Weekly Shonen Jump [2012-2013] - Discussion and TOC Talk - Part 4

[Kaiten]

Sorry, but once again you missed the point by far. I know it was kinda hard to distinguish without EXACTLY pointing the obvious out, but the whole talk was about adventure mangas that tend to take place in a high school, not about mangas in general.

Where did you, or anyone, indicate you were only discussing action manga? "New manga", "high school", "monsters", "moe girls", and "tentacels" (sic) are not the exclusive domain of action manga. How was I to know discussion had not become more general, just because previous comments were about World Trigger. Context is needed when discussing something as specific as a single genre. Without context, expect misunderstandings. Just because the conversation returns to a subject, does not mean it was restricted to that subject.

Nevertheless my point remains the same. Setting (and genre) has nothing to do with quality. A novel setting (or characters) is not enough to improve a poor story. A more traditional setting can't hurt a good story. There are many ways to creatively exploit traditional settings, genres, and characterizations. All that really matters is the skill with which a writer tells the story. As xi0 said, there is nothing wrong with preferring something over another. That's a matter of personal taste. While superficial, if anyone wants to judge a story based only on setting, character types, and genre is none of my business. It is wrong though to create an objective critique based only on these qualities. Based on those standards The Godfather is just another gangster movie, and The Seven Samurai but another samurai film. If judged solely on the basis of setting, genre, and character types both movies are cliche ridden and unoriginal. In reality they are two of the greatest movies ever made, changing the standards of acting, directing, and cinematography forever. Seven Samurai is not just another samurai movie, it is one of the first movies ever to use a wide angle lense. Kurasawa Akira forever changed the way movies are filmed. Nearly all of his movies are samurai films set during the Warring States era. If setting and genre meant anything, he made terrible, unoriginal movies. I'm sorry if I misunderstood the discussion. Even if I did, my point still stands. Setting shouldn't matter, neither should genre or character. An interesting, original world and fulfilling story can take place anywhere.

[xi0]

I do sort of agree that maybe a story starting off in a real-world setting seems to be a convention among certain popular series. But I can't really say whether this is done consciously by an author or the type of advice an editorial department would give to someone formulating a story. Who the hell knows. I mean, I guess it's more accessible to readers, but I don't think anyone reading manga can't handle a post-modern or otherworldly setting from the beginning. It isn't historical fiction...(though some series are that ). If a story is interesting, it's interesting. I don't know if it matters whether the environment in which is set is left in some mystery or if the reader is sledgehammered with Tolkien-esque particularity. I tend to prefer the former rather than the latter, but that's just me.

[Asgaroth]

Not every story set in a high school is bad, nisekoi is just one of many examples. the problem is not exactly the setting itself, but rather the reason why it is used, because it seem to be simple, nearly effortless. just grabbing already done ideas and without adding their own touch, which lets a lot of the story feel generic. that gos of course for many genre and setting, the high school one is just the one which is overused for wrong reasons.

the example kaiten said are "generic", but in a different meaning. they set principles that following works "ripped off" so many times that they became parts of the genre, but were at their time original and creative.

[Kaiten]

I do sort of agree that maybe a story starting off in a real-world setting seems to be a convention among certain popular series. But I can't really say whether this is done consciously by an author or the type of advice an editorial department would give to someone formulating a story. Who the hell knows. I mean, I guess it's more accessible to readers, but I don't think anyone reading manga can't handle a post-modern or otherworldly setting from the beginning. It isn't historical fiction...(though some series are that ). If a story is interesting, it's interesting. I don't know if it matters whether the environment in which is set is left in some mystery or if the reader is sledgehammered with Tolkien-esque particularity. I tend to prefer the former rather than the latter, but that's just me.

It's not as if fantasy worlds are something new or original. They are every bit as much a cliche as action manga set in the real world. Bulge wasn't any better for it's fantasy world, the same can be said for Metallica Metallica Metalluca. From what I recall, over the last four or five years there has been no special bias towards action manga taking place in modern Japan. There has been a pretty good mix between series taking place in fantasy worlds, historical settings, and the real world. If one were inclined too, I guess historic settings could be called "real world" settings. I would be loathe to call the setting of Ikkyuu, Akaboshi, or Sengoku Armor's "the real world", not in the same sense as Psyren or even Mago (set in modern Japan). Looking at the series list from the last few years, it seems like there was a fairly even mix of settings. The only trope that seemed neglected were Fist of the North Star style post-apocalyptic worlds. Psyren is the only recent series I can think of to explore such a setting. I can't see any particular bias towards "real world" settings, at least not in the action manga.

---------- Post added at 04:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:08 PM ----------

Not every story set in a high school is bad, nisekoi is just one of many examples. the problem is not exactly the setting itself, but rather the reason why it is used, because it seem to be simple, nearly effortless. just grabbing already done ideas and without adding their own touch, which lets a lot of the story feel generic. that gos of course for many genre and setting, the high school one is just the one which is overused for wrong reasons.

That is not true. Good authors choose their setting based on what is best for the story they have to tell, and how they want to say it. Writers do not get points for degree of difficulty. Writing a story set in the real world is no easier than writing one based in a fantasy world. Nor are fantasy worlds any more creative. Setting is just location. Nothing more. Fantasy worlds are as old as books, there is nothing new or original about them. If your preference is for manga in fantasy worlds (Naruto, One Piece, Toriko, etc.), that is your business. But don't tell me it is simple and effortless to write a story in the real world. Setting is not enough to judge a story on. It's not even enough to start. It says nothing about quality or creativity.

the example kaiten said are "generic", but in a different meaning. they set principles that following works "ripped off" so many times that they became parts of the genre, but were at their time original and creative.

Again, not true. Not even close. Gangster movies go back to the beginning of America cinema, back to the silent film era. The Godfather was released in the early 1970's. Gangster films were an old trope by then. Samurai movies go back to the beginning of Japanese cinema. Jidaigeki (period pieces) also go back to the first decade of the 20th Century. By your standards, the Godfather and Seven Samurari are derivative movies, in cliche genres, used only because the filmmakers wanted something simple and effortless. They are the rip-offs, not the innovators.

[k-dom]

I thing the constant is that a modern day adventure manga will always been set up in a school since the main characters tends to always be high schoolers. That's only the setup though a lot of them don't give the school much importance after a while.
That makes me think that some mangaka would like to escape this imposed figure right from the start :-)

[xi0]

In such settings it could be a junior high or high school setting simply because that is the intended audience for the readers. That it makes more sense for the story for the character and therefore the audience, to be introduced to the new world in a immersive way instead of just being in that setting from the beginning.

For some reason I doubt they give it any more thought, if that, than we're giving it now...

[Kaiten]

In such settings it could be a junior high or high school setting simply because that is the intended audience for the readers. That it makes more sense for the story for the character and therefore the audience, to be introduced to the new world in a immersive way instead of just being in that setting from the beginning.

For some reason I doubt they give it any more thought, if that, than we're giving it now...

Yeah, that's pretty straightforward. You want the audience to identify with the characters. It might be hard for 14 year old readers to identify with a 34 year old hero. Jump manga occasionally have older main characters, Gintoki is 25 years old. Kochikame and some older manga too. I don't think this is something they give much thought to either, and it's not like it's something unique to shounen manga. Books, movies, and TV shows directly marketed to teens usually feature teen characters. Harry Potter was a child wizard for a reason. How many kids would have wanted to read about a 29 year old apprentice wizard

---------- Post added at 05:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:57 PM ----------

The same thing I said about setting also applies to characters. A good writer tailors their characters to the story, so that they can best convey the authors message. Jump manga usually are coming of age stories (friendship, ambition, achievement). Insert adults and most Jump manga would just be kind of sad and pathetic. Think about how much it would change the meaning of their dialog, if Naruto and Gaara were 22, instead of 12, when they fought at the end of the Chuunin Exam.

[Teeba]

Omg Kaiten you ninja'd me. I was going to say more or less the same thing. A High school setting is the perfect ground for people to grow up and start understanding the world around them. But at the same time, its a setting that is young enough that the characters still have so much to look forward to.

And yeah, in my opinion a good story isn't about what's in the pot but how its been simmered. Food is a good analogy I guess: how many times have you eaten something like a hamburger, or ice cream? But its the way its been made that makes you enjoy one over many others, and that is often due to the chef or people who made it. When a writer writes, they are trying to tell you a story about themselves, even if the story has nothing to do with them, even if the ingredients are the same as everyone elses.

Much as how people have tried to write down all the famous examples of Western literature "copying off" each other, maybe someone should do the same with Jump manga? It would be cool to see. But from what I see, Japan has a much more chillax view on these type of things, considering the existence of doujinshi conventions. I was surprised that Togashi made his own Yu Yu Hakusho doujinshi after having enough of Shonen Jump.

[Kaiten]

Omg Kaiten you ninja'd me. I was going to say more or less the same thing. A High school setting is the perfect ground for people to grow up and start understanding the world around them. But at the same time, its a setting that is young enough that the characters still have so much to look forward to.

Depending on what the author wants to convey, a fantasy setting might reduce the impact. Telling the same story in a high school setting might make the same story more believable, or easier to relate to. Storytelling is about communication. There's no right and wrong, only what best communicates the authors thoughts to the audience. The only wrong thing is to give the story a setting at odds with the content. Often it's just a matter of personal preference.

And yeah, in my opinion a good story isn't about what's in the pot but how its been simmered. Food is a good analogy I guess: how many times have you eaten something like a hamburger, or ice cream? But its the way its been made that makes you enjoy one over many others, and that is often due to the chef or people who made it. When a writer writes, they are trying to tell you a story about themselves, even if the story has nothing to do with them, even if the ingredients are the same as everyone elses.

Exactly. The skill of the chef is what matters, and what they can do with the ingredients.

Much as how people have tried to write down all the famous examples of Western literature "copying off" each other, maybe someone should do the same with Jump manga? It would be cool to see. But from what I see, Japan has a much more chillax view on these type of things, considering the existence of doujinshi conventions. I was surprised that Togashi made his own Yu Yu Hakusho doujinshi after having enough of Shonen Jump.

Great link! The truth is "originality" only matters for so much. Very little in this world is without precedent. What matters is the message, if the author has something original to say.

[DraMas26]

Speaking of high school in manga, is there any significance of the age 17 in Japan because from the Shonen orientated series I have seen 17 tends to be the most popular age for characters?

[xi0]

Speaking of high school in manga, is there any significance of the age 17 in Japan because from the Shonen orientated series I have seen 17 tends to be the most popular age for characters?

I'm not sure how the law defines it, but 17 might be seen by younger people as an age that is mature and someone to look up to, but not quite adult, so maybe still relatable? Just a theory.

[Schabrak]

Junior High starts with 12-13, High School with 15-16, since mangaka may want to keep the setting for a while they will give their characters those ages, if restricted by school somehow.

And are you sure it's 17? Would be the year before coming of age here in germany, but you turn adult with 20 in japan.

[xi0]

Much as how people have tried to write down all the famous examples of Western literature "copying off" each other, maybe someone should do the same with Jump manga? It would be cool to see. But from what I see, Japan has a much more chillax view on these type of things, considering the existence of doujinshi conventions. I was surprised that Togashi made his own Yu Yu Hakusho doujinshi after having enough of Shonen Jump.

That's a good point. Parodies exist everywhere though. But I think when you consider the sheer size of the manga industry and how many thousands of serializations there have been, it's almost impossible for something to not be derivative. Mangaka grow up as fans...of other mangaka. So yeah.

[Kaiten]

I don't know if it means anything, seventeen is just a typical high school age. Most shounen seem to have characters aged 15 - 18, it might just be a coincidence that he reads a lot of manga where the hero is seventeen. Dunno. Can't say the same about the [shounen] series I read. They range from twelve (Naruto and Hunter x Hunter) to high school third years (Again!!).

[DraMas26]

I'm not just referring to the main character but rather the main characters. Like in Hunter X Hunter Kurapika is 17. In One Piece Luffy is 17 and Chopper is 17 after the time skip. Ichigo is 17 after the time skip. Lucy in Fairy Tail is 17. Chrono in Chrono Trigger (not a manga but a video game) is 17. Almost all the high school students in Detective Conan are 17.

It just seems a really common age of Shonen main characters. I've seen so many 17 year old characters that whenever I start a new series I almost always expect to see a main character who's 17 and so far, from the series I've read, I've been right most of the time. Several of the main characters in Shonen are 17 or turn 17 at some point in the series so I was wondering if there was something special about the age 17 in Japan. But like you said it may just be a coincidence.