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Thread: Did Togashi Foreshadow Gon's transformation ?

  1. #31
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: Did Togashi Foreshadow Gon's transformation ?

    Quote Originally Posted by futurefrog View Post
    The real thing is, would Ging have bothered to appear had he known Gon was walking around town freely? No I don't think so. Ging has said many times that he does not want to meet Gon, suddenly when Gon seemingly has no way to meet him, Ging is at ease and freely moving within the same city as him. Ging wouldn't come to the Zodiac if he knew there was a chance of Gon running into him. I'm guessing he thought he could get in and solve things with the Election before Gon got healed.

    How is Alluka too convenient? She is hardly Dragonballs as she has a major drawback and her life is constantly in danger. Her ability has a restriction, a very specific one, only Killua can use it freely, everyone else must suffer severe consequences. This is an unconscious vow that she has placed upon her inherent nen ability. It makes sense and works within the structure of nen that Togashi has created. Some say that Killua doesnt have to pay a price to use Alluka's power, yes he does, the price of having to constantly protect her from those who seek to use her. She is constantly living in danger, there is no way that is convenient at all both literally and plot-wise.
    Let's say Goku arrived to take care of Pitou during the Ant arc so none of the transformation stuff was ever needed. The Election arc still would've happened. Pariston would still do exactly the same thing. Now we know people can't just randomly barge in the room the Zodiacs are meeting at, so Ging doesn't necessarily have to meet Gon right away, though we should expect to see Mr. Panda more often as a precaution. Hisoka missed meeting Ging during the vote casting period, so Ging could even be really fast to avoid being spotted there too.

    But there are two major All-Hunter gatherings he has to be present (the one Leorio punched him, and the final voting round). Are you saying if Gon was perfectly alive and fine then Ging would've hid himself during those two crucial gatherings where he must be present? That'd give Pariston free reign to do whatever he wants, and remember at that point, not even Ging really knew Pariston had planned. Given how much the rest of the Zodiac feared Pariston, it wouldn't be a stretch to say if Ging wasn't present maybe everyone just gets killed by Pariston somehow. Is Ging willing to take that much of a risk just to avoid seeing his son? Because if not, then he sure isn't going to be avoiding him and I'd hope Ging cared enough about the association to stick around in the two crucial gatherings.

    There's no point to talk about the 'pay 3 demands back' version of Alluka because that wasn't the version that saved Gon anyway. We can assume this is because there is probably no way to actually do the consequent 3 demands had such a wish been used. That version is reasonable but it wasn't the one used, so it's not relevent.

    For the freebie version of Alluka, the notion that this power has a weakness is absurd. The first wish Killua can make is 'Constantly banish anyone with ill will toward Alluka or me." In fact, this wish would just be a combination of being able to read people's thoughts (Pakunoda can do this) plus a Banish effect (Razor can do this, at least in a limited form). Since Alluka's is capable of doing things nobody can possibly do in HXH, using a power that is just a combination of existing power is trivial. Once this wish is established nobody can possibly harm Killua or Alulka, he then has all the time he needs to figure out what to do. He can erase people's memory if needed, or change people's personality, or whatever he deems necessary to get the job done. Yes I get that there's this whole bit about how he doesn't want to take advantage of his free wishes, but surely he is aware that Ilumi was going to try to control him to get free wishes. Why would he need to be afraid of this when he can simply wish for "Make everyone besides me who knew about Alluka's power forget Alluka has such a power?" Is one selfish wish worse than just letting Ilumi control Killua and make as many selfish wish as he wants?

    There are also many variants like 'teleport Alluka and I to middle of nowhere", and then teleport Gon to him for example, and nobody would be able to track them. He can also just wish to become the strongest guy in HXH and then he'd have nothing to fear from Ilumi. And keep in mind he was already planning on using a free wish anyway to cure Gon, because it seems to be heavily implied that there was no way Killua could've repaid the price for curing Gon the standard way (otherwise he should've done that, if the goal is not to abuse any wishes). He ended up using quite a few free wishes anyway, so it's not like he's refusing to use it at all costs, so why not just start with a wish that definitely gets the job done?

    ---------- Post added at 12:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:35 AM ----------

    As an aside a long time ago there was a really good 'fake info' that has a confrontation between Ilumi and Killua over Alluka, and Ilumi says something along these lines:

    "You say you want to protect Alluka from our selfish wishes, but it is you who make the most number of selfish wishes! I told you that you do not have the rights to have a friend, and likewise you do not have the rights to Alluka!"

    If you think about it, Killua must have experimented with Alluka's power. How does he know Alluka can teleport others if he didn't try it before? If he tried to teleport Ilumi away and it didn't work, then Ilumi would immediately try to subdue him and then get his infinite wishes if he succeeded, so he's taking a huge amount of risk and he must have known ahead of time that Alluka can teleport others. Even at the very end, his wish was that Nanika only fulfill HIS wishes. I always thought it'd make far more sense if Killua's limitation on wishes is because he feels guilt from abusing this power more than anyone else, but that's obviously not what happened.
    Last edited by Phantron; October 01, 2012 at 12:39 AM.

  2. #32
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member mrsticky005's Avatar
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    Re: Did Togashi Foreshadow Gon's transformation ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantron View Post
    I'd hope Ging has enough big picture awareness to come to stop Pariston (even though in the end it didn't really matter) whether Gon was alive, dead, or in a coma. Gon's transformation has nothing to do with Ging showed up, and the whole notion that Ging somehow knew Gon wasn't going to die is rather bogus unless he has the ability to see the future (not impossible but no indication toward such things yet, as he clearly was wrong on the ultimate motive for Pariston).

    It's pointless to speculate what side effect that may or may not exist with Alluka's power but if there's supposed to be something it'd obviously be that Gon and Killua gets separated forever though I see the friendship as a one way abuse against Killua so I'm not even sure if you can call this a bad thing. It's pretty clear as long as Killua has Alluka he doesn't need anyone else.

    At any rate Alluka being way too convenient and Alluka saving Gon are two different issues. Since Gon obviously has to recover somehow unless the point of HXH is that life sucks even if you're the main character, the fact that someone or something eventually saved him is not up to debate. It simply must happen. If, as originally alleged, that saving Gon requires paying back 3 nearly impossible demands or thousands of people would die, that'd not be an unreasonable price to pay for Gon's recovery. So the fact that Gon is saved is sort of cheesy but it's understandable. Even if Alluka never existed, it'd not be unreasonable to say use some kind of power similar to Breath of Archangel to keep his body healthy while his friends slowly work on figuring out to remove/neutralize/whatever the aura that's the source of the problem.

    But the fact Alluka is too convenient (make whatever wish you want if you're Killua, no question asked) is a huge problem in terms of balance of power. The fact that Killua naturally used this power to save Gon is a symptom of having dragonballs but Gon is not at fault for being the recipient of such windfall.

    I'm not speculating. I'm just waiting to see what Togashi does.

    I do think that as of right now it DOES seem like Killua can use Alluka's powers with absolutely no consequence. Things do appear that way.
    But I don't see them staying that way. I think there's more to Alluka than Togashi is letting us know. Or even if Alluka is a dragonball...

    Who says there isn't ANOTHER Alluka?

    Say Illumi gets Alluka 2.0 and wishes for Alluka Original to die or something like that.
    It would not be the best story line but it is just one possibility. It could go all sorts of ways.

    So again I'm waiting to see what Togashi does. To me the Election Arc and Alluka arc were just a prologue for something bigger.

  3. #33
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    Re: Did Togashi Foreshadow Gon's transformation ?

    Quote Originally Posted by mrsticky005 View Post
    I'm not speculating. I'm just waiting to see what Togashi does.

    I do think that as of right now it DOES seem like Killua can use Alluka's powers with absolutely no consequence. Things do appear that way.
    But I don't see them staying that way. I think there's more to Alluka than Togashi is letting us know. Or even if Alluka is a dragonball...

    Who says there isn't ANOTHER Alluka?

    Say Illumi gets Alluka 2.0 and wishes for Alluka Original to die or something like that.
    It would not be the best story line but it is just one possibility. It could go all sorts of ways.

    So again I'm waiting to see what Togashi does. To me the Election Arc and Alluka arc were just a prologue for something bigger.
    Well here's where the hiatus really hurts Togashi. If he actually had some better explanation for Alluka we sure aren't going to see it because HXH is on a break. Or he could just not talk about Alluka and Killua for a while and then we can figure okay there really wasn't a good explanation for Alluka but that's why we don't see them around. Even in the worst case where Ilumi picked up Alluka 2.0 from the Dark Continent and we start have a battle of wishes we can at least say 'okay it appears Dragonballs are very common in HXH so maybe using them early on wasn't that out of line".

    But of course we have absolutely nothing and I don't think Togashi gets the benefit of doubt that's caused by his own laziness. It is said that winning in pro sports causes your fans to forgive whatever pass transgression you may have had. In Togashi's case just having an active serialization is usually sufficient for forgiveness, but we don't even have that, so the fans aren't likely to forgive anything until HXH resumes.

  4. #34
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member mrsticky005's Avatar
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    Re: Did Togashi Foreshadow Gon's transformation ?

    Also I'm of the opinion that Gon has not got his nen abilities back. I think they are gone for good. But I could be wrong.

    Anyhow I think you can look at Alluka in two ways

    either


    1. Togashi wrote himself into a corner with Macho Gon and then Deus Ex Alluka

    or

    2. Togashi purposely went Macho Gon to usher in Alluka and take the story to the next level somehow.

    ---------- Post added at 12:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:25 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantron View Post
    Well here's where the hiatus really hurts Togashi. If he actually had some better explanation for Alluka we sure aren't going to see it because HXH is on a break. Or he could just not talk about Alluka and Killua for a while and then we can figure okay there really wasn't a good explanation for Alluka but that's why we don't see them around. Even in the worst case where Ilumi picked up Alluka 2.0 from the Dark Continent and we start have a battle of wishes we can at least say 'okay it appears Dragonballs are very common in HXH so maybe using them early on wasn't that out of line".

    But of course we have absolutely nothing so no I don't think Togashi gets the benefit of doubt that's caused by his own laziness. It is said that winning in pro sports causes your fans to forgive whatever pass transgression you may have had. In Togashi's case just having an active serialization is usually sufficient for forgiveness, but we don't even have that, so the fans aren't likely to forgive anything until HXH resumes.

    The hiatus DEFINITELY hurts Togashi. I ain't disagreeing with you there.

    I'm not giving Togashi the benefit of the doubt for Togashi's sake but for my own. Maybe you're right about all this and there is no better explanation.
    I'll be disappointed but I don't think it would necessarily ruin the story. Still, I don't really particularly like waiting for the next chapters with such a
    pessimistic view. I much rather be wrong about their being some unknown set back then to be waiting for 341 thinking that there is no hope left.

    But that's just me.

  5. #35
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    Re: Did Togashi Foreshadow Gon's transformation ?

    Quote Originally Posted by mrsticky005 View Post
    Also I'm of the opinion that Gon has not got his nen abilities back. I think they are gone for good. But I could be wrong.

    Anyhow I think you can look at Alluka in two ways

    either


    1. Togashi wrote himself into a corner with Macho Gon and then Deus Ex Alluka

    or

    2. Togashi purposely went Macho Gon to usher in Alluka and take the story to the next level somehow.
    Gon already escaped from fate worse than death so whether he got away with some minor defects doesn't make the action more or less justified.

    I actually think Togashi just writes on whatever topic he wants. You got GI because Togashi wanted to write about a MMORPG (it's certainly better than any of the weak attempts other mangas have made trying to write about MMORPGs). You got the Ant arc because Togashi likes writing about super powerful insectoid creatures. I wouldn't be surprised if Alluka showed up just because Togashi decided he want to write about a supernatural all powerful entity. And that's fine. If he keeps on writing it kinds of solves everything. If whatever he writes next is good you can say let's just pretend that the Election arc never happened even if you hated it. If whatever he writes is even worse you can at least say that HXH is going down the drain and it's time to bail and stop wasting your time.

    Instead he's not writing anything right now so you really can't say anything positive about it because there is nothing new, and you can't even cut your losses because there's no indication that HXH is going to become something like Bleach and you should quit while you're ahead. Chances are whatever he writes next is going to be something pretty good because he's very solid on the fundamentals so if he's not doing some weird topic like Alluka or Ants then it's a pretty safe bet it'll be good. But, that along doesn't mean everyone can put up with his terrible work ethics so don't expect positive things said about HXH from guys who are tired of his work ethics. I don't exactly hate his work ethics, but certainly I have nothing positive to say about Togashi's work ethics so I'm not going to give HXH any slack until HXH resumes. If he resumes writing I'm quite willing to forgive whatever plot holes there might be, but only when he resumes writing, not before.

    ---------- Post added at 01:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:39 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mrsticky005 View Post
    The hiatus DEFINITELY hurts Togashi. I ain't disagreeing with you there.

    I'm not giving Togashi the benefit of the doubt for Togashi's sake but for my own. Maybe you're right about all this and there is no better explanation.
    I'll be disappointed but I don't think it would necessarily ruin the story. Still, I don't really particularly like waiting for the next chapters with such a
    pessimistic view. I much rather be wrong about their being some unknown set back then to be waiting for 341 thinking that there is no hope left.

    But that's just me.
    Well I don't think Togashi necessarily needs to explain everything. Looking at the last part we have, it seems likely next part will involve Kurapika, Jiro, and probably Spiders by association. Let's say Killua and Alluka just never shows up again because Alluka's power would obviously render any conflict meaningless, and this is an implicit sign that Togashi obviously didn't care for Alluka's power making sense or not.

    And that's perfectly fine. If whatever this new arc is good, nobody would care that the last arc had problems. He doesn't owe fans an explanation for the previous arcs, but he owes fans the new stuff. I have absolutely no problem if he just wrote about Alluka because he felt like it with no attempt to justify it, as long as he continues writing other new stuff.

  6. #36
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member mrsticky005's Avatar
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    Re: Did Togashi Foreshadow Gon's transformation ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantron View Post
    Gon already escaped from fate worse than death so whether he got away with some minor defects doesn't make the action more or less justified.

    I actually think Togashi just writes on whatever topic he wants. You got GI because Togashi wanted to write about a MMORPG (it's certainly better than any of the weak attempts other mangas have made trying to write about MMORPGs). You got the Ant arc because Togashi likes writing about super powerful insectoid creatures. I wouldn't be surprised if Alluka showed up just because Togashi decided he want to write about a supernatural all powerful entity. And that's fine. If he keeps on writing it kinds of solves everything. If whatever he writes next is good you can say let's just pretend that the Election arc never happened even if you hated it. If whatever he writes is even worse you can at least say that HXH is going down the drain and it's time to bail and stop wasting your time.

    Instead he's not writing anything right now so you really can't say anything positive about it because there is nothing new, and you can't even cut your losses because there's no indication that HXH is going to become something like Bleach and you should quit while you're ahead. Chances are whatever he writes next is going to be something pretty good because he's very solid on the fundamentals so if he's not doing some weird topic like Alluka or Ants then it's a pretty safe bet it'll be good. But, that along doesn't mean everyone can put up with his terrible work ethics so don't expect positive things said about HXH from guys who are tired of his work ethics. I don't exactly hate his work ethics, but certainly I have nothing positive to say about Togashi's work ethics so I'm not going to give HXH any slack until HXH resumes. If he resumes writing I'm quite willing to forgive whatever plot holes there might be, but only when he resumes writing, not before.

    ---------- Post added at 01:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:39 AM ----------



    Well I don't think Togashi necessarily needs to explain everything. Looking at the last part we have, it seems likely next part will involve Kurapika, Jiro, and probably Spiders by association. Let's say Killua and Alluka just never shows up again because Alluka's power would obviously render any conflict meaningless, and this is an implicit sign that Togashi obviously didn't care for Alluka's power making sense or not.

    And that's perfectly fine. If whatever this new arc is good, nobody would care that the last arc had problems. He doesn't owe fans an explanation for the previous arcs, but he owes fans the new stuff. I have absolutely no problem if he just wrote about Alluka because he felt like it with no attempt to justify it, as long as he continues writing other new stuff.

    Well I think we can both agree Togashi should kept back to work already! XD

    Also I like Bleach so that doesn't really worry me. Besides that...I just don't see HxH ever becoming Bleach in the first place.

    As I said before even if you're right about Alluka I don't think it will "ruin" HxH.

    Though if it starts to become a track record and Togashi is just using magical happiness as an excuse for lazy writing then I might reconsider.
    But I don't think we've reached that point yet.

    But again...Togashi REALLY needs to get back to work. Sure hope he's not waiting for the anime to catch up.

  7. #37
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    Re: Did Togashi Foreshadow Gon's transformation ?

    Not everyone likes everything about any particular manga. Even if there was never a good explanation for Alluka it'd just be one part of HXH I like less compared to the other parts. I've noticed people who are critical of HXH (including me) tends to think it is very good but still slightly overrated. For the most part you can see a consistent pattern that as long as HXH is continously on serial you won't see any serious attack beyond the normal nitpicking. If HXH goes on the hiatus then that's when you send in the hounds. One of the biggest HXH boards I go to has just spam now, so even the hounds left the board.

    Note that a lot of bashing for HXH is pretty much preemptive strike against hiatus. That is, anyone who has been following HXH for a while is pretty sure we'll be hit with a major hiatus soon, so it's more of "This is all we get before another major hiatus?" After getting burned by hiatus multiple times, there's a considerable number of people who factors that in critcism. That is, if you're say a Kurapika stalwart you can be easily satisfied by his return, but because you also know that it might be 3 years before you see him again you factor that in and even though it seems like Kurapika ought to be back in part 341, you figure it's more like 3 years later, not one part later, so you're more likely to have a reaction of "This is what we get instead of Kurapika?" It's perhaps unfair but it's definitely very real.

  8. #38
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member mrsticky005's Avatar
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    Re: Did Togashi Foreshadow Gon's transformation ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantron View Post
    Not everyone likes everything about any particular manga. Even if there was never a good explanation for Alluka it'd just be one part of HXH I like less compared to the other parts. I've noticed people who are critical of HXH (including me) tends to think it is very good but still slightly overrated. For the most part you can see a consistent pattern that as long as HXH is continously on serial you won't see any serious attack beyond the normal nitpicking. If HXH goes on the hiatus then that's when you send in the hounds. One of the biggest HXH boards I go to has just spam now, so even the hounds left the board.

    Note that a lot of bashing for HXH is pretty much preemptive strike against hiatus. That is, anyone who has been following HXH for a while is pretty sure we'll be hit with a major hiatus soon, so it's more of "This is all we get before another major hiatus?" After getting burned by hiatus multiple times, there's a considerable number of people who factors that in critcism. That is, if you're say a Kurapika stalwart you can be easily satisfied by his return, but because you also know that it might be 3 years before you see him again you factor that in and even though it seems like Kurapika ought to be back in part 341, you figure it's more like 3 years later, not one part later, so you're more likely to have a reaction of "This is what we get instead of Kurapika?" It's perhaps unfair but it's definitely very real.
    True. I dunno maybe I'm too lazy to be that critical. I don't think every arc is perfect though. But at the same time I can't exactly complain.
    It's like eating fresh baked cookies they may not be the perfect fresh baked cookies but I just got no complaints against fresh baked cookies.

    Yeah I'm trying to avoid that mindset. Though in any case I usually find that by the time I read something in the volumes I like it a lot better.

    For example I didn't like Sasuke vs the Kages in Naruto when it came out weekly but I think in the volumes it's more enjoyable for me.

    Well I can't blame anyone who's been through all the hiatuses for wanting to bash.While I've been through a few hiatuses I haven't
    experienced all of them. I dunno maybe I'm just the lucky one who got into HxH at the right time? Or maybe I'll end up hating Togashi and his manga? I dunno.


    Well in any case I'm getting kinda bored here. I dunno if you're interested but I made a bunch of battle threads in the hunter association section.
    If not that's ok. But really I just want to see what people's thoughts are on the battles.

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