niou is so weak that it's simply a joke. Show me any proof that Niou without Illusion is high tier material. I don't think he is. Yagyuu beating Niou without Illusion is not a feat. Since Niou without Illusion is simply crap. Yagyuu, from all of his match, only show;
    Yagyuu did it comfortably however.
    He held back the whole match.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    -He struggle with golden pair without syncho
    -He dominated nameless players with Momoshiro
    -He beat Niou WITHOUT Illusion
    Actually it was with Kaidoh,
    This was back in Regionals. During Regionals, Golden Pair were still an awesome combination.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    I'm just not seeing it. If Niou's not using Illusion, then I'm not giving Yagyuu free pass for "beating" it. I just don't see him that high. I highly doubt Yagyuu can beat Tezuka with Pinnacle of Wisdom and Hard Work. Niou's probably can't using Illusion because he had to "set up" when he's playing Fuji by losing 3 games straight. It just means that he improved now that he can use Illusion from the start of his match. He only have a tiebreak back then. That's my theory on it anyways. And I think Yagyuu being high tier base only on those 3 match is just something I don't see. Tell me if I miss something, but I can't derive Yagyuu=High tier from those 3 matches. I just can't. Before you use the last one as example again, like I said, Niou without Illusion suck. He's not high tier material at all.

    @Fayte; My evidence is simply Niou doesn't use his technique. That's my evidence. Show me evidence that prove your point, too.

    Yagyuu, from what I see, simply didn't beat Niou at Niou's peak. And Yagyuu right now doesn't show any improvement from back then. But since then, Niou grows stronger. I don't think he is at Niou level anymore.
    Do you think Kaidoh is high tier?
    Since Yagyuu > Kaidoh.
    All depends on where you draw the line on the term high tier.
    Last edited by Airgrimes; September 18, 2012 at 02:19 PM.

  5. #20
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    Re: [Round 1 - Team 5 vs Team 8 Doubles 1] Yayguu/Krauser vs Date/Ishida G.

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    Yagyuu did it comfortably however.
    He held back the whole match.
    By using a curved shot? I don't think that curved shot= ZSS, ZSD, Pinnacle of Great Wisdom and Hard Work, or even Bible Tennis. Maybe it's just me. And as I stated before. Even if illusion doesn't work against Yagyuu, that just mean Yagyuu is good at beating Niou. Doesn't mean he's good at beating the rest of the player that Niou can now fight by using Illusion, at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    Actually it was with Kaidoh,
    This was back in Regionals. During Regionals, Golden Pair were still an awesome combination.
    Yeah, with Kaidoh. I remember that wrong. Sorry about that. Golden Pair is actually a failure team that just hardly win prior to Syncho.

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    Do you think Kaidoh is high tier?
    Since Yagyuu > Kaidoh.
    All depends on where you draw the line on the term high tier.
    I certainly think higher than Yagyuu.

    Tornado Snake> Curved Laser and Gryo Laser> Laser

    I know there's argument about Yagyuu base stat being higher before, but now that I look at the whole thing, I just don't think so. Find me a page that show otherwise.
    Most of the thing I post is probably assumption if it's not a fact that I support using some evidence from the manga.

    If you knows you're on my ignore list and you quote my post, there's high chance I would ignore you. Or answer you and not look at your response.

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    Re: [Round 1 - Team 5 vs Team 8 Doubles 1] Yayguu/Krauser vs Date/Ishida G.

    Now I get why Konomi always makes power vs power matches. This matches are always like this: Power player A struggles to return Power player B power tech (with power, lol). What happens if a non-power player is on the court? I don't remember the last time we saw something like that.
    Yagyuu tech stat (which I don't think is really high) is enough to compensate that he is the only player that isn't only power?
    He might be the best player in this match, but he's also the weakest...

    Spoiler show

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    Re: [Round 1 - Team 5 vs Team 8 Doubles 1] Yayguu/Krauser vs Date/Ishida G.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    I certainly think higher than Yagyuu.

    Tornado Snake> Curved Laser and Gryo Laser> Laser

    I know there's argument about Yagyuu base stat being higher before, but now that I look at the whole thing, I just don't think so. Find me a page that show otherwise.
    Curving Laser is higher than Tornado Snake and every shot Kaidoh has besides Gyro Laser.
    But considering the Laser is Yagyuu's technique, there is nothing to suggest it should really work against Yagyuu.

    Looking Atobe knowing how to return Tannhauser Serve, Fuji knowing how to return Higuma Otoshi, Chitose knowing how to return Kamikakushi, and Gin knowing how to return Hadoukyuus.

    Just the way Yagyuu knows Laser inside out, he must know how to handle the shot if used against him.

    You were a part of the argument between Yourself, Kaoz, Fayte and I regarding Kaidoh and Yagyuu and Kirihara. You were unable to come out with a response as to why Kaidoh should not have a higher mental than Kirihara or Yagyuu.

    Kaidoh who had Boomerang Snake returned by another guy who has the same shot, left him standing still deserting his own Doubles partner in fear.
    His Mental stat isn't high. His stamina is amazing.

    In the Nationals, his stamina plan only worked on Mukahi and Hiyoshi because Mukahi sucked so bad. If that was anybody in the Kikumaru's tier and Kaidoh let them reach 5-2 match point, they would have grabbed that match point. It wasn't that genius of a plan.

    Yagyuu was the man who came up with a switch when they met Prior To Nationals, I don't think we need a discussion for why his Mental is above Kaidoh's.
    In terms of technique I believe Yagyuu is higher.

    Just the way we have yet to see Yagyuu lose his composure. Against Golden Pair, despite Kikumaru being able to return the Laser which is probably thanks to his Motion Vision, he couldn't seal it, which is why Yagyuu/Niou went on to win that respective game to make it 6-4.

    Surely since you are convinced Kaidoh is so strong, then you can prove he is better than Yagyuu. Find pages telling us so.

    ---------- Post added at 01:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:15 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Eiji Kikumaru View Post
    He might be the best player in this match, but he's also the weakest...
    Physique isn't everything. And sometimes means nothing.
    Yeah Yagyuu is physically the weakest but look at
    Atobe VS Date. Atobe should win without a doubt.

    Somebody fragile looking like Fuji. Fuji is awesome. Fuji > Date or Gin everyday of every week of every month of every year of every decade (I could go on...)
    But you get the point lol.

  8. #23
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    Re: [Round 1 - Team 5 vs Team 8 Doubles 1] Yayguu/Krauser vs Date/Ishida G.

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    Curving Laser is higher than Tornado Snake and every shot Kaidoh has besides Gyro Laser.
    But considering the Laser is Yagyuu's technique, there is nothing to suggest it should really work against Yagyuu.

    Looking Atobe knowing how to return Tannhauser Serve, Fuji knowing how to return Higuma Otoshi, Chitose knowing how to return Kamikakushi, and Gin knowing how to return Hadoukyuus.

    Just the way Yagyuu knows Laser inside out, he must know how to handle the shot if used against him.

    You were a part of the argument between Yourself, Kaoz, Fayte and I regarding Kaidoh and Yagyuu and Kirihara. You were unable to come out with a response as to why Kaidoh should not have a higher mental than Kirihara or Yagyuu.

    Kaidoh who had Boomerang Snake returned by another guy who has the same shot, left him standing still deserting his own Doubles partner in fear.
    His Mental stat isn't high. His stamina is amazing.

    In the Nationals, his stamina plan only worked on Mukahi and Hiyoshi because Mukahi sucked so bad. If that was anybody in the Kikumaru's tier and Kaidoh let them reach 5-2 match point, they would have grabbed that match point. It wasn't that genius of a plan.

    Yagyuu was the man who came up with a switch when they met Prior To Nationals, I don't think we need a discussion for why his Mental is above Kaidoh's.
    In terms of technique I believe Yagyuu is higher.

    Just the way we have yet to see Yagyuu lose his composure. Against Golden Pair, despite Kikumaru being able to return the Laser which is probably thanks to his Motion Vision, he couldn't seal it, which is why Yagyuu/Niou went on to win that respective game to make it 6-4.
    Gryo Laser is not laser, though. It's faster than laser. It's simply a better technique. It's not the same as the other example, when exact same technique is used against them. Yanagi get rape by this laser along with Kirihara. Are you implying that Yagyuu is stronger than the Rikkai big three? That's my proof. Show me how Yanagi can handle Kaidoh. He can't. I think it's reasonable to assume that Yanagi>Yagyuu.

    Mental is one stat. Just one. So, that's it? That's all Yagyuu is better than Kaidoh? Can that really overcome the combination that Yanagi, the big three, fail to overcome? I think this is enough as a proof.

    And why is curving laser higher than tornado snake? They're both curve. Tornado snake had a path that's harder to hit. So saying that "Curving Laser is higher than Tornado Snake" from what we saw I don't think make sense

    In term of tech "I believe" don't cut it for me. Tornado Snake look harder to actually do than curving laser. If I have to bet my fortune to do one techniques, I'll go with trying to pull curving laser. I also would take a bet to hit a fast curving ball than a ball that can twist in tornado. Gyro Laser is also better than Laser.

    And out of all the thing you say, I have yet seen a proof that Yagyuu is high tier. Golden Pair prior to syncho really IS a joke. Kikumaru fail to return laser doesn't mean Yagyuu is strong for me. Sure, he's stronger than Kikumaru. But how high is Kikumaru in term of ranking, really?

    Like I have said before, looking at each one of his feats. This is just a summary of what I said before. So look at the old post for full version.;

    -Golden Pair: Their track aren't that impressive before they get Syncho. I don't recall the golden pair winning against many memorable player, really.

    -Random team: Anyone could probably do this

    -Niou (no Illusion): 5th counter Fuji raped him. Fighting evenly with him, even if he's holding back his curving laser, really isn't something I would look highly. Sealing Niou's Illusion also isn't something I look at highly. Since it only works against Niou. It means he's best player to play against Niou. But what happen if he fight someone else Niou can fought pretty nicely with Illusion, like say, Ochi and Atobe. I don't think the score track 'll be the same. I don't think Yagyuu can 6-0 No Illusion Niou. I don't think the gap between them is that huge.
    Last edited by -Ken-; September 18, 2012 at 04:16 PM.
    Most of the thing I post is probably assumption if it's not a fact that I support using some evidence from the manga.

    If you knows you're on my ignore list and you quote my post, there's high chance I would ignore you. Or answer you and not look at your response.

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    Re: [Round 1 - Team 5 vs Team 8 Doubles 1] Yayguu/Krauser vs Date/Ishida G.

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    Physique isn't everything. And sometimes means nothing.
    Yeah Yagyuu is physically the weakest but look at
    Atobe VS Date. Atobe should win without a doubt.

    Somebody fragile looking like Fuji. Fuji is awesome. Fuji > Date or Gin everyday of every week of every month of every year of every decade (I could go on...)
    But you get the point lol.
    Yes I know, but remember Kawamura vs Gin. Taka was flying around the whole match, and he IS really powerful. What are the chances of Yagyuu returning a 100 th style Hadoukyuu?

    THAT'S the reason why Konomi always makes power vs power matches.

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    Re: [Round 1 - Team 5 vs Team 8 Doubles 1] Yayguu/Krauser vs Date/Ishida G.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    Gryo Laser is not laser, though. It's faster than laser. It's simply a better technique. It's not the same as the other example, when exact same technique is used against them. Yanagi get rape by this laser along with Kirihara. Are you implying that Yagyuu is stronger than the Rikkai big three? That's my proof. Show me how Yanagi can handle Kaidoh. He can't. I think it's reasonable to assume that Yanagi>Yagyuu.
    Your now saying Kaidoh > Yanagi?
    Secondly, yeah its faster but the principle is still the same. Nothing has changed, it's still based off what Yagyuu knows inside out.
    It only got past Yanagi a few times. Who says it would have worked against Yanagi for several games?

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    Mental is one stat. Just one. So, that's it? That's all Yagyuu is better than Kaidoh? Can that really overcome the combination that Yanagi, the big three, fail to overcome? I think this is enough as a proof.
    Yanagi is not on the level of the other big 3 Sanada and Yuki, so you can stop saying Big 3, since the other two are levels above him.
    Secondly it overcame him for a game or two at best. What's to say Yanagi wouldn't eventually find mannerisms in Kaidoh's play after 3-4 games?

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    And why is curving laser higher than tornado snake? They're both curve. Tornado snake had a path that's harder to hit. So saying that "Curving Laser is higher than Tornado Snake" from what we saw I don't think make sense
    It makes perfect sense. Tornado is not a fast shot. It must be somewhat slow with all the turns it makes before landing.
    Curving Laser is a high speed shot that the opponent cannot predict.
    If Curving Laser is the upgrade to Laser that Kirihara had trouble with, but Tornado Snake was returned by Kirihara in the instance he saw it, how can you say Tornado Snake is higher?
    How can you even value it so highly if Kirihara returned it whilst laughing. Kaidoh only has Gyro Snake to make him a Top tier player.
    He needs improvement in SPoT since without it, he is average.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    In term of tech "I believe" don't cut it for me. Tornado Snake look harder to actually do than curving laser. If I have to bet my fortune to do one techniques, I'll go with trying to pull curving laser. I also would take a bet to hit a fast curving ball than a ball that can twist in tornado. Gyro Laser is also better than Laser.
    WHY?
    Tornado Snake is slower, yeah it has Gyro spin, but it only looked amazing because it was against an exhausted Hiyoshi and Mukahi.
    Didn't do a thing against Kirihara or Yanagi. Not a thing against higher tier players.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    And out of all the thing you say, I have yet seen a proof that Yagyuu is high tier. Golden Pair prior to syncho really IS a joke. Kikumaru fail to return laser doesn't mean Yagyuu is strong for me. Sure, he's stronger than Kikumaru. But how high is Kikumaru in term of ranking, really?
    We don't need to go by a Doubles match where he and Niou played with Non-dominant hands for half the game.
    We can't judge their abilities by that game since we don't know how serious either of them were.

    Remember Yagyuu faking a loss against that Nagoya guy? He's a trickster nearly as much as Niou is. We don't know how much effort they were putting in.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    Like I have said before, looking at each one of his feats. This is just a summary of what I said before. So look at the old post for full version.;

    -Golden Pair: Their track aren't that impressive before they get Syncho. I don't recall the golden pair winning against many memorable player, really.
    BS. They beat Jimmies, Would have beaten Oshitari Yushi and Mukahi too.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    -Random team: Anyone could probably do this
    Nonsense, unproven and purely opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    -Niou (no Illusion): 5th counter Fuji raped him.
    Don't be stupid. Niou is awesome, remember Rikkai said he should stop playing around after 4-0 to Fuji?
    Sanada was the one to tell him to get serious, since his whole team could see he wasn't playing at his best.
    Nobody in Rikkai was flustered by the scoreline, yet only Yukimura knew about Niou's illusion.

    This implies that when he played Fuji before Illusion he was just messing around.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    Fighting evenly with him, even if he's holding back his curving laser, really isn't something I would look highly.
    Seeing that we don't and nobody, knows Base!Niou's real level don't know how we should use this.

    What we do know, is that the same threat that Kaidoh posed, of being able to use Tornado Snake and Gyro Laser from the same stance, Yagyuu can too with Laserbeam and Curving Laser. We also know Kaidoh only knows Laser thanks to Yagyuu who knows the technique inside out.

    You cannot prove Kaidoh is physically stronger than Yagyuu, You cannot prove he is faster either, You also cannot prove he has better technique but I can prove in terms of Mental Kaidoh is low. Kaidoh definetely wins in stamina though.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    Sealing Niou's Illusion also isn't something I look at highly. Since it only works against Niou. It means he's best player to play against Niou. But what happen if he fight someone else Niou can fought pretty nicely with Illusion, like say, Ochi and Atobe. I don't think the score track 'll be the same. I don't think Yagyuu can 6-0 No Illusion Niou. I don't think the gap between them is that huge.
    Not my argument. This argument was with Fayte not me man.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Fayte's Avatar
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    Re: [Round 1 - Team 5 vs Team 8 Doubles 1] Yayguu/Krauser vs Date/Ishida G.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eiji Kikumaru View Post
    First time I read something like this...
    It's not just an Illusion, he's actually able to do Tezuka, Shiraishi, Ryoma, and almost anyone else techs. He is really able to do ZS, ZSS, TZ...
    If he is simply doing the techniques, then it isn't an illusion. He is just doing his own version of Muga. Nobody said Echizen was some "Illusion Master" because he was able to copy peoples techniques with Muga against Sanada, so it isn't about just copying techniques. Niou is able to copy the very nature of the person. Also, we learned that Niou was unable to be Tezuka-level in his match with Fuji, and that is not simply because he was unable to do ZSS. It is because Niou is just a shadow (illusion), and Tezuka is the real thing. Fuji acknowledged Niou was not on par with Tezuka, so I stand by my guns in saying what Niou does is an illusion, and not the real thing.

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  13. #27
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member -Ken-'s Avatar
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    Re: [Round 1 - Team 5 vs Team 8 Doubles 1] Yayguu/Krauser vs Date/Ishida G.

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    Your now saying Kaidoh > Yanagi?
    Secondly, yeah its faster but the principle is still the same. Nothing has changed, it's still based off what Yagyuu knows inside out.
    It only got past Yanagi a few times. Who says it would have worked against Yanagi for several games?
    Who say it wouldn't? This is simply a guess. From what we've seen. It works against Yanagi. And that's cannon. So unless you can prove it doesn't, I'm going with the manga rather than you. Thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    Yanagi is not on the level of the other big 3 Sanada and Yuki, so you can stop saying Big 3, since the other two are levels above him.
    Secondly it overcame him for a game or two at best. What's to say Yanagi wouldn't eventually find mannerisms in Kaidoh's play after 3-4 games?
    Again, opinion. Not proven. My point is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    It makes perfect sense. Tornado is not a fast shot. It must be somewhat slow with all the turns it makes before landing.
    Curving Laser is a high speed shot that the opponent cannot predict.
    If Curving Laser is the upgrade to Laser that Kirihara had trouble with, but Tornado Snake was returned by Kirihara in the instance he saw it, how can you say Tornado Snake is higher?
    How can you even value it so highly if Kirihara returned it whilst laughing. Kaidoh only has Gyro Snake to make him a Top tier player.
    He needs improvement in SPoT since without it, he is average.
    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/princ...s/c357/11.html

    Actually, it's suggest that Tornado Snake is also fairly quick along with the laser here, hence invincible. Also, Yagyuu curve is say by Kaidoh during the their match with random schooler that it is WEAKER than his. And I don't find anymore comment that Yagyuu curve shot has improve in chapter 7 of Shin Prince of Tennis. Hence, again, I'm just gonna go with the manga. And it doesn't have to be slow with all the turn. It's fast enough that it leaves after image that we saw as in tornado. It's not a slow shot by anymeans. I give you a page that highly suggest Kirihara is given data by Yanagi to return Tornado Snake before, that's why Kirihara can return it on first try. But again, If Tornado Snake is as slow as you say, Kirihara, with his half step tech (it is shown that he have it at beginning of the series), can try to cover all move as Gyro laser and use half step to close in on Tornado snake. He doesn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    Y?
    WHY?
    Tornado Snake is slower, yeah it has Gyro spin, but it only looked amazing because it was against an exhausted Hiyoshi and Mukahi.
    Didn't do a thing against Kirihara or Yanagi. Not a thing against higher tier players.
    I shouldn't just take thing you say as fact. It's clear that you can't prove tornado snake to be slower. However, I can't prove that it is fast either. And the same thing with curve beam. So that's why I'm going off what is harder to do here. Tornado Snake look harder to do. So I'm saying that it should require high tech. OTherwise, we can both try to find real life video to see which one is closer to the one people can do in real life.

    Again, Tornado Snake is high tier enough of a tech once it's used together with Gyro Laser. Kirihara+ Yanagi is raped by it. I'll echo myself again, can Yagyuu beat Yanagi? I don't think so. And it seemed like you give Yanagi free pass that he can return the shot given couple more game. I'm not doing that. I'm going off what the manga says. So unless you can show me PAGES from the manga that prove otherwise other than simply wall of texts that's fill with opinions and not fact from the manga, don't bother replying anymore. This is getting too long for my taste.

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    for half the game.
    We can't judge their abilities by that game since we don't know how serious either of them were.

    Remember Yagyuu faking a loss against that Nagoya guy? He's a trickster nearly as much as Niou is. We don't know how much effort they were putting in.
    We're not? But because they do that, they destroy Golden Pair morale. And it forced the golden to adjust to 2 laser speed instead of just 1. It's a trick they use to win, not play around. I'm pretty sure you're the one I say this to before, because back then, you used this same argument too. And I've shown you the exact page already. I can dig the page out if you want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    BS. They beat Jimmies, Would have beaten Oshitari Yushi and Mukahi too.
    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/princ...is/c128/3.html

    Yeah. Jimmy. Any other notable win? And Jimmy also is a pretty weak player team all together. And no, it doesn't look like they would have beaten Yuushi+Makahi for me. Unless you're saying the character themselves are wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post

    Nonsense, unproven and purely opinion.
    K. insert this in your quote about Yagyuu can return Gyro laser and Tornado snake being slower. Thanks. You're giving undue credits that Yagyuu doesn't deserve BECAUSE you think he is high tier. I don't think he is.

    I'll change this then. Any players invited to U-17 can do it. That's why I say anyone. I thought that was clear. Apparently, it isn't. It's a freaking random players. How about you prove this statement of yours.

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    Don't be stupid. Niou is awesome, remember Rikkai said he should stop playing around after 4-0 to Fuji?
    Sanada was the one to tell him to get serious, since his whole team could see he wasn't playing at his best.
    Nobody in Rikkai was flustered by the scoreline, yet only Yukimura knew about Niou's illusion.

    This implies that when he played Fuji before Illusion he was just messing around.
    K. So prove that base Niou without Illusion can get a point of Fuji. Right. You can't. So,

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    Nonsense, unproven and purely opinion.
    Niou needs Illusion to get point off Fuji. And EVERY SINGLE POINT he get off Fuji is when he used Illusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    What we do know, is that the same threat that Kaidoh posed, of being able to use Tornado Snake and Gyro Laser from the same stance, Yagyuu can too with Laserbeam and Curving Laser. We also know Kaidoh only knows Laser thanks to Yagyuu who knows the technique inside out.

    You cannot prove Kaidoh is physically stronger than Yagyuu, You cannot prove he is faster either, You also cannot prove he has better technique but I can prove in terms of Mental Kaidoh is low. Kaidoh definetely wins in stamina though.
    So mental Yagyuu> Kaidoh. Stamina Kaidoh>Yagyuu. And in the end, Yagyuu>Kaidoh, where did that came from? At least, in the manga

    -Gyro laser is faster than Yagyuu own laser
    -Yagyuu curve IS NOT stated to be faster than tornado snake. So since it is not stated, it's pretty useless to keep going back and forth about this, as this one shot is purely opinion-based.

    Yagyuu knows laser. Not Gyro laser. Gyro laser is obviously harder to hit back. Yanagi can probably return laser fine, too. It's kind of like how Kikumaru get used to Niou laser speed and fail with the real one.

    Yeah, so because the two of them can do the straight or curve tech, so they're even on that. But Kaidoh stamina will actually be better for this than Yagyuu. The number of set match will also decide this. It's unknown if Kaidoh stamina is enough to kick in in 1 set match, but I think the advantage is definitely Kaidoh in a 3 set match if they're both going for 1st stringer position.

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    Not my argument. This argument was with Fayte not me man.
    I knows. I just said this because I want to avoid saying the exact same thing over and over.

    I don't think this is going anywhere, though.
    Most of the thing I post is probably assumption if it's not a fact that I support using some evidence from the manga.

    If you knows you're on my ignore list and you quote my post, there's high chance I would ignore you. Or answer you and not look at your response.

  14. #28
    Intl Translator 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Airgrimes's Avatar
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    Post Re: [Round 1 - Team 5 vs Team 8 Doubles 1] Yayguu/Krauser vs Date/Ishida G.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    Who say it wouldn't? This is simply a guess. From what we've seen. It works against Yanagi. And that's cannon. So unless you can prove it doesn't, I'm going with the manga rather than you. Thanks.
    I think it's wrong to assume Kaidoh > Yanagi based off of a few points.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    Again, opinion. Not proven. My point is.
    How have you proven that Gyro Laser will work for the duration of a whole set? If Yanagi worked out how to return Waterfall and Tornado Snake so quickly why shouldn't he eventually handle Gyro Laser?

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/princ...s/c357/11.html

    Actually, it's suggest that Tornado Snake is also fairly quick along with the laser here, hence invincible.
    It was never said it was anywhere near as fast as a Laser. Also, Curving Laser is the same speed as the actual Laser. So really, Tornado simply isn't as fast.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    Also, Yagyuu curve is say by Kaidoh during the their match with random schooler that it is WEAKER than his. And I don't find anymore comment that Yagyuu curve shot has improve in chapter 7 of Shin Prince of Tennis.
    This is silly. Your comparing the Snake that Yagyuu hit Prior To Nationals, to the Curving Laser that Yagyuu hit at the U-17 Camp?
    Just the fact such a long time has passed since then, and that Yagyuu can now combine it with his Laser means it obviously must have improved.
    That should be obvious to everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    Hence, again, I'm just gonna go with the manga. And it doesn't have to be slow with all the turn. It's fast enough that it leaves after image that we saw as in tornado. It's not a slow shot by anymeans. I give you a page that highly suggest Kirihara is given data by Yanagi to return Tornado Snake before, that's why Kirihara can return it on first try.
    An After image is what indicates to you it must be fast? I can't take this statement seriously. It's stupid.
    Oishi's Moon Volley does the same thing.
    Kai's Viking Horn does the same.
    I can find plenty examples as to why your example means nothing.
    Also, if Yanagi has data on it as you say, why do you think it will work on him for a whole set?
    I don't think Gyro Laser is faster than Waterfall personally. Serve's should be faster.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    But again, If Tornado Snake is as slow as you say, Kirihara, with his half step tech (it is shown that he have it at beginning of the series), can try to cover all move as Gyro laser and use half step to close in on Tornado snake. He doesn't.
    Irrelevant. He cannot use Split step if he doesn't know whether Gyro laser or Tornado Snake is coming.
    This proves nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    I shouldn't just take thing you say as fact. It's clear that you can't prove tornado snake to be slower. However, I can't prove that it is fast either. And the same thing with curve beam. So that's why I'm going off what is harder to do here.
    I can. The Curving Laser, is just a Curving Laser. The Laser is said to be extremely fast. And the curving laser is the exact same speed as the Laser.
    While the Tornado Snake has never been called ''fast''. Ever.
    So it's you who needs to prove why you will go against the manga and say Tornado Snake is fast like Laser has been said to be fast.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    Tornado Snake look harder to do. So I'm saying that it should require high tech. OTherwise, we can both try to find real life video to see which one is closer to the one people can do in real life.
    Your using Real life? for PoT Logic? You know that makes no sense.
    Neither are possible in real life so good luck in trying.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    Again, Tornado Snake is high tier enough of a tech once it's used together with Gyro Laser. Kirihara+ Yanagi is raped by it. I'll echo myself again, can Yagyuu beat Yanagi? I don't think so.
    Tornado Snake is only high tier once combined with Gyro Laser.
    Kirihara and Yanagi could not handle it for 1 game. making it 4-1.
    That one game is all we saw it in.
    Despite having it, Kirihara managed to control the game and take it to 5-1.

    So when they said Kaidoh is invincible, I think somebody somewhere was exaggerating.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    And it seemed like you give Yanagi free pass that he can return the shot given couple more game. I'm not doing that. I'm going off what the manga says. So unless you can show me PAGES from the manga that prove otherwise other than simply wall of texts that's fill with opinions and not fact from the manga, don't bother replying anymore. This is getting too long for my taste.
    You're also doing the same thing. Don't try to be clever here.
    You are judging a whole set off of one game.
    The game after, Kaidoh was involved in the rally but Kirihara was still able to play how he wanted. Kaidoh isn't invincible.
    Unless you want to run away without proving your point.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    We're not? But because they do that, they destroy Golden Pair morale. And it forced the golden to adjust to 2 laser speed instead of just 1. It's a trick they use to win, not play around. I'm pretty sure you're the one I say this to before, because back then, you used this same argument too. And I've shown you the exact page already. I can dig the page out if you want.
    Either way, Golden Pair weren't crap at the time. They have been a strong pair for a while. I don't know why you're saying they sucked without Synchro. They didn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/princ...is/c128/3.html

    Yeah. Jimmy. Any other notable win? And Jimmy also is a pretty weak player team all together. And no, it doesn't look like they would have beaten Yuushi+Makahi for me. Unless you're saying the character themselves are wrong.
    I'll admit I was wrong about the latter.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    K. insert this in your quote about Yagyuu can return Gyro laser and Tornado snake being slower. Thanks. You're giving undue credits that Yagyuu doesn't deserve BECAUSE you think he is high tier. I don't think he is.
    Well, I'll say it again. Laser is known as fast. Curving Laser is the same speed as Laser.
    Tornado Snake has never been called ''fast'' by Konomi.
    Its been called fast by you, and YOU are NOT Konomi.

    You are giving Tornado Snake undue credits.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    I'll change this then. Any players invited to U-17 can do it. That's why I say anyone. I thought that was clear. Apparently, it isn't. It's a freaking random players. How about you prove this statement of yours.
    It wasn't clear at all. You said Random.
    Saying any player invited to U-17 is a bit off too.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    K. So prove that base Niou without Illusion can get a point of Fuji. Right. You can't. So,
    http://www.mangareader.net/422-27257...apter-360.html
    There is his teammate, knowing full well that Niou isn't playing seriously.
    So how on earth can you judge Niou on that performance if it is proven Niou wasn't playing seriously?? I have PROOF Niou wasn't serious.
    Sanada didn't even know about Illusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    Niou needs Illusion to get point off Fuji. And EVERY SINGLE POINT he get off Fuji is when he used Illusion.
    http://www.mangareader.net/422-27257...apter-360.html
    Maybe. The readers do not know. We only know Niou cannot win against Fuji without it. We don't know about getting points though.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    So mental Yagyuu> Kaidoh. Stamina Kaidoh>Yagyuu. And in the end, Yagyuu>Kaidoh, where did that came from? At least, in the manga

    -Gyro laser is faster than Yagyuu own laser
    -Yagyuu curve IS NOT stated to be faster than tornado snake. So since it is not stated, it's pretty useless to keep going back and forth about this, as this one shot is purely opinion-based.
    Common sense tells you that if Tornado Snake has never been called ''extremely Fast'' yet Laserbeam has been called fast, then Laserbeam is the faster one.

    That's common sense though. I guess we don't all have it. I guess I have at least a bit of it to notice this obvious thing.

    It's not my opinion, its Konomi. Konomi says laser is fast, he doesn't say Tornado Snake is ''extremely fast''. You don't believe Konomi?

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    Yagyuu knows laser. Not Gyro laser. Gyro laser is obviously harder to hit back. Yanagi can probably return laser fine, too. It's kind of like how Kikumaru get used to Niou laser speed and fail with the real one.

    Yeah, so because the two of them can do the straight or curve tech, so they're even on that. But Kaidoh stamina will actually be better for this than Yagyuu. The number of set match will also decide this. It's unknown if Kaidoh stamina is enough to kick in in 1 set match, but I think the advantage is definitely Kaidoh in a 3 set match if they're both going for 1st stringer position.
    Your first valid point I can accept.
    Kaidoh has more stamina. True. Kaidoh has Gyro, not Curving Laser though.

    Your free to run away from this Ken.

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  16. #29
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member -Ken-'s Avatar
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    Re: [Round 1 - Team 5 vs Team 8 Doubles 1] Yayguu/Krauser vs Date/Ishida G.

    @ the whole Yanagi thing

    So you're assuming Yanagi can return it. Yanagi has 2 days after Kaidoh and Inui reveal those tech in their match with Hyotei. You and I both don't know what'll happen if the game go on. But because we don't know, predicting what will happen is all assumption. So I'm going off what we can confirm right now in the manga; Yanagi can't handle Kaidoh so far. So I'm not giving him a free pass. You're free to give it to him if you want. Can I also say Tezuka and Echizen without PoP can probably find a way around to beat Rai now that they seen it so many times and had so long to find the counter to it?


    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post

    This is silly. Your comparing the Snake that Yagyuu hit Prior To Nationals, to the Curving Laser that Yagyuu hit at the U-17 Camp?
    Just the fact such a long time has passed since then, and that Yagyuu can now combine it with his Laser means it obviously must have improved.
    That should be obvious to everyone.
    The only thing that have been confirm is that he can hit curve shot using same pose as laser. Nothing else is confirm about that shot. This is all assumption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    http://www.mangareader.net/422-27257...apter-360.html
    There is his teammate, knowing full well that Niou isn't playing seriously.
    So how on earth can you judge Niou on that performance if it is proven Niou wasn't playing seriously?? I have PROOF Niou wasn't serious.
    Sanada didn't even know about Illusion.

    http://www.mangareader.net/422-27257...apter-360.html
    Maybe. The readers do not know. We only know Niou cannot win against Fuji without it. We don't know about getting points though.
    So we both can't prove otherwise. So we know that Fuji>Niou without Illusion. Getting no points might be going too far. But anyways, it still doesn't disprove that Niou can probably win against Yagyuu if Illusion does work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    Common sense tells you that if Tornado Snake has never been called ''extremely Fast'' yet Laserbeam has been called fast, then Laserbeam is the faster one.

    That's common sense though. I guess we don't all have it. I guess I have at least a bit of it to notice this obvious thing.

    It's not my opinion, its Konomi. Konomi says laser is fast, he doesn't say Tornado Snake is ''extremely fast''. You don't believe Konomi?

    Yeah, so because the two of them can do the straight or curve tech, so they're even on that. But Kaidoh stamina will actually be better for this than Yagyuu. The number of set match will also decide this. It's unknown if Kaidoh stamina is enough to kick in in 1 set match, but I think the advantage is definitely Kaidoh in a 3 set match if they're both going for 1st stringer position.
    Your first valid point I can accept.
    Kaidoh has more stamina. True. Kaidoh has Gyro, not Curving Laser though.
    Kaidoh curve tech is snake and everyone of its variant, his signature move. There's 3 possible here (normal, tornado, and the one around the pole). So they both do have straight and curve tech. In fact, Yagyuu have to handle 3 possible snake+laser. As in, take a guess as to what kind of shot it is. My point here is that

    -Kaidoh surpass Yagyuu signature move, laser
    -Yagyuu curve laser vs Kaidoh tornado snake is unknown which one is better overall. Even if curve laser has speed, tornado snake has a harder to hit path. Speed isn't everything in a ball. I'll say from what we saw, which is curve laser and tornado snake is better as an overall tech cannot be decided. But the reason I'm giving this to Kaidoh is because snake is his original signature technique. I don't giv credit to Yagyuu here because his tech doesn't said to surpass tornado snake, which is Kaidoh best curve at that time. So

    -Yagyuu signature is already been surpass for sure (we know this from Gyro laser faster comment)
    -Tornado Snake>Curve laser or Curve laser>Tornado snake is unconfirmed

    So going off just what is absolutely confirm, I think Kaidoh tech seemed to be higher for right now.
    Most of the thing I post is probably assumption if it's not a fact that I support using some evidence from the manga.

    If you knows you're on my ignore list and you quote my post, there's high chance I would ignore you. Or answer you and not look at your response.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Fuji Shusuke's Avatar
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    Re: [Round 1 - Team 5 vs Team 8 Doubles 1] Yayguu/Krauser vs Date/Ishida G.

    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/princ...s/c323/14.html

    Tornado Snake is 0.02 seconds faster than any other straight ball. Since the shot is so much faster than regular shots, I reckon it is much faster than Laser Beam *sarcasm*
    "Sorry, but I never lose to the same opponent twice." - Fuji

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