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Translations: Bleach 600 by BadKarma
They don't have to animate the punch and they don't have to draw Light Nostrade with a bruise.
---------- Post added at 11:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:15 AM ----------
It can be animated. Saying material got cut because of the "change in medium" is really just an excuse. If Madhouse REALLY wanted to they could animate
whatever they wanted. Now whether it sells or even airs in the first place is another matter.The thing is too many people are confusing the actual animation process with the animation business. The reason why it is "impossible" to include everything is because everything does not fit with Madhouse's budget
plan. Now whether or not they can't afford it or they are just don't want to spend the money I don't know. It's not that Madhouse (or even Nippon)
hates the series. It's that it's first and foremost a business to them. Of course that doesn't mean they can't enjoy the business.
But the reason why stuff like Gon and Killua's auction craziness is greatly reduced---It's not marketable. Most people find it boring.
I don't blame them for finding it boring but I can't say it makes me happy either. It's a bit saddening when people only see that
part of Yorknew as a "antiques roadshow spinoff" and it's more disappointing that Madhouse didn't have the courage to try and MAKE it interesting.
See I like stuff like the virtual HxH website where Gon and Killua went inside of despite it being different from the manga because they
were taking an outdated concept of this amazing new feature called "the internet" and tried to make it more up to date, relative, and interesting.
Of course at the same time I think this can be done TOO much. Sometimes it's nice to keep it old school. But really it all depends.
But bottom line is that it all comes down to money. They could include EVERYTHING in the manga but they don't because they don't thing it is as profitable.
So the REAL point is what do fans expect, and how they react to those cuts. We all have different levels of realistic expectation (or the lack of), and Madhouse did cuts like this since the very first episode so it's nothing new. Some of us just...shrugged at stuff like the bald ugly mafia punching the Kura's boss. It's not. that. hard. to.understand. I on the other hand understand why some people get work up for details that're trivial to me (I'm experienced with 'fandoms'), but I don't go around tell them they're foolish to think that.
And stuff like "why bother to repeat the fortune-telling 3x times instead of shifting some of that to do this and that"...well that's the director and his team's choice to present this episode they wanted: they probably aimed to create an atmosphere and they succeeded. It worked for the people who only watch the show (ie: the reviewer from Lost in America). It also works in the sense that since animation is sequential, you can't just flip back to the previous pages to re-read the passage. Most TV audience will only tune in that one morning and won't re-watch this online. The repetition do setup the importance of this as this fortune-telling will come up again later.
Last edited by chei; October 15, 2012 at 06:34 PM.
Not sure if serious... or trolling...
A 100% adaptation is not always possible as I have discussed with you before Sticky there is numerous factors that go into play, not just what Madhouse want to do. You have to consider that there is multiple companies with a hand in this swaying the direction. You've got NTV, Madhouse themselves and of course merchandising companies. All of these people have an idea of what they would like this adaptation of HxH to be, it is a constant balancing act on Madhouse's part to appease them all.
Why was the Zepile ep which could have been 2 eps only 1? Most likely because NTV didn't believe it would rate well over 2 episodes as the content itself isn't as traditionally exciting as say Gon and Killua engaging with the Troupe. The same can be said for why they often try to pace an episode to end on a cliffhanger, because that guarantees some ratings for next week.
Then you throw in merchandisers to the mix, while their influence is nowhere near as much as NTV's over the series, they still hold some weight of how Madhouse presents things, as things need to be presented in a way that can be sold in mass quantities later in a variety of different shapes and forms whether its home video releases or simply figures or clothing.
So no a 100% adaptation is pretty much impossible, so much so that I don't believe I have ever seen one in my life. Any ways not sure if you were just trolling or not, but it was worth clarifying to everyone else why this is this way and that you all should consider that the series is bigger than just Madhouse.
Just wanted to add something I believe was missing from futurefrog's post. Don't forget that Madhouse themselves isn't just one person. HxH episodes get written, revised, directed, storyboarded, conferenced for hours, edited, then edited another 20 times by several groups before any of us get to see it. Not to mention the people doing all of this changes every episode. Opinions of people who don't mind changes, those who want to stick to the manga, and those who just want some dam money clash with every miniscule sweatdrop or coloring technique added or not added in each frame. To them something like taking out a 10 second scene would be a huge decision. Take this with what futurefrog said and it's like an internal argument within another global argument packaged with disagreements and debates on the side. Don't think for even a moment that Madhouse would make a mistake (not saying they don't) only for the sake of being profitable.
Afterall, if companies only ever went for things that showed profit, Super Smash Bros. wouldn't even exist.
Last edited by Riruru; October 15, 2012 at 07:46 PM.
Smash Bros. started out as a small budget game created by two guys who weren't even expecting for it to make past its prototype stages. They actually made the prototype before they had permission to from the company.
But that's off topic.
Last edited by Riruru; October 15, 2012 at 07:56 PM.
Sure they can adapt the anime to be exactly like the manga word for word, but then we'd need everyone working on it to agree to add in every detail for each episode, and we all know how people are with unanimous agreeing. Everyone has their own ideas on what works and what sells.
Great discussion here guys, but just wanna stop for a sec and say that everyone should vote in the Mangahelpers Community Awards.
Lets get some of us Hunter x Hunter fans in with a chance!
Since we've passed that part within this episode, I should mention this: At the end of chapter 95 Togashi announces the end of the 1999 anime series in March 2001. Corresponding the the current episode, the old anime got an episode and a half left before getting to the OVAs.
I leave for a while, and wow! Gotta catch up on the discussion.
How did the episode give "too much focus" on Neon's shopping? I didn't see it like that, personally.Quote:
I'm not disagreeing with what you guys said. I'm just confused why you guys are talking as if mrsticky didn't understand that a 100% adaptation is impossible, or that he was missing the point. I honestly think he was on point, and you guys just gave additional points that are also valid. I'm not sure though; am I misunderstanding what everyone said?
So correct me if I'm wrong. But the way I see it, mrsticky was saying that you can animate all the scenes in the manga 100%, but that doesn't mean that the adaptation will have 100% of those scenes because of other factors (such as money and expectations and whatnot). And that's also what basically everyone else said, except that they also added that the adaptation isn't just influenced by MH and Togashi's manga, but also by other networks and companies and the different groups inside MH.
So basically, animating all the scenes in the manga 100% is, in fact, possible. But nobody's ever going to do it for multiple different reasons/restrictions. And that seems to be what everyone's point was.
Last edited by Cinnabar; October 16, 2012 at 04:05 AM.
Moreover, he simplified everything into 'it's all for the profit". It's this reductionist approach that tried to demonized everything Madhouse did gave me the impression of a "they're just lazy greedy pigs' accusation. I pointed out that other than the marketable factor, there might also be an artistic and timing factor that goes into the changes. As much as I love Togashi and his geeking out on things, a lot of Togashi's signature talky passages and info dumps in HxH doesn't translate well between medium. YES book and movie ARE different mediums that doesn't necessarily translate well ALL the time.
In book form, readers can actively choose how much time they want to spend on one page/passages and even jumps around, while audience can only experienced passively from animations/movies being feed to them in a linear sequential time format. So 'timing' is a lot more different for both. That's why audience expects to see more actions and more dynamic stuffs happening on animation (vs. books, where you can have internal psychological studies in text or graphical panels).
I would be glad to read LONG and LONG exposition and info dump from Togashi on antique roadshow or other subjects he wanna geek out on, but I probably wouldn't have the same patience to sit through a broadcast show that dumps the exact same amount of info, no matter how interesting the graphics on the screens are. Moreover, talking heads in Japanese anime just aren't very interesting to watch - it's not like we have a very interesting looking real life actor that you can just sit and watch him speaking with with eye contacts all those subtlety on his face muscle.... anime talking heads are just moving mouth and blinking eyes. Animating pages and pages of game rules or cards info into a 5-10 minute motion graphic piece is not going to work. So in an artistic point of view, 100% manga adaptation (especially for Togashi) are impossible as well.
I mentioned the example of the fortune-telling and how they managed to make it a poetic element that thread through the episodes...that's not true to manga but an artistic choice that made something text-based possible and INTERESTING for an animation format. Again, 100% manga adaptation is impossible because the medium is essentially different and it's not all 'coz its not profitable'.
The same editorial processe applies to other changes other than vuts. Artistically the director thought to extended the action sequences for more dynamics on screen. For ex, there's an additional sequence where Phinx snapped off mafia guys' head aren't found in the manga, so where's the complaint for non-100% manga adaptation of that?
Last edited by chei; October 16, 2012 at 12:50 PM.
Let me explain what I was saying.
What I was saying is that PHYSICALLY speaking you can animate virtually ANYTHING.
If you can VISUALIZE it you can DRAW it.
If you can DRAW it you can ANIMATE it.
What I am disagreeing with is that stuff can't be included DUE to the change in MEDIUM.
That's not to say change in medium doesn't have any affect. The fact the characters are animated is a change.
But that's not we're are talking about and nobody is complaining about that. It's that actual story content is omitted.
Now even though you can PHYSICALLY animate anything you DRAW.
There is still the BUSINESS SIDE OF ANIMATION (as well as the business side of manga).
The reason stuff is omitted is because of the business side though it can also be artistic license.
In other words the omissions are there because they WANT them to be there. Or at least they didn't want them there enough to be there.
I'm not simplifying things. Animation is a business. A business is meant to make a profit. I never said Madhouse is greedy. But business is business.
So again what is bothering me is people acting as if it is the actual CHANGE IN MEDIUM that is the reason why story content is missing
instead of realizing that the reason why the omissions are there either due to BUSINESS reasons or DIRECTORIAL reasons.
It's not that I don't get how much hard work goes into animation but if the chef burns your food will you be satisfied?
Of course I don't think Madhouse has burned the food. But it's the best analogy I can come up with right now.
Another thing, while I do want an adaptation that gets everything I DON'T necessarily think that it needs to get every dot and tittle.
If they can get say the same thing but shorten it then GREAT. I can dig it. And I've said NUMEROUS times before that I like GOOD
fillers provided they don't mess with the show or story. People here seem to think that I'm some sort of manga accuracy nazi.
But really I'm not asking for anything Madhouse hasn't already done. I DID give Episode 51 a 9 out of 10 rating and I've said that
my complaints on omissions were NOT directed to THAT episode. Really it's Madhouse's Yorknew Arc in general I'm complaining about.
Now of course the previous arcs were not 100% accurate but anyone who has been paying attention should be able to see that
Yorknew is MORE liberal in it's adaptation than the previous arcs. I'm not asking for the impossible. I just won't settle for Madhouse's less
than best and this IS less than their best and I know this because I've seen better from them. We've ALL seen better from them.
But again at the same time that doesn't mean I'm appreciative. If I thought the episodes were bad I would NOT give them a 9 out of 10 rating.
But again in case you forgot while reading this my issue is people saying the changes are due to the change in medium rather than business or directorial reasons.
Why does this bother me? Because saying they didn't include this or that due to the change in medium is a lazy argument and to me sounds like
"Shut up and be thankful for what you got." And while I AM thankful (despite my complaints) I notice that people aren't so "thankful" for what
Nippon gave us. I was disappointed by Nippon. But when Madhouse falls off the mark I'm not going to ignore it just because it's Madhouse.
And I think it's fine if you want to like Madhouse's version just because or if you want to like Nippon's version just because.
But when you say Nippon version was bad because of X and when Madhouse does X you ignore it (you here doesn't refer to anyone specifically.)
Well I don't think that's fair. So I'm trying not to be unfair. Yes I have extremely high standards but I at least apply them to BOTH series.
Last edited by mrsticky005; October 16, 2012 at 02:13 PM.
Plus, it's hardly MH's fault. You could say these people are smart, they went to school, got the job, and should be talented enough to work around things like time constraints and fangirls (oh god). It's true, they could've done a better job. But, clearly everyone has different opinions on what a better job are. In your case, it would be seeing a version of HxH which isn't affected by this "business" as you say. Which is impossible. What we're seeing on screen/internet is never what MH or Nippon had originally planned out. For all we know, MH could've been planning that super awesome Leorio knife fighting scene.
So, in your sense, a score of 10/10 would be impossible anyway. Which I agree with.
Last edited by Riruru; October 16, 2012 at 02:38 PM.
So I can't have that cookie?