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Thread: Minato the legendary hokage, did he fail in so many ways?

  1. #46
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member chilibun's Avatar
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    Re: Minato the legendary hokage, did he fail in so many ways?

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    Government policies dictate how the citizens are to be treated, whatever the rest of the village imagines or thinks is not a debatable issue, because they cannot alter the set and staunch political policy set up by the elders, who were obviously hell-bent on keeping the Uchiha clan out of the entire political scene. Just because they were not banned superficially doesn't mean the internal policy was also the same. The way there were no Uchihas in the government set up or had no higher seats proves that it was all just a shenanigan, and Tobi/Obito was right about everything; the whole clan segregation and pro-senju sentiments.

    The clan were the founders, they must have felt that they were being segregated by limiting them to police force only. Like I said; lopsided treatment. Supericially, it seemed like some sort of honour, but internally, it was a method to limit their power. The way the acted rashly to plant a spy there and then wipe out the clan over whimsical reasons proves my point even further.

    I'll call it a tyrannical government; go my way, or die. I think Uchihas made a huge mistake turning their backs on Madara. Their poor decision came back to haunt them decades later.
    Again, I am not disagreeing with you that the Konoha leaders are "tyrannical", but that's the name of the game. There are no such thing as ethics in war. What I'm saying is that the Uchiha's were more or less were content with their living conditions, even if they felt mistreated by the leaders. They have lived for decades under that system with Tobirama and Hiruzen without conflicts. It was only after the Kyuubi attack that pushed them over the edge with Anbu surveillance and elders that basically blamed them for the attack.

    Also, how the rest of the village view the Uchihas matter. Things are never that simple. A lot of Uchihas could simply be content with being members of the police force as it was quite an honorable and prestigious job. Many may not even be aware of this "glass ceiling" placed upon them by the leaders.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    That wouldn't make much sense though, acting after so long. At best, it would have had to be a recent lost, which would fit with what we were told about their treatment after the Kyuubi Assault. The Elders used the Kyuubi as an excuse to discriminate and take their power, causing the Uchiha clan to react in turn with their coup.
    It couldn't have been a recent lost. We were told specifically that the Military Police Force was specifically created and designed to preoccupy them from attaining the leadership roles. Suddenly confiscating w/e political powers they had left is also way too blatant for general populace to see. We know that the Uchihas are still very respected by the other clansmen and villagers, so the leaders couldn't have acted so brazenly obvious. The Uchiha's political power was most likely lost gradually over time since the establishment of the Police Force and the joining of new clans.

  2. #47
    MH Senpai MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Minato the legendary hokage, did he fail in so many ways?

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    It couldn't have been a recent lost. We were told specifically that the Military Police Force was specifically created and designed to preoccupy them from attaining the leadership roles. Suddenly confiscating w/e political powers they had left is also way too blatant for general populace to see. We know that the Uchihas are still very respected by the other clansmen and villagers, so the leaders couldn't have acted so brazenly obvious. The Uchiha's political power was most likely lost gradually over time since the establishment of the Police Force and the joining of new clans.
    The coup was built around reclaiming the taken political power, as stated by the Elders. So perhaps they didn't have much, but they did have some, and Konoha taking it was what led to them declaring the coup. And we already know that they were forced to move to a specific section of the village. So their actions against the Uchiha clan were already pretty brazenly. Anyway, Tobi told us and Itachi corroborated that the Elder's discrimination against the Uchiha clan began relatively recent to the eventual massacre.

  3. #48
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member chilibun's Avatar
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    Re: Minato the legendary hokage, did he fail in so many ways?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    The coup was built around reclaiming the taken political power, as stated by the Elders. So perhaps they didn't have much, but they did have some, and Konoha taking it was what led to them declaring the coup. And we already know that they were forced to move to a specific section of the village. So their actions against the Uchiha clan were already pretty brazenly. Anyway, Tobi told us and Itachi corroborated that the Elder's discrimination against the Uchiha clan began relatively recent to the eventual massacre.
    Right, except Uchiha being moved to the outskirts and lost of political power started during Tobirama's era. It wasn't obvious that they trying to dwindle down the Uchiha's political power at that time because they were given such a prestigious and honorable position, the Police Force, at that time. But that was decades ago, so no it did not occur recently like the elders just woke up and took it away one day. Simply taking away w/e Uchiha power had left now without good reasons would be too brazen now, as other villagers still respected the Uchiha clan. The elders still has to maintain a favorable opinion with the village. It was only after the Kyuubi's attack that the elders placed Anbu surveillance on the them and basically branded them as the enemy, and that drove the Uchihas into coup mode. Not having political power sucks, but is still tolerable considering they were still respected by everybody. Being spied on and branded as enemies is not. That's why the Uchihas didn't rebel even after decades of dwindling power, but did soon after the Kyuubi attack. It can't be just a coincidence.

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    Re: Minato the legendary hokage, did he fail in so many ways?

    No, according to Tobi and Itachi, the segregation happen after the Kyuubi incident. The Elders used the Kyuubi incident as the excuse to make their play, which included taking whatever political power the Uchiha clan held. We know that because it was specifically mentioned that coup was over political power. The Anbu on the other hand probably wasn't a great issue, since the Uchiha clan had their own agents in Anbu feeding them intel.

  5. #50
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member chilibun's Avatar
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    Re: Minato the legendary hokage, did he fail in so many ways?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    No, according to Tobi and Itachi, the segregation happen after the Kyuubi incident. The Elders used the Kyuubi incident as the excuse to make their play, which included taking whatever political power the Uchiha clan held. We know that because it was specifically mentioned that coup was over political power. The Anbu on the other hand probably wasn't a great issue, since the Uchiha clan had their own agents in Anbu feeding them intel.
    Ok, you are correct about the segregation after the Kyuubi incident, but the point remains. Gaining political power was the purpose of the coup, but its the oppression that drove them to it. If losing political power was enough to drive them to commit to the coup, then it would have started much earlier as they have been losing that decades ago during the Tobirama era. The Anbu surveillance may or may not be an issue regarding actual strategic intelligence, but it is a direct intrusion of privacy. Its an act of oppression that further drove them into the need for the coup.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member darkprince0521's Avatar
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    Re: Minato the legendary hokage, did he fail in so many ways?

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    Ok, you are correct about the segregation after the Kyuubi incident, but the point remains. Gaining political power was the purpose of the coup, but its the oppression that drove them to it. If losing political power was enough to drive them to commit to the coup, then it would have started much earlier as they have been losing that decades ago during the Tobirama era. The Anbu surveillance may or may not be an issue regarding actual strategic intelligence, but it is a direct intrusion of privacy. Its an act of oppression that further drove them into the need for the coup.
    it had become a never ending cycle. why would Konoha feel that Uchihas need to be oppressed? i think the oppression was caused for Uchiha's hunger for power. so Konoha didn't let the oppression go.

  7. #52
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    Re: Minato the legendary hokage, did he fail in so many ways?

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    Ok, you are correct about the segregation after the Kyuubi incident, but the point remains. Gaining political power was the purpose of the coup, but its the oppression that drove them to it. If losing political power was enough to drive them to commit to the coup, then it would have started much earlier as they have been losing that decades ago during the Tobirama era. The Anbu surveillance may or may not be an issue regarding actual strategic intelligence, but it is a direct intrusion of privacy. Its an act of oppression that further drove them into the need for the coup.
    Not gaining, taking what they had back.The situation with Tobirama was to prevent them from taking any bigger political role, but there's no indication that the political power they already held was being taken back then. Nor would it make sense, because the coup started after the Kyuubi incident. The Anbu surveillance which was already going on since the Tobirama era was already known and would not have been enough to upset the scales. Point is, the coup began after the Kyuubi assault, and the only incident that we know of was the removal of power.

  8. #53
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Minato the legendary hokage, did he fail in so many ways?

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    Again, I am not disagreeing with you that the Konoha leaders are "tyrannical", but that's the name of the game. There are no such thing as ethics in war. What I'm saying is that the Uchiha's were more or less were content with their living conditions, even if they felt mistreated by the leaders. They have lived for decades under that system with Tobirama and Hiruzen without conflicts. It was only after the Kyuubi attack that pushed them over the edge with Anbu surveillance and elders that basically blamed them for the attack.

    Also, how the rest of the village view the Uchihas matter. Things are never that simple. A lot of Uchihas could simply be content with being members of the police force as it was quite an honorable and prestigious job. Many may not even be aware of this "glass ceiling" placed upon them by the leaders.



    It couldn't have been a recent lost. We were told specifically that the Military Police Force was specifically created and designed to preoccupy them from attaining the leadership roles. Suddenly confiscating w/e political powers they had left is also way too blatant for general populace to see. We know that the Uchihas are still very respected by the other clansmen and villagers, so the leaders couldn't have acted so brazenly obvious. The Uchiha's political power was most likely lost gradually over time since the establishment of the Police Force and the joining of new clans.
    I am not disagreeing with you either. Ethics and the will of fire do not go hand in hand anyway. Look at Konoha's internal policies. They literally gave the roots division to an arbitrary individual like Danzo and he carried out the so called 'will of fire' by hunting down ninjas, which can basically be translated into petty criminal activity. He took out Nagato's formed clan for peace for his own gain, and the elders never felt the need to curb his actions. Calling this sham of a government set-up tyrannical would be an understatement.

    You are also right about pushing the clan to the verges of breaking point. That additional segregation was clearly the last straw.

    ---------- Post added at 02:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:01 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by darkprince0521 View Post
    it had become a never ending cycle. why would Konoha feel that Uchihas need to be oppressed? i think the oppression was caused for Uchiha's hunger for power. so Konoha didn't let the oppression go.
    It's funny, because the way Senju clan and their supporters kept uchiha clan out of power positions speaks otherwise. It seems to me that they wanted the ultimate control regardless of anything and their supporters finally succeeded in their long-laid plans by eliminating the clan once and for all.
    Last edited by shahdan; October 14, 2012 at 04:10 PM.

  9. #54
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member Archea's Avatar
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    Re: Minato the legendary hokage, did he fail in so many ways?

    In his short time as Hokage four things came from the fourth's legacy. He prevented kumogakure from ascertaining the kyuubi not once but twice, then he defended the village from the Kyuubi and assured it would still stay in the village's hands. The final and the greatest aspect of his Legacy was giving konoha Naruto their savior, mostly Kushina's achievement but nonetheless he was apart of it. The bad that came, was his failure to kill the masked man and abandoning his child.
    Naruto's sealing-cloak is ugly, he needs to finish his chakra agreement with kyuubi already!

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    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Minato the legendary hokage, did he fail in so many ways?

    Quote Originally Posted by Archea View Post
    In his short time as Hokage four things came from the fourth's legacy. He prevented kumogakure from ascertaining the kyuubi not once but twice, then he defended the village from the Kyuubi and assured it would still stay in the village's hands. The final and the greatest aspect of his Legacy was giving konoha Naruto their savior, mostly Kushina's achievement but nonetheless he was apart of it. The bad that came, was his failure to kill the masked man and abandoning his child.
    Actually, he prevented Kumo from getting Kyuubi before he became a hokage. I think around 14-18?

    I don't think the failure to kill Tobi was really a bad thing, considering what Tobi could tank. I'm pretty sure if that was a regular body, Tobi would have been at the best, paralyzed from the rasengan.
    Vote for koen for favorite senpai so koen is active again!

  11. #56
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member marshall313's Avatar
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    Re: Minato the legendary hokage, did he fail in so many ways?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Not gaining, taking what they had back.The situation with Tobirama was to prevent them from taking any bigger political role, but there's no indication that the political power they already held was being taken back then. Nor would it make sense, because the coup started after the Kyuubi incident. The Anbu surveillance which was already going on since the Tobirama era was already known and would not have been enough to upset the scales. Point is, the coup began after the Kyuubi assault, and the only incident that we know of was the removal of power.
    Yes, the coup began afte the kyubi`s assault when the uchiha's playing with hide and seek.

    Remember, it's uchiha's fault on why the elders doesn't trust them anymore. They're suppose to be the konohas finest police and yet they're nowhere to be found at that assault. Why? Do you think that's just an coincidence? Hell Noh.

    There must be something going to happen at that night. Tobi attacking the konoha and the uhiha nowhere to be found, is somehow like a plan/strategy.

    It maybe an assumption, but tobi must be controlling the uchiha leaders/elders to help him at that night. Maybe theuchiha clan is already trying the coup through the help of tobi and the kyubi. Because, it doesn't make any sense on why tobi did attack the konoha all by himself.

    So, don't just blame the konoha's elders. Its the uciha's fault on why itachi killed them all. In fact, itachi stated that the uchiha clan at that time has a useless idea/plan.

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    Re: Minato the legendary hokage, did he fail in so many ways?

    Lol, this is really funny

    Spoiler show
    Quote Originally Posted by IChallengeYou! View Post
    TOBI IS OBITO

    did you say something about timelines?! naruto ate it NOM NOM NOM IT'S GONE.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member marshall313's Avatar
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    Re: Minato the legendary hokage, did he fail in so many ways?

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    Ok, you are correct about the segregation after the Kyuubi incident, but the point remains. Gaining political power was the purpose of the coup, but its the oppression that drove them to it. If losing political power was enough to drive them to commit to the coup, then it would have started much earlier as they have been losing that decades ago during the Tobirama era. The Anbu surveillance may or may not be an issue regarding actual strategic intelligence, but it is a direct intrusion of privacy. Its an act of oppression that further drove them into the need for the coup.
    If that is the case, why would itachi and shisui betrayed the uchiha clan if the purpose of that coup is just gaining the political power? It doesn't make any sense.

    Remember what itachi said to sasuke? The uchiha clan has a useless idea/plan after the coup. So blaming the konohas elders isn't right. They never used any genjutsu to itachi for betraying his clan. Itachi did killed the uchiha on his own will.

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    MH Senpai MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Minato the legendary hokage, did he fail in so many ways?

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    Yes, the coup began afte the kyubi`s assault when the uchiha's playing with hide and seek.

    Remember, it's uchiha's fault on why the elders doesn't trust them anymore. They're suppose to be the konohas finest police and yet they're nowhere to be found at that assault. Why? Do you think that's just an coincidence? Hell Noh.

    There must be something going to happen at that night. Tobi attacking the konoha and the uhiha nowhere to be found, is somehow like a plan/strategy.

    It maybe an assumption, but tobi must be controlling the uchiha leaders/elders to help him at that night. Maybe theuchiha clan is already trying the coup through the help of tobi and the kyubi. Because, it doesn't make any sense on why tobi did attack the konoha all by himself.

    So, don't just blame the konoha's elders. Its the uciha's fault on why itachi killed them all. In fact, itachi stated that the uchiha clan at that time has a useless idea/plan.
    First off, the only two Uchiha's said to be missing were Sasuke's father and mother. The very fact that the Uchiha clan was still well respected afterward pretty much implies that they weren't all missing, otherwise it would in fact have bought up questions. Secondly, there's no way they knew what was gonna happen. Why would they leave their children in the very village that was gonna be attacked if they knew about it beforehand? Nor were they helping him, otherwise it wouldn't have just been him and the Kyuubi attacking. The Uchiha clan was shown plenty of a threat to Konoha. If he had their help, then he would have succeeded. And thirdly, the Elders knew that the Uchiha clan wasn't behind the Kyuubi attack. And their actions against them had nothing to do with a belief that they were responsible. So the Elders can in fact be blamed.

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