2. Do you have evidence that sasuke can use his Ms without risking running out of chakra? His fight with kabuto isn't enough to conclude that he has more chakra than the last time. And does obito said that gaining the ems would give sasuke a new power and not some power that can boost his chakra?
3. In his fight against danzo, sasuke run out his chakra for using his Ms, he got a new chakra from Karin.
4. What hand signs? Oonoki`s dust element doesn't need any hand signs. Dust element is just like the rasengan. Oonoki just need to manipulate his chakra to his hands to create those jutsu. Nothing more.
And by the way, you forgot that sasuke got his new chakra from zetsu before oonoki almost got him by his jutsu. So it's not ridiculous. Its a fact.
Oonoki can use his dust element for 3 to 4 times. And that jutsu is an instant. Sasuke can't escape from that.
These handsigns. And these. I have no idea where you got this idea that Dust release doesn't require handsigns.
Yeah, Sasuke got chakra from Zetsu, which he proceeded to use straight away on powering up Susanoo, once again putting him on near empty. It's not instant, and if it takes Ee his fastest speed boosted up to the max chakra to evade an attack from Sasuke, Onoki who is world's slower is gonna hit before he could blink.
Well, your second scan shows that oonoki never used any hand signs. He just directly create his dust element.
And one thing, I thought those kind of hand sign is just to concentrate your chakra just like sasuke did to raikage to cast his genjutsu?
Karin did healed sasuke but at the same time she replenish sasuke`s chakra.
The manga never said anything that sasuke boost his chakra after he got the ems. So fighting the kages even though he have the ems, he already master his new power, he can't feel any side effect of his eye power, but he doesn't have the chakra to fight them one after the other. He simply can`t do that.
In this fght, he needs to kill the kages. But killing raikage, gaara and oonoki, sasuke needs a lot of chakra, a lot of his ems/Ms powers. Its too earlyfor sasuke to fight the kages like madara. Its too early for sasuke to trash the kages like madara did. And above all, its too early for sasuke to compare with madara.
Sasuke using Raiton on his Susano spear makes sense. You don't need a continous contact with the weapon for the Raiton to stay there. If Sasuke puts (just an exaple) Raiton on his sword and trows it away then that Raiton on the blade is not going to go away if Sasuke so desires. Remember Suigetsu getting impaled by a Raiton sword and the raiton was working just fine even if no direct contact was with a human?
Yeah all Sasuke needs to do is place some Raiton on the spear and then leave it like that. Only problem with this is that we don't know if it works on any material. As of now we know it works on metal objects as they conduct electricity.
So we do have some evidence on this but it can be argued both ways. Just my 2 cents.
Either way, it's established that he can use multiple MS techniques in a single battle without being worn out. Sasuke would hardly need alot of chakra. Covering the room in one Amaterasu would be enough for Ee, Gaara can be dealt with by his regular Raiton techniques/Susanoo arrow, same with Tsunade and Mei, and Tsukuyomi/Amatersu to finish Onoki off. Even going by the maximum of Susanoo for each of them, that would still be one usage left over going by his fight with Danzo. Sasuke hardly needs to be Madara to deal with the Kages. All five Kages could barely handle Madara playing around with just his skeletal Susanoo. Sasuke going full out should at least equal an at ease Madara.
Knowing like we do that the Sharingans eyes are connected, it makes sense for someone with an high affinity over Amaterasu like Sasuke to have it connected with Susano'o.
Just like Susano'o was connected to Sasuke's eye genjutsu against Shi
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As it is, Amaterasu is a part of Sasuke's Susano'o, and thus its perfectly reasonable for Sasuke to combine the two, like he did with the sword and the jewel.
Saying that he manipulated those flames doesn't make sense, for various reasons:
1- you don't see flames traveling, you see flames popping up
2- we know Amaterasu < Raikage in speed, and Sasuke just finished using a single Amaterasu. To do what you claimed, he would have to spam another Amaterasu right after the first ( a thing he never did, neither with MS nor with EMS ), making it even faster, and then, even more quickly, manipulate those flames with Enton. All in a space of time required for Raikage to go behind him, so, what, 1 second?
On the new jutsu, I give you an A for effort and ingenuity
No, it isn't apart of it. That'd be like saying FRS is a part of Chakra Mode and Sage Mode because it's used most often during these other techniques. The only (ONLY) relation Amaterasu has to Susanoo is the fact that you have to have access to it before gaining access to Susanoo.Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood
No... that doesn't work. The fact that he had access to Amaterasu before he could use Susanoo (aswell as the fact that it can be used without relying on Susanoo) is proof that it's not a part of it. His Enton Jewel is a part of it because it's only usuable during Susanoo. Ditto for his Enton Magatama and other Susanoo armaments. Amaterasu is unaffiliated.Quote:
You don't see Raikage traveling during his Shunshin either. That's my point: speed.Quote:
No. It wasn't Amaterasu, it was Enton gleaned from the initial Amaterasu he fired. If it was an Amaterasu he would have had to look at the ribs to create the flames first. Instead they appeared from nowhere without necessity of eyesightQuote:
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/463/13 Shi attests to the fact that Amaterasu ignites what the user focuses eyesight on.
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/463/14 Sasuke's not looking at Raikage, nor his ribs, but flames appear around his Susanoo (appearing after Raikage got there and surprising him, evidenced by the exclamation point). Then, Shi states that Sasuke controlled his flames. He also states that he altered their shape. That's manipulation. That's Enton, which can only be used thanks to previously created flames. Meaning it canonically can ONLY appear from an already created Amaterasu.
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/464/12 http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/464/13Here he's using Enton by holding a ball of Amaterasu above his head. The Amaterasu is firing out little "bullets" of Enton at Gaara. If they could simply appear from his Susanoo then why go through the trouble of holding an orb nearby to have access to the flames at all times? Why aren't they just erupting from his ribs? Because they CAN'T.
Even the wiki states Kokuen no Tate (shield of black flames) is a jutsu where you use the flames of Amaterasu to make a shield. Not the flames of Susanoo, mind you. The flames of Amaterasu.
Why he has an Amaterasu sword?
There is no time for Sasuke to pop up another Amaterasu and manipulate it with Enton to stick it on the bones, literally no times.Quote:
It also helps that it makes no sense.
It wasn't Enton on the initial Amaterasu, because, as we can see, the samurai still was engulfed by Amaterasu.Quote:
Also, do explain how Amaterasu flames reduced when Sasuke had that pain in the eye, just like Susano'o withers when Sasuke is in pain.
Considering that, if those were flames already created by another Amaterasu, they should be the same flames and burn in the same way.
And before you argue about it, remember that Sasuke had to use his MS to forcefully remove the flames around both Karin and Bee, just like Itachi did.
Unless you believe Sasuke reduced the flames on his own will, which would be strange
And then how Enton is so easily stoppable by Gaara?Quote:
You say that Enton > Raikage, and then we saw Sand > Enton. Unless you believe Gaara's sand >> V2 Raikage, it simply makes no sense.
As for not appearing on his Susano'o, excuse me but where is that flame?
Its because those flames are Amaterasu flames ( they have the same properties ), just like the jewel is Amaterasu and the sword is Amaterasu. Being part of Susano'o doesn't mean they have different properties.
Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood
What? Because he had only just then reached the final level of his Susanoo, which is the only version of Susanoo that has access to the Enton Jewel. That's why we saw the jewel; because... he manifested the jewel. Are you claiming it's made out of the Susanoo chakra? Where are you getting all of this!?
You're not reading what I'm writing. I KNOW there's not time to make another Amaterasu. He didn't make another Amaterasu. He used the previously created Amaterasu (burning the samurai's armor) to glean flames off of the armor, bring them over to his Susanoo, coat his Susanoo, and defend against Raikage.Quote:
The only way this could not make sense is if you've never, ever heard of Enton in your life. And I know you have. So stop being obstinate. You just don't want to concede that the speed that it took to move a portion of the flames back is superior to Raikage's V2 speed.
Because Sasuke doesn't repurpose the entire Amaterasu when making Enton, proven by my previous scans against Gaara: he kept an orb above his head, fired flames from it via Enton, yet the orb above him didn't disappear. It's because he only sent a portion at Gaara as an offense. The literal exact same thing happened against Raikage.Quote:
What you're saying has no bearing on the argument. You're saying that because the flames "originated from Susanoo", then having eye pains make them diminish because... they originated from Susanoo? So why the hell didn't the Susanoo begin reducing? Why did it stay solid?Quote:
Despite already proving your claim inaccurate, I'll go ahead and answer your question: Quite obviously, the reason the flames reduced is because the flames on his Susanoo were Enton, not Amaterasu. Any time a ninja is controlling the shape of an object and they lose focus, the control of said object wains. If my eye is being used to coat my armor in flames, and then I feel a migraine headache, then those flames aren't gonna maintain their shape so easily.
Nope. He reduced the flames because he got karate chopped in the friggin' neck. Multi-tasking is alot easier when you're not being pummeled/recovering from being pummeled.Quote:
Be logical: what's easier to do, block Enton or outrun it? Especially when your "perfect defense" can be moved instinctually and with a mere thought? Gaara had a literal wall of sand floating near him. Protecting his body was as easy as moving his sand literally half a foot to the left, or right. It'd be different if Gaara's sand was the distance of Raikage's body when the Amaterasu was fired. That would mean the sand wouldn't have time to mount a defensive barrier. On the contrary, Gaara's sand stayed close by and thus, didn't have to try to outrun the Amaterasu.Quote:
And by Sasuke's Amaterasu not appearing on the Susanoo, I said not appearing FROM it. Those flames are not even on his Susanoo so it's not like it matters.
Being apart of Susanoo means they're only usable via Susanoo. Except we know, canonically, it's not the case. Sasuke has multiple ways of using Enton:Quote:
Create black flames with Amaterasu.
Use already created Amaterasu to shoot more flames from that already created Amaterasu.
Use the Enton Jewel that comes from the final form of his Susanoo to spawn Enton constructs.
He can NOT create Enton from Susanoo UNLESS he is firing an Amaterasu first, OR using the Enton Jewel which is thus far ONLY useable when we see the final form of his Susanoo actually revealing the jewel.
It doesn't make sense, like, at all, and I'll explain you why:Quote:
we see here that Sasuke hits the Samurai with Amaterasu, and it engulfs his whole armour.
We see here that the Samurai still has Amaterasu on his whole armour, and its quietly burning it away.
Now, you can say that Sasuke took part of the flames, but then see how these very flames completely covers Susano'o, meaning that Sasuke should've took the interity of Amaterasu's flames from the samurai, and then added some, since Susano'o > normal body dimension wise.
What you are saying is that Sasuke manipulated a quantity of Amaterasu flames with Enton bigger than the Amaterasu that hit the Samurai, still leaving him with flames all over his body.
Basically you are saying that he hit a Samurai with an Amaterasu (I'll give it a numerical valor of 1 ) , covered himself with a quantity of 1,5 and still left that Samurai with that 1.
Understand now why I'm saying it makes no sense?
And that's where you are wrong, eye pains never stopped Amaterasu, because Amaterasu, after its summoned, continues to burn until the target vanishes.Quote:
They don't vanish when the user experiences pain, otherwise the forest Itachi ignited wouldn't still burn even after Itachi died, same thing with Bee ( despite Sasuke experiencing the after effects of MS ).
If you don't believe me I'll post the links, too lazy to do that now
The only power of the three that was reduced in connection with pain on the eye or on the body is Susano'o
Then the flames would've dropped on the ground or simply stuck on Susano'o, considering they continue to burn regardlessQuote:
You don't get it.Quote:
If Enton was faster than Raikage, then it would be impossible to follow for Gaara. A Sharingan user like Madara could barely follow A with V2, Sasuke couldn't, what makes you think Gaara has comparable reflexes to those two?
Gaara effortlessy blocked them, the difference is huge.
What I meant when I said that Amaterasu is a part of Sasuke's Susano'o is not that Amaterasu generates from Susano'o, but that, since his Mangekyo eyes are linked and since Sasuke has a high affinity for Amaterasu, that Susano'o incorporated Amaterasu as a part of itself, as proved by the jewel, the sword and the whole armour on fire.Quote:
Its not like everytime he uses Enton for the jewel or the sword Sasuke uses Amaterasu then uses Enton to manipulate it, simply they are connected, and Sasuke's affinity is so great he can coat his Susano'o with Amaterasu flames, be it weapons or the skeleton armour
> Sasuke can coat Susanoo's weaps with Raiton
> Show me a panel
> No but it's logical
> Minato would beat Raikage
> Show me proof
> Raikage admitting his inferiority
> No, show manga panel !
And the best thing ever
> Enton is faster than Raikage V2
This thread is fantastic !
Prove otherwise. You HAVE to do a better job than Uchiha_Blood is currently. Seriously, the only thing I'm hearing is "it doesn't make sense" and "those flames magically grew out of Susanoo", when my claims make perfect sense if you pay attention to how Enton works. Inorder for what Uchiha_Blood is claiming to be truth we'd have to make up a brand new ability Sasuke's Susanoo has never revealed.Originally Posted by Zehahaha
So go right ahead. Explain how those flames got onto his Susanoo using previously displayed manga scans.
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Are you aware of how fire works?Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood
We'll use your quantity theorem to put this nonsense to rest:
Itachi used an Amaterasu of a quantity of 100% to try to hit Sasuke.
1% of that 100 missed Sasuke and landed on the forest outside of the Uchiha Hideout. By your logic that 1% would remain 1% because that's how fire works. But alas, that didn't happen. The tree burned. And then more trees burned. And then MORE trees burned. Eventually the 1% became 1000%. In layman's terms, the flames simply grew because that's what fire does. Grow along the object it's attempting to incinerate while incinerating it. And that's what happened with the samurai's armor. It simply made more flames while Sasuke syphoned the amount he wanted. Hell he couldn't ripped the entirety of the flames from his body save for 1 ember and it would've grown back to it's full size.
I literally can not simplify this any further.
Last edited by ninjabot; October 10, 2012 at 03:46 PM.
-Amaterasu didn't spread out
-It didn't grew at all, since it still was on the armour, burning it quietly.
As you can see, Amaterasu completely engulfed the front of the armour, and guess what it was still burning when Kankuro lifted the armour?
The front, nothing more or nothing less. Considering Amaterasu didn't grew nor spread out even when it burned Karin, your reasonement isn't all that solid