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Thread: Yamamoto Shigekuni vs Aizen Sosuke

  1. #31
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Yamamoto Shigekuni vs Aizen Sosuke

    Quote Originally Posted by exacta View Post
    No, no, you don't get my point or logic at all..... first off, Yama's reiatsu IS the heat, and that can destroy Soul Society, and that temperature is so hot you can't even see it unless he wants you to.
    Yeah and the top four Espada just releasing can destroy Las Noches despite nothing of the sort happening in FKT when they were released. Statements of this kind are hyperboles.

    Quote Quote:
    If Aizen's reiatsu was that dangerous, it would've had a similiar effect on Karakura Town, and it didn't.

    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/bleach/v37/c317.1/2.html
    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/bleach/v37/c317.1/3.html
    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/bleach/v37/c317.1/4.html

    Quote Quote:
    Aizen's shikai doesn't work on Yama, because Yama can just toast everything around him, he doesn't NEED to see Aizen, and if it's Bankai, Aizen can't touch him.
    It's really clear that you're somewhat biased towards Yama. Oh well, I seriously doubt he's going to kill Aizen if he spreads out his power that much. And remember EJ took the amount of time many Captains and Vizards could buy to prep.

    Quote Quote:
    If you think Aizen can defeat Yama with his shikai, well then you should just remember that Aizen himself wouldn't agree with you, that's why he made Wonderweiss. That's my logic, and if you go by it, the other characters stand no chance, because they aren't Yamamoto lol.
    And Yama used his Captains and Vizards to buy time for him to prep Ennetsu Jigoku (which he couldn't have prepped if they didn't stall Aizen as cannon fodder). Hardly sounds like a fair 1 to 1 fight to me under either circmstance.

    Oh yeah, this is base Aizen we're talking about, not before the Hog transformations kicked in. If you're going to talk about what Aizen predicted, well he DIDN'T predict 3rd form and above so using his words as some sort of proof that Yama > Hog Aizen isn't valid. It's really that simple.

    Also, some food for thought: at the center of nuclear bombs, or actually any explosion with the power to take out a city, the temperature reaches up to ten million degrees at the core. Just sayin', certain Bleach characters have tanked attacks that can destroy a city. In fact Ichigo's wiped out a mountain with the Ken'atsu of his slash which y'know, is a nuke level feat (reducing that much rock to smoke takes around the amount of power you'd need to destroy a city). Yeah, his Ken'atsu was nuke-level. And then he tanked Aizen's fragor, which is also nuke level.

  2. #32
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member cracker's Avatar
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    Re: Yamamoto Shigekuni vs Aizen Sosuke

    You know an extra 5 million degrees is a lot right....10 mil and 15 mil are like night and day. Without regeneration on Aizen, I see Yama with a fighting chance.
    Most of the early transcendent crap came from a Aizen that was insane... well delusional is a better word. He was talking a lot of BS.

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  4. #33
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    Re: Yamamoto Shigekuni vs Aizen Sosuke

    Quote Originally Posted by cracker View Post
    You know an extra 5 million degrees is a lot right....10 mil and 15 mil are like night and day. Without regeneration on Aizen, I see Yama with a fighting chance.
    Most of the early transcendent crap came from a Aizen that was insane... well delusional is a better word. He was talking a lot of BS.
    He was talking a lot of BS? Really? That's the excuse people wanna give?

    Ok explain this, why did Aizen destroy the Koutotsu (a being described by Gin & Isshin to be beyond shinigamis power) with reiatsu? http://www.mangapanda.com/94-53161-5...apter-407.html http://www.mangapanda.com/94-53161-6...apter-407.html http://www.mangapanda.com/94-53161-1...apter-407.html

    Normally the response to this question for those you think it's BS is another question to deviate from the phenomenon that occurred such as, 'if Aizen is such a transcended & he wasn't making it up, how come he was hurt by Gin?'. By now this question should have gotten old. What part of, his reiatsu was purposely lowered to the point where Ichigo's friends & ordinary humans (who have reiatsu) can comprehend it do you not understand? http://www.mangapanda.com/94-56926-1...apter-417.html
    http://www.mangapanda.com/94-57474-1...apter-420.html

    What part of Ichigo's friends & Aizen (who is also is a transcendant) being unable to comprehend Ichigo's reiatsu (because he didn't lower it like Aizen did) do you not understand? http://www.mangapanda.com/94-56926-1...apter-417.html

    What part of "when spiritual beings collide, the weaker side with weaker reiatsu will get hurt" do you not understand?
    http://www.mangapanda.com/94-559-7/b...apter-105.html
    What part of you must subconsciously releash reiatsu to be able to withstand & pushback attacks (something Aizen did not do against Gin because he purposely lowered his guard by deactivating his transcendant reiatsu for mere humans to feel) do you not understand?

    Kubo went through the troubles of introducing a new concept backed up with solid proof/facts/evidence & the fans called it BS? Pls Cracker, explain why you call it BS given all the things that was said above?

    ---------- Post added at 05:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:27 AM ----------

    Actually did I say a new concept? Scatch that, it was introduced since the beginning of the manga. Remember how humans (with no reiatsu) are unable to comprehend a shinigami's power? Remember when Ichigo trained with Mr Hat & Clogs to achieve his zanpakuto but during that training it was explained to us that a normal weapon ain't hurting a shinigami? Remember how Mr Hot & Clog then explained that Ichigo is correct but his berihime is in fact not a normal weapon but Zanpakuto therefore capable of hurting Ichigo? It's not a new concept at all. It actually a very old one. Aizen & Ichigo just raised the level, It's that simple.

    I have said this before in the "The Concept of "Transcendentality"" thread & I will say it again. "The context of the manga & how characters are portrayed is far more important than concentrating on petty quantities like how hot or how cold a character is."
    Last edited by Kay3795; November 20, 2012 at 01:25 AM.

  5. #34
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    Re: Yamamoto Shigekuni vs Aizen Sosuke

    Hmmmm...the same Aizen also said this

    http://www.mangapanda.com/94-56926-1...apter-417.html
    http://www.mangapanda.com/94-56926-1...apter-417.html
    http://www.mangapanda.com/94-56926-1...apter-417.html

    and this (lol)...discarded
    http://www.mangapanda.com/94-57111-5...apter-418.html

    and this, where he argues impossibilities(lol)

    http://www.mangapanda.com/94-57111-1...apter-418.html

    It's interesting also how Ichigo questions his reasoning abilities....lol
    I think I'm in the right when I question his reasoning or sanity lol

    I guess though, that since Ginjo did mention the idea of becoming transcendent albeit somewhat different circumstances it's very likely a legit thing...

    Bleach has stated more than once, that battles are essentially reiatsu vs reiatsu...yet other than the time when Ichigo attacked Kenpachi, Chad attacked Nnoitra and when Kenpachi initially started against Nnoitra there aren't any other instances where someone uses a higher reiatsu to effectively and completely cancel out an attack. And in those instances, there were special circumstances. Ichigo was weaker and untrained in effectively controlling spirit pressure output (plus Kenpachi emits alot of spirit pressure subconsciously), Chad was weaker and Nnoitra had the strongest steel skin out of all the Arrancar and Kenpachi had to adjust to Nnoitra's skin, which really meant he had to adjust his spirit pressure output in order to hurt him. Even when Soifon attacked Aizen that's debatable since it's generally accepted that he was using KS the whole time...it's likely she hit air or something.

    Look at the battle with Ichigo vs Aizen...even though Ichigo was above Aizen he still took damage from himj when he attacked his arm...why is that...he was so much stronger.

    Note what I said about Yamma vs Aizen...although it's likely that in the end Aizen was indeed stronger, it was not so that he could not be harmed by a "lower" being...giving the opinion I'm sure Yamma could hurt him but if he has regeneration Yamma couldn't kill him. Being strong or even stronger is good but sometimes what really matters the most in Bleach fights is finding an opening and exploiting it... Rukia vs A.A, Tousen vs his Lieutenant, Shunsui vs Stark etc.

    About the train thing...your question shouldn't be why...but how right? I mean because we know the why....

    About your last part...spirit beings hurt by other means as well...

    http://www.mangareader.net/94-463-20...chapter-9.html

  6. #35
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member jimtors's Avatar
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    Re: Yamamoto Shigekuni vs Aizen Sosuke

    I will try to quote Shinsui here, The guys who is saying in a logical way that Yama-jii will lose to Aizen, well, listen! With Yama-Jii, that Logic wont work!

    http://www.mangareader.net/bleach/506/11
    look at this

  7. #36
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    Re: Yamamoto Shigekuni vs Aizen Sosuke

    Your post would have had so much more impact if he didn't actually die shortly afterwards lol

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  9. #37
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    Re: Yamamoto Shigekuni vs Aizen Sosuke

    Quote Originally Posted by jimtors View Post
    I will try to quote Shinsui here, The guys who is saying in a logical way that Yama-jii will lose to Aizen, well, listen! With Yama-Jii, that Logic wont work!

    http://www.mangareader.net/bleach/506/11
    look at this
    Yeah no, only if he didn't die
    Yamamoto got tricked badly, and twice too

    As for Yamamoto hurting him... Well nah, look at Ichigo who was above Aizen, he took an attack that made an insanely huge explosion and crater, which we've never seen before, and only his arm was a bit harmed, not even too much

    Yamamoto just cannot win against Godizen, two different beings standing on two different places, that's all I have to say


    Quote Quote:
    Well, on the subject of which transcendental form aizen has I was intentionally ambiguous on the matter. I can't really point to a link however I recall reading that the last databook said that aizen at some point started evolving however each evolution actually made him weaker. I think it said that the hollow like form was weaker than the butterfly form but I just can't confirm what exactly the facts are here. My idea with the thread was that people would have a place to discuss aizen at his strongest against the full might of yamamoto. The alternative would be to create a a thread for every form aizen had (cocoon, post cocoon, butterfly and hollowish) which seem impractical. So on the subject of which form of aizen to consider here just use whichever you believe to be the strongest one so far. I hope that makes sense to everyone.
    Was such a thing really mentioned ? Makes me think that Ichigo using Mugetsu was even dumber than I what I originally thought... It wouldn't make sense that Cocoon Aizen was stronger than Butterfly Aizen tho, but meh
    Last edited by Zehahaha; November 22, 2012 at 08:30 AM.

  10. #38
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    Re: Yamamoto Shigekuni vs Aizen Sosuke

    Apparently his arm was rendered useless at that point...

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    Re: Yamamoto Shigekuni vs Aizen Sosuke

    Quote Originally Posted by cracker View Post
    Apparently his arm was rendered useless at that point...
    Seems like he's still able to move his arm, and doesn't he felt pain either, so I don't think it's useless

  12. #40
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    Re: Yamamoto Shigekuni vs Aizen Sosuke

    I was just quoting Aizen, paraphrasing but I guess he was wrong...again. He was wrong a lot in those days lol
    Most likely to what he meant was that Ichigo couldn't effectively use the arm anymore... Meh I'm probably grasping lol

  13. #41
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member exacta's Avatar
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    Re: Yamamoto Shigekuni vs Aizen Sosuke

    Quote Originally Posted by CeroOskuraz View Post

    It's really clear that you're somewhat biased towards Yama. Oh well, I seriously doubt he's going to kill Aizen if he spreads out his power that much. And remember EJ took the amount of time many Captains and Vizards could buy to prep.
    .
    Not biased at all actually. Up until Yama actually showed his Bankai I always imagined Aizen would have the advantage. Now I absolutely don't see it. And there's no point arguing who would win in a shikai fight. Aizen bet's against his own victory, this reminds me of when certain Libertarians always insist Ron Paul has a good chance, even when Ron Paul appears on TV and outright says he has no chance and winning isn't the point of his campaign. Non sequitur, I know, just reminded me of it.

    You should look at what FKT looked like after the battle. It looks like the top Espada fought there. It was in shambles.That wasn't an exaggeration, based on what Ulquiorra and Yammy showed they can do, and what happened to FKT, there's no questioning the logic behind them being forbidden to release under the dome. Also, the captains actually reacted to Yama's Bankai, Shunsui's lips got chapped, Hitsu's Bankai immediatley melted, and everything his sword touched disintegrated immediatley. Regeneration doesn't matter in a battle like that if Yama disintegrates the whole body. Yama doesn't BS, SS was definitely in danger. I still don't see how Aizen can even hurt Yama in Bankai. I don't give a crap, its 15 million degrees.

  14. #42
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Zehahaha's Avatar
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    Re: Yamamoto Shigekuni vs Aizen Sosuke

    @exacta

    I remember Soi Fong saying that Homonka can only be cancelled is she wished to do it... Yet Aizen did it himself just by his reiatsu
    15 Million degree or not, it means shit if there's a huge gap of reiatsu between two people

    This is not base Aizen, this is Godizen we're talking about here, Godizen, a being far superior from any Shinigami, Hollow, Arrancar we've ever seen

  15. #43
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Schabrak's Avatar
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    Re: Yamamoto Shigekuni vs Aizen Sosuke

    Until just a couple chapters later, when we've seen a being even stronger appear. Aizen was more smart ass than smart later on, thus I can't take much of his words for certain. And now we've even seen the Royals Guards mocking the most senior captains, people Aizen didn't even knew, he wasn't able to judge.

    Is this match und starting with Yama being under KS already? If yes, that would be highly unfair.

    Judging how Bach was a puss... had stolen the Bankai for his own purposes, as well as his famous words 'nobody stronger than me was born in the last thousand years' hold some truth, I will keep siding with Genryuusei.


    kkck: Early on you mention 'Aizen being able to destroy the. Dangai train, something Yamamoto was never capable to.' Where did you get the information with him every even trying?
    Last edited by Schabrak; November 26, 2012 at 04:57 AM.
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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Yamamoto Shigekuni vs Aizen Sosuke

    The ,manga has stated as fact that reiatsu could not destroy the train and the train basically transcended the world's ordinary physics. The manga pointed out shinigami, reiatsu, can't do a thing to it and yamamoto is a shinigami who uses reiatsu.

  17. #45
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Yamamoto Shigekuni vs Aizen Sosuke

    Quote Originally Posted by Zehahaha View Post
    @exacta

    I remember Soi Fong saying that Homonka can only be cancelled is she wished to do it... Yet Aizen did it himself just by his reiatsu
    15 Million degree or not, it means shit if there's a huge gap of reiatsu between two people

    This is not base Aizen, this is Godizen we're talking about here, Godizen, a being far superior from any Shinigami, Hollow, Arrancar we've ever seen
    Did Aizen cancel the Homonka? I thought his reiatsu made it impossible for the attack to reach his body initially. It's more like countered, rather than cancelled.
    And the fact that the Dangai train cannot be destroyed is based on the Shinigami's perception only. No one would even try that, as it's required to be in Dangai, anyway.
    I suppose Aizen destroyed it purely with the aid of his reiatsu. What else he could have used is a completely vague concept.

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