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Translations: Gintama 515 by kewl0210
Yagyuu Hiroshi/Liliadent Krauser
Date Danji/Ishida Gin
It's not just an Illusion, he's actually able to do Tezuka, Shiraishi, Ryoma, and almost anyone else techs. He is really able to do ZS, ZSS, TZ...
BUT I agree with you, Yagyuu probably is still better than Niou, he needs some screen time.
Also as I said, I can definitely see HB damaging Gin and I don't think he's as agile as Nakagauchi was, so it'd be harder to dodge.
Date potentially does overpower them, but I think I touched on that matter enough before.
I mean, Devil Kirihara had to have been eventually returning HB. I know Kirihara > Gin, but he definetely isnt stronger physically than Gin.
If Kirihara was able to handle HB and be returning the shots, then Gin should be able to.
Also, Krausers technique is a 2. I have a strong feeling Gin's technique is above 2 and that his Power stat is 5 or above.
Here's Krauser once HB is handled.
His technique is poor, and HB is not unstoppable if you have the Power or the Technique, and between Date and Gin, I think both of them do.
It's Southern Cross that could damage Gin, but then again, why can't 80th Hadoukyuu or something damage Krauser?
I don't see Krauser physically stronger than Kawamura and Gin level.
Or just being able to handle the HB and this guy cannot win.
Nakagauchi VS Krauser just showed us again that if HB/Souther Cross isn't doing the job he can't do anything else.
Gin is better overall, Krauser's special shot cannot be used as a serve.
Here's Krauser once HB is handled.
LOL Nakagauchi has just a 2.5 in Speed and he could dodge HB. The Hadoukyuus don't require a long time to ''create the opponents grave post'' and all either.
He held back the whole match.
This was back in Regionals. During Regionals, Golden Pair were still an awesome combination.
Since Yagyuu > Kaidoh.
All depends on where you draw the line on the term high tier.
Last edited by Airgrimes; September 18, 2012 at 02:19 PM.
Tornado Snake> Curved Laser and Gryo Laser> Laser
I know there's argument about Yagyuu base stat being higher before, but now that I look at the whole thing, I just don't think so. Find me a page that show otherwise.
Now I get why Konomi always makes power vs power matches. This matches are always like this: Power player A struggles to return Power player B power tech (with power, lol). What happens if a non-power player is on the court? I don't remember the last time we saw something like that.
Yagyuu tech stat (which I don't think is really high) is enough to compensate that he is the only player that isn't only power?
He might be the best player in this match, but he's also the weakest...
But considering the Laser is Yagyuu's technique, there is nothing to suggest it should really work against Yagyuu.
Looking Atobe knowing how to return Tannhauser Serve, Fuji knowing how to return Higuma Otoshi, Chitose knowing how to return Kamikakushi, and Gin knowing how to return Hadoukyuus.
Just the way Yagyuu knows Laser inside out, he must know how to handle the shot if used against him.
You were a part of the argument between Yourself, Kaoz, Fayte and I regarding Kaidoh and Yagyuu and Kirihara. You were unable to come out with a response as to why Kaidoh should not have a higher mental than Kirihara or Yagyuu.
Kaidoh who had Boomerang Snake returned by another guy who has the same shot, left him standing still deserting his own Doubles partner in fear.
His Mental stat isn't high. His stamina is amazing.
In the Nationals, his stamina plan only worked on Mukahi and Hiyoshi because Mukahi sucked so bad. If that was anybody in the Kikumaru's tier and Kaidoh let them reach 5-2 match point, they would have grabbed that match point. It wasn't that genius of a plan.
Yagyuu was the man who came up with a switch when they met Prior To Nationals, I don't think we need a discussion for why his Mental is above Kaidoh's.
In terms of technique I believe Yagyuu is higher.
Just the way we have yet to see Yagyuu lose his composure. Against Golden Pair, despite Kikumaru being able to return the Laser which is probably thanks to his Motion Vision, he couldn't seal it, which is why Yagyuu/Niou went on to win that respective game to make it 6-4.
Surely since you are convinced Kaidoh is so strong, then you can prove he is better than Yagyuu. Find pages telling us so.
---------- Post added at 01:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:15 PM ----------
Yeah Yagyuu is physically the weakest but look at
Atobe VS Date. Atobe should win without a doubt.
Somebody fragile looking like Fuji. Fuji is awesome. Fuji > Date or Gin everyday of every week of every month of every year of every decade (I could go on...)
But you get the point lol.
Mental is one stat. Just one. So, that's it? That's all Yagyuu is better than Kaidoh? Can that really overcome the combination that Yanagi, the big three, fail to overcome? I think this is enough as a proof.
And why is curving laser higher than tornado snake? They're both curve. Tornado snake had a path that's harder to hit. So saying that "Curving Laser is higher than Tornado Snake" from what we saw I don't think make sense
In term of tech "I believe" don't cut it for me. Tornado Snake look harder to actually do than curving laser. If I have to bet my fortune to do one techniques, I'll go with trying to pull curving laser. I also would take a bet to hit a fast curving ball than a ball that can twist in tornado. Gyro Laser is also better than Laser.
And out of all the thing you say, I have yet seen a proof that Yagyuu is high tier. Golden Pair prior to syncho really IS a joke. Kikumaru fail to return laser doesn't mean Yagyuu is strong for me. Sure, he's stronger than Kikumaru. But how high is Kikumaru in term of ranking, really?
Like I have said before, looking at each one of his feats. This is just a summary of what I said before. So look at the old post for full version.;
-Golden Pair: Their track aren't that impressive before they get Syncho. I don't recall the golden pair winning against many memorable player, really.
-Random team: Anyone could probably do this
-Niou (no Illusion): 5th counter Fuji raped him. Fighting evenly with him, even if he's holding back his curving laser, really isn't something I would look highly. Sealing Niou's Illusion also isn't something I look at highly. Since it only works against Niou. It means he's best player to play against Niou. But what happen if he fight someone else Niou can fought pretty nicely with Illusion, like say, Ochi and Atobe. I don't think the score track 'll be the same. I don't think Yagyuu can 6-0 No Illusion Niou. I don't think the gap between them is that huge.
Last edited by -Ken-; September 18, 2012 at 04:16 PM.
Secondly, yeah its faster but the principle is still the same. Nothing has changed, it's still based off what Yagyuu knows inside out.
It only got past Yanagi a few times. Who says it would have worked against Yanagi for several games?
Secondly it overcame him for a game or two at best. What's to say Yanagi wouldn't eventually find mannerisms in Kaidoh's play after 3-4 games?
Curving Laser is a high speed shot that the opponent cannot predict.
If Curving Laser is the upgrade to Laser that Kirihara had trouble with, but Tornado Snake was returned by Kirihara in the instance he saw it, how can you say Tornado Snake is higher?
How can you even value it so highly if Kirihara returned it whilst laughing. Kaidoh only has Gyro Snake to make him a Top tier player.
He needs improvement in SPoT since without it, he is average.
Tornado Snake is slower, yeah it has Gyro spin, but it only looked amazing because it was against an exhausted Hiyoshi and Mukahi.
Didn't do a thing against Kirihara or Yanagi. Not a thing against higher tier players.
We can't judge their abilities by that game since we don't know how serious either of them were.
Remember Yagyuu faking a loss against that Nagoya guy? He's a trickster nearly as much as Niou is. We don't know how much effort they were putting in.
Sanada was the one to tell him to get serious, since his whole team could see he wasn't playing at his best.
Nobody in Rikkai was flustered by the scoreline, yet only Yukimura knew about Niou's illusion.
This implies that when he played Fuji before Illusion he was just messing around.
What we do know, is that the same threat that Kaidoh posed, of being able to use Tornado Snake and Gyro Laser from the same stance, Yagyuu can too with Laserbeam and Curving Laser. We also know Kaidoh only knows Laser thanks to Yagyuu who knows the technique inside out.
You cannot prove Kaidoh is physically stronger than Yagyuu, You cannot prove he is faster either, You also cannot prove he has better technique but I can prove in terms of Mental Kaidoh is low. Kaidoh definetely wins in stamina though.
Actually, it's suggest that Tornado Snake is also fairly quick along with the laser here, hence invincible. Also, Yagyuu curve is say by Kaidoh during the their match with random schooler that it is WEAKER than his. And I don't find anymore comment that Yagyuu curve shot has improve in chapter 7 of Shin Prince of Tennis. Hence, again, I'm just gonna go with the manga. And it doesn't have to be slow with all the turn. It's fast enough that it leaves after image that we saw as in tornado. It's not a slow shot by anymeans. I give you a page that highly suggest Kirihara is given data by Yanagi to return Tornado Snake before, that's why Kirihara can return it on first try. But again, If Tornado Snake is as slow as you say, Kirihara, with his half step tech (it is shown that he have it at beginning of the series), can try to cover all move as Gyro laser and use half step to close in on Tornado snake. He doesn't.
Again, Tornado Snake is high tier enough of a tech once it's used together with Gyro Laser. Kirihara+ Yanagi is raped by it. I'll echo myself again, can Yagyuu beat Yanagi? I don't think so. And it seemed like you give Yanagi free pass that he can return the shot given couple more game. I'm not doing that. I'm going off what the manga says. So unless you can show me PAGES from the manga that prove otherwise other than simply wall of texts that's fill with opinions and not fact from the manga, don't bother replying anymore. This is getting too long for my taste.
Yeah. Jimmy. Any other notable win? And Jimmy also is a pretty weak player team all together. And no, it doesn't look like they would have beaten Yuushi+Makahi for me. Unless you're saying the character themselves are wrong.
I'll change this then. Any players invited to U-17 can do it. That's why I say anyone. I thought that was clear. Apparently, it isn't. It's a freaking random players. How about you prove this statement of yours.
-Gyro laser is faster than Yagyuu own laser
-Yagyuu curve IS NOT stated to be faster than tornado snake. So since it is not stated, it's pretty useless to keep going back and forth about this, as this one shot is purely opinion-based.
Yagyuu knows laser. Not Gyro laser. Gyro laser is obviously harder to hit back. Yanagi can probably return laser fine, too. It's kind of like how Kikumaru get used to Niou laser speed and fail with the real one.
Yeah, so because the two of them can do the straight or curve tech, so they're even on that. But Kaidoh stamina will actually be better for this than Yagyuu. The number of set match will also decide this. It's unknown if Kaidoh stamina is enough to kick in in 1 set match, but I think the advantage is definitely Kaidoh in a 3 set match if they're both going for 1st stringer position.
I don't think this is going anywhere, though.
Just the fact such a long time has passed since then, and that Yagyuu can now combine it with his Laser means it obviously must have improved.
That should be obvious to everyone.
Oishi's Moon Volley does the same thing.
Kai's Viking Horn does the same.
I can find plenty examples as to why your example means nothing.
Also, if Yanagi has data on it as you say, why do you think it will work on him for a whole set?
I don't think Gyro Laser is faster than Waterfall personally. Serve's should be faster.
This proves nothing.
While the Tornado Snake has never been called ''fast''. Ever.
So it's you who needs to prove why you will go against the manga and say Tornado Snake is fast like Laser has been said to be fast.
Neither are possible in real life so good luck in trying.
Kirihara and Yanagi could not handle it for 1 game. making it 4-1.
That one game is all we saw it in.
Despite having it, Kirihara managed to control the game and take it to 5-1.
So when they said Kaidoh is invincible, I think somebody somewhere was exaggerating.
You are judging a whole set off of one game.
The game after, Kaidoh was involved in the rally but Kirihara was still able to play how he wanted. Kaidoh isn't invincible.
Unless you want to run away without proving your point.
Tornado Snake has never been called ''fast'' by Konomi.
Its been called fast by you, and YOU are NOT Konomi.
You are giving Tornado Snake undue credits.
Saying any player invited to U-17 is a bit off too.
There is his teammate, knowing full well that Niou isn't playing seriously.
So how on earth can you judge Niou on that performance if it is proven Niou wasn't playing seriously?? I have PROOF Niou wasn't serious.
Sanada didn't even know about Illusion.
Maybe. The readers do not know. We only know Niou cannot win against Fuji without it. We don't know about getting points though.
That's common sense though. I guess we don't all have it. I guess I have at least a bit of it to notice this obvious thing.
It's not my opinion, its Konomi. Konomi says laser is fast, he doesn't say Tornado Snake is ''extremely fast''. You don't believe Konomi?
Kaidoh has more stamina. True. Kaidoh has Gyro, not Curving Laser though.
Your free to run away from this Ken.
@ the whole Yanagi thing
So you're assuming Yanagi can return it. Yanagi has 2 days after Kaidoh and Inui reveal those tech in their match with Hyotei. You and I both don't know what'll happen if the game go on. But because we don't know, predicting what will happen is all assumption. So I'm going off what we can confirm right now in the manga; Yanagi can't handle Kaidoh so far. So I'm not giving him a free pass. You're free to give it to him if you want. Can I also say Tezuka and Echizen without PoP can probably find a way around to beat Rai now that they seen it so many times and had so long to find the counter to it?
-Kaidoh surpass Yagyuu signature move, laser
-Yagyuu curve laser vs Kaidoh tornado snake is unknown which one is better overall. Even if curve laser has speed, tornado snake has a harder to hit path. Speed isn't everything in a ball. I'll say from what we saw, which is curve laser and tornado snake is better as an overall tech cannot be decided. But the reason I'm giving this to Kaidoh is because snake is his original signature technique. I don't giv credit to Yagyuu here because his tech doesn't said to surpass tornado snake, which is Kaidoh best curve at that time. So
-Yagyuu signature is already been surpass for sure (we know this from Gyro laser faster comment)
-Tornado Snake>Curve laser or Curve laser>Tornado snake is unconfirmed
So going off just what is absolutely confirm, I think Kaidoh tech seemed to be higher for right now.
Tornado Snake is 0.02 seconds faster than any other straight ball. Since the shot is so much faster than regular shots, I reckon it is much faster than Laser Beam *sarcasm*