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Thread: Yamamoto Shigekuni VS Post Dangai Ichigo Kurosaki

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Yamamoto Shigekuni VS Post Dangai Ichigo Kurosaki

    Battle takes place in SS, where Ichigo had his final confrontation with Aizen. All techniques are allowed. Ichigo has all the powers he showed immediately after he completed his dangai training with zangetsu/shirosaki.

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    Re: Yamamoto Shigekuni VS Post Dangai Ichigo Kurosaki

    In my opinion Ichigo destroys him. Yamamoto has four techniques in Bankai yes?

    1) East. The disadvantages of this technique are that he needs to land a hit. He landed 0 hits on Juha Bach. Dangai Ichigo displayed higher base stats so yeah...anyways.

    +The statement he made about it is pretty obviously a hyperbole; if he can destroy anything he cuts, since there were no range restrictions on it, he'd destroy the entire ground upon touching it. Not a portion, but the entirety of the ground. That didn't happen so there are unsaid restrictions on his statement about east. Furthermore, it should still be subject to the laws of reiatsu anyways.

    2) West. It's not an attack, but rather 15 million C of Reiatsu. (Anyone with higher reiatsu than him should get through it and if significantly higher with no problem) Anyways, anyone who has durability at city level or higher should be able to take it. (Since Thermo Nuke's reach tens of millions of degrees at their core; they're basically powered by the same nuclear fusion process as the sun is). Dangai Ichigo displayed a city busting shockwave and then tanked one from Aizen, so he shouldn't have too much trouble getting past it.

    3) South. Zombies, well didn't really work and won't because Yamamoto hasn't killed anyone that Ichigo would possibly be hung up by. Oh and it seems like those skeletons were kind of fodder to guys of their level.

    4) North. No idea what it does, but unless it's significantly more broken than those above it's not going to make much of a difference.

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    Re: Yamamoto Shigekuni VS Post Dangai Ichigo Kurosaki

    Well, that's an interesting fight.
    Even though I'm an Ichigo fan, I would still say that Bankai against Bankai I would give a victory to Yama as his Bankai gave me much deeper impact, than Ichigo's completed Banaki that he used against Aizen. Ichigo without Mugetsu can't break Yama's insane defense here and can't defend himself from unstopable incineration from Yama's swing.
    Still, with Mugetsu I can see Ichigo winning if he uses his Final Getsuga Tenshou fusing with his Zan, but it will be a one-shot move. If Ichi misses or Yama manages to make Mugetsu weaker with his Bankai's ultimate defense to some degree, than Ichi will be doomed.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member cracker's Avatar
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    Re: Yamamoto Shigekuni VS Post Dangai Ichigo Kurosaki

    Quote Originally Posted by CeroOskuraz View Post
    In my opinion Ichigo destroys him. Yamamoto has four techniques in Bankai yes?

    1) East. The disadvantages of this technique are that he needs to land a hit. He landed 0 hits on Juha Bach. Dangai Ichigo displayed higher base stats so yeah...anyways.

    +The statement he made about it is pretty obviously a hyperbole; if he can destroy anything he cuts, since there were no range restrictions on it, he'd destroy the entire ground upon touching it. Not a portion, but the entirety of the ground. That didn't happen so there are unsaid restrictions on his statement about east. Furthermore, it should still be subject to the laws of reiatsu anyways.

    2) West. It's not an attack, but rather 15 million C of Reiatsu. (Anyone with higher reiatsu than him should get through it and if significantly higher with no problem) Anyways, anyone who has durability at city level or higher should be able to take it. (Since Thermo Nuke's reach tens of millions of degrees at their core; they're basically powered by the same nuclear fusion process as the sun is). Dangai Ichigo displayed a city busting shockwave and then tanked one from Aizen, so he shouldn't have too much trouble getting past it.

    3) South. Zombies, well didn't really work and won't because Yamamoto hasn't killed anyone that Ichigo would possibly be hung up by. Oh and it seems like those skeletons were kind of fodder to guys of their level.

    4) North. No idea what it does, but unless it's significantly more broken than those above it's not going to make much of a difference.
    North seems to be a concentrated projectile form of East. He steps away from Juha Bach (clone lol) and attacks. Where it connects, it disintegrates. At least that's what I figured.

    I think Yama would fair better against Aizen without regeneration. However against Ichigo, pretty pointless. Ichigo wins.

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    Re: Yamamoto Shigekuni VS Post Dangai Ichigo Kurosaki

    Ichigo definately destroys him . He outclasses yama in everything basically. Tanking nukes with little damage,busting half a mountain with windpressure,stopping strikes that create craters,slappin away fully powered hadou's in the 90's,blitzing hogyoku aizen. then nearly cutting a guy in half that actually managed to take a direct slash from from a guy that can erase a mountain with mere windpressure. Yeah yama is definately outclassed here.

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    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Tenacious Weezy's Avatar
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    Re: Yamamoto Shigekuni VS Post Dangai Ichigo Kurosaki

    Ok truth is truth but in a case where two fighters have not fought each other you must take feats into account and not imagery feats (crushing mountains and such) but a comparison to other fighters as well as said things (characters always speak truths or at the very least opinions which should be taken as an authors opinion as well from that characters POV.

    Aizen did not want to fight the general commander with his soul slayer.

    This is said by Aizen himself in terms that the general commander would be stronger or more powerful as a fighter with his soul slayer, he also goes as far as to create an espada level creature just to neutralize his soul slayer. The general commander then goes on to beat the breaks out that same espada, then tank his entire bankai himself and then still has the power (although it could have had more to do with the sacrifice) to produce a high level kidou spell. Yes Aizen survived the final attack fairly easily but he completely avoided the bankai.

    Bach beat the general commander but only by stealing his bankai.

    The general commander fought a fake Bach and demolished him in every way however it means nothing because it was still a fake. However Bach never fought the general commander until after he stole his bankai. Now imagine the general commander fighting Wonderweiss with one arm. Who wins?

    Ichigo never beat Transcendant Aizen.

    Urahara did. Ichigo weakened him enough for the wish ball to lose it's faith Aizen and bring him down to level that kidou could work on him. Now while that is an accomplishment compared to what most had did at that point it means nothing if Ichigo LOST HIS POWERS because of it and would have been killed if not for Urahara. If the feat of cutting him in half is enough please realize Isshin, Yourichi, and Gin all finished Aizen off as well.

    I am aware that Aizen was like on hollow mode on dangai Ichigo which would mean something if he had fought anyone else but just like people saying Ulqy in resurrection mode was better than 4? Prove it. Well you can't, fighting a person who can never be judged (Ichigo) and then losing to the strongest mode of them (full hollow and mugetsu) leaves hollow mode Aizen on the unscalable corner (which Bleach has too much of)

    With the two at full power I'm leaning towards the general commander. Ichigo has a speed that is likely unmatched and his strength to break kidou is amazing, he can also tank a bit although his arm was still pretty charred after the Aizen blast. However, I don't see him getting through the fire armor at all and I also believe at full power the general commander releases a ton more heat. Everybody in soul society felt the pressure of his attacks and he was on some kind if time limit before it destroyed soul society (recall the Reason why he tanked his Bankai in KT). However The final GT attack Ichigo pulls off would likely destroy the armor. However I'm imagining Yamamoto blocking the attack by unleashing his own cutting attack at full power. At that point Ichigo is done and Yamamoto is about to let some burning skeletons decapitate him.

    I know I sound crazy but I'm being within reason of feats not just belief. Ichigo has always been fast and precise but never overpowering and The Aizen that lost to Ichigo had been harmed by others before, had never went bankai, and forgot about his shikai completely. I still believe it was the resolution in ichigos reiatsu that beat Aizen more than its actual power (I can't sense his reiatsu?) /rant

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Yamamoto Shigekuni VS Post Dangai Ichigo Kurosaki

    Quote Originally Posted by Tenacious Weezy View Post
    I know I sound crazy but I'm being within reason of feats not just belief. Ichigo has always been fast and precise but never overpowering and The Aizen that lost to Ichigo had been harmed by others before, had never went bankai, and forgot about his shikai completely. I still believe it was the resolution in ichigos reiatsu that beat Aizen more than its actual power (I can't sense his reiatsu?) /rant
    The Aizen that lost to Ichigo wasn't harmed by others. That form only fought with Ichigo, so, that doesn't hold true. He indeed didn't want to rely on his Zanpakuto power any more, but it was because he thought he was already well above his Shinigami limits, which was a correct assessment. The reason why Aizen couldn't sense his reiatsu was Ichigo's incomparably higher reiatsu after the training.

    It is difficult to compare transcendent beings to the likes of Captain-Commander and Bach, considering the only fight that involved the transcendent beings had them face each other. We just have to go by Aizen's words and he's well above a scalable Shinigami power. So, in this case, we can't base anything on comparable feats, since there isn't any data to base and draw a common comparison.

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    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Tenacious Weezy's Avatar
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    Re: Yamamoto Shigekuni VS Post Dangai Ichigo Kurosaki

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    The Aizen that lost to Ichigo wasn't harmed by others. That form only fought with Ichigo, so, that doesn't hold true. He indeed didn't want to rely on his Zanpakuto power any more, but it was because he thought he was already well above his Shinigami limits, which was a correct assessment. The reason why Aizen couldn't sense his reiatsu was Ichigo's incomparably higher reiatsu after the training.

    It is difficult to compare transcendent beings to the likes of Captain-Commander and Bach, considering the only fight that involved the transcendent beings had them face each other. We just have to go by Aizen's words and he's well above a scalable Shinigami power. So, in this case, we can't base anything on comparable feats, since there isn't any data to base and draw a common comparison.
    Your right about that Aizen never fighting anyone I think what I was really trying to say was that his regeneration carried him through more than his actual speed or strength. If everyone is cutting through him then I don't see a way to gauge ichigos mugetsu accurately. I know what Aizen said about not feeling his reiatsu and I think there's more to it that's all. It's really weird that KT mentioned something like that and has yet to explain it, he may or may not in the end like so many other unfinished ideas he's put up but I kind of ignore for now since in honesty it made no sense in the grand scheme of the story (kind of like fullbringers, Orihimes powers, or that wishing ball) it was more of a hype thing KT does and then farts away still point made.

    Your last statement though is false we may not be able to use feat vs feat basis but I listed scenarios that prove that Yamamoto had more going for him, he's also said he's the strongest shinigami ever. Obviously Aizen and Ichigo aren't just shinigami but Aizen had regen going for him. For Ichigo his fight is not so easily won because of "base stats" or his speed. I'll repeat this Yamamoto never went full power using bankai! He went on a stage by stage basis with the main idea to embarrass Bach. Everyone was worried that he might destroy soul society because of his reiatsu, I don't think Ichigo could have done that on his Transcendant power alone.

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Yamamoto Shigekuni VS Post Dangai Ichigo Kurosaki

    Quote Originally Posted by Tenacious Weezy View Post
    Your last statement though is false we may not be able to use feat vs feat basis but I listed scenarios that prove that Yamamoto had more going for him, he's also said he's the strongest shinigami ever. Obviously Aizen and Ichigo aren't just shinigami but Aizen had regen going for him. For Ichigo his fight is not so easily won because of "base stats" or his speed. I'll repeat this Yamamoto never went full power using bankai! He went on a stage by stage basis with the main idea to embarrass Bach. Everyone was worried that he might destroy soul society because of his reiatsu, I don't think Ichigo could have done that on his Transcendant power alone.
    Actually, what Aizen didn't want to deal with wasn't Captain-Commander's Bankai. It was his Shikai, knowing that he won't be going all out to burn the entire dimension into ashes by using Bankai. Shinigami Aizen was inferior to Captain-Commander by looking from any perspective, aside from intellect, and he used his forte to take him out of equation.
    It's true that with Zanka no Tachi, he wasn't trying to destroy everything around him if going full power is what it means. Ichigo probably one had one technique to use in his transcendent state, aside from out of charts melee combat, so, he might not be able to cause such a destruction in similar fashion, but that's hardly important on a one-on-one fight. What it matters is whether Captain-Commander could tank one of Ichigo's attacks or not with his reiatsu. Ichigo cut Butterflaizen, and the likes of Isshin were unable to read Aizen's reiatsu beginning with chrysalis stage, therefore, they weren't even anywhere around that power. I can't say where Captain-Commander stands in this for sure, but he shouldn't be able to feel Butterflaizen's reiatsu, to say the least. Bearing that in my mind, I can't see him defeating Ichigo.

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    Re: Yamamoto Shigekuni VS Post Dangai Ichigo Kurosaki

    A tough call but I would say that Ichigo stomps fairly hard.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Xerneas's Avatar
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    Re: Yamamoto Shigekuni VS Post Dangai Ichigo Kurosaki

    Its not a tough call at all. Ichigo stomps no-diff. And y'all know how much I love Yamamoto-dono. I'm surprised kkck made such a topic because its pretty silly honestly. Maybe he just wants to see what people say? Lol.

    Its really not that unreasonable to think that full power Yama's reiatsu could actually be as big as Butterflaizen and Abominaizen. Maybe even more! Cuz he's way ahead of normal Aizen. His reiatsu could have destroyed all of SS! But it just wasn't that Butterflaizen's reiatsu was huge, it was that it was in a different dimension too. Transcendent reiatsu has that special property. And yet we all saw what happened to Aizen. The most he could do was burn Ichigo's arm with his ultimate cero move, in his abomination mode, and Kurosaki just healed the damage anyways. Butterflaizen mode was helpless.

    Yama would do even less damage (ie: NONE) with his moves because he is just a normal - albeit frighteningly strong - Shinigami. Gin was only able to injure Aizen because the guy purposely lowered the dimension of his reiatsu back down to the Shinigami dimension.

    So, none of Yamamoto's attacks would do anything. AT ALL. Ichigo would stop his 15 mil degree blade with his bare hands and then one-shot him with a slash like His Majesty did (granted that was done after Yama used up a ton of power already).
    Last edited by Xerneas; July 27, 2014 at 12:00 PM.

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    Re: Yamamoto Shigekuni VS Post Dangai Ichigo Kurosaki

    Well to the defense of Yamamoto I would like to add these points.

    1. We don't know exactly how transcendent reaitsu actually works. We definitely know that an ordinary shinigami/hollow can't sense them, but as far as damaging them we can't know for sure. Gin, Urahara and even Yoruichi managed to damage and wound Aizen while he was transcending or transcendent.

    2. Physical damage and physics work on them. Fall damage, extreme heat etc works on everybody. Nobody is immune to physics in the manga.

    Ordinary shinigami, hollow and quincies could potentially damage transcendent beings but they would need be to on a completely different scale of power. Bruteforcing works every time and on everyone. That's the ironclad rule of shonen manga/comic.

    ALSO, let's not forget that current Ichigo is potentially transcendent. His hollow/shinigami and even quincy powers are in perfect harmony now and as far as we can tell he can be damaged.

    But still, even if we consider transcendent beings to be capable of being damaged by ordinary folks, Ichigo stomps Yamamoto because he is extremely powerful physically. Surpassing the best feats of Yamamoto by miles. The only reason why Yamamotos Bankai could destroy SS was because of it's physical properties. Prolong exposure to extreme heat can have devastating results on the climate of a planet, especially considering that a single nuclear bomb (like Tsar Bomb) effected the climate globally.

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Yamamoto Shigekuni VS Post Dangai Ichigo Kurosaki

    Quote Originally Posted by Xerneas View Post
    Its really not that unreasonable to think that full power Yama's reiatsu could actually be as big as Butterflaizen and Abominaizen. Maybe even more! Cuz he's way ahead of normal Aizen. His reiatsu could have destroyed all of SS! But it just wasn't that Butterflaizen's reiatsu was huge, it was that it was in a different dimension too. Transcendent reiatsu has that special property.
    I don't quite get what special property you might be referring to. There isn't much point in reading into the word "transcendent". It just denotes the level of reiatsu a transcendent being possesses is far more above what could a normal Shinigami could possibly have.
    Therefore, I don't think Captain Commander was around transcendent Aizen's level of reiatsu.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Xerneas's Avatar
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    Re: Yamamoto Shigekuni VS Post Dangai Ichigo Kurosaki

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    I don't quite get what special property you might be referring to. There isn't much point in reading into the word "transcendent". It just denotes the level of reiatsu a transcendent being possesses is far more above what could a normal Shinigami could possibly have.
    Therefore, I don't think Captain Commander was around transcendent Aizen's level of reiatsu.
    Special property is that lower level beings cannot interact with them unless they want it. Aizen explained this (before he lost his mind and started rambling). So I believe what he said. And we actually saw it. Ichigo literally waved away his full powered Black Coffin like nothin. Thats because Aizen's reiatsu couldn't do anything to him. He was not in the same "dimension" as him. When he went abomination mode he was able to do something, because his dimension went up a level. But not that much damage because he was still not in the same place as Ichigo.

    ...I think people confuse this "level" with the amount of reiatsu the person has. They are NOT the same thing. Like when Aizen got pwned by Gin thats because he lowered his level down to the Shinigami level. But his amount of reiatsu didn't change. It was so massive everybody but Gin was getting crushed without Aizen even concentrating/flexing his reiatsu at them. So yeah Yamamoto could have a similar AMOUNT of reiatsu, but he could never be on that "level" of reiatsu.

    ...Urahara/Isshin/Yoruichi weren't able to damage Aizen. They dented his outer cocoon not his actual body. Isshin even explained that they couldn't do anything and only somebody in the same place (dimension) as him could. I already explained why Gin did actual damage....

    ---------- Post added at 04:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:48 PM ----------

    EDIT: Quincy might have something to say about all this though. When you think about it they have the strongest power in all of Bleachverse. The ability to control reishi. Thats like fundamental control of the matter of the universe. So a sufficiently powerful Quincy (Yhwach) might be able to fight a transcendent being even if he is not one himself. Cause even a transcendent being is made of spiritrons. This is just a theory now but if say Yhwach used Sklaverei he might be able to absorb all that transcendent power for himself!

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Yamamoto Shigekuni VS Post Dangai Ichigo Kurosaki

    Quote Originally Posted by Xerneas View Post
    Special property is that lower level beings cannot interact with them unless they want it. Aizen explained this (before he lost his mind and started rambling). So I believe what he said. And we actually saw it. Ichigo literally waved away his full powered Black Coffin like nothin. Thats because Aizen's reiatsu couldn't do anything to him. He was not in the same "dimension" as him. When he went abomination mode he was able to do something, because his dimension went up a level. But not that much damage because he was still not in the same place as Ichigo.

    ...I think people confuse this "level" with the amount of reiatsu the person has. They are NOT the same thing. Like when Aizen got pwned by Gin thats because he lowered his level down to the Shinigami level. But his amount of reiatsu didn't change. It was so massive everybody but Gin was getting crushed without Aizen even concentrating/flexing his reiatsu at them. So yeah Yamamoto could have a similar AMOUNT of reiatsu, but he could never be on that "level" of reiatsu.

    ...Urahara/Isshin/Yoruichi weren't able to damage Aizen. They dented his outer cocoon not his actual body. Isshin even explained that they couldn't do anything and only somebody in the same place (dimension) as him could. I already explained why Gin did actual damage....
    I don't see how this is any different than pure "reiatsu level", sorry.

    To begin with, "everyone" that was getting crushed were high school boys and girls, not Shinigami. Aizen simply did not release the whole potential of reiatsu he has. That alone, of course, is enough to crush your ordinary human being with ease. With that clarified, I have difficulty in understanding the distinction between "amount" and "level" you use here. Being in the same place/dimension merely accounts to having a reiatsu of similar amount. I don't think there is a reason to believe there was a literal meaning behind those words. If anything, yeah, we can theorize and say they existed somewhere outside this very dimension's boundaries, but to me, it'd be like an imaginary fact that doesn't exist anywhere in the story at most.
    Actually, even that would be a stretch if we were to delve deeper. If two beings are literally in separate "dimensions", hiearchy is out of question. There cannot be any interaction in between.

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