What are your thoughts on Chimera Ant arc haters ?

[leokiko]

Try buying the volumes and reading it all. It's an amazing arc.

[XXGenesis]

Err, the Ants know enough about humanity to understand how to set up a puppet government or even compete in recreational activity. Pufu and Meryem is often shown reading a large number of books and they somehow missed the fact that there's some all powerful explosive with a poison that is said to be uncureable?

The Ants are probably too perfect as an ideal invasion species that there's no possible way they could overlook something like the Rose. They clearly studied human culture enough to know how to deal with them. And no the whole Pariston thing is irrelevent because the Hunters do not have authority over another soveriegn nation to begin with, which is why the Ants set up a puppet government. Netero could've gotten whoever he wants and it'd just be more food for Meryem.

As Phantron just explained it was banned way before the start of HXH. As I stated they wouldn't give a sh^+ about it feeling superior and had no way of knowing because it was in the President's chest set to go off if his heart stopped on this specific mission. And was the title of these books present no. So your speculation of what they read is retarded. As my memory serves it was only Games that the King read. And Pitou just always had a book as part of his character.

The President brought along his 2 most trusted associates aside from the Zodiac who are his playmates and respectful friends. And The President doesn't have absolute say in the HXH association it was mentioned during the arc and after during the election as it was shown how many factions are in the HXH. And Partison controlled most of them, and it was stated he always made the President job hard and they mentioned the Chimera Ant arc...which he stole the eggs that didn't hatch yet planning some cunning plan to use them.

Your ignoring major facts of my post they only took control of East Gourdo to assemble all the citizens in 1 spot orderly to convert them. If they didn't news would spread of the ants attacking. The President already knew of their existence and this plan, which is why the Hunters formulated the plan to rush the castle and separate the Royal Guards. Including Killua messing with the Ants plans to gather Ppl and Palm infiltrating as Bizef's concubine's.

The King and Royal Guards were simply smart enough to know the best course of action to assemble an army of Ants and how best to do it.

This whole Rose thing just sucked because it killed the King instead of the President or another Nen user, Who I believe they may be one out there would could have one. The King came back however had us hype thinking Gon would finish him but he got poisoned. That's all it just sucked but Togashi delivered this well enough for it to be believable.

[ContractHunterMEMO]

This whole Rose thing just sucked because it killed the King instead of the President or another Nen user, Who I believe they may be one out there would could have one. The King came back however had us hype thinking Gon would finish him but he got poisoned. That's all it just sucked but Togashi delivered this well enough for it to be believable.

Gon killing the King would probably be the most cliche ending to the arc. It would simply follow the overused formula of "protagonist powers up ---> defeats main antagonist".

Although you can argue that that's exactly what happened with Gon vs Pitou, however, with the only exception of Gon being on the brink of death after the fight against one of the royal guards and not the King.

Then I think one might ask then why couldn't the same outcome result with Gon vs Meryem? The King was incredibly developed for a reason, and his demise came to be by the hands of a human that instantiated fear within Meryem for the first and possibly only time in his life. This begged the question from the reader, aren't ants and humans very much the same? The ants essentially decimated a nation, while a nuclear bomb (symbolized by the Rose) can pretty much do the same thing in real life. It was more psychological rather than having a badass final fight between Gon and the ant King, which probably would've been cool but this is post-YYH Togashi we're talking about.

[XXGenesis]

Gon killing the King would probably be the most cliche ending to the arc. It would simply follow the overused formula of "protagonist powers up ---> defeats main antagonist".

Although you can argue that that's exactly what happened with Gon vs Pitou, however, with the only exception of Gon being on the brink of death after the fight against one of the royal guards and not the King.

Then I think one might ask then why couldn't the same outcome result with Gon vs Meryem? The King was incredibly developed for a reason, and his demise came to be by the hands of a human that instantiated fear within Meryem for the first and possibly only time in his life. This begged the question from the reader, aren't ants and humans very much the same? The ants essentially decimated a nation, while a nuclear bomb (symbolized by the Rose) can pretty much do the same thing in real life. It was more psychological rather than having a badass final fight between Gon and the ant King, which probably would've been cool but this is post-YYH Togashi we're talking about.

Well Togashi doesn't write like the usual Shounen Author's and the Protagonist Gon's power up's mostly resolve power ups are understandable considering the nature of Nen. Pitou was Grown up Gon's punching bag and he could still used more of a showing of what he will potential become...It would have been great Fan service but your right it could have turned out pretty chessey.

Very Psychological I actually thought the Ants may have ceased and desist and maybe have gone into hiding or something. If Gon had came into contact with the King and seen the way the Royal Guards acted he would have been pissed off either way. I love Togashi story telling which is why I wasn't mad with the Rose bomb plot device he made it fit pretty darn well. Can't ask for much more except for him to come off of Hiatus! =D

[GingFuriksu]

Gon killing the King would probably be the most cliche ending to the arc. It would simply follow the overused formula of "protagonist powers up ---> defeats main antagonist".

Although you can argue that that's exactly what happened with Gon vs Pitou, however, with the only exception of Gon being on the brink of death after the fight against one of the royal guards and not the King.

Then I think one might ask then why couldn't the same outcome result with Gon vs Meryem? The King was incredibly developed for a reason, and his demise came to be by the hands of a human that instantiated fear within Meryem for the first and possibly only time in his life. This begged the question from the reader, aren't ants and humans very much the same? The ants essentially decimated a nation, while a nuclear bomb (symbolized by the Rose) can pretty much do the same thing in real life. It was more psychological rather than having a badass final fight between Gon and the ant King, which probably would've been cool but this is post-YYH Togashi we're talking about.

Agreed. I really wouldn't call Gon's power up " cliche " I mean yes, power ups have been around in the Shonen genre since forever, but this made a lot more sense. From the beginning of the manga they talked about restrictions, vows, nen being affected heavily on emotion etc. So this was confirmed way back when they introduced nen, its not like it came out of nowhere. For example - DBZ, Super Saiyan came out of nowhere, it was talked about DURING the arc that it happened (the Namek arc ) Another one is Luffys Gear Second, yes it GOES with his devil fruit and its kind of understandable but still it came out of NOWHERE. He got owned by CP9, came back, rode a train, fought Blueno and BANG !! Gear Second ! Do you guys understand what I'm saying ? It isn't like this transformation came out of nowhere. It was obvious that Togashi was setting this up for a long time, what with the introduction to Alluka in the Greed Island arc and Gon's dark mood after losing to Knuckle. Another thing you have to factor in is that, every time someone gets a power up it lasts forever i.e Gear Second, Super Saiyan etc.
But Gon will NEVER ( I'm pretty sure ) get that form again, unless he tries to kill himself again, but let's be serious... that's not going to happen again lol The point is, he doesn't have it anymore, he's going to have to train his ass off for decades to achieve that power.

[ContractHunterMEMO]

Agreed. I really wouldn't call Gon's power up " cliche " I mean yes, power ups have been around in the Shonen genre since forever, but this made a lot more sense. From the beginning of the manga they talked about restrictions, vows, nen being affected heavily on emotion etc. So this was confirmed way back when they introduced nen, its not like it came out of nowhere. For example - DBZ, Super Saiyan came out of nowhere, it was talked about DURING the arc that it happened (the Namek arc ) Another one is Luffys Gear Second, yes it GOES with his devil fruit and its kind of understandable but still it came out of NOWHERE. He got owned by CP9, came back, rode a train, fought Blueno and BANG !! Gear Second ! Do you guys understand what I'm saying ? It isn't like this transformation came out of nowhere. It was obvious that Togashi was setting this up for a long time, what with the introduction to Alluka in the Greed Island arc and Gon's dark mood after losing to Knuckle. Another thing you have to factor in is that, every time someone gets a power up it lasts forever i.e Gear Second, Super Saiyan etc.
But Gon will NEVER ( I'm pretty sure ) get that form again, unless he tries to kill himself again, but let's be serious... that's not going to happen again lol The point is, he doesn't have it anymore, he's going to have to train his ass off for decades to achieve that power.

Looking back at my post, I don't think I was very clear, my bad

Don't get me wrong, Gon's "power-up" would've been cliche if there were no consequences or self-destruction, but it really wasn't. As far as I know it follows the nen system of conditions and/or sacrifices that are imposed in order to make one's Hatsu transcend it's limit in terms of power. For the story's sake, I was relieved how Togashi almost killed off Gon (and no I don't want Gon to die, it almost seemed like Togashi reminded us how he can kill anyone whenever he wants); it just made sense how Gon got his power and it didn't seem like it came out of nowhere like the examples you brought up.

[GingFuriksu]

Looking back at my post, I don't think I was very clear, my bad

Don't get me wrong, Gon's "power-up" would've been cliche if there were no consequences or self-destruction, but it really wasn't. As far as I know it follows the nen system of conditions and/or sacrifices that are imposed in order to make one's Hatsu transcend it's limit in terms of power. For the story's sake, I was relieved how Togashi almost killed off Gon (and no I don't want Gon to die, it almost seemed like Togashi reminded us how he can kill anyone whenever he wants); it just made sense how Gon got his power and it didn't seem like it came out of nowhere like the examples you brought up.

Yeah I know what you were trying to say : P I mainly wrote that for other people to see >.<

[Phantron]

The argument around the Ants all seem to be like your typical shonen stuff like XYZ side might have power but they don't have 'experience/friendship/heart/whatever'. But no that's totally against the point of the Ants. They're superior to human beings in every way besides from the capacity to be evil (Meryem fears the unlimited potential humanity to commit evil, and nothing else). When Killua attacked the capital the Ants sent out the puppets driving tanks and fighter jets. When Meryem wondered why such a useless guy like Diego can be the president Pufu explained that this is normal for humanity, implying he is quite aware of the kind of people that get elected to positions of power in human society. The Ants framed the Hunter attack as a political uprising, which shows they're aware of the political ramifications of their actions. If they're truly your standard 'our might > all' species they wouldn't have cared who attacked the capital, let alone having a prepared speech to deal with it.

The only thing humanity has over the Ants is that humanity is capable of evil while the Ants are not (human is food to them, they do not inherently hate humanity). Going along the lines of that they should've kept Komugi as a hostage, or for that matter Komugi could've been an agent sent out by some political entity to sow discord amongst the Ants. The biggest failure of the Ants arc is the conceit of its human readers and even author. For all the talk about Ants being superior to human in every possible way outside of the capacity to be evil, ultimately it turned out that human ingenuity/experience/love/friendship/'this way' was mostly enough along with a side of Deus Ex Machina. In the end humans do win and it wasn't even for the reason stated (evil is the only thing Meryem feared). No attempt was made to take advantage of the Ants overwhelming sense of honor (e.g. Yupi not killing everyone when he could, Pitou agree to unconditionally surrender to keep Komugi alive), which is their only weakness.

[XXGenesis]

The argument around the Ants all seem to be like your typical shonen stuff like XYZ side might have power but they don't have 'experience/friendship/heart/whatever'. But no that's totally against the point of the Ants. They're superior to human beings in every way besides from the capacity to be evil (Meryem fears the unlimited potential humanity to commit evil, and nothing else). When Killua attacked the capital the Ants sent out the puppets driving tanks and fighter jets. When Meryem wondered why such a useless guy like Diego can be the president Pufu explained that this is normal for humanity, implying he is quite aware of the kind of people that get elected to positions of power in human society. The Ants framed the Hunter attack as a political uprising, which shows they're aware of the political ramifications of their actions. If they're truly your standard 'our might > all' species they wouldn't have cared who attacked the capital, let alone having a prepared speech to deal with it.

The only thing humanity has over the Ants is that humanity is capable of evil while the Ants are not (human is food to them, they do not inherently hate humanity). Going along the lines of that they should've kept Komugi as a hostage, or for that matter Komugi could've been an agent sent out by some political entity to sow discord amongst the Ants. The biggest failure of the Ants arc is the conceit of its human readers and even author. For all the talk about Ants being superior to human in every possible way outside of the capacity to be evil, ultimately it turned out that human ingenuity/experience/love/friendship/'this way' was mostly enough along with a side of Deus Ex Machina. In the end humans do win and it wasn't even for the reason stated (evil is the only thing Meryem feared). No attempt was made to take advantage of the Ants overwhelming sense of honor (e.g. Yupi not killing everyone when he could, Pitou agree to unconditionally surrender to keep Komugi alive), which is their only weakness.

Evil? Re-read the chapters nothing about Mankind's Wickedness in there. And When Killua tried to halt the selection they knew nothing about Hunters or their organization except for there are humans who can use Nen and who are trying to stop their advancement in their world....So back to this Evil your talking about. The Ants were mixed with Humans, which the President points out should never mix. Why? Because it's extremely dangerous they go back and forth between Human emotions and cold hearted killers. Yupi not killing everybody and letting Knuckle survive and Morau even after their attacks(human emotions). The King who fell in love with Komugi but killed off other humans rather easily. He even gained respect for certain Humans saying he would put them in a ghetto and carefully choose who to eat meaning only special and talented humans can only survive in his world. Their ideology becomes very dangerous because it's mixed and Netero said he has to finish off Meryem before his heart is swayed. The ants were evil. What Netero instilled into Meryem was FEAR for the 1st time in his short life. Showing the persistence and tenacity of Humans. It's in Chp289. Meryem whole thing was he's fit to rule the world and hi species Netero stated that he's undermining Human's ability to evolve to. And in dialogue states Who knew if the Rose bomb was the difference between The Ants and Humans. Remember Gon is also a dangerous Amoral individual, he doesn't exactly like Killers but he would be friend one ex.Killua and would go to bat against authorities for this friend. The Ants the human mixed one's were similar in this way that they were too Grey!

[ContractHunterMEMO]

Yeah I know what you were trying to say : P I mainly wrote that for other people to see >.<

Dammit Ging you made me look like a fool! Maybe I should rename to Pariston Hiru and start trolling you

[Phantron]

The Royal+ tiers aren't mixed with humans. They're pure Ants and as Meryem puts it, whatever 'individuality' they may have is just merely another test along the way to the end of evolution. Meryem doesn't even view it as a weakness but as a necessary step, and if some of the Royals never got out of the 'individual' stage there's no reason to believe he'd even care. Perhaps he'll be disappointed that the Royals did not reach the same stage as he is but he is always aware there is no such thing as a perfect world.

Netero's attempt to rationalize which side Meryem leans shows his lack of ability to comprehend a superior species, because he still thinks humans are supposed to be equal to Ants. The whole point is that the Ants are superior humans on the food chain/evolution. It's like cows saying humans are bipolar because some people talk about animal rights while still eating hamburgers, while other humans don't care about cows at all. It's not that humans have any particular agenda against cows. The guys arguing for better treatment of cows probably don't see cows as equal. Meryem can give favorable or unfavorable treatment to humans completely on a whim, because ultimately they're just another species to conquer.

The real failure of the arc is that since the reader of HXH are all presumably humans, it's tempting to see the story from the human's point of view. There's a short story by the author who did Doraemon about this world where the role of cows and humans are reversed, so this human from Earth crash landed there, found this cute girl who was about to get eaten and rescued her, and the girl was wondering why this guy interfered when she considered herself lucky to be picked as the equivalent of Kobe human steak. This is obviously the cow's point of view, and a human raised in cow's point of view would consider being Kobe human steak to be a great honor. Likewise the Ant arc should be looked at from the Ant's point of view, because they're the dominant species. The Ants have plans to deal with mostly national-level entities, which is why they have a fake government front (though bizarrely, they don't know about national-level weapons like the Rose). They heard about these Aura using guys but for the most part they don't really fear the abilities at the human level, so they make plans as they should but they don't really take humans seriously. For the most part the arc confirms that the Ants, at the Royal level, really have no reason to take humans seriously on a 1on1 level. Throughout the arc we're constantly reminded a single Royal can decimate the entire strike force minus Netero almost at will. Even the intelligence that human pride in, we consistently see Royals beat human at that game too. Pufu obviously was a master of this, but even Yupi saw through Knuckle's weakness.

It's worth noting that even Pufu, who is probably the most anti-human Ant out of Royals, don't necessarily want the extinction of humanity. What Pufu wants is some grand unification of all species and there must be something for a conqueror to rule over. He clearly sees the plaza full of drooling humans as some kind of trophy that honors Meryem. Of course, Meryem, even in his 'conqueror' form, doesn't even care about that, since he's far beyond such things. He conquers merely because it is his duty. He really could care less what happens to humanity, other than that they're his favorite type of food.

[GingFuriksu]

Dammit Ging you made me look like a fool! Maybe I should rename to Pariston Hiru and start trolling you

BWAHAHAHAH

[Cinnabar]

Just my two cents, and maybe more. Warning: long post it long.

OPINION:

I think Gon's power-up is very interesting because it reinforces three points: First is that Togashi reminds us that he is not averse to putting our favorite characters in mortal danger, and there is the very real possibility of character death. While I don't think Gon will really die in the manga (...yet?), I do think that Togashi won't hesitate to make that happen if that really is how the story unfolds.

Second is about how battles aren't clear cut in the manga. What I mean by this is that, as already mentioned in the manga, you don't determine who wins Nen battles based on who has more Nen or who is better at using it. This has also been shown in Yorkshin when Kurapika - who only studied Nen for half a year at that time - was able to defeat a Phantom Troupe member - someone that even the mafia can't handle even if they bring a whole army with them. Nen is deeply affected by emotions and the mental state of mind. For me, Gon's power-up was not only affected by his vow/restriction, but also his being emotionally-charged; his single-minded one-track goal of avenging Kaito. Likewise, I also believe that Kurapika's Nen is affected (boosted?) by his deep hatred towards the Spiders.

Lastly, Gon's power-up reminded me how much potential this little boy has. The manga shows us time and time again that Gon (and Killua) have a lot of potential; Wing has even mentioned that their talents are like one in million, or something to that effect. Quoting what I said in mangafox a few months back:

From what I understand, Gon basically did what Kurapika taught him: using Nen restrictions and oath to get a stronger Hatsu. He forced himself to 'grow up' for one moment to defeat one enemy, taking as much of his life until he is at the age and power where he can beat Pitou. It's suicidal because, on the offchance that he will never grow up to defeat Pitou, he will use up more and more of his life until he died. But we all know he has a lot of potential, so that won't happen.

Point is, Gon was able to defeat Pitou without using up his entire life. Then it could be inferred that Gon has the potential to be just as strong, if not stronger, than the Royal Guards (given enough practice and training, of course).

The only thing humanity has over the Ants is that humanity is capable of evil while the Ants are not (human is food to them, they do not inherently hate humanity). Going along the lines of that they should've kept Komugi as a hostage, or for that matter Komugi could've been an agent sent out by some political entity to sow discord amongst the Ants. The biggest failure of the Ants arc is the conceit of its human readers and even author. For all the talk about Ants being superior to human in every possible way outside of the capacity to be evil, ultimately it turned out that human ingenuity/experience/love/friendship/'this way' was mostly enough along with a side of Deus Ex Machina. In the end humans do win and it wasn't even for the reason stated (evil is the only thing Meryem feared). No attempt was made to take advantage of the Ants overwhelming sense of honor (e.g. Yupi not killing everyone when he could, Pitou agree to unconditionally surrender to keep Komugi alive), which is their only weakness.

Likewise the Ant arc should be looked at from the Ant's point of view, because they're the dominant species. The Ants have plans to deal with mostly national-level entities, which is why they have a fake government front (though bizarrely, they don't know about national-level weapons like the Rose). They heard about these Aura using guys but for the most part they don't really fear the abilities at the human level, so they make plans as they should but they don't really take humans seriously.

[OPINION] "The biggest failure of the Ants arc is the conceit of its human readers and even author." This is subjective; I think it's actually one of the things that made me enjoy the Ant arc. The thing is, when we're talking about 'evil' here we're talking about what humans have already established as evil. Even what Meruem considers as evil is the same as what humans consider as evil; it's almost like morality is universal. Or rather, the author is human and therefore what the characters consider as 'evil' will most likely be based or rooted from what the author (who is human) or the society he is in considers as evil.

I actually think that the conceit of the readers and the author as humans is the point of the arc. Nobody put humans on the pedestal... except we humans ourselves. We are self-important people, and I think that's one of the many themes of the arc. We're human; we can't help but read the arc with the bias towards humanity. Togashi then attempts to present the side of the Ants in a way that we may understand them, even if they are a different species: by showing us that Ants are capable of things like love. By showing us that the Ants aren't inferior, but rather superior in the food chain. By showing us that they think they're better, and that gives them the right (or power) to conquer every other inferior species - which is something humans also do. They aren't really any different from human beings in some aspects. Idk, that's just what I got from the whole arc, especially when Meruem asks if humans ever ask pigs before they kill them and eat them. We can sympathize/empathize/understand the Ants to some degree. I don't think the arc should be seen in the human's POV or Ant's POV just because one is biased and the other is more dominant. But rather, I think it is best to read the arc from both perspectives because what we're seeing isn't a story about rebellion or conquering another species, but rather a conglomeration of inextricably linked events that shows both sides of the situation, Ants' and humans'. [/OPINION]

I don't think them not knowing about the Rose is that big of a deal. I seriously doubt this is public stuff, or that it's the kind of information you can easily get. They didn't even know Nen existed before. If the Hunter Association can keep Nen a secret from most humans, then I don't think it's that big of a stretch to say that they can keep the Rose a secret even to the public, especially since it's a dangerous weapon that (most likely) hasn't been used recently. Well, my memory's a bit fuzzy so I could be wrong. But I think the Rose is treated as the last resort for many dangerous situations, so it makes sense that it should remain a secret even to those who are in a high position. Plus, considering that they are situated in a country that's not as tech-savvy or updated as the rest of the world, getting info about government secret weapons wouldn't be that easy because the info isn't readily available.

/OPINION

[Phantron]

The nation the Ants seized has Rose. It was reported on national TV that Diego planned on using Rose to blow all the people up in the cover up story.

Clearly the capability of the Rose in the world of HXH is available to anyone with even a passing interest in massive weapon of destruction. It's certainly something that can be discussed on national TV. In fact it's very safe to say more people knows about Rose than the people who know about Aura in the world of HXH given the former is a subject that can be discussed on TV while the latter is definitely not.

The human point of view is fairly irrelevent because after all the readers are human too and it's not hard to see that if you're faced with a species that will likely result in the extinction or at least trying to completely conquer your world you're not going to negotiate with them. But the whole trying to figure out which way the Ants (especially Meryem) are leaning or what might've influenced is just human conceit. If the favorite food of Ants were bacon instead of human, you wouldn't have any of nonsensical philsophical stuff about what motivates the Ants, and yet from the Ants' point of view there is no difference between their favorite food being bacon or human hamburger. It just happens that in this world human beat out bacon as their favorite food. If bacon was the preferred food of the Ants, would the Ants even bother negotiating with humans? Maybe they wouldn't even care enough to attack an inferior species that tastes worse than bacon? Or would they have already unleashed the Rose figuring humans are useless when you got bacon? You really have no idea because in the grand scheme of things, the Ants aren't concerned about humans if not for the fact that they like to eat them.

[Cinnabar]

Well to be honest, I don't remember much details concerning the Rose so I won't argue over that anymore lest I misremember and say something wrong. XD I didn't remember that it was discussed on TV, but if that's the case, then it would seem weird that the Ants didn't know anything about it. Ultimately, I think the problem with the Ant arc is that it's such a huge arc and it's very likely at any point the readers may think Togashi may have bitten off more than he can chew. Hence why the ending may not be a good payoff. Now whether Togashi was successful or not is up to the reader, of course.

Interesting point there in the last paragraph; I understand it better now. Komugi aside, and possibly Netero as well, the Ants don't see humans overall as nothing more than food or an inferior species. Or would you say that the respect Meruem has gained for Komugi (and maybe Netero in the end?) is also only because we're seeing things through the human POV?