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Thread: Minato the legendary hokage, did he fail in so many ways?

  1. #31
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member chilibun's Avatar
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    Re: Minato the legendary hokage, did he fail in so many ways?

    @ Rikudou King,

    Look, I'm not going to argue with you whether it is the right or wrong decision. I'm just saying there are legitimate concerns and reasons for keeping strong ninjas at the village, even it they were only precautionary. Pain's attack actually does show its importance of having strong ninjas at the village because people like Kakashi, Chouji's dad, etc. were able to react and defend the village, even though they failed. Oro also had an entire sand village backing him up or else Konoha, by my estimations, would have defeated the sounds rather convincingly. Regardless of who or what type of attack it is, you can't predict success or failure. You can only strategize your defenses and hope for the best.

    @ Uchiha_Blood,

    Well, since you gave me such a humorous response of fathering Naruto as an accomplishment, I though I give you an equally humorous one of why Minato is a bringer of death and misery. I'm just amazed so many seem to take it seriously. On a serious note though, the village were only untrusting of the Uchihas prior to the Kyuubi attack. They were not pushed to point of rebellion. The heavy spying on the Uchiha began after the Kyuubi attack when the elders suspected them of being responsible for it.

    @ xXan,

    Why so serious? Say it with me, "ha, ha."

    @ M3J,

    Because a full grown Minato already had trouble containing half the Kyuubi. What makes you think a baby Naruto would be able to handle the whole thing?
    Last edited by chilibun; October 04, 2012 at 04:53 PM.

  2. #32
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Minato the legendary hokage, did he fail in so many ways?

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    Look, I'm not going to argue with you whether it is the right or wrong decision. I'm just saying there are legitimate concerns and reasons for keeping strong ninjas at the village, even it they were only precautionary. Pain's attack actually does show its importance of having strong ninjas at the village because people like Kakashi, Chouji's dad, etc. were able to react and defend the village, even though they failed. Oro also had an entire sand village backing him up or else Konoha, by my estimations, would have defeated the sounds rather convincingly. Regardless of who or what type of attack it is, you can't predict success or failure. You can only strategize your defenses and hope for the best.
    And my point was there were major tactical reasons to attempt to capture the Sound Four, more so then solely focusing on defense when it already fail. Just think about what capturing one of them could have possibility given Konoha; information where Orochimaru was (something Konoha was and has been attempting to discover for a long time), information about what he's planning (which also would have helped in the event that they were just a distraction), information on what Orochimaru had been doing in the past, information on the location of his "village" and number of soldiers he had, any allies he had or were working with, how they were capable of getting through Konoha's barrier so that Konoha could prevent anyone else from taking advantage of that issue, and whether Orochimaru had any other spies in Konoha or other villages. Even just half that information would have not only been a great reward to Konoha, but would have put Orochimaru on the defensive. Defending the village is all well and good, but we've seen several times the power of information and how important it was to gather it, even to the point of giving one's life.

    The Six Pains were able to walk through the village without pause and cause massive destruction before those strong ninjas were able to put up a defense, and in that situation there were a village-worth, not less then a handful. And Orochimaru didn't employ the whole Suna force, he only used 100 of their ninjas in addition to 100 of his own Oto ninjas. The best defense would have to taken out the threat.

  3. #33
    MH Senpai 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Uchiha_Blood's Avatar
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    Re: Minato the legendary hokage, did he fail in so many ways?

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    Pain's attack actually does show its importance of having strong ninjas at the village because people like Kakashi, Chouji's dad, etc. were able to react and defend the village, even though they failed.
    Makes you wonder why Pein chose to attack when the Gaikage was out of town

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    @ Uchiha_Blood,

    Well, since you gave me such a humorous response of fathering Naruto as an accomplishment, I though I give you an equally humorous one of why Minato is a bringer of death and misery. I'm just amazed so many seem to take it seriously. On a serious note though, the village were only untrusting of the Uchihas prior to the Kyuubi attack. They were not pushed to point of rebellion. The heavy spying on the Uchiha began after the Kyuubi attack when the elders suspected them of being responsible for it.
    I think Yondaime's only true, undeniable failure is how much he sucks as a father

    True, but the whole thing started with Niidaime, and back then there were other Uchihas that begin to plot.
    Most likely the Kyuubi attack hastened the whole thing, I don't doubt Uchihas would try a coup regardless.
    They are painted as the bad guys, the cursed clan, they didn't have the Will of Fire, they were heatens, villains, they scare little kids at night and stole candy from them

  4. #34
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Minato the legendary hokage, did he fail in so many ways?

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    @ M3J,

    Because a full grown Minato already had trouble containing half the Kyuubi. What makes you think a baby Naruto would be able to handle the whole thing?
    Blaaaaaaaaaargh, once again Minato used Death Reaper Seal on himself. DIFFERENT from the seal he used on Naruto, Four Elephants Seal or whatever. Baby Naruto shouldn't be affected by full Kyuubi. He obviously wasn't affected by half of Kyuubi, which affected Minato himself. Hell, up until Part II, Naruto had no trouble with the Kyuubi at all, he was even able to retain control even when Kyuubi saw it fit to help Naruto out when Naruto was aware of it.

  5. #35
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Bajan4eva1's Avatar
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    Re: Minato the legendary hokage, did he fail in so many ways?

    Valid opinions everyone. Mine...well i don't think Minato was a failure. I think he made the best of some f#$ked up situations. And that's the best we can ever hope to do. Sure he wasn't there when Obito "died" but Kakashi was a jounin and he did save far more lives on that battlefield before he got back to Kakashi and Rin. So that can be debated...the needs of the few vs. the needs of the many...whats the lesser evil type deal. However I don't know what the hell he was thinking as a father. Kushina wanted him to live to take care of Naruto and even when Naruto met him he asked how he could seal the kyuubi in him. I guess he was thinking as a father, leader, and a husband. Many would fail to act as calmly and calculating as he did. So he was thinking of the village before his kid but then also had faith in his kid to master the power he was giving him.

    All that being said i'll reiterate that Minato wasn't a failure, he made due with what he had. And if his failure is to be partially measured by his students then Kakashi and Sarutobi are another story. I want to say that like Minato, Kakashi made the best of a bad situation but sometimes i don't know if he gave his all for Sasuke. Maybe we should start a thread on them and analyze if they failed in so many ways. At least Obito wants to remake the world for the sake of peace. Sasuke up until recently (but probably still) is just out to destroy s&*t. But hey some say they're no such things as bad students, only bad teachers (LOL Karate Kid). I think there are bad apples from time to time. Minato, Kakashi, and even the Sandime had one. LOL now all we need is Sasuke to kill Kakashi and Kakashi will fit right into the club with Minato and Saurtobi...all had a bad student who was intentionally the catalyst in the events that led to their deaths.
    Last edited by Bajan4eva1; October 05, 2012 at 12:02 AM.

  6. #36
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: Minato the legendary hokage, did he fail in so many ways?

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Blaaaaaaaaaargh, once again Minato used Death Reaper Seal on himself. DIFFERENT from the seal he used on Naruto, Four Elephants Seal or whatever. Baby Naruto shouldn't be affected by full Kyuubi. He obviously wasn't affected by half of Kyuubi, which affected Minato himself. Hell, up until Part II, Naruto had no trouble with the Kyuubi at all, he was even able to retain control even when Kyuubi saw it fit to help Naruto out when Naruto was aware of it.
    I remember that Naruto was using part of his chakra to keep the Kyuubi contained. Kyuubi always leeked some of its chakra trough. The thing is it was never said why he did it. What we do know is that posibilities to exist. You just whant Kishi to feed you one of them. Perhaps he is going to do so leter or not but as of now its not a plot hole or a bad decision from Minato, its just a reason whe don't know about.
    It can be:

    1-He is low on chakra and he can't seal 100% of the Kyuubi using the normal seal.
    2-He can not contain the Kyuubi long enough for the normal seal to do its thing, remember that half the Kyuubi already impaled Kushina and Minato before Minato finished his thing. If that was 100% Kyuubi...
    3-Naruto would die as he was a baby. As he grew up and the Kyuubi got his mojo back it was a slow thing. Naruto had time to adapt.
    How do you even know the baby was fine after the seal? Did you see him? The only way you did that is if you had more pages in the chapter then me... He was probably better off then Minato as he was an Uzumachi but how well... We don't know. Then as time whent by he could handle the chakra.
    4-Naruto's chakra was not powerfull enough to hold the seal active. Kushi when having a baby was using her mojo to deliver the baby and the seal grew weaker remember?

    I can think of more but what is the point?

  7. #37
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Minato the legendary hokage, did he fail in so many ways?

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Considering he gave Kyuubi to Naruto, the ninja Jesus, Yondaime accomplished a lot more than any other Hokage

    As for the issue of Yondaime's mistakes, I'm gonna address only the Obito one, since the others are pretty much covered by everyone else:

    in light of recent chapters, you can't expect for Obito to be recognised, since the kid surely wore a Zetsu suit when he faced Yondaime ( evidenced by the fact that his left arm, the intact one, still leaked Zetsu goo when hit and it fell off ).
    Also, as the Spiral Zetsu said, by combining Senju and Uchiha powers Obito got a giant power up, managing to do things ( taming the Kyuubi with a 3 tomoe Sharingan for example ) that only a legend like Madara could do.
    Also Obito was dead, and Yondaime didn't know that he obtained the Mangekyo nor that his Mangekyo was a S/T jutsu, so the chances for him to recognise Obito were slim to none.

    The only mistake I see him doing is sealing half the Kyuubi in him and sacrificing his life to seal the other half, he could've just sealed the entire Kyuubi in Naruto, seal a part of Kushina's chakra in him and just be there, as a Hokage and a parent.
    Ninja Jesus...hahaha.

    On a serious note, I am not a fan of Minato's character due to the sole fact that he sacrificed himself to save the village and left his son orphaned with no one to care for him. That is just cruel.

    ---------- Post added at 03:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:20 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    @ Rikudou King,

    Look, I'm not going to argue with you whether it is the right or wrong decision. I'm just saying there are legitimate concerns and reasons for keeping strong ninjas at the village, even it they were only precautionary. Pain's attack actually does show its importance of having strong ninjas at the village because people like Kakashi, Chouji's dad, etc. were able to react and defend the village, even though they failed. Oro also had an entire sand village backing him up or else Konoha, by my estimations, would have defeated the sounds rather convincingly. Regardless of who or what type of attack it is, you can't predict success or failure. You can only strategize your defenses and hope for the best.

    @ Uchiha_Blood,

    Well, since you gave me such a humorous response of fathering Naruto as an accomplishment, I though I give you an equally humorous one of why Minato is a bringer of death and misery. I'm just amazed so many seem to take it seriously. On a serious note though, the village were only untrusting of the Uchihas prior to the Kyuubi attack. They were not pushed to point of rebellion. The heavy spying on the Uchiha began after the Kyuubi attack when the elders suspected them of being responsible for it.

    @ xXan,

    Why so serious? Say it with me, "ha, ha."

    @ M3J,

    Because a full grown Minato already had trouble containing half the Kyuubi. What makes you think a baby Naruto would be able to handle the whole thing?
    Having received second class treatment and no say in the political affairs, segregation doesn't seem a like a plausible reason for coup? Real life has many examples that prove otherwise. People have rebelled many a time for being treated like lesser citizens.

  8. #38
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member chilibun's Avatar
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    Re: Minato the legendary hokage, did he fail in so many ways?

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    Having received second class treatment and no say in the political affairs, segregation doesn't seem a like a plausible reason for coup? Real life has many examples that prove otherwise. People have rebelled many a time for being treated like lesser citizens.
    Except they were not treated as second class citizens. If anything, they were quite respected by village. Even though it was only a ploy to keep the Uchihas out of government affairs, being appointed the Konoha Military Police Force is a prestige and honor, or at least seen as one by the general public or even to some of the Uchiha members. I can't say exactly how they felt at that time, but I doublt it was that miserable considering they waited 7 more years after the Kyuubi attack to make their move.

  9. #39
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Minato the legendary hokage, did he fail in so many ways?

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    Except they were not treated as second class citizens. If anything, they were quite respected by village. Even though it was only a ploy to keep the Uchihas out of government affairs, being appointed the Konoha Military Police Force is a prestige and honor, or at least seen as one by the general public or even to some of the Uchiha members. I can't say exactly how they felt at that time, but I doublt it was that miserable considering they waited 7 more years after the Kyuubi attack to make their move.
    Keeping the founders out of the political affairs is not second class treatment, then what is? They respected them, but didn't hesitate to massacre an entire clan when none of the elders were even sure of the war. They couldn't have engaged in a civilized dialogue to ease the tension between the groups? Sounds like an arbitrary government who chose an easy way out.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member chilibun's Avatar
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    Re: Minato the legendary hokage, did he fail in so many ways?

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    Keeping the founders out of the political affairs is not second class treatment, then what is? They respected them, but didn't hesitate to massacre an entire clan when none of the elders were even sure of the war. They couldn't have engaged in a civilized dialogue to ease the tension between the groups? Sounds like an arbitrary government who chose an easy way out.
    I'm not disagreeing with you that the whole Uchiha/village elder issues are just a "game of thrones". I'm just saying they were't mistreated as second class citizens by the rest of the village and they were also not banned from entering the government. They were given a prestigous responsibility to preoccupy them from entering the main leadership role. Subtleties like that makes a huge difference. It take a lot of commitment from everybody for a full blown rebellion. I don't think they were pushed hard enough prior to the Kyuubi attack to warrant such extremes. Konoha is not a democracy. Its basically a bureaucracy ran by a small number of high officials such as the Kage, Danzou, the 2 other elders. Under such systems, "ciivilized" negotiations are uncommon because the ruling party will do everything they can to maintain their power. "When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die. There is no middle ground."

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    Re: Minato the legendary hokage, did he fail in so many ways?

    By all indications, the theft of their political power had happen recently, meaning that it wasn't as if they were given the military police role in return. They would have had both before the Elders took it away. And the fact that they originally had it meant that Konoha likely wasn't always govern by the Hokage and Elders.

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    MH Senpai 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Uchiha_Blood's Avatar
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    Re: Minato the legendary hokage, did he fail in so many ways?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    By all indications, the theft of their political power had happen recently, meaning that it wasn't as if they were given the military police role in return. They would have had both before the Elders took it away. And the fact that they originally had it meant that Konoha likely wasn't always govern by the Hokage and Elders.
    I think that, by political powers, they meant that Uchihas originally had as much power as Senjus, being the 2 founders clan.
    That was moot when the Elders became the advisors of the Hokage, basically ruling out Uchihas in favour of Senju-oriented people.

    The coup was, if we go by what Koharu said, as a threat to regain political power.
    Maybe they were treated like every other clan, despite being objectively more important than them, being the police corp and all

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Rikudou Sennin's Avatar
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    Re: Minato the legendary hokage, did he fail in so many ways?

    We dont know if Minato would have been able to seal the whole fox into Naruto, moreover, I believe that wasnt his intention at all. I think there is a reason he just sealed the yang (good side) of Kyuubi into Naruto and the evil side into himself. I think in the end, we will see that Minato planned everything ahead. Remember "that jutsu". It must be something important. Jiraiya thought Minato intended Naruto to master "that jutsu" with kyuubis power. Is it just possible with yang chakra? Does it have to be PURE chakra?

    There is more to it than we think.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Minato the legendary hokage, did he fail in so many ways?

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    I'm not disagreeing with you that the whole Uchiha/village elder issues are just a "game of thrones". I'm just saying they were't mistreated as second class citizens by the rest of the village and they were also not banned from entering the government. They were given a prestigous responsibility to preoccupy them from entering the main leadership role. Subtleties like that makes a huge difference. It take a lot of commitment from everybody for a full blown rebellion. I don't think they were pushed hard enough prior to the Kyuubi attack to warrant such extremes. Konoha is not a democracy. Its basically a bureaucracy ran by a small number of high officials such as the Kage, Danzou, the 2 other elders. Under such systems, "ciivilized" negotiations are uncommon because the ruling party will do everything they can to maintain their power. "When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die. There is no middle ground."
    Government policies dictate how the citizens are to be treated, whatever the rest of the village imagines or thinks is not a debatable issue, because they cannot alter the set and staunch political policy set up by the elders, who were obviously hell-bent on keeping the Uchiha clan out of the entire political scene. Just because they were not banned superficially doesn't mean the internal policy was also the same. The way there were no Uchihas in the government set up or had no higher seats proves that it was all just a shenanigan, and Tobi/Obito was right about everything; the whole clan segregation and pro-senju sentiments.

    The clan were the founders, they must have felt that they were being segregated by limiting them to police force only. Like I said; lopsided treatment. Supericially, it seemed like some sort of honour, but internally, it was a method to limit their power. The way the acted rashly to plant a spy there and then wipe out the clan over whimsical reasons proves my point even further.

    I'll call it a tyrannical government; go my way, or die. I think Uchihas made a huge mistake turning their backs on Madara. Their poor decision came back to haunt them decades later.

  15. #45
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Minato the legendary hokage, did he fail in so many ways?

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    I think that, by political powers, they meant that Uchihas originally had as much power as Senjus, being the 2 founders clan.
    That was moot when the Elders became the advisors of the Hokage, basically ruling out Uchihas in favour of Senju-oriented people.

    The coup was, if we go by what Koharu said, as a threat to regain political power.
    Maybe they were treated like every other clan, despite being objectively more important than them, being the police corp and all
    That wouldn't make much sense though, acting after so long. At best, it would have had to be a recent lost, which would fit with what we were told about their treatment after the Kyuubi Assault. The Elders used the Kyuubi as an excuse to discriminate and take their power, causing the Uchiha clan to react in turn with their coup.

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