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Thread: Random Pair VS

  1. #1
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member -Ken-'s Avatar
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    Random Pair VS

    I'll go with random pair vs as a fun part. I'm not sure if this should be new thread or not, though.

    Kaidoh/Yagyuu vs Niou/Momoshiro

    Kaidoh/Niou vs Yagyuu/Momoshiro

    ?
    Last edited by -Ken-; October 21, 2012 at 02:20 PM.
    Most of the thing I post is probably assumption if it's not a fact that I support using some evidence from the manga.

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    Re: Random Pair VS (Niou, Yagyuu, Momoshiro, Kaidou)

    Obviously Niou.
    Niou can Synchro with whomever he feels like.

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    Re: Random Pair VS (Niou, Yagyuu, Momoshiro, Kaidou)

    Just going to say that it is stupid that nioh can auto synchro with people he has just met. But yeah, based on that, nioh wins all.

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    Re: Random Pair VS (Niou, Yagyuu, Momoshiro, Kaidou)

    By auto synchro I assume you mean Niou just copies whoever his partner is and I guess it's presumed that anybody can always synchro with himself. That said even if you disallow that, Niou inherits the physical abilities of whoever he clones (he can knock away #9 and #10's rackets as Kabaji but not as Tezuka) so just clone someone with extremely high physical stats (Sanada or Kintaro, for example) would give whatever team he is on a huge edge. If he can clone certain high tier moves (i.e. Yukimura's yips) that'd even be better, but there isn't enough information to know what moves he can or cannot clone. Otherwise just clone Yukimura and knock out the opposing team and that'd be the end.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member -Ken-'s Avatar
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    Re: Random Pair VS

    Hakamada/Kintarou
    vs

    Ochi/Kite

    Ochi/Kite is uber version of silver pair. Who do you think win?
    Last edited by -Ken-; October 21, 2012 at 03:48 PM.
    Most of the thing I post is probably assumption if it's not a fact that I support using some evidence from the manga.

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    Re: Random Pair VS

    Due to Hakamada's status as fodder I'll assume all of Ochi's tech work on him.

    If Hakamada cannot return Mach Serve then Ochi always wins his serve (Kintaro can only return half of the time, so it'll just be forever deuces even if Kintaro can return Mach Serve and score every single time).

    Mind Assassin would make Hakamada double fault on his serve so Hakamada would lose all his serves too.

    So Kite/Ochi is guaranteed to win half of the games before considering anything else and I don't see how they can possibly lose like this. It won't necessarily be a blowout because Mind Assassin seems to be something that kicks in only when the score is close, but ultimately Kite/Ochi can't lose by the fact that they'll always get at least half of the games.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member LetalHawk's Avatar
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    Re: Random Pair VS

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantron View Post
    Due to Hakamada's status as fodder I'll assume all of Ochi's tech work on him.

    If Hakamada cannot return Mach Serve then Ochi always wins his serve (Kintaro can only return half of the time, so it'll just be forever deuces even if Kintaro can return Mach Serve and score every single time).

    Mind Assassin would make Hakamada double fault on his serve so Hakamada would lose all his serves too.

    So Kite/Ochi is guaranteed to win half of the games before considering anything else and I don't see how they can possibly lose like this. It won't necessarily be a blowout because Mind Assassin seems to be something that kicks in only when the score is close, but ultimately Kite/Ochi can't lose by the fact that they'll always get at least half of the games.
    The fact that Kintarou's mental is pretty low will make Ochi's Mental Assasin tech perfectly work on hiim. Hakamada won't return Ochi's serve, Kintarou will take some time struggling with it. Kite with is all-court coverage with ODS will guarantee a perfect defense. Kintarou will score points with Daisharin and probably his Yama Funka serve.

    As Kite/Ochi will win half of the games, they will win. I'm unsure if Ochi's Mental Assasin technique work on both players at the same time, or like in Atobe/Niou only works on one player and cannot be used on two.

    I think that with Sukuchihou, Kite can return Vanish, or it will take some games before that happens.

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    Re: Random Pair VS

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantron View Post
    Due to Hakamada's status as fodder I'll assume all of Ochi's tech work on him.

    If Hakamada cannot return Mach Serve then Ochi always wins his serve (Kintaro can only return half of the time, so it'll just be forever deuces even if Kintaro can return Mach Serve and score every single time).

    Mind Assassin would make Hakamada double fault on his serve so Hakamada would lose all his serves too.

    So Kite/Ochi is guaranteed to win half of the games before considering anything else and I don't see how they can possibly lose like this. It won't necessarily be a blowout because Mind Assassin seems to be something that kicks in only when the score is close, but ultimately Kite/Ochi can't lose by the fact that they'll always get at least half of the games.
    Why on earth are we assuming that Kintaro can comfortably return Mach Serve???
    If Yukimura says it's hard to return then that means it should take games off of every MSer.
    The Top are likely to eventually hit it back but in Doubles, with how less frequent Ochi would serve there wouldn't be time to adapt easily.

    Mach is taking games off of both Hakamada and Kintaro.
    Kintaro's power and Vanish however would be too much I believe. So 6-4 to Tooyama/Hakamada

    ---------- Post added at 01:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:23 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by LetalHawk View Post
    I think that with Sukuchihou, Kite can return Vanish, or it will take some games before that happens.
    Nope. If Kintaro took such a heavy beating to return it, and considering Niou/Oishi VS Mutsu/Mutsu was apparently near the end, meaning Mutsu/Mutsu were near Match point, and Date/Ban were at matchpoint, then we can assume Hakamada was near match point.

    So considering Vanish almost defeated Tooyama, it's gonna be hard for Kite to be hitting it back.

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    Re: Random Pair VS

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    Why on earth are we assuming that Kintaro can comfortably return Mach Serve???
    If Yukimura says it's hard to return then that means it should take games off of every MSer.
    The Top are likely to eventually hit it back but in Doubles, with how less frequent Ochi would serve there wouldn't be time to adapt easily.

    Mach is taking games off of both Hakamada and Kintaro.
    Kintaro's power and Vanish however would be too much I believe. So 6-4 to Tooyama/Hakamada
    You misunderstand. It doesn't matter how well Kintaro can return a serve due to the rules of double. If Mach scores off Hakamada every time it is literally impossible for Ochi to lose his serve no matter what Kintaro does. I don't know if Kintaro can return Mach Serve. It seems like he should be able to, but it isn't even relevent.

    Likewise Hakamada will double fault his serve the same way Atobe did during crucial runs. Because Ochi's serve + Hakamada's serve are both guaranteed wins for Ochi/Kite team, they cannot lose since you have to win more than half of the games to win in tennis.

  12. #10
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member -Ken-'s Avatar
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    Re: Random Pair VS

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantron View Post
    You misunderstand. It doesn't matter how well Kintaro can return a serve due to the rules of double. If Mach scores off Hakamada every time it is literally impossible for Ochi to lose his serve no matter what Kintaro does. I don't know if Kintaro can return Mach Serve. It seems like he should be able to, but it isn't even relevent.

    Likewise Hakamada will double fault his serve the same way Atobe did during crucial runs. Because Ochi's serve + Hakamada's serve are both guaranteed wins for Ochi/Kite team, they cannot lose since you have to win more than half of the games to win in tennis.
    Mental Assasin only kick in during the last game of 1st round. It took time to activate. It might be be more than half the game at that point.
    Most of the thing I post is probably assumption if it's not a fact that I support using some evidence from the manga.

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    Re: Random Pair VS

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    Mental Assasin only kick in during the last game of 1st round. It took time to activate. It might be be more than half the game at that point.
    I assume it only activates when the score is close with the game on the line because it'd be pretty weird if someone chokes due to pressure when the score is 0-0.

    There seems to a rather significant gap between G10 and below. Kite can play against a G10 so he's no worse than Hakamada. Kintaro is probably G10 tier but I don't see him moving into the upper tier (say, G5+). He's probably better than either Kite or Ochi but not by a significant amount, while Kite/Ochi are better than Hakamada possibly by a significant amount. At worst Ochi/Kite certainly don't appear to be underdogs in base stats even though their special moves might be a bit lacking outside of Mach Serve.

    Here's the thing though, Ochi will always win his serve.

    Kintaro will probably always win his serve too (probably the best player out of these 4, plus he has a new serve).

    So the only games that are up to contest are Hakamada's serve and Kite's serve.

    In recent NPOT we see that Konomi actually remembered that the serving team has a huge advantage for having the serve. Given that there's no obvious significant difference in both team's power we'll just assume they hold their serves. That means at some point Hakamada will have to serve at either 4-4, 5-4, 5-5, or 6-5. Even if you say 4-4 isn't a pressure situation, the other 3 definitely are so he'll always drop his game there and depending on who was ahead at that time it could easily end the match. If he serves at 4-4 and win, then it'll end up as 6-6 taking a standard 'everyone holds serve' model. This also assumes Kintaro is completely unaffected by Mental Assassin.

    Now at a tiebreaker you'd have:

    Hakamada will double fault all his serves.
    Ochi will always score on Hakamada on his serve.

    That means out of every 8 points the the Ochi/Kite team is already guaranteed to get 3 points. If they manage just one more point they can't possibly lose the tiebreaker. I don't see how Ochi/Kite will fail to get 0 out of 5 points, since 3 of those are their serves (Ochi serve to Kintaro + 2 serves for Kite).

    To be fair I actually think Kintaro/Hakamada team is stronger overall, but Ochi has the serving game locked up by his Mach Serve + Mental Assassin. The guaranteed double fault versus weak player plus the ability to hold his serve means it doesn't matter how badly they play everywhere else, they'd still never lose the game.

    ---------- Post added at 07:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:16 PM ----------

    As an aside, POT has this strange irrelevence of the big serve even though in such a world the 'big serve' guys would be even more powerful than their real life counterparts. In real life the serve is the hardest shot to return. It's not clear if this is true in POT but serves are certainly no easier to counter than any move. So if you've a guy who can only do big serve and nothing else, it's no worse than a guy who has only one big move and nothing else. But here's the important part: serves cannot be canceled out by most techs. Take an all-powerful tech like Rai or World of Ice. Both can still be stopped by a tech (TPhantom/TZone). But you can't stop Mach Serve the same way because you don't even have the chance to hit the ball yet. If an opponent's tech requires a certain condition (Fuji being the best example) you can always try to avoid creating such situations, but there's no way you can prevent the opponent from serving.

    It's honestly totally backwards that almost all the big serve guys are on doubles. If you can always hold your serve, it's physically impossible to lose a singles match but you can defiintely lose a doubles match even if you never lose your serve.

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    Re: Random Pair VS

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantron View Post
    You misunderstand. It doesn't matter how well Kintaro can return a serve due to the rules of double. If Mach scores off Hakamada every time it is literally impossible for Ochi to lose his serve no matter what Kintaro does. I don't know if Kintaro can return Mach Serve. It seems like he should be able to, but it isn't even relevent.

    Likewise Hakamada will double fault his serve the same way Atobe did during crucial runs. Because Ochi's serve + Hakamada's serve are both guaranteed wins for Ochi/Kite team, they cannot lose since you have to win more than half of the games to win in tennis.
    You misunderstood. You just said Kintaro could return Mach serve half of the time. That statement can't be right going by what Shiraishi and Yuki implied.

    Why on earth should Kintaro be able to?? Clone Technque is for Illusionary shots. Not fast shots.
    Shot's that have been simply hit by a player with much more technique than him can't be handled with just Clone Technique.

    Kintaro will also Double Fault in Mental Pressure. Not just Hakamada. It's not like Kintaro has been shown to have a High Mental at all. His game plan against Hakamada was pathetic and it made me realize he is just an idiot with great speed, strength and stamina.

    Yes Hakamada and Ochi have top class serves and a definete points for both.
    Kintaro > Kite will be the difference @Ken.

    ---------- Post added at 09:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:47 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantron View Post
    Hakamada will double fault all his serves.
    Ochi will always score on Hakamada on his serve.
    He will definetely always score against Kintaro.
    If Tezuka!Niou can't hit it back Kintaro isn't doing it anytime soon.

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    Re: Random Pair VS

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    You misunderstood. You just said Kintaro could return Mach serve half of the time. That statement can't be right going by what Shiraishi and Yuki implied.

    Why on earth should Kintaro be able to?? Clone Technque is for Illusionary shots. Not fast shots.
    Shot's that have been simply hit by a player with much more technique than him can't be handled with just Clone Technique.

    Kintaro will also Double Fault in Mental Pressure. Not just Hakamada. It's not like Kintaro has been shown to have a High Mental at all. His game plan against Hakamada was pathetic and it made me realize he is just an idiot with great speed, strength and stamina.

    Yes Hakamada and Ochi have top class serves and a definete points for both.
    Kintaro > Kite will be the difference @Ken.

    ---------- Post added at 09:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:47 AM ----------


    He will definetely always score against Kintaro.
    If Tezuka!Niou can't hit it back Kintaro isn't doing it anytime soon.
    My 'half of the time' refers to rules, as in, by the rules of double, Kintaro can return at most half of Ochi's serve (Hakamada has to return the other half). That is, it'd always be Ochi to Kintaro, then Ochi to Hakamada, etc. That is what I mean by "Kintaro can only return half of the time". If Ochi always scores on Hakamada, then regardless of what Kintaro does when he's receiving at worst it'll be perpetually alternate between deuce and advantage server.

    Kintaro probably won't be able to return the serve initially and he'll choke on Mental Pressure initially too but given his character as the backup main character he might eventually find a way to break it. But it doesn't matter because his partner, Hakamada, will absolutely get no such bailouts and since Hakamada must serve and must receive half of Ochi's serves, this alone prevents their team from winning no matter how strong Kintaro is.

    ---------- Post added at 08:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:19 PM ----------

    In fact there is only one scenario where Hakamada/Kintaro can win, assuming that there's absolutely no way they'll be able to blow out Kite/Ochi. It'll have to start with Hakamada serving, so he'll serve on 4-4 (assuming all hold their serve, due to a lack of any other information) and you can argue at that point he's somehow not pressured (unlikely, but 4-4 is at least better than say, 5-4) and win his serve. Then it'll go into a tiebreaker. As mentioned before out of 8 points there are 3 points guaranteed to win by Ochi/Kite: Ochi's serve to Hakadama, and 2XHakamada's serves. But, at this point if Kintaro pulls a TnK level power up it is conceiveable he wins the other 5 points single handedly and thus win in a tiebreaker.

    Note that even if Kintaro has TnK it won't matter in terms of winning any game that isn't a tiebreaker because TnK can't stop his partner from choking, and TnK doesn't allow Kintaro to return a serve for Hakamada (that'd be illegal), so Hakamada's serve (while under Mental Pressure) and Ochi's serve is still guaranteed win for Kite/Ochi even if Kintaro obtains TnK class abilities.

  16. #14
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member -Ken-'s Avatar
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    Re: Random Pair VS

    It's been a while, so here's another random match up.

    Akutsu/Kintarou vs Oni/Irie
    Most of the thing I post is probably assumption if it's not a fact that I support using some evidence from the manga.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Random Pair VS

    Oni and Irie take this no problem. Oni can destroy Kintarou. Kintarou is known to suck at doubles. Akutsu is good but he hasn't shown anything super special yet. Irie on the other hand has proven to be amazing. Irie and Oni would be a great pair. Kintarou and Akutsu wouldn't work together well and would lose. This would be a blow out.

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