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Thread: Beelzebub Chapter 174 Discussion

  1. #16
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Black Hawk's Avatar
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    Re: Beelzebub Chapter 174 Discussions/175 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    It was also pretty interesting to hear from Behemoth about Furuichi's potential. I would really like to see him more in actual fighting and not only as a comic relief pervert character. He is great as he is, but I think he deserves some sort of actual permanent power-up as it really is a bit sad being a weakling and the one every person try to make joke in a world where power is the only thing that decides who is worth and who is not.
    Why you want this permanent Power-Up? Do you ever thought about what kind of Character Furichi is and why he say last Chapter?

    He have to try it out once. For me listen this Words like, the fight coming next wasn´t really a fight. I think Furichi let him beat down without fighting back. The hardest fight for a Fighter, is to fight someone who won´t fight you. Furichi Character and ideals in this Manga is pure Pacifist. In the whole Series Furichi never fight no one, he ever try to stop fights, he do anything to calm down situation befor its escaleted.
    Why Oga has always so much respect for Furichi. That Furichi goes his own Way to as a lone Wolf. With all the Brawlers, Fighters, Gangter and street Thugs on this school and in the Area, its harder to be a pacifist then a Fighter. So any permanent Power Up destroy the Character Furichi, that destroy Beelzebub.


    So my predict is, that Furichi was challenging Oga to stop him. He wanna put off the anger or fighting love from Oga. That could never be a real fight, its more like the Kung-fu style challenge to bring back comedy a bit.

    @Teeba
    Yes you right. In a Manga you follow the Person of the Series and in 170 Chapter there was no light for it. And the Furichi by himself don´t is much off a Fighter. He eat the Pain Day by Day to stay for his Ideal´s. That is my tought Oga respect him, they more a par then it looks.

  2. #17
    I hate shovel 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Doraku's Avatar
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    Re: Beelzebub Chapter 174 Discussions/175 Predictions

    I think there is nothing wrong with wanting Furuichi getting some kind of permanent power up. After reading this chapter, I'd feel awkward if Furuichi's role is only a man who get bullied by the Ishiyama gang. His character becomes much more serious during this arc, and since we as a reader now know more about his past, our perception about Furuichi would never be the same anymore. I feel that this is the point where the author cannot turning back Furuichi to the default mode.

    I believe that making Furuichi a battle and joke character simultaneously is neither bad nor impossible idea, what's important is how Tamura would balance those two roles in the story later on.

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  4. #18
    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner ShoheiChono's Avatar
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    Re: Beelzebub Chapter 174 Discussions/175 Predictions

    Wow. So I've been browsing MH since forever, yet haven't had the urge to write about manga for long enough that I can't even remember my old account.

    And this was the chapter that brought me back....

    Beelzebub has been my favorite manga for a while now, particularly because it balances its gag aspect so well within a universe of plot potential that (in my humble opinion) would be more than exceptional in a straight shounen format.

    What first drew me in was what I thought to be an incredibly original and hilarious premise (This of course being the Oga/Beel character dynamic). However, I'd safely say that by the Demon World Arc it was clear that the possible scope of the series far exceeded the original punchline along with the puns/gags/4th wall commentary that had come with it.

    It offers these gags, sure, and I do enjoy them. But there has also been a clear, albeit subtle undercurrent of seriousness escalating throughout each arc. This is what gets me excited! For people like me who are looking for the plot to gain some traction, the pace of growth to its depth can sometimes be excruciating. WHICH BRINGS ME TO THIS WEEK'S CHAPTER!

    The core of what makes Beelzebub funny (and unique) is not the short term punchlines. It is the satirical quality with which it can pursue a shounen plot from the original framework of its characters. The "evil" anti-hero Oga is one of the pillars to this framework. The more convincing the plot, the bigger the original joke gets because its spoofing the hero concept in the first place. And the origins and history of Oga and the people charging him with Beel have hardly been developed at all. Thus the "original joke" is only going to be expanded as we learn more, which adds another layer.

    To me, Furuichi is the second pillar. He is the perfect anti-sidekick, another spoof that gets funnier with added depth. He is maybe the only rational character in the story, yet this is made a weakness. He is so overly chivalrous that he becomes the pervert as well. None of this relies on him being physically weak. The comedy is in the personality, but Furuichi's personality is only funny if it remains relevant to the plot. And if his only relevance to the plot is that he gets to watch crazy battles from the bleachers, ad infinitum, then I've invested way too much into this manga. I'm sorry but that joke/role doesn't deserve to last.

    The only way he can grow is to answer the question planted in readers' minds since the beginning: "Why is Furuichi Oga's companion?" We've watch him for 174 chapters to find out the answer, and it obviously is going to be some sort of extraordinary power/quality. But he's still going to be the risk averse pervert to his core. Hopefully his power/quality meshes with his personality to further reinforce the joke of it all.

    Ex. - If he's a fighting prodigy, its tied explicitly to his perversion. Or his ability to tame/coexist with Oga makes him a perfect candidate to host some demon as funny and perverted and unreliable as he is.

    I respect those who hold the opinion that Furuichi must be Furuichi, now and forever. With that said, it seems like people think the comedic factor of the manga decreases significantly, if god forbid, he becomes more powerful. That somehow we're heading off some waterfall where 6 months from now we're reading some Bleach knock off + a baby because the comic relief can take action.

    I've waited a long time for this chapter, and in parts of this arc leading up I thought the whole thing would be a brief gag with a return to stagnancy. Welp, we've crossed the bridge. The power/quality/change to Furuichi should be different and complimentary to Oga's, in the way their personalities are. If it's super saiyan Furu-chin, I'll be shocked and upset. If it's Furuichi challenging Oga to dodgeball, getting whooped and his quality is that Oga can abuse him and all goes back to normal with no changes, I'm done with the manga. As others have stated, the Behemoth line promises at least some type of growth.

    Anyways, longest post of my life, but my reaction to this chapter represents my take on the whole manga at a defining and pivotal point. And my perspective on this one character shows how I feel about the cast as a whole. I've always dreamed of Beelzebub as this One Piece/Gintama-ish potential classic. With the Hilda/Himekawa/(hopefully Furu) depth we've started to get, hopefully it can move towards delivering on the promise of a demon world arc that makes clear whether the plot is headed somewhere. Or maybe everyone just goes to school the next day like nothing happened?

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  6. #19
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Impossibility's Avatar
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    Re: Beelzebub Chapter 174 Discussions/175 Predictions

    Curious to see what the effect of the demon power is going to be. Great flashback. This arc seemed as though it was going to be some quick diversion. But, it seems as though we're going to get quite a bit out of it. Interested to see what happens.

  7. #20
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    Re: Beelzebub Chapter 174 Discussions/175 Predictions

    Wow.

    I'm afraid that at the same time the mangaka struck gold with this Furuichi arc, he may have got himself into a very slippery slope. In a sense, it resembles a bit the Kunieda x Hilda discussions of the past.

    People who support Furuichi's weak, gag-comedy, Butt Monkey persona, and those who are overjoyed that there are possibilities for power for him are drawing lines in the sand. Unless Tamura-sensei does a miracle, someone will be disappointed with the outcome of this arc to the point of dropping the manga in disgust.

    I was particularly impressed by comment #18, but it was not the only one: many people have developed great expectations for Furuichi. I'm not sure whether they will be disappointed or not, but this is a very random manga with a very simple, lean plot. I wouldn't discard the possibility that the author will return everything to normal when this arc ends. Furuichi's demon power will be gone as soon as the tissues are gone, after all.

    Personally, I don't think this arc has added depth to Furuichi's characterisation, because I have always found him a deep character - for the Beelzebub and shoonen manga standards, in any case. It did give us more detail on his feelings and past, but he has always been more than the stereotypical sidekick.

    I cannot - no one can, this manga is too random - make predictions regarding the future of the plot. Beelzebub is not episodic like Gintama or modular like One Piece; it is linear, so there are many constraints as to where the story can go. So while I think it is safe to assume that there will be more and more demon involvement in human world affairs, this does not mean the series will become more serious or complex. It may stay true to comedy till the very end.

    So I would advise against overblown expectations regarding this manga: it is the story of a punk without a motivation raising a baby, after all. It is easier to just enjoy the ride of excellent humour, spot-on characterisation and nonsensical theme.

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  9. #21
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Black Hawk's Avatar
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    Re: Beelzebub Chapter 174 Discussions/175 Predictions

    This will be my last explain of my tought. Okay give we Furichi a power Up what will happend. Every Guy person that got power, get in the scope of Oga. Furichi only can stand on Ogas side cause he never are powerful or a opponent. When Furichi know get his Power Up in which way ever, the friendship with Oga ends. Or you really think Oga calls Himekawa or Kanzaki or Toujou his friends. That is my last explain to this was coming up. We really could talk about hours and Days. All the Furichi Fans get your Power Up and Destroy the friendship. That would be really good for this Manga.

    If you wanna really discuss about it, write a PN i dont want flood this threads with the same words.

  10. #22
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member g0dzax's Avatar
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    Re: Beelzebub Chapter 174 Discussions/175 Predictions

    Excellent chapter,it give Furuichi a little more character development,I'm sure that at the end of the chapter where he challenged Oga he did it with the hope of bringing Oga out of the "gang" business,I guess Furuichi intended to make Oga normal/happy without realizing that the only happiness for Oga is fighting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility
    Curious to see what the effect of the demon power is going to be.
    Well,Lamia took care of Furuichi,so I don't think there will be any side-effects to the tissues,maybe just a little demonic power left in his body.

    Regarding Furuichi's possible power-up,I can't make my mind regarding this matter.For me,there are 3 possible situations :

    1) Furuchi gets no power-up,remains good ol' Furuichi,kicked around by everyone and not respected;
    (tbh,I don't want this to happen)

    2) Furuichi gets no power-up,remains good ol' Furuichi,now RESPECTED :O by everyone in the school,respected by Hilda and Oga ( I still remember Oga's words about Furuchi's eyes; eyes that say he'll never give up),respected by everyone because he defeated Toujou,Kanzaki,Himekawa (and the rest of 'em) in front of the whole school,and now everyone looks up with respect to Furuchi,even though they don't know that now he is a weakling like before
    (like this situation)

    3) Furuichi DOES get a power-up(maybe a demon?),still remains good ol' Furuichi cracking half-assed jokes around,but still useless because he'll only use his demonic powers to help girls,avoids any fights and only fights if Hilda gets hurt lol .
    (I got mixed feelings about this situation)

    Meh,whatever happens the next chapters I'm sure we'll enjoy it,no matter what happens Furuichi will remain a perverted Furuichi,that's sure.And more than anything,he'll remain Oga's true friend.

  11. #23
    I hate shovel 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Doraku's Avatar
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    Re: Beelzebub Chapter 174 Discussions/175 Predictions

    I agree that predicting what happens next in Beelzebub universe most of the time is a futile effort. Luckily, I'm attached to this manga so much that I would not consider to drop it. Sometimes I'm wondering what's happening inside Tamura's head, to be honest. This is not the first time where we are hoping that a character would change, but in the end, the character is going back to the square one again. I'd say the discussion about wanting a character to develop vis-a-vis just enjoy the nonsensical theme is because some people have keen eyes to see obscurities in Beelzebub universe while the other do not. Some people would accept Beelzebub for what it has been since the beginning, while the other wants to see progresses, changes, and whatnot. Well, my point is, we as a reader can predict/wishing something happens next in the future plot, but don't take it seriously, because Beelzebub is just that random.

    @Black Hawk

    There is nothing wrong with voicing your opinion, as long as it is still in line with the rules. Feel free to suggest any theories and predictions.

  12. #24
    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner ShoheiChono's Avatar
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    Re: Beelzebub Chapter 174 Discussions/175 Predictions

    Edit: this was a response to Kendama's post.

    I agree with the bulk of what you are saying. I just wanted to respond to two things.

    First, you said that it may stay true to comedy until the very end. To clarify, my point was that the more complex the plot becomes, the funnier the manga actually is. Granted it might be an unrealistic expectation that the promises of plot development thus far will ever be fulfilled in the ways I think are possible...

    Second, the Gintama/One Piece comparison - I should have put a disclaimer on that as I was pretty tired when I posted. It was meant merely as a reflection of the tone that I recognize, expect and enjoy in beelzebub. Comparisons between works are naturally doomed to failure but it was my attempt to make my argument more accessible than just the rhetoric (seeing as I did not use much specific plot detail given the length and nature of what I was trying to get across).

    Finally as an aside, I don't really see the usefulness of definitively labeling manga such as One Piece and Beelzebub modular or linear. I believe their nature requires for a duality. There will always be tension between the expectation to deliver stories in the short term which can stand alone, at both the chapter and arc levels, and the need for linear plot tendencies to preserve the longevity/durability of the work. Heck, the fact that us fans define our manga in "arcs" is evidence of this to me.

    If anything, I see One Piece as extremely linear when I look at it from the 700 chapter bird's eye view. There is a clear end game, and every arc and development is geared towards that. Of course the individual arcs stand alone, but the title alone makes clear that we aren't going to be sailing for ever. And the cover stories and re-use of characters from previous arcs into future plots further reinforces the linear nature of the manga as a whole.

    However, even if my wildest dreams for Beelzebub are fulfilled, Tamura ain't no Oda....
    Last edited by ShoheiChono; September 27, 2012 at 11:40 PM.

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  14. #25
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    Re: Beelzebub Chapter 174 Discussions/175 Predictions

    @ShoheiChono:

    Thanks for your post. First, a little disclaimer: I haven't read One Piece or Gintama, their themes have never interested me.

    However, what I meant by the distinction between modular and linear is that, from what I get of the synopsis, One Piece is an adventure set in a different world. That allows for a much more liberal plot. Even if there is a clear endgame, as you say, the setting of One Piece enables the author to introduce another quest, another diversion, another island to explore at his leisure. I believe Eiichiro Oga himself said that he intended the main crew to reach a place called Fishman Island around the fifth year of serialisation, but he was having so much fun with the series that it took him 14 years to get there.

    That is not the case with Beelzebub, which is set in this world, this time, in and around a cast of a dozen characters attending a secondary school in the Kanto region of Japan. So there is a limit to what Oga and his friends can do without violating suspension of disbelief. The plot possibilities are much more limited. That Beelzebub is so random with so restrictive elements is quite an achievement, I must say.

    I tend to think of Beelzebub as limited to 300 chapters or so. More than that would make the story itself stilted. Also, one of its main strengths is that it is so uncomplicated - no subplots, no hidden agendas, no long-winded side- or backstories, and a protagonist whose main goal is to be left alone in piece. I love the fact that Oga is not interested in becoming the king of anything, getting revenge, proving his worth, saving the world or even fighting progressively stronger opponents, none of the shoonen nonsensical motivations can be found in him.

    (As for your assertion that "Tamura is no Oda", well, that's mostly personal taste. I cannot judge for myself, but there are at least a couple of people out there who compare Beelzebub favourably, in terms of characterisation and comedy, for example, to One Piece. It all depends on one's sense of humour, for example. In my gallery, Beelzebub is pretty much unrivalled, sharing the highest pedestal with Fullmetal Alchemist. That's why I refer to Ryuuhei Tamura and Hiromu Arakawa alone as "sensei".)

    I disagree with the assertion that introducing a purpose, or a sophisticated plot increases the hilarity or the entertainment value of this series. At least in my own case, all of this is inconsequential to my personal enjoyment. While I don't like the term "gag-comedy" - "gag" having suffered so much semantic degeneration that anything can be called a "gag" -, I think Beelzebub's humour is intrinsic to the way its characters interact and go about their business, so if it remains just the way it is, I will be satisfied. Of course, you may feel differently. Sense of humour is one of the most personal human attributes, after all.

    To be sincere, yesterday it occurred to me that even the current Furuichi arc may end up being self-contained and of very little consequence for the plot. Takachin may have just challenged Tatsumi to fight… in a videogame like their favourite Dragon Quest. So that's why I haven't entertained great expectations regarding the future of the story after this arc. And I am OK with that.

    Maybe this is more appropriate for the speculations thread, but the only "serious" plot development I can envisage is another war breaking out in the Demon World with the human world at stake. Saotome's role in a previous "great war" has been alluded to. But even that is difficult to predict with certainty given this is Beelzebub we are talking about. In the end, maybe even Athrun and his clique are going to be just another farcical incident. After all, to use TvTropes terminology, Beelzebub has failed time and again to "grow a beard". At this point in serialisation time, I am sure older series like Bleach, One Piece and Fairy Tail had already expanded their plot, their universe and their core cast of characters considerably.

    But let's wait and see. Given your interest in this series, I hope you are not in for a hard landing.

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  16. #26
    MH Senpai 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Teeba's Avatar
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    Re: Beelzebub Chapter 174 Discussions/175 Predictions

    The discussion that's been circling this thread has been amazing, and I think everyone has given their stance on whether or not Furuichi should get a power-up or not.

    I'm in the same boat as kendama, I've always seen Furuichi as a well-developed character, far more than your regular sidekick. From the very beginning, Furuichi and his friendship with Oga has really captivated me, and it is a large part of why I read Beelzebub.

    So I understand what Black Hawk is saying: if Furuichi's role is to be Oga's companion, best friend, straight man, etc, then he can't start stealing the screen by having a power-up. Which is fair. I watched a TV show once where in the season finale, the sidekick saves the day because the hero falls unconscious. I understand that there is a reason the sidekick does not stray far from their original role, otherwise they would be the hero too.

    But the concept of the bromantic team-up is so vast and so well-known, I can't imagine Tamura sweeping it under the rug at the expense of a joke. You see it everywhere in anime/manga: Toriko and Komatsu, Neuro and Yako(male/female example), Vash and Wolfwood, Tiger and Bunny, Panty and Stocking, Edward and Al, Ban and Ginji, Riku and Mitsuhashi, Kurono and Kato...it can be done in so many ways. So for absolutely nothing to change after this arc wouldn't really make sense to me.

    However, I don't think we're going to see something drastic happen to Furuichi's character right away. Most probably change will happen slowly. Whether Furuichi gains physical power, or authoritative power isn't something that's going to happen in two chapter's time.

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  18. #27
    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner ShoheiChono's Avatar
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    Re: Beelzebub Chapter 174 Discussions/175 Predictions

    @kendama: Really can't argue with anything you've said in response, so kudos to that! I can however offer evidence of why my expectations differ from yours. I suppose I am more hopeful that the world of Beelzebub is going to expand, and I agree that I'm probably setting myself up for a hard fall. I don't have too much evidence, but let's see what I can muster up. We've seen Oga and Aoi do their weird demon island vaca, as well as a glimpse into the demon world and more recently the trip to himekawa's old stomping grounds.

    As far as potential for plot complexity, I see some potential there as well. With Behemoth, Aoi's gramps, Saotome and some backstory he has with Tojou, Oga's sister, more of Aoi for that sake.... and who know's maybe some of the other high schoolers get the Himekawa treatment although I think too much of that is going to dilute the plot.

    Edit: forgot the new and super interesting plot wrinkle with Beel's mother/Hilda/Beel's dad (maybe the reason he is how he is has something to do with this revered mother?). This particular vein of development is important because Hilda is one of the few characters you can sort of take seriously. I.e unlike the Himekawa stuff where it all is because he doesn't want to marry someone, I think Hilda will have a compelling reason to love Beel's mom. And she's dead, so what happened there etc. etc. etc.

    As far as possible longevity, I expect a longer series for a reason greater than the plots lines above. The reason is the title character. I just don't see how this thing ends properly without Oga fulfilling his duty as ward to Beel, and this isn't going to happen so soon in my opinion. Hell, we could even see him doing some growing up along with Aoi's little brother, although as much as I want plot development I would hate that more than anything. Those two being babies, and communicating purely through the artwork, is one of the coolest parts of the series so even my fantasies for serious plot development end long before Goku has grand kids doing the fusion dance (for lack of a better way to put it).

    As far as Tamura is no Oda, I was not saying that one is better than the other necessarily. Just that Oda is a master (and you'll have to take my word for it) because of the broad landscapes he creates. Each one is unique and pretty self contained and the art work is what allows him to do that. The overall gist of his arcs tends to make a bigger statement than Tamura perhaps, whereas a lot of the filler dialogue and what not in the 80 odd chapters it takes us to get that statement leaves much to be desired (IMHO). Tamura's style is clearly different, and the intra-chapter dialogue is far more witty (again, just my opinion). He's different than Oda and no worse off for it!

    I like your quote about failing to "grow a beard." Perhaps this flash back is the puberty phase? But like I said at the end of my first post, we might just wake up back in class as though nothing happened. I'm prepared for that, although if that's the case then I'd at least like for Furuichi to gain respect at school or some sort of ability. Perhaps he only gains respect for now plus we get insight into his past (which in turn gives us insight into Oga) and later on his ability to command some of Ishiyama's baddies combines with a dormant quality Behemoth was talking about to impact some arc.

    Hell, maybe Behemoth was shocked at the perverted thoughts running through Furuichi's head even during such a pivotal battle and figured he must have been mistaken that someone could be so crass. I kinda of expect Furuichi to lose this fight to Oga if it is a straight up fight but prove something else (determination, some sort of skill), or more preferably for Furuichi to challenge Oga in a "fight" that is less conventional. Be it video games or what have you (I like the dragon quest guess you made a lot actually), it would be a better tie in to some sort of strategist style power up/ natural ability. The way they ran through other events in their childhood before leading into the ... of "that one time" makes me think this to be the case, and I can't wait to see what happens next.
    Last edited by ShoheiChono; September 28, 2012 at 02:47 PM.

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  20. #28
    MH Senpai 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Teeba's Avatar
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    Re: Beelzebub Chapter 174 Discussions/175 Predictions

    I don't know how many realized this, but Furuichi's t-shirt is the same one he's wearing in chapter 173! Which means that, however kid!Furuichi and kid!Oga fought, they definitely used pokopen, whatever that is.

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