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Thread: Bleach 510 Discussion

  1. #436
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Zehahaha's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 510 Discussion / 511 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by NoOneInParticular View Post
    I agree, but having said that, he was happy to take orders from Yamamoto, Shinji, and whoever else over the 100+ years he spent posing as a loyal member of the Gotei 13. Maybe he just doesn't feel capable of one-upping Bach like he did Soul Society, though that certainly doesn't sound like him. Maybe Ichigo was right about the reason Aizen lost his powers in the end, he's just given up (again, that doesn't sound like Aizen. Even if he has a subconscious desire to lose the burden of being so strong, I can imagine he tells himself otherwise). Maybe he's got his own plans brewing and simply isn't interested in what Bach had to offer.

    I'd have loved to see the conversation between the two.
    Nah... Aizen being arrogant doesn't equal him being a moron, he's a tactician, who wouldn't hesitate to use any mean to reach his goals, Aizen is prideful yes and even arrogant, but in no way that made him blind to see his weaknesses nor scheming (until he began to transform), he's a very realistic guy in fact, his arrogance only blinded him when he began to transform, that's where he simply became " drunk " by his own power

  2. #437
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Firebird0ne's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 510 Discussion / 511 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Sky Render View Post
    That's pretty much like saying "if Kurotsuchi can counter any ability, why can't he counter the medallions?"

    Because he can't.

    Royd could mimic Yhwach because Yhwach probably let him. Because he was his boss and as such he let himself be copied. It's not like he can show Royd a pic of Yama and be done with it. He probably needs to be near him, touch him or spend some time with the real deal.

    And it's been stated several times through the manga that base reiryoku and reiatsu > special abilities. Royd and Loyd simply can't bring themselves to Yama and Yhwach's levels. Even Kenpachi managed to overcome his exact copy via sheer reiatsu, making the ability look like a complete joke.

    Royd was an Sternenritter, therefore captain level "or higher", therefore capable of at least not dying immediately against Yamamoto's flames. Look at it this way: mustache Sternenritter stands up against Kyoraku, who stood up against Yamamoto. We can conclude then that the average Sternenritter can at least endure a little against the CC even if he is to be obviously defeated in the end. Nodt and the others were instapwned because they probably switched into Blut Arterie and forgot about defending.

    Royd was a decoy whose purpose ws only to stall Yamamoto and bring out his true power. He was supposed to die. That's it. It's not very epic nor satisfying, but it's far from being a plot hole.
    I get what you're saying here, but Kubo went into detail about how the power of Loyd Royd was something the twins were born with, not gifted with later like we've been made to understand the SR's are. And he specifically said that the one twin could exactly copy power and abilities. Yet, you seem to argue he can't. It can't be both ways. Given the power that they had, theoretically it's possible that they could have been a threat to JB. But the fact that just before JB killed him, the one twin was so happy to have pleased the boss suggests that it was that JB gained dominance over the two, used them and disposed of them before they realized what a wicked SOB they had come to admire and maybe developed any ambitions against him. Also, if there was a difference in power level, I wonder why Yamamoto didn't sense that. In a lot of canon battles, the characters seem to have a sense of the level of person they are fighting. Seems odd to me that Yamamoto would have missed that...
    Last edited by Firebird0ne; October 09, 2012 at 01:17 PM.

  3. #438
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Bleach 510 Discussion / 511 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by 0Xellos View Post
    What I rather see as a plot hole (or troll) is the power measures between Royd and Loyd: Royd beat Kenpachi without significant effort (at least I didn't see it on him), while it was indirectly stated that he can't mimic power. Loyd, on the other hand, was supposed to be the one able to mimic power and therefore should be stronger than Royd, after mimicking Kenpachi, but got beaten by him rather easily.
    This needs to be explained better (if what Kirge said about Bach being able to adjust the strength of their Blut somehow, for example). But if one SR was strong enough to beat Kenpachi, why couldn't it be so with the rest?
    I have an answer for this… Kishi just wrights as his heart desires, as if he was telling a story to a 3 y.o. child… But he isn’t, and his wrightings are read and “analized” weakly by thousands of people pretty capable of criticizing him… The worst part about this entire part is the incredible and absurd discrepancy in power between fights.. we don’t have rough battles anymore, we have one guy who one-shots some other guy, then that guy will be one-shoted by another guy stronger than him, and so on… That’s how we got As Nodt defeating Byakuya without getting a scratch, then him and 2 others getting his ass burned by Yamamoto, the we have kempachi defeating easily a guy that could copy his powers, but then getting pawned by his brother (if they were brothers, why copy someone’s power if you are already stronger than him?), and then yamamoto dispatching of 3 SR at the same time, as I said earlier, and then putting an effort to defeat another underling posing as the Big Boss, and then getting bitch slapped by the real boss in one stroke… That’s Bleach for you these days…

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  5. #439
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Firebird0ne's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 510 Discussion / 511 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by da_ni View Post
    I have an answer for this… Kishi just wrights as his heart desires, as if he was telling a story to a 3 y.o. child… But he isn’t, and his wrightings are read and “analized” weakly by thousands of people pretty capable of criticizing him… The worst part about this entire part is the incredible and absurd discrepancy in power between fights.. we don’t have rough battles anymore, we have one guy who one-shots some other guy, then that guy will be one-shoted by another guy stronger than him, and so on… That’s how we got As Nodt defeating Byakuya without getting a scratch, then him and 2 others getting his ass burned by Yamamoto, the we have kempachi defeating easily a guy that could copy his powers, but then getting pawned by his brother (if they were brothers, why copy someone’s power if you are already stronger than him?), and then yamamoto dispatching of 3 SR at the same time, as I said earlier, and then putting an effort to defeat another underling posing as the Big Boss, and then getting bitch slapped by the real boss in one stroke… That’s Bleach for you these days…
    I am wholeheartedly with you on that one!

  6. #440
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Sky Render's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 510 Discussion / 511 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by da_ni View Post
    I have an answer for this… Kishi just wrights as his heart desires, as if he was telling a story to a 3 y.o. child… But he isn’t, and his wrightings are read and “analized” weakly by thousands of people pretty capable of criticizing him… The worst part about this entire part is the incredible and absurd discrepancy in power between fights.. we don’t have rough battles anymore, we have one guy who one-shots some other guy, then that guy will be one-shoted by another guy stronger than him, and so on… That’s how we got As Nodt defeating Byakuya without getting a scratch, then him and 2 others getting his ass burned by Yamamoto, the we have kempachi defeating easily a guy that could copy his powers, but then getting pawned by his brother (if they were brothers, why copy someone’s power if you are already stronger than him?), and then yamamoto dispatching of 3 SR at the same time, as I said earlier, and then putting an effort to defeat another underling posing as the Big Boss, and then getting bitch slapped by the real boss in one stroke… That’s Bleach for you these days…
    Nodt defeated Byakuya thanks to his medallion, which he couldn't use against Yama. Also, Yama is WORLDS APART from Byakuya. You might as well argue that Ayon could defeat Yama because he defeated Hisagi.

    And I believe that the one who defeated Kenpachi was Yhwach himself, who AFTER THAT switched places with Royd (who then grabbed Kenpachi by the neck). Contrived, yes, but hardly a plot hole again.

    I believe the main problem with Bleach fandom is that they call "plot hole" and "bad writing" things that they just don't like. Again: I too feel that the whole "twin decoy" play was a little off-putting and anticlimatic, but it makes sense in the setting. Please stop trying to find logical faults and just say that you feel disappointed and believe Kubo should have came up with something better.

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  8. #441
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Zehahaha's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 510 Discussion / 511 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by da_ni View Post
    I have an answer for this… Kishi just wrights as his heart desires, as if he was telling a story to a 3 y.o. child… But he isn’t, and his wrightings are read and “analized” weakly by thousands of people pretty capable of criticizing him… The worst part about this entire part is the incredible and absurd discrepancy in power between fights.. we don’t have rough battles anymore, we have one guy who one-shots some other guy, then that guy will be one-shoted by another guy stronger than him, and so on… That’s how we got As Nodt defeating Byakuya without getting a scratch, then him and 2 others getting his ass burned by Yamamoto, the we have kempachi defeating easily a guy that could copy his powers, but then getting pawned by his brother (if they were brothers, why copy someone’s power if you are already stronger than him?), and then yamamoto dispatching of 3 SR at the same time, as I said earlier, and then putting an effort to defeat another underling posing as the Big Boss, and then getting bitch slapped by the real boss in one stroke… That’s Bleach for you these days…
    I always thought that Kubo did a mistake with Kenpachi defeating 3 SR, it seems he have taken that novel thing too much... Yamamoto, Aizen, Juha Bach, the leaders pwning other characters is normal, it's a way to show how powerful they are, but other characters nope

    Aizen pwned Gotei 13 + Vizards, in a sense it's normal, because he had not only the power, but the perfect tool for that : KS
    Yama was said to be the strongest shinigami, and have been a CC for 1K years, it would be ridiculous if he couldn't pwn like he did (but then again, he pwned 3 SR not in their Vollstandig form)
    Juha Bach seems extremely strong too, but he seems as cunning as much as Aizen too

    Now, the thing with Byakuya and others, is that they are fighters who rely a lot on their Bankais, there has never been a single fight where Byakuya didn't use his Bankai, and the SR are no weaklings either, they're clearly captain level, Byakuya could've fought with his Shikai/Kido against As Nodt without using her (or his?) Vollstandig, but he couldn't beat her (or him ?) at all, and Quincy knew that, hence why they made the medallion thing : to be 100% sure about their victory

    But I admit that Kenpachi beating 3 SR was just plain absurd and nonsensical... But I guess that was a way for Kubo to hype Juha Bach rather than show us Kenpachi's strenght


    Quote Quote:
    I believe the main problem with Bleach fandom is that they call "plot hole" and "bad writing" things that they just don't like. Again: I too feel that the whole "twin decoy" play was a little off-putting and anticlimatic, but it makes sense in the setting. Please stop trying to find logical faults and just say that you feel disappointed and believe Kubo should have came up with something better.
    Kubo could've made Bleach better if there was a real PLOT, plotwise, Bleach is miles away from let's say OP or Berserk for instance, but it's not Kubo's style, as he has his own philosophy anyway so can't argue much with that
    Last edited by Zehahaha; October 09, 2012 at 02:10 PM.

  9. #442
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    Re: Bleach 510 Discussion / 511 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Sky Render View Post
    Nodt defeated Byakuya thanks to his medallion, which he couldn't use against Yama. Also, Yama is WORLDS APART from Byakuya. You might as well argue that Ayon could defeat Yama because he defeated Hisagi.

    And I believe that the one who defeated Kenpachi was Yhwach himself, who AFTER THAT switched places with Royd (who then grabbed Kenpachi by the neck). Contrived, yes, but hardly a plot hole again.

    I believe the main problem with Bleach fandom is that they call "plot hole" and "bad writing" things that they just don't like. Again: I too feel that the whole "twin decoy" play was a little off-putting and anticlimatic, but it makes sense in the setting. Please stop trying to find logical faults and just say that you feel disappointed and believe Kubo should have came up with something better.
    Not to mention that the term "troll" is becoming more and more popular. I honestly feel like it ruins what could be a post that can be taken seriously.

  10. #443
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Sanadan's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 510 Discussion / 511 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by darkprince0521 View Post
    what plan are you talking about? surely Juha met Aizen in the underground prison.
    Was this stated? I feel like I missed something here
    Meh

  11. #444
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    Re: Bleach 510 Discussion / 511 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Zehahaha View Post
    Nah... Aizen being arrogant doesn't equal him being a moron, he's a tactician, who wouldn't hesitate to use any mean to reach his goals, Aizen is prideful yes and even arrogant, but in no way that made him blind to see his weaknesses nor scheming (until he began to transform), he's a very realistic guy in fact, his arrogance only blinded him when he began to transform, that's where he simply became " drunk " by his own power
    True. The one time he threw caution to the wind, it cost him the fruits of over a century of planning and work. I think he's intelligent enough to have learned from that mistake. So I suppose the question is - what does he have in mind now? If joining Bach would have benefited him in the long term, he probably would have joined him. But he didn't, and I wonder why? He may not get another chance to leave the prison in the 19,999 years he's got left on his sentence. He must have some reason for declining Bach's offer...

  12. #445
    Registered User 九千以上だ! / Kyuusen Ijou Da! / It's Over 9000! mattiaildivino's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 510 Discussion / 511 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanadan View Post
    Was this stated? I feel like I missed something here
    well,juha bach did state he had reached the underground prison to meet him,and he asked him but the latter refused. I hope there's something not-said there,that has happened.

  13. #446
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Sanadan's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 510 Discussion / 511 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by mattiaildivino View Post
    well,juha bach did state he had reached the underground prison to meet him,and he asked him but the latter refused. I hope there's something not-said there,that has happened.
    I dunno, I was reading this:
    http://www.mangareader.net/bleach/510/11
    http://www.mangareader.net/bleach/510/12

    And I just don't see him really claiming he asked recently, could have asked him 100 years ago. Maybe the translation is better some where els but here it leaves the door open to Aizen not speaking to Juha or his stooges in prison but rather having been approached before he was locked up.
    Meh

  14. #447
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member BrunoGF's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 510 Discussion / 511 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by mattiaildivino View Post
    well,juha bach did state he had reached the underground prison to meet him,and he asked him but the latter refused. I hope there's something not-said there,that has happened.
    Aizen's smart. If he refused, there's a chance he knows why the Quincy's plan will fail.

  15. #448
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Oathencrantz's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 510 Discussion / 511 Predictions

    Why the hell would someone of Aizen's stature and power be led by someone like Juha Bach? He'd probably be in line to succeed the Captain Commander.

    I dunno why but for some reason I wish Ginjo was still around, it'd make for interesting storytelling although I don't know how he'd fit in. It's always good to have a couple factions out there for potential battle royals and power struggles.

  16. #449
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    Re: Bleach 510 Discussion / 511 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanadan View Post
    I dunno, I was reading this:
    http://www.mangareader.net/bleach/510/11
    http://www.mangareader.net/bleach/510/12

    And I just don't see him really claiming he asked recently, could have asked him 100 years ago. Maybe the translation is better some where els but here it leaves the door open to Aizen not speaking to Juha or his stooges in prison but rather having been approached before he was locked up.
    He was explaining what he was doing in 1 Division Barracks... what did you do there? I came to meet Aizen.

  17. #450
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Sky Render's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 510 Discussion / 511 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Oathencrantz View Post

    I dunno why but for some reason I wish Ginjo was still around, it'd make for interesting storytelling although I don't know how he'd fit in. It's always good to have a couple factions out there for potential battle royals and power struggles.
    Hell yeah Ginjo should still be around. Him dying without backtory and without explaining where his intel about Isshin came from was a major letdown.

    I believe Kubo killed him off quickly because readers didn't like him nor the arc that starred him. Such a shame. A writer should never have to rush a story when people don't like it.

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