The only exception I can think of right now to your Reinforcement and recovery explanation is Machi's use of her nen threads to repair Hisoka's dismembered arms. I always assumed that Dr.Blythe used Manipulation because that was more consistent with the school Pitou used most, along with its use of the tendrils it operates with. But that doesn't make Reinforcement out of question, since a little movement can help with the overall recovery process -- YAY FOR NEN SCIENCE?
I think the fact that Pitou took a great deal and very disproportionate amount of time to heal Komugi is your best point, I forgot this. The Hunter's association may not have had healers for Gon, this actually seems like a rare skill. Pufu and Yupi's estimation of Pitou's ability is questionable and made in desperation, even though they are the best people to know what the process is capable of. In the end, I think I'd have to agree with you that Dr.Blythe is primarily using Reinforcement.
Pitou really seemed to have chosen to make Dr.Blythe on a whim, after deciding he could simply "fix" Kite's corpse. I never heard of Pufu being able to "reset" abilities, I thought he was just very good at analyzing people and giving them Hatsu ideas with which they would have high aptitudes in learning. I'm unsure why Pitou wouldn't consult Pufu though, speculations aside. Also, I suppose Manipulation can be used to give you some automation and stability in combat, respective examples being reflexes and accuracy. Accuracy is good, but predictable automatic reflexes could backfire. I'd have been more impressed with Pitou's combat mastery for Manipulation was if he was capable of moving his Ko at exact locations on his body at high speeds with great accuracy, even though it still wouldn't match the same Ko from Gon.
You're making it more apparent to me that I'm disappointed by the choices of the ants, now that Pitou (whimsical) has been mentioned, Yupi and Pufu also both have mental shortcomings. At least they were more interesting to me than the captains.
Last edited by Half The Sky; October 06, 2012 at 02:27 AM. Reason: dat bad spelling
Cheetu made an ability that can never be used again if he's caught in the game of hide & seek. Normally this would be a crippling restriction if caught, but when Morel caught him he says he'll just get a new ability instead. This implies Pufu has the ability to reset your learning limit. It can't be the case that anybody can just make a bunch of 'once in a lifetime' ability and keep on learn new ones, or you can pretty easily come up with a bunch of unstoppable abilities with the 'once in a lifetime' restriction, if you were able to simply learn newer moves after you used up your 'once in a lifetime' moves.
Machi's Transformation type is only one away from Reinforcement, and her level of healing is not the same as regeneration, which is what Pitou's is. For example after she put Hisoka's arm back together she warned him to not do any vigorous activities. On the other hand there's a clear implication that after Pitou's done fixing you, you can immediately go back to going 100%. The 'regeneration' effect Pitou does comes from Reinforcement.
Pitou started out learning this ability on a whim, but because Pufu can reset abilities, the fact that he didn't just let anyone else (anyone else is better than him at using Reinforcement amongst Royals due to school type) learn it likely a matter of loyalty. That is, somebody has to be able to heal Meryem and for whatever reason Yupi and Pufu didn't get that role. I guess part of it might be that since Pitou seems to have the highest mastery of application of Aura (far greater En radius than the other two Royals), it could be the fact that he is capable of the greatest effect on Reinforcement school even at a severe penalty.
We know he can pretty much fix anyone no matter what kind of wound they have as long as they're still alive (he can fix Meryem after he got blown up) so perhaps the other two Royals cannot master Aura to this level, even though they (especially Yupi) will expand far less Aura to accomplish the task. However, since the Royals only live to serve Meryem the fact that Pitou pretty much killed his future learning ability isn't a concern. We can assume Dr. Blythe uses Materialization and probably Manipulation too. Pufu talks about having no need for Pitou to create Meryem's army after he decided memories are useless for human soldiers. This implies Pitou is better overall even at Manipulation than Pufu (Pufu cannot manipulate someone's memories) despite Pufu's natural school is Manipulation.
I always thought Pitou's role is supposed to be the leader of the Royals. He is entrusted with the most important tasks (protect Komugi). I figure his defeat is not because he stupidly picked some bad abilities, but that he exists to die for Meryem so none of his abilities were chosen with his self-preservation in mind. Uber Gon is unlikely to defeat Yupi (hard to imagine any human can out muscle a Reinforcement type Royal) and his attacks would have no effect on Pufu (Pufu's clones seem immune to any attack that doesn't carry a special property, like electricity), but Uber Gon handily defeated Pitou and I don't think it's because he's a lot weaker than the other two.
Pitou seems to use Manipulation similar to Shalunark's autopilot ability. The puppet behind him can allow his body to move in a way that'd be physically impossible, but he'd literally be pulling his own body in destructive ways to pull off that feat. At any rate such techniques cannot possibly top a Reinforcement technique of simply making yourself stronger, as otherwise this would mean Manipulation user can beat Reinforcement user in a straight power match. Given that Pitou is capable of Manipulation on a massive scale, surely he is capable of basic manipulation stuff like controlling a single opponent via something. The only explanation is that he has already learned such complicated techniques (especially given Dr. Blythe is completely opposite of his natural type) that he has no room left to learn even simple techniques.
Last edited by Phantron; October 06, 2012 at 03:06 AM.
I know I'm always saying Togashi foreshadowed this and he foreshadowed that, but... is it just me or do these two pics look like there are " ROSES " in the background. ( The quality is crappy. Looks better if you have the actual volume )
the arc of formichimera is interesting but too long. In my opinion this is his fault. Personally I loved the volume 21 and 22.... because you see the spiders * _ *
The arc formichimere is also important for the growth of Gon and Killua .... During Yorkshin only Kurapika was really strong ..
Last edited by bambinarubata; October 16, 2012 at 01:12 AM.
Other than the outright obvious reason (hiatus,art) ,I think it could be the fact that many didn't like the ants being so strong and the way the plot resolve itself at the end.
One of the reason why I like HxH so much is the power system.It's a lot more consistent and you don't get people who are ridiculously strong and there is a possibility that stronger opponents can actually be defeated.And no random power up to save the day!
But when the ant arc started, you suddenly have Pitou (who is not even a year old) defeating Kaito and possibly stronger than Netero (the strongest man alive). Not only that, all the high ranking ants are able to master nen so easily and in a short time too. It does sound kinda ridiculous when you think about it. I know it has been explained that because the queen ants consumed a lot human and as such blah blah... But it makes the people who spend years after years training to perfect their nen look so useless. The power system pretty much went off balance.
Gon blatant random powerup to defeat Pitou.(The first in this series) Even though he did pay with his life to obtain such power,a deus ex machina took place (Nanika and Killua being able to bypass the backlash of the wish) and he came out of it completely fine.
Kaito being not dead and reincarnated.I really don't know what to say about it...
Personally The chimera ant arc was my favorite because of his intensity, and the way it was unpredictable. Was it perfect? Of course not, but i still found it fuc... great!
So i won't even argue about what some of the readers think disappointing, it's a matter of perception and personal expectations, we can't help it, everyone has his own sensiibility and we should respect that.
However, the way I see it, despite what we think hxh should be, this universe belongs to Togashi, he's the only one who trully knows what hxh is all about, what this fiction is all about, the universe rules and limits, etc.
So as long as he stays consistent with the rules he had already established throughout the story i don't see what we can really reproach him. Again i'm talking about a rethorical aspect, a logical point of view. Concerning the way some might feel about this arc, or togashi's plot choice there's nothing to be said.But i find unfair to blame him for doing things we didn't excpect.
Yet, i barely see where Togashi would have failed in with the concistancy . Even if i was surprised to see so many beasts and didn't expect it quite frankly, while i was used to humans antagonists and found it perfectly handled this way at that time (genthru , kururo....) , i didn't see any major inconstancy.
-The power scale was still very consistent , for example despite his overwhelming aura and the fact that his ken was virtually unbreakable, every single one of the hunter he faced could stand in front of yupi, for god sake he dind't even touhced kirua, and if knuckle hadn't canceled his ability (morau would be dead......but yupi too). The hatsu , the strategies were still the most important factor deciding the outcome of a fight.
Alluka 's ability are strictly reserved for others persons purposes, and very restricted. Kirua being the only exception doesn't want to use him/her like an object and considers her happiness and safety as a priority , i personnaly thinks that this is for this exact same reason that he's granted with such an access (because he is the least one to use it for his own sake regardless of alluka's fate, and the only one who loves her and would put himself in danger to protect her). Kirua is even reluctant to send Tsubone to the zoldick estate.
Moreover we've already seen in GI significant healing powers, wich explain that gon has still currently his two hands.....
-There were beasts since the begining.
-Plot wise, that was very well put together. Togashi deliberately built Meruem so he was perceived as unbeatable. The bomb wasn't an easy way out, since nothing forced him to make Meruem stronger after the explosion , and since we know thanks to gon and the comments made by Pito that granted an extreme oath and restriction Meruem Could have been killed before his rebirth, solely using nen.
- Pariston was causing trouble inside the association, affecting the effectiveness of the hunter mission (zetoh ).
-The hunters needed to lower the losses and collateral damage.
-Military engines aren't effective against such powerhouses. Kirua wiping out alone the military forces of east goruto being a good example of that.
I think that people tend to under estimate Nétéro 's role in the strategy used. Knowing that:
1) Pito en was ridiculous
2)Pito controled the military forces
3) The speed of the royal guards and meruem
I conclude they could have escape an usual approach
4) They were lacking experience, They needed to learn how to play shoji, gunji, etc, it isn't unthinkable that they didn't know about that specific bomb, and again it was hiden in the corpse of an opponant who had isolated Meruem previously.
Nétero talked about a possible sacrifice since the early stage of the mission
Lauching the rose would have killed or exposed the very citizens they were trying to save and that may not have been enough to effectively touch him. They needed to isolate him, and to approach him so the process was hugely important in order to succed.
Last edited by Mylesime; October 16, 2012 at 01:22 PM.
The Ants do not start off at the same level as humans. It's like saying any human is faster than the fastest snail no matter how much a snail trains at speed so humans have hack-like powers. It can be inferred that Royal Guard talent is typical of a Royal Guard. Had there been more Royal Guards they'd probably all be just as powerful as the 3 we've seen. So that part is acceptable.
The Ants clearly are aware of politics and technology. You can see that they've controls over the presidental bunker and whatnot so of course they know how to deal with high tech weapons. You can make an argument like only Netero can detonate the Rose at point blank range because anyone else would've died before they even get that close, even though with the tacked on poison it's not even necessary to explode the Rose in close proximity. Again the part that really doesn't make sense is that the Ants don't know about Rose or that it's poisonous even though these seem like common knowledge in the world of HXH. That doesn't mean they'd necessarily have a way to deal with it, but they shouldn't pull a 'I have no idea what the heck Rose is'.
Gon is always meant to be the strongest human when he grows up so the fact that he can borrow against his future self isn't really that outrageous. GI has items that restore youth and that's reversing aging ought to be much harder than rapid aging. If you assume Pitou, due to his natural type, probably isn't supposed to be good at hand-to-hand, it's not reasonable to say the most powerful Reinforcement human user can defeat a Specilization Ant user even though Ants are much stronger overall, especially given Pitou has no ability that's geared toward combat that takes advantage of his school.
Killua's lightning speed was borderline hacks and got immediately downgraded after that arc because if he can be so fast that two of the Royal Guards can't even touch him, then why on earth is he afraid of Ilumi? It's a situational powerup that is never repeated because the Royal Guards starts out with a power level greater than all the non-Netero Hunters put together so you need some special bailouts. At any rate Yupi took basically no damage, and I'd argue Knuckles canceling his ability shows that the Yupi beat him at the mind game. At any rate even if he didn't cancel his ability there's really no guaranteed whether they can still defeat him. When Pitou faced Gon, Killua said something along the lines of: "Gon has improved to the point that even Pitou must use aura to defeat him". That is, the notion of 'no aura can't beat those with aura' does not necessarily apply to the Royal Guards. In fact, based on Killua's words you can assume that Pitou CAN beat Gon the first time they met without using aura at all, and yet Gon can potentially kill Knuckles even back then. Of course Yupi without aura would make the fight actually winnable but it's nowhere near certain. Don't forget Yupi can fly and his flight ability does not seem to be dependent on aura.
Personally,i didn't find Ants power ridiculous for many reasons.Togashi foreshadowed this since the beginning,this manga was supposed to be about magical beasts etc...but we didn't see many,and also it's true that power system is interesting but i disagree with what you said about strong opponents,i had the same opinion than you before,but i understood that in HXH there are really RIDICULOUSLY STRONG FIGHTERS after have seen Uvo vs Shadow beasts,those fights radically changed my vision of the manga,enhancers are a good example,they are just powerhouses,it's one of the reason why many readers prefer other Nen types.And we have seen Gon become suddenly stronger during a volley ball match.Quote:
I want to say that in HXH you are OBLIGED to be a clever fighter,each Nen types have their forces and weaknesses and there are many possibilities.Actually,i really want to see a master enhancer vs a master emitter ,in situation like this,the enhancer will obviously try to come closer to his opponent while the emitter will try to escape,but if we see a dual between 2 master enhancers for example it will seriously be a DBZ-like battle.
Last edited by Demonspeed; October 17, 2012 at 04:56 AM.
Both of us have different interpretation on RIDICULOUSLY STRONG FIGHTERS.To me, ridiculously strong fighters is reserved for the royal guards and the king and maybe netero.(They were strong overall) The rest are just strong. When it comes to Uvogin, he was undeniably strong. But he definitely was not the strongest (not in terms of physical strength) overall, even in the Phantom Troupe. Chrollo was even stronger than him with his abundant of ability .Strength level is not just about physical strength and NOT ALL enhancer are powerhouse who goes around smashing things. Being an enhancer means you have a slight advantage (being the most well balance) but it doesn't mean your chances of winning are 100%. Tzugera was an enhancer, look how easy it was for Razor,an emitter to defeat him. Palm is an enhancer and she isn't all that great in term of physical strength. Gon,an enhancer lost to Knuckle, who is an emitter.Kastro, an enhancer got defeated by Hisoka,a Transmutation.Like you said,each Nen types have their forces and weaknesses and there are many possibilities.So enhancer is not exception to this rule.
I do agree that in HxH ,you have to be a clever fighter.All the fights in this series uses some form of intelligence.
Personally,overall, I did like the chimera ant arc despite all the flaws.The palace invasion was my favourite part.My previous post was why people didn't like it. But I still stand by what I say about the chimera ant being so strong,well initially,toward the end they were just strong. As the arc progress, it eventually level out as Gon and co. were able to compete against them. But it did took a lot of chapters to get to that point and with the art and hiatus, it's just frustrating for the reader to actually continue on.
I considered Pitou as ridiculously strong because it master nen really really fast.Pitou can spread it en to around 2 km/2 miles when Gon and Killua don't even know how to use it and even zeno can spread it to as far as 300m.There are many other reasons too but I'm just lazy to list it out.
edit :I'm not too sure if my post even make any sense..
I still don't see the problem with the whole rose thing ? Netero was going to die so Mereum just stood there and then BOOM ! he blew up. Mereum didn't see it coming, he thought the fight was over. The Royal Guards would have went to see if Mereum was alive REGARDLESS if they KNEW the bomb was poisonous... its just in their character, they care TOO much about him. So even if they did know or not the outcome would have been the same... As for the Ants being REALLY powerful.... um.. this in my opinion is ONE of the reasons why this arc was the best. It had so much suspense and you didn't know how it was going to end. Did you think the enemies would be a little stronger than the protagonist... after a while that gets boring ( in my opinion )
Also if Mereum wasn't so OP his character development wouldn't have been as good. Think about it. He was MOST LIKELY the strongest Nen user in the world and he could have done ANYTHING he wanted, but he questioned his own actions and changed his way because of Komugi. It wouldn't have been as impactful had he not been that strong.
Last edited by GingFuriksu; October 17, 2012 at 03:15 PM.
It pretty much defies the notion that the Ants are all powerful and super smart when they don't know things that a kid ought to know in the world of HXH.
Of course the problem is that had the Ants knew about the Rose there's going to be only two outcomes:
1. Meryem didn't lose his memory, orders all the Royal Guards to stand down and die because he's a nice guy and have no reason to have unneeded bloodshed now that he knew defeat is certain. That'd be pretty boring.
2. Meryem lost his memory so we get the violent version. He takes out 15 nations before he die. Pufu launches the nukes in NGL to random targets, and uses his clones to spread the poision some more. The nuke launches triggered a World War and 95% of the world population was wiped out, so while the Ants were defeated it's pretty much a double KO.
But you can't say 'it won't be interesting' as a reason to leave out vital stuff that the Ants ought to know.
By the way people value way too much on strategy. Meryem has a quote that basically says: "Violence is the strongest power in the world". Not counting nukes, he's essentially correct. He's saying you can do all these fancy strategy or whatever but when he can kill you before you can move, it doesn't really matter what crazy ability you might have. There's no inherent reason why Ubogin cannot defeat Kuroro in a fight to the death. If you have Biscuit or Razor level of stats (amongst humans), you don't really need much strategy. Netero doesn't need strategy against almost anyone either. He can just beat them down from beginning to end. The Royal Guards and Meryem more or less just use pure power/speed to overwhelm their opponents.
Yes Pufu has a lot of mind games going on but that's because he was limited to 1/14th of his power most of the time in the arc (his clones = 1/2 of his original strength, and the clone only had 1/7th of his total energy). There's no reason to believe he can't just bombard the area with aura blasts if he has his full strength against Killua, for example, and then he wouldn't need to do any mind games because Killua and Komugi would be dead.
Actually even the conqueror Meryem could decide to just stand down, because he's not someone who cannot take a defeat. But of course that'd also eliminate most of the plot too, as Meryem will probably say something like, "We got tricked by these stupid humans but a superior race like us must not get into a MAD with a lesser species, so everyone just stand down and die." And that'd be pretty stupid too, or at least anticlimatic. Basically, nothing after the Rose could've ever happened if Meryem knew what the poison does, because he'd know he has no chance of survival and then he'd either just nuke everyone or just order the Royals to cease & desist, depending on what he's feeling like during that particular moment.
Last edited by GingFuriksu; October 17, 2012 at 09:25 PM.
If he still has the conqueror personality, he can obviously take out multiple nations before he finally died, and Pufu will launch whatever nukes they have (NGL clearly has them). It's possible the conqueror Meryem still finds conquest pointless if he can't win (after all, he views conquest as a duty of being the supreme being, not because he enjoys it), and then in that case we get the same result. In either case you'd basically have to cut out the vast majority of the action in the Ants arc.
BUT, just because what's logical isn't exciting is not an excuse to have such an unrealistic lapse of common sense (not knowing about Rose seems to be equivalent of not knowing what nukes are in real life). Pufu and Meryem basically had a plot forced moment of stupidity so that the part after the Rose actually make sense. Otherwise, there would be no suspense at all. Either Meryem just flat out kills everyone or he immediately resigns knowing he's not going to live anyway.