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Translations: Bleach 600 (2)
---------- Post added at 09:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:39 AM ----------
Hyakkuren won't work if somebody simply hits well placed weak shots. Shown by Fuji and Chitose.
Fuji can win this. Returning ZSS won't be impossible since he trains with Tezuka in Seigaku, and as MS Winners.
CE + Cord Ball CAN save him.
CE + Cord balls can break TP and TZ.
Fuji doesn't have Hoshi Hanabi since Tezuka can perfectly return 5th Counter.
Airgrimes' right. Tezukas's techniques is all shown to be broken by Fuji via Niou. Tmk's also ban. So while we all know Tezuka could have won this, it actually couid go either way.
It depends on how much stat Tezuka is compare to Niou. That seemed to be the only saving graces Tezuka have right now.
Remember PoT ended with the top MSers being TMnK!Ryoma!!! Yuki, Sanada, then Fuji and Tezuka, then Niou, Atobe and Shiraishi.
PoT ended with a different situation to what we're dealing with now.
Konomi oddly ended the whole thing with Supersaiyan Ryoma being the King of it all but Rikkai being the next two strongest which I still find odd but it was awesome anyway.
regarding Zero shiki serve, i doubt tezuka would use it , because it may have a similar damages that Tezuka Phantom does.
also fuji may be able to return it because he saw in the niou/atobe vs ochi/mouri match that it can be returned.
---------- Post added at 04:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:34 PM ----------
Regarding the outcome of this match? it's all subjective. let me say why.
Playing in real life tennis.. a player can not always hit an ace or return a serve, yet in the manga it happens almost all the time, if the serve isn't a technique or if the player isnt affected by the opponent's technique.
also rallys do not always get hit back and forth. IRL tennis even the top players can't sometimes return the ball do to the ball's speed,power, and direction of the ball being hit in relation to the returning hitter. also a players stamina , strength, speed, and mental ability, how tired they are play a factor
Fuji as we seen in his most recent defeat and matches, if cornered he will make new counters to win the game or try to win. He will also find ways to counter/ overcome special moves/techniques used by his opponents with his new counters or with new innovative ways.because he a genius.
Despite his evolution, he still lost to shiraishi, because shiraishi is a better tennis player in regarding to all around technique. his bible allow his to use his movements and hits shots efficiently. People may argue fuji would have won against that, but that shows that all around technique can trump special moves. Shiraishi's win vs fuji reflects more of IRL tennis.
Tezuka, in terms of all rounder skills he's really good, arguably better than fuji and shiraishi. in fact that is mostly all he has and his doors to muga. to prove this, he has not many special moves. when faced with an opponent's special move he can't defeat he either has to lose or use phantom to makes an opponent's shot hit out of the court, since he cant "figure out a way to" return some special moves.
So in conclusion how do you want to decide this match? do you want to compare both player's all rounder skills or use of special techniques.
if u judge by all rounder skills like basic speed, strength, stamina, endurance, intelligence/mental and ability to play tennis , then the winner is TEZUKA.
if you judge this match by who will win by using special technique, the winner is FUJI, because tezuka has shown that he can't evolve and make new special techniques on the spot during the match like fuji. And fuji will evolve during a match to counter the opponents' special techniques and make new ones to defeat the opponent.
so how does one decide this match? that's why i conclude its purely subjective. fuji should win based on his ability to counter and create new techniques. but tezuka should win because his all rounder skills can beat fuji, just like shiraishi's all rounder tennis skills beat fuji.
what do you value more?genius and techniques or all rounder tennis skills, which is more reflective of IRL tennis.
i wrote this really fast without thinking much so i know there are flaws in my argument. please discuss and nitpick.
and do you think its subjective? should the winner be determined with the combination of all rounder skills and special moves, because if use a mix of those 2 criteria as the determining factor, then the winner is obvious.
Last edited by ashore; September 29, 2012 at 03:19 PM.
Well if Fuji took straight games with CE + Cord Ball against Tezuka!Niou, then all Fuji needs to do is break one of Tezuka's games to win. However the reverse applies as well... If it goes to a tiebreaker, Fuji only needs to return ZSS once and keep his serve to win. Chances are that since he's seen the technique before he'll probably be able to return it by the end of the game.
or you could say its too close but i like person A better because he looks cooler so person A win! woot
demonstrating subjectivity, even if you free will to choice anyway you like.
@ashore, Comparing to PoT to real life just doesn't work. Like it really doesn't work.
All Tezuka have of Fuji is ZSS.
Which I believe Fuji could eventually return at the tie-break.
Fuji won't drop a game whilst neither will Tezuka.
Using both character's level at the end of POT since Fuji has done absolutely nothing in NPOT to draw any conclusion of his power, Tezuka would win rather easily. When Nioh cloned Tezuka he was already behind, and got to 5-4 and it was his serve. Even the random nobodies pointed out that at that point, just doing 4 Zeroth serve would be game over, but the cloned Tezuka cannot use Zeroth serve. The real Tezuka would be able to use it and so far it appears the only way to return the Zeroth Serve involves the speed of light (Rai) plus a 2 other techniques, so we'll assume Fuji can't do it (#9 and #10 can't do it, after all).
Honestly Fuji strikes me as the guy who plays ONLY the #1 guy in the whatever area you're in and then say, "Well everyone loses to that guy". Nioh returned Fuji's 5th counter in a single frame when he cloned Tezuka, which suggests to Tezuka, a special move by Fuji is just a normal rally. Fuji might be a fan favorite but with the moveset he is, he's nowhere on the same tier as Tezuka tier characters.
Fuji nullifies Saiki Kanpatsu, Hyakku Ren Jitoku, Tezuka Zone, Tezuka Phantom all through Closed Eye and the unreadable Cord Ball.
Tezuka can return all counters from 1 to 5. So its dead even except for one thing.
Tezuka's Zero Shiki Serve.
However, the principle is similar to Houou Gaeshi, and also, since the Nationals Fuji would have seen Tezuka use it at Seigaku for a while.
I don't know if Fuji could win this, but there is no way Tezuka without TMnK is winning easily.
Also it was Fuji himself who pointed it out.
Did you read the manga?
Fuji completely nullified everything Tezuka had except for ZSS. Tezuka without TMnK shouldn't take a game from Fuji's service game. Going by techniques, it's tight between them when you remove TMnK.
Going back to PoT, Tezuka was only just above Atobe and Shiraishi.
But Fuji nearly reached his equal as that's how Konomi likely wanted to end things.
There wasn't a big gap at the end of the series.
Last edited by Airgrimes; September 29, 2012 at 03:52 PM.
---------- Post added at 12:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:52 PM ----------
---------- Post added at 01:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:58 PM ----------
I agree with that statement and disagree.
Its correct we haven't seen Fuji's strength in NPOT. we can only assume he has gained a bit more skill. like other players, he just did the rigorous physical training that U-17 camp requires.
But we also have to exam fuji's previous match shown to the manga readers , which is the natoinal finals from pot 1. And fuji shows he can return/counter tezuka's moves. Is the Clone tezuka as good as the Real thing? probably not. I will say niou did help win 5 games with tezuka's ZSS. alsorecall TnK is not allowed anymore.
And also please state your reasoning....why tezuka would win.
Last edited by ashore; September 29, 2012 at 03:05 PM.
Tezuka probably made the biggest gain since NPOT started (learning TMnK) so there's no point to talk about Fuji getting better because thus far, TMnK trumps anything at the middle school level so whatever Fuji may have learned wouldn't even matter.
Fuji was up 3-0 when Nioh cloned Tezuka, and then after some theoratically 'close calls' we're shown 5-4 with Nioh serving, and the commentor says if Nioh used 4 Zeroth Serve it'd be all over. There's no indication that Fuji can return the 0th serve.
Now if you work out the math, this means even in this 'super awesome close call fight', Nioh is ahead 5-1 after he cloned Tezuka. Assuming the cloned Tezuka is certainly no better than the real version, that means the real version would be up 5-1 if they start the match normally and then do 4 0th Serve in a row and end it 6-1. In fact it'd pretty much play out exactly like the game against Chitose. Tezuka has no problem doing 4 Zeroth Serve in a blowout and I'd say 6-1 is a blowout in POT.
It doesn't matter that the narration claims Fuji was able to defeat the clone Tezuka. The score shows very clearly that he was behind 1-5 against the clone Tezuka and the only thing that saved him was that the clone Tezuka cannot use the 0th serve. There's no way the real Tezuka would do worse than the clone so 6-1 is the best score Fuji can even hope for.
---------- Post added at 03:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:40 PM ----------
As an aside I assume Tezuka has some reasonably good strategy on using his limited moves, even though he doesn't seem to be very good at budgeting his limited moves. We can assume you can only use some fixed number of total Tezuka Phantoms + 0th Serves, sort of like an equivalent pitch count in baseball, because both of these moves does massive damage to yourself. We know Tezuka's limit at the end of POT is 5 0th Serves + 16+ Tezuka Phantoms (he got 5 games off Sanada, and he has to use one of those 2 moves to get a point off Sanada, plus whatever Phantoms that got countered by Rin). On the other hand, the clone Tezuka's limit is 0 0th Serve + 1+ Tezuka Phantoms. We know from NPOT that Nioh takes the corresponding damage from whatever move he clones, which would explain why he has a limited number of usages on the 'limited moves'. Note that Fuji was not shown being able to counter the Tezuka Phantom (Nioh used it once, and then never again), so we'll have to assume Nioh stopped using the Phantom due to self preservation + limited efficiency while cloning.
Since it seems to be implied that Tezuka would've won if Sanada didn't use Rin, we can assume he can use 4X0th Serve + 20 Phantoms without irrecoverable damage. If Fuji cannot return the Phantom (no indication he can) then that alone is enough to win. But let's say one of Fuji's counter can deal with Phantom (the 4th one seems like it might work, though it's a mystery why he didn't use it against Nioh), you have to remember the fact that because the cloned Tezuka has a very limited number of Phantom usages, this implies the cloned Tezuka was using lesser moves while building a 5-1 edge. Unless the real Tezuka grossly misjudged his opponent and just started using Phantoms for no good reason, he is obviously capable of using all of his non self-mutiliating moves with minimal impact. Out of all his other moves, the ZSS probably has the highest 'self damage' factor and yet we see that Tezuka can still use it in a triple digit tiebreaker against Atobe with a busted shoulder (the point Tezuka lost was when he messed up the ZSS, which implies he's probably been relying on that move in the triple digit tiebreaker).
It's true Fuji seems to have a certain 'respond better under pressure' but as long as Tezuka didn't waste his first 4 0th serve while he's ahead, it really doesn't matter Fuji cannot break Tezuka's serve when he uses the 0th serve, so even if the score is say 5-4 with Tezuka serving, Fuji is still guaranteed to lose due to his inability to return the 0th serve.
Tezuka Phantom, Both doors of Muga Tezuka has and every technique does not work against Fuji except ZSS.
This simply cannot be a blow-out if only ZSS works on Fuji.
Phantom was never returned by Fuji. Niou used Phantom exactly once and was never shown doing it again. Given Phantom is a rather dangerous move to yourself the most logical assumption is that he decides to stop risking his own arm. There is certainly no evidence that Fuji will be able to return it.
I don't see how you come to the conclusion that 'Tezuka's techniques do not work on Fuji'. Let me recap the events:
Fuji was up 3-0 against Niou.
Niou cloned Tezuka.
After some series of events, we're shown cloned Tezuka hitting the 5th counter cleanly over the net (no cord balls here) and winning the game and up 5-4.
This means Niou, after he cloned Tezuka, is up 5-1 against Fuji during this timespan. This is pretty much a blowout and yet apparently none of Tezuka's lesser moves (Niou cannot use the two most powerful moves) work on Fuji?
Closed Eyes was used when Fuji was down 5-1 and at that point it wouldn't matter because he can't return 0th Serve whether his eyes are open or not. You can't say 'what if he starts in that form' because that's never been shown to happen. The two instances he used Closed Eyes are all toward the end of the match, but if Tezuka is ahead at the end of the match and he hasn't wasted his 4 0th Serves then it wouldn't matter at all.
The clone Tezuka returned the 5th counter cleanly (shows him hitting deep in the opposite corner for the 5-4), so no reason the real Tezuka can't do the same. Tezuka has no particular dependence on hitting cord balls. We don't know why Shiraishi hits cord balls against the 5th counter (either he can barely get the ball over or he thought it's actually a good idea), but Tezuka has no such limitations.
Again I'm really amazed why people think cloned Tezuka going 5-1 on Fuji is supposed to be a sign that Fuji is a match for the real Tezuka, especially when Fuji also said the cloned Tezuka isn't anywhere as strong as the real one, and yet that clone was blowing him out 5-1.
Last edited by Phantron; September 29, 2012 at 04:45 PM.