Originally Posted by
lido209boi
Do I really need to answer the build up of Kakashi and Tobi? The very first chapter that Tobi appeared in (with his mask and one eye Sharingan) what kind of theories bombarded the fan base? The very first chapter that Tobi uses his MS that parallels Kakashi's MS, what bombarded the fan base? Yes, Tobi have not once shown an emotional response to Kakashi and the manga have just started to touch on it. But even in the previous chapter when Tobi was unmasked he simply didn't care what they called him anymore. He follows that by saying he doesn't blame Kakashi nor the worthless reality in which they are in and have no interest in a world that will vanish. This means that it would make sense that he never had an emotional response to Kakashi ... he has already given up on the world itself so why should he throw a fit at Kakashi upon first sight? Throwing a tantrum at someone and blaming them for things is a clear sign that you still do give a crap. I predict in the following chapter we are going to see how Obito gave up on life.
Except there was no build up, which is the entire point. Using an argument based on nothing but appearances is ridiculous. By that logic, Pain should have turnt out to be Minato, as plenty of people were arguing back then. There's a reason the majority of the fan-base didn't follow it, because there was nothing to it but appearance. It's not merely emotional response. Tobi showed plenty of interest in Sasuke. He showed plenty of interest in Naruto and destroying Konoha. Yet not any interest in Kakashi? Tobi was not like Nagato, emotionally removed from the world. And if, as being hinted at, Tobi specifically target Minato due to what happen, then the same should have been true for Kakashi.
Originally Posted by
lido209boi
Nothing to indicate? This page clearly shows why Kakashi changed his mind. Kakashi was against everything that Obito was saying until Obito reaffirms to Kakashi that the white fang in his eyes was "a true hero". Kakashi didn't react to Obito when he reminded Kakashi that Rin was his friend, nor the sentiment of Rin's gift to him ... he only reacted to Obito when his father was mention.
http://www.mangainn.com/manga/chapte...e-hero/page_18
If that wasn't enough Minato clearly states that the reason why Kakashi is such a stickler for the rule is strictly because of the incident of his father's death (inferring that he stuck to the rule to avoid his father's fate, either the shame of being ousted by your fellow peers or the guilt suicide).
http://www.mangainn.com/manga/chapte...amwork/page_19
And? Where's the evidence to indicate that Kakashi's reasons for doing what he did was based on popularity and not exactly what he stated, competing the mission? Choosing to infer what you want and ignore what the character themselves say is not evidence. Kakashi spelt out his reasons for doing what he did, and I see no reason to believe that it was some big cover for him just wanting to be popular.
Originally Posted by
lido209boi
Sure, as I said you can argue that its evil, and that is exactly what the Kages argue. But what does Madara argue? In his eyes the act that he commits is not evil. The way Madara views things, he is putting an end to the cycle of wars and killing that he has seen. He is going to give them heaven and paradise where even those who are dead are coming back to life. A recurring theme is the cycle of hatred and how to conquer it. Pain tried to do this through the theory of nuclear deterrent ... Jiraiya died never able to answer it ... Naruto either doesn't have his answer yet or have yet to shown us .... and this is Madara's answer to it, which is to take away freewill because freewill is the cause of the cycle.
Madara ignoring his own evil actions doesn't change that they are evil, as Madara has done much more then simply work on his world-wide genjutsu. Attacking Konoha with the Kyuubi, turning Kiri into the Bloody Mist, and manipulating Tobi to attack Konoha once again with the Kyuubi were all separate things. And taking away freewill is never a good thing. Completely different. Pain never denied the moral issues with his plan.
Originally Posted by
lido209boi
I understand how you can interpret it that way, but I stand by my interpretation of chapter 386. I think the panel of blood stain which leads to the sinister view of the two brothers with MS is a clear indication of the brothers killing their closest person; not just by training in a warring era.
Sasuke did not obtain the MS when he learned the truth. The first use of amaterasu by Sasuke is when Tobi tried to reveal himself to Sasuke via a jutsu implanted by Itachi (prior to telling him about the cover up of Itachi). In this sense, it can also be argued that Sasuke does not truly have his own MS since Madara specifically states that Itachi transferred all of his eye techniques to Sasuke before he died. Every MS have its own special ability that when combines together makes Susano. We don't see Tobi or Kakashi spamming amaterasu or tsukyumi, nor do we see Itachi/Sasuke/Madara ripping open a portal to another dimension, likewise no one with their own MS is able to use Shishui's ultimate brain washing technique without his eyes. This could just be a stupid plot hole (since Sasuke have EMS already), but my bet is on Kishi pissing fans off by either sacrificing Naruto or Sakura in the end to give Sasuke a new ability that will conveniently be super effective against Madara.
We need to also take into account that gaining the MS by killing your closest person is a legend that is originally perpetuated by Itachi (and presumably reinforced by the clan tablets). This legend that originates from Itachi is followed by the part that those with MS will eventually go blind unless they implant their brother's eyes. Why would part one of the legend be untrue, yet part two and three are true?
What would the motivation for Itachi be for lying to Sasuke? Because we all know Itachi was a liar, but all his lies have been for the sake of his little brother and his best interest. Itachi drove Sasuke down the path of darkness (hatred and vengeance) not only to be killed by Sasuke but also because he believed that was the fastest way for Sasuke to become powerful. He told Sasuke how to obtain MS, he wanted Sasuke to obtain MS, why lead him on a wild goose chase?
Lastly, Itachi says in chapter 225 that it was "thanks to Shisui" that he obtained the MS. The other Uchiha's confronted him because they believed that Shisui's suicide note was written by him and not Shisui (this scene would be absolute junk and pointless unless it serves to foreshadow something). This certainly is a strong indication that he killed Shisui, most likely willingly on Shisui's part since he knew Danzou would of done it eventually. If he didn't kill Shisui, then he certainly witness his death because in chapter 550 Itachi says that after telling him to hide his last eye "he died quietly".
The brothers were each other closest person, and before the actual discovering of MS, there wouldn't even have been reason to even think of killing an ally.
Sasuke did obtain MS when he learnt the truth. Itachi's trap was just that, a single use trap Itachi gave him. It was cleared up a long time ago that the Amaterasu trap had nothing to do with Sasuke gaining his MS techniques. It was also made clear that not every MS could awaken Susanoo. The thing you seem to be missing is, that we've seen that the killing closest person part is a lie. In fact, we have yet to see any examples of it.
Motivation? Simple. Sasuke killing Naruto would have meant that the Kyuubi would have been taken out of play for X-amount of years, giving Itachi that much time to stop Tobi. Shisui made it clear he was killing himself, as he was gonna hide his body. So as I said before, they didn't kill anyone and gained MS more due to the emotional issue then actual act.
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And even after the flashbacks end and Kakashi will tell Obito that it was sth totally different etc. Obito will still say that Rin is dead and it doesn't matter anymore etc. <x2>, and the fight will go on xD
