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Thread: Bleach 510 Discussion

  1. #331
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    Re: Bleach 510 Discussion / 511 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    What does stealing reishi have to do at all with stealing bankai?
    Everything in SS is made of spirit particles, including shinigami. The possibility that the quincy could not just steal bankai but instantly rip them apart should have been foreseen and dealt with.

    Quote Quote:
    Your point is absurd, you make it sound as if stealing bankai was at any form a conceivable and more importantly a logically foreseeable risk at any point and among the thousands of shinigami it was exclusively yamamoto's fault that this was not dealt with. Even if it was a conceivable risk in some form (which it isn't) solving that issue would not fall with yamamoto in any form but rather the science department(that leaves either mayuri or urahara). Yamamoto is the military leader not the scientific research head or anything.
    It's not just stealing bankai (though yes, it would be yamamoto's job to make sure the research department focuses on a threat he was most knowledgeable of). Anyway, I didn't say it was exclusively yamamoto's fault. But he is the leader and it's his job to steer the gotei 13. He didn't. Mayuri and Urahara have their own faults but they're not relevant to a discussion regarding Yamamoto.

    Quote Quote:
    So what with the quincy final form? There have been 2 quincy wars so far and as far as we know the final form was already available to the quincy back then. And the shinigami beat it. Even now the supposedly improved volstandig got beaten by ichigo's bankai...
    Go back home and reread the daten Kubo gave us.
    http://www.mangareader.net/94-579-4/...apter-125.html

    Mayuri had no clue in hell what Ishida was using. If quincy used final form 1000 years ago then Yama knew about it but didn't bother to tell anyone, another failure as a leader.

    Quote Quote:
    So tell us, what was yamamoto supposed to do with the warning mayuri gave him that would have changed the entire situation?
    Capture or gain the cooperation of Ishida and have Mayuri research how quincy techniques work. Actually Yamamoto should have done that long before, when Ishida's grandfather was still around. Instead he snored on his throne. Hell, quincy were killing hollows in hueco mundo. They could have captured some of those. Evidently the quincy didn't actually go extinct 1000 years ago since there are still a couple of quincy running around today (and I don't mean the VR)

    Quote Quote:
    As far as we know what ishida's appearance told mayuri was "Holy shit there are still quincy around".
    Ishida was running around killing hollows before that.

    Quote Quote:
    Of course after bach escaped 1000 years ago the only thing that could have been done was for the shinigami to randomly look for him across 3 different dimensions.
    We don't know if Bach escaped or Yamamoto let him go.

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  3. #332
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    Re: Bleach 510 Discussion / 511 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Thinking about the chapter, juha really is a beast. I mean, he uses his sword to make a huge bow which he uses to fire an arrow which juha uses as a sword. With said bowsword he gets straight to yamamoto and wounds him. Thinking about it, what is the deal with something as unnecessary? Is the holy arrow sword more powerful than the sword? Can juha use his sword to fire a barrage of those? Why does juha's sword look like zangetsu's current form?

    I think that scene was used just to depict that Royd did not have access to the abilities of the blade only the visualization of it. It could also be shown as "Divine Punishment" a Blade from the heavens summoned by Bach's sword to Smite Yamamoto. He kind of insulted Yama in the sense of, well you used your whole bankai against me why don't I go all out on you, so he went for one of his abilities and inflicted a mortal wound on him.

  4. #333
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    Re: Bleach 510 Discussion / 511 Predictions

    I doubt Yama's dead just from a sword slash. This is Bleach after all.

  5. #334
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    Re: Bleach 510 Discussion / 511 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Executor View Post
    Everything in SS is made of spirit particles, including shinigami. The possibility that the quincy could not just steal bankai but instantly rip them apart should have been foreseen and dealt with.



    It's not just stealing bankai (though yes, it would be yamamoto's job to make sure the research department focuses on a threat he was most knowledgeable of). Anyway, I didn't say it was exclusively yamamoto's fault. But he is the leader and it's his job to steer the gotei 13. He didn't. Mayuri and Urahara have their own faults but they're not relevant to a discussion regarding Yamamoto.



    Go back home and reread the daten Kubo gave us.
    http://www.mangareader.net/94-579-4/...apter-125.html

    Mayuri had no clue in hell what Ishida was using. If quincy used final form 1000 years ago then Yama knew about it but didn't bother to tell anyone, another failure as a leader.



    Capture or gain the cooperation of Ishida and have Mayuri research how quincy techniques work. Actually Yamamoto should have done that long before, when Ishida's grandfather was still around. Instead he snored on his throne. Hell, quincy were killing hollows in hueco mundo. They could have captured some of those. Evidently the quincy didn't actually go extinct 1000 years ago since there are still a couple of quincy running around today (and I don't mean the VR)



    Ishida was running around killing hollows before that.



    We don't know if Bach escaped or Yamamoto let him go.
    The notion that quincy could steal bankai because of reishi is but an assumption and an unfounded one at that. What the quincy do with reishi is physically absorb it, nothing more. In a extreme scenario the worst case would be a shinigami using bankai and then through their skalaverie they would absorb it (which would indeed give its power to the quincy) however that would still be intrinsically different from what we have seen. It it was that simple then there is no reason for the badge thing to be a new development either as the quincy's most generic ability would be what steals bankai. More so, in bleach there is such a thing as the concept of a soul's soul.

    Mayuri already has analized quincy techniques. A big part of the fight between mayuri and ishida was about how mayuri studied the techniques. Of course mayuri and urahara are not pertinent to a discussion about yamamoto however the scientific knowledge required to even figure out bankai could be stolen and how to stop that would fall specifically on them. There is nothing reasonable about yamamoto supposedly having to force the science department to work on something which he has no objective reason (or the technical know how) to assume is even vaguely possible. Under this logic then yamamoto should have been forcing the science department to work on counters for black holes, mechas and flux capacitors powered pseudo science bombs since with his non existent technical expertize he was able to imagine nonsense. In fact, yamamoto making science assumptions already kicked him in the groin, just look at how his bankai was in fact stolen even though his non abundant technical expertize told him that it could not be done yet.

    The quincy were not a threat when that happened, the shinigami as a whole barely had reason to believe they existed. Even then, there is no reason for us to think that the shinigami currently fighting don't know what the lezt stilt is. We also don't know where mayuri was during either of the past wars and for all we know he was not around yet. The scenario you are proposing is that yamamoto or the older captains should bother explaining the letz stilt even though that with the information he had there was no reasonable way to know there even was a quincy among the ryoka. Kinda like this:

    Yamamoto: What do we know about the ryoka 12th division?
    12th division: They came from the sky and their appearance to some degree. Maybe.
    Yamamoto: Anything else?
    12th division: Precisely nothing else sir.
    Yamamoto: Excellent! Taking in consideration that we eliminated most quincy 200 years ago and the rest mysteriously died over the last couple of decades I will proceed to explain the full range of quincy abilities!
    Everyone: WTF? You are actually going to waste time explaining a set of abilities from enemies we have no coherent reason to believe are here or even still exist?
    Yamamoto: I am a billion years old! I am supposed to do nonsense based on what my gut tells me!


    So? for all we know killing 1 hollow at a time does not have a significant impact on the balance of souls which is the most ishida could have managed anyways. That would be entirely mayuri's deal though.

    So...? If yamamoto for some reason allowed him to escape then looking for him across 3 dimensions would beat the point of letting him escape. If bach escaped on his own then the options yamamoto would have been left with was looking randomly for him across 3 dimensions with his limited resources. Looking for him with no clue of where to look for across multiple dimensions (it does seem the ice palace is in a separate dimension from the 3 or SS knows about) is absurd beyond reason. The best way to actually look for him would have been literally to put a up on a wall and select which places to look for him by throwing darts.

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  7. #335
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    Re: Bleach 510 Discussion / 511 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    The notion that quincy could steal bankai because of reishi is but an assumption and an unfounded one at that.
    It's not unfounded, I just told you what it's founded on. They should have prepared for the worst. Yama in particular should be prepared to deal with a scenario he was already in with aizen: his zanpakuto getting stripped of its power and having that power become a danger to everybody else, only this time it was much worse. Bankai is just a tool, and sometimes your tool gets taken away from you. A lesson Yama refused to learn and all of soul society will pay for now.

    Quote Quote:
    What the quincy do with reishi is physically absorb it, nothing more. In a extreme scenario the worst case would be a shinigami using bankai and then through their skalaverie they would absorb it (which would indeed give its power to the quincy) however that would still be intrinsically different from what we have seen. It it was that simple then there is no reason for the badge thing to be a new development either as the quincy's most generic ability would be what steals bankai. More so, in bleach there is such a thing as the concept of a soul's soul.
    We haven't seen anything about how the badges work. It's possible they are just "sklaverei in a bottle". Opie noted that his sklaverei acquired powers would run out eventually. It's possible that the badges simply store that power indefinitely but the acquisition process is based on sklaverei.

    Either way, the quincy fight by absorbing reishi, and nothing was done to counter this.

    Quote Quote:
    Mayuri already has analized quincy techniques. A big part of the fight between mayuri and ishida was about how mayuri studied the techniques. Of course mayuri and urahara are not pertinent to a discussion about yamamoto however the scientific knowledge required to even figure out bankai could be stolen and how to stop that would fall specifically on them. There is nothing reasonable about yamamoto supposedly having to force the science department to work on something which he has no objective reason (or the technical know how) to assume is even vaguely possible. Under this logic then yamamoto should have been forcing the science department to work on counters for black holes, mechas and flux capacitors powered pseudo science bombs since with his non existent technical expertize he was able to imagine nonsense.
    You are losing it. Flux capacitors? He should have had mayuri work on blocking quincy reishi absorption techniques, which they knew existed. There's nothing theoretical about this. Yama may not be a scientist but he is a warrior who had firsthand experience with other warriors' abilities. R&D even built their own reiatsu absorption seal (kenpachi's). If I was a shinigami the quincy's potential would scare the shit out of me.

    Quote Quote:
    In fact, yamamoto making science assumptions already kicked him in the groin, just look at how his bankai was in fact stolen even though his non abundant technical expertize told him that it could not be done yet.
    Yamamoto knew their bankai stealing had to be countered. He assumed his couldn't because he's so damn awesome and he'd just waste everybody if it came to a fight. There's nothing scientific about it, it's just plain arrogance. That's what I mean about him being an incompetent leader. I don't expect Yama to throw on a lab coat and start reverse engineering quincy crosses, but it is his job to direct the gotei 13's general direction. It seems his standard mode of operation is to have everyone train to swing swords, and when a threat shows up they swing their sword at them until they drop. It's why both Aizen and Bach played him like a banjo.

    Quote Quote:
    The quincy were not a threat when that happened, the shinigami as a whole barely had reason to believe they existed. Even then, there is no reason for us to think that the shinigami currently fighting don't know what the lezt stilt is.
    Yama is the topic of discussion here, not "shinigami as a whole", and Yama knew they existed because he knew Bach got away.

    Quote Quote:
    We also don't know where mayuri was during either of the past wars and for all we know he was not around yet. The scenario you are proposing is that yamamoto or the older captains should bother explaining the letz stilt even though that with the information he had there was no reasonable way to know there even was a quincy among the ryoka. Kinda like this:

    Yamamoto: What do we know about the ryoka 12th division?
    12th division: They came from the sky and their appearance to some degree. Maybe.
    Yamamoto: Anything else?
    12th division: Precisely nothing else sir.
    Yamamoto: Excellent! Taking in consideration that we eliminated most quincy 200 years ago and the rest mysteriously died over the last couple of decades I will proceed to explain the full range of quincy abilities!
    Everyone: WTF? You are actually going to waste time explaining a set of abilities from enemies we have no coherent reason to believe are here or even still exist?
    Yamamoto: I am a billion years old! I am supposed to do nonsense based on what my gut tells me!
    Your ridiculous scenario never had a reason to happen. After Ichigo's invasion Mayuri warned yamamoto of a potential quincy threat. Yama knew Bach escaped. There was very good reason to prepare against a potential attack.

    Quote Quote:
    So? for all we know killing 1 hollow at a time does not have a significant impact on the balance of souls which is the most ishida could have managed anyways. That would be entirely mayuri's deal though.
    Mayuri did his job of warning Yama about the Quincy. Ishida did not go undetected.

    Quote Quote:
    So...? If yamamoto for some reason allowed him to escape then looking for him across 3 dimensions would beat the point of letting him escape.
    If yama allowed him to escape then that further confirms he's an incompetent leader. If he thought the quincy genocide was a bad idea he should have rejected it. If he was gonna go through with it he should've finished off bach. Half-assing it just makes everything worse.

  8. #336
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    Re: Bleach 510 Discussion / 511 Predictions

    am i reading "posts" or "contracts"...?. lol.

    yeah, Quincies mainly absorb spirit power (reiatsu), which makes them dangerous in terms of enemies against Shinigami, Hollows or Fullbringers. I can see why, they were wiped clean from existence 200 years ago. At least most of them were and now, Juha and the Vandenreich are back with a firm intent of sending the spirit worlds into chaos.

    I would like to know more about Juha's sword. If it is a sword or something more powerful than "Seele Schiender".

  9. #337
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 510 Discussion / 511 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Executor View Post
    It's not unfounded, I just told you what it's founded on. They should have prepared for the worst. Yama in particular should be prepared to deal with a scenario he was already in with aizen: his zanpakuto getting stripped of its power and having that power become a danger to everybody else, only this time it was much worse. Bankai is just a tool, and sometimes your tool gets taken away from you. A lesson Yama refused to learn and all of soul society will pay for now.



    We haven't seen anything about how the badges work. It's possible they are just "sklaverei in a bottle". Opie noted that his sklaverei acquired powers would run out eventually. It's possible that the badges simply store that power indefinitely but the acquisition process is based on sklaverei.

    Either way, the quincy fight by absorbing reishi, and nothing was done to counter this.



    You are losing it. Flux capacitors? He should have had mayuri work on blocking quincy reishi absorption techniques, which they knew existed. There's nothing theoretical about this. Yama may not be a scientist but he is a warrior who had firsthand experience with other warriors' abilities. R&D even built their own reiatsu absorption seal (kenpachi's). If I was a shinigami the quincy's potential would scare the shit out of me.



    Yamamoto knew their bankai stealing had to be countered. He assumed his couldn't because he's so damn awesome and he'd just waste everybody if it came to a fight. There's nothing scientific about it, it's just plain arrogance. That's what I mean about him being an incompetent leader. I don't expect Yama to throw on a lab coat and start reverse engineering quincy crosses, but it is his job to direct the gotei 13's general direction. It seems his standard mode of operation is to have everyone train to swing swords, and when a threat shows up they swing their sword at them until they drop. It's why both Aizen and Bach played him like a banjo.



    Yama is the topic of discussion here, not "shinigami as a whole", and Yama knew they existed because he knew Bach got away.



    Your ridiculous scenario never had a reason to happen. After Ichigo's invasion Mayuri warned yamamoto of a potential quincy threat. Yama knew Bach escaped. There was very good reason to prepare against a potential attack.



    Mayuri did his job of warning Yama about the Quincy. Ishida did not go undetected.



    If yama allowed him to escape then that further confirms he's an incompetent leader. If he thought the quincy genocide was a bad idea he should have rejected it. If he was gonna go through with it he should've finished off bach. Half-assing it just makes everything worse.
    All you did was say that reishi absorption somehow translates to the quincy being somehow able to steal bankai. I don't see how that makes sense at all, its only a bunch of worst plastered into a sentence. There is no reason for us to think that merely absorbing reishi would somehow affect a shinigami's inner spirit at all. We don't even know what the rules of inner worlds are for that matter.

    If the badges were anything of the sort then it would make sense to use them to absorb everything a shinigami is though, not just its bankai.

    Telling mayuri to work on something to block reishi absorption is different from telling him to work on something to steal bankai though. There is the consideration that any technique or device made of reishi so as to block reishi absorption would have been absorbed though. And what does kenpachi's eyepatch have to do with anything? It does the same thing the quincy do, absorb power.

    Yamamoto didn't just go and tell everyone his bankai couldn't be stolen because he was awesome. He had his own reasons to believe they couldn't in fact steal it which is something intrinsically different from mere arrogance.

    The ridiculous scenario is about yamamoto for some reason telling shinigami about what quincy can do during the ryoka invasion, nothing else. You are the one who mentioned it was absurd mayuri wouldn't know about the final form. My entire point is that there was no reason for yamamoto to tell anyone about the quincy at that particular time because it would be plain irrational based on the information they had available at the time.

    Quote Quote:
    Mayuri did his job of warning Yama about the Quincy. Ishida did not go undetected.
    Now, this is just plain confusing. Ishida was made know to the shinigami during the SS arc, not before. Previously you wrote this: "Ishida was running around killing hollows before that. ". Is killing hollows supposed to immediately tell SS that a quincy is in the human world? How? Even when ishida was killing hollows before ichigo got to them neither rukia or SS figured out it was a quincy. So yeah, ishida was undetected until the SS arc.

    Quote Quote:
    If yama allowed him to escape then that further confirms he's an incompetent leader. If he thought the quincy genocide was a bad idea he should have rejected it. If he was gonna go through with it he should've finished off bach. Half-assing it just makes everything worse.
    For one thing that is only one half of that paragraph I wrote. In the paragraph I was comparing 2 different scenarios and that is only one of them. I didn't actually say yamamoto let him escape, we don't really have any notion of what happened 1000 years ago. Personally I doubt yamamoto showed mercy though.

  10. #338
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    Re: Bleach 510 Discussion / 511 Predictions

    something struck me while you guys were discussing sklaverei and reishi absoprtion, remember when ishida and renji were fighting szayel? Szayel managed to cancel out the quicy's reishi absorption!

    http://www.mangareader.net/94-728-4/...apter-274.html
    http://www.mangareader.net/94-728-16...apter-274.html

    Kubo said that what mayuri found in szayel's lab will be important later on in the story, if they can analyze szayel's dirty trick they can disable their absoprtion.
    Could it be...

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  12. #339
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    Re: Bleach 510 Discussion / 511 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by dopeycheese View Post
    something struck me while you guys were discussing sklaverei and reishi absoprtion, remember when ishida and renji were fighting szayel? Szayel managed to cancel out the quicy's reishi absorption!

    http://www.mangareader.net/94-728-4/...apter-274.html
    http://www.mangareader.net/94-728-16...apter-274.html

    Kubo said that what mayuri found in szayel's lab will be important later on in the story, if they can analyze szayel's dirty trick they can disable their absoprtion.
    Could it be...
    I would think that is a tad different. From what I recall szayel was indeed able to seal abilities in general provided he had analized them first. I do think you might be onto something here. The explanation for how szayel was able to seal abilities is somewhat similar to how yamamoto thought VR was stealing bankai. Perhaps his own theory was based on some sort of report given by renji or mayuri about szayel?

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    Re: Bleach 510 Discussion / 511 Predictions

    ....and people still believe in Santa Claus and think Bunnies lay chicken eggs on Easter.

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    Re: Bleach 510 Discussion / 511 Predictions

    Mayuri and the science division have a certain degree of autonomy, Mayuri doesn't need Yamamoto's permission or guidance to make a research on something which may prove valuable later. Actually we even saw him bypass authority when he killed off 28,000 SS residents to restore balance. I doubt all his experiments and inventions are with the approval of Yamamoto either and I think a generic order such as "find something useful against the quincies or hollows in case they attack us" would be redundant because it's already in Mayuri's job description and area of interest, this is why he collects dead bodies.

    I don't think Yamamoto could foresee and counter the possibility of bankai stealing techniques by any means. His primary duty as a leader under the current circumstances was to encourage his subordinates and fight to the best of his abilities which he already did. He knew he would probably lose to Bach with shikai only, so he tested the validity of his theory. It wasn't a baseless risk and we can't say that what he did was plain wrong and stupid just because it failed. Would it be better if he didn't give it a shot and lose anyway?

    IMHO Yamamoto isn't an incompetent leader, it's just that his opponents have the means to win no matter what he does. In arrancar arc Ichigo wasn't under the effects of KS and now his bankai can't be stolen, everything was set up in a way to favor him because he's the main character. Ichigo will eventually win, if the winner is always right, then it makes Ichigo the best leader there is even though we know some of his decisions are controversial.

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    Re: Bleach 510 Discussion / 511 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Blah blah blah
    I don't need to even reply to your comment. It's off topic in the first place, and you couldn't even come up with your own counter. You used my words to try and 'come back' at me? What a waste. You twisted what I said around to make it fit to your liking. You're also trying to use logic in bleach where it doesn't fit. Because a kido in chant and in description 'warps time and space' it'll somehow be able to do said warping to Yama's bankai? There's your reaching.

    And please, save your petty arguments and story book long posts for someone who cares. I really don't. I don't concede this argument, because I never argued. And I could care less what you think about the manga. You're entire post is reading into the manga the way YOU see it. That doesn't make it fact. Only someone who looks too far into things for his own conclusion would take a page someone else linked to and say it's a cop out when it's clearly stated in the manga that normal logic doesn't apply to said character. Not only did you misread that, but you also misunderstood what that was posted for! If you can't comprehend what 'logic not applying' means in terms to your original statement, say so. Don't ACT like you know what I was getting at, then spend an eternity typing out some long winded response that has no bearing.

    Try again junior. No, as a matter of fact, don't try again.
    Last edited by freshseth83; October 05, 2012 at 04:20 AM.

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    Re: Bleach 510 Discussion / 511 Predictions

    I got to thinking that maybe the medallion is an extension to the quincy's ability to absorb reishi, like say they absorb the bankai where would it go, it has a physical presence so to speak so the medallion is just a container, not so much the actual tool to steal it
    Spoiler show

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    Re: Bleach 510 Discussion / 511 Predictions

    but shikai and bankai (and a zanpakuto as a whole) are part / an aspect of the soul of each shinigami, so stealing a part of the soul has a different meaning than simple reishi particles absorption. This quincy ability is really HAX!

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    Re: Bleach 510 Discussion / 511 Predictions

    i don't think it does, i mean yeah okay they are a separate entity but in reality and from what we see of ichigo going into is inner world the Zan's are just an extension of the shinigami's essence, but the way the medallion works is that it needs the Reishi to be forced out of the shinigami by them releasing their bankai. But i hope we get a full explanation of how these work even if it is rukia doing some drawings
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