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Thread: Yamamoto Shigekuni vs Aizen Sosuke

  1. #91
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Tonix's Avatar
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    Re: Yamamoto Shigekuni vs Aizen Sosuke

    Honestly I was way more impressed by Yama's Bankai than FGT or anything Butterflai-chan showed.

    It doesn't matter that Ai-chan can heal himself, getting burned alive still hurts, and Yama could just keep burning him until he lost the will to fight or the Hogyoku rejects him for getting his ass kicked too hard. Ai-chan is not someone who strikes me as someone who has a high tolerance for pain, or the will to keep inflicting immense pain unto his own body just for the sake of a fight, where as Yama is the type who will still try to fight when his arm and legs are cut off.
    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    PS. To bad you are not 4 years older and living in my country as i would love to exchange ideas over a drink :P
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  2. #92
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity jaymizzo's Avatar
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    Re: Yamamoto Shigekuni vs Aizen Sosuke

    Quote Originally Posted by Zehahaha View Post
    He created WW with the purpose of sealing RJ's flames, nothing else, he wasn't expecting WW to win, he was expecting it to seal the flames, which it did, and not only that, he even managed to make Yamamoto take the full power of Ennetsu Jigoku
    The Goodbye Yamamoto Genryuusai implied otherwise. He expected that Yama would be useless without his flames and he was proven wrong. Also, its quite retarded what that led to, Yama was prepared to destroy all of FKT yet he passed up the opportunity of killing off Aizen with it. blah.

    Quote Quote:
    It's an easy way considering he had the Hogyoku with him, he just created an Arrancar for that sole purpose, that's nothing too hard for Aizen at all
    He also had the Hogyouku to heal him if he ever recieved damage and had all those transformations awaiting, he could simply have decided to tank Yama if he believed he was capable of it. Did he? No. Instead he created something to give himself an advantage... Which did not really last long.

    ---------- Post added at 02:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:11 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by metalia View Post
    Well I think Butterflyzen vs Yamamoto is already settled. I think to some extent everyone agrees that Aizen would win in this situation. That's why I tried to discuss the Base Aizen vs Yamamoto situation.

    My point about WW was just to state that, to me, Aizen will always find a way to overcome the difference of power between yama and him, using his intelligence. Aizen won that fight, but I don't think it was thanks to WW, it was thanks to the fact that Aizen outsmarted Yama, and I think he would do so again, and again, and again. That's what I'm trying to say. Aizen's Intelligence > Yama's sheer power. I think that's what the manga tried to show. "Brain over brawn" people would say.
    The only reason it is settled is because of immortality. Like has been said, Yama could literally destroy Aizen continuously and he would keep coming back thanks to the Hogyouku (no feat of his own). So in the long run, Aizen wins through sheer endurance and immortality. If the fight was decided on who is destroyed first, Yama would win IMO both scenarios.
    "Man hands misery onto man" - Philip Larkin

  3. #93
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member metalia's Avatar
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    Re: Yamamoto Shigekuni vs Aizen Sosuke

    Quote Originally Posted by jaymizzo View Post
    The only reason it is settled is because of immortality. Like has been said, Yama could literally destroy Aizen continuously and he would keep coming back thanks to the Hogyouku (no feat of his own).
    But you still seem to deny the fact that Aizen won that battle, and it wasn't because of the Hogyoku, at least I didn't see him using it. What I saw was Aizen winning Yama with his intelligence.

    You also said that Yama could literally destroy Aizen continuously. I doubt it, since the only thing I've seen about Yama that could "destroy" Aizen, is Enetsu Jigoku, and that ability can only be performed once at the cost of Yama's own life. So no, not "continously".

    And that would only happen if Aizen gives Yama the opportunity to use Enetsu Jigoku, since Aizen could have easily beheaded Yama instead of piercing his stomach, but we all know Aizen likes to show off too much.

    And the Hogyoku is indeed a feat of his own. To be honest, I consider the Hogyoku a real manifestation of Aizen's power, a power created by him, not "given for free" like the zanpaktoh power, which is almost an underserved present given to characters and has nothing to do with their actual talent (like Uchiha's Sharingan if you watch Naruto).

    Quote Originally Posted by jaymizzo View Post
    So in the long run, Aizen wins through sheer endurance and immortality. If the fight was decided on who is destroyed first, Yama would win IMO both scenarios.
    In the long run, Yama MAY, just may destroy Aizen once by sacrificing himself. And this would pretty much require Aizen to sit around waiting for enetsu jigoku. But even if it happened, yes, he would heal using Hogyoku and Yama would be dead.

  4. #94
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity jaymizzo's Avatar
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    Re: Yamamoto Shigekuni vs Aizen Sosuke

    Quote Originally Posted by metalia View Post
    But you still seem to deny the fact that Aizen won that battle, and it wasn't because of the Hogyoku, at least I didn't see him using it. What I saw was Aizen winning Yama with his intelligence.
    Wait what? Aizen won what battle now? He avoided direct confrontation with Yama, He himself admitted such. There is a reason he had WW seal Yamas flames. He thought that Ryuujin Jaka was what made Yama, he was proven horribly wrong.

    Also, realise that Yama tanked, his own flames that IIRC was enough to destroy FKT and kill all its inhabitants only in Shikai.

    What Aizen did was use WW to gain an advantage. Also remember that the only reason Yama tanked those flames was because of the risk of KT getting destroyed (you know with the pillars and such) otherwise... Well you know.

    Quote Quote:
    You also said that Yama could literally destroy Aizen continuously. I doubt it, since the only thing I've seen about Yama that could "destroy" Aizen, is Enetsu Jigoku, and that ability can only be performed once at the cost of Yama's own life. So no, not "continously".
    So you are telling me that Aizen can survive any of Zanka no Tachis abilities... Are you serious? The initial Bankai itself is enough to completely pulverize Aizen if the Hogyouku does not decide to save him. Have you actually seen the state he is in in South and West? Seriously, what can Aizen do to him in those states?

    Aizen without the Hogyouku is not taking a hit from Yama and living. Especially from something that turns things into nothingness on contact. We have all agreed (most i think) that the immortality and ridiculous regeneration granted by it is the only reason Aizen is coming out on top.

    Quote Quote:
    And that would only happen if Aizen gives Yama the opportunity to use Enetsu Jigoku, since Aizen could have easily beheaded Yama instead of piercing his stomach, but we all know Aizen likes to show off too much.
    Are we under the assumption that Yama is going to be under KS in this fight? Did you just say that Aizen wont give Yama the opportunity...

    In what scenario do you see Aizen out running or beheading Yama? Id like to really see how that goes.

    Quote Quote:
    And the Hogyoku is indeed a feat of his own. To be honest, I consider the Hogyoku a real manifestation of Aizen's power, a power created by him, not "given for free" like the zanpaktoh power, which is almost an underserved present given to characters and has nothing to do with their actual talent (like Uchiha's Sharingan if you watch Naruto).
    Actually, most of Aizens feats comes from his complete hypnosis and the Hogyouku. There is no real show of "actual talent" throughout his encounters.

    I applaud him for being very strategic and patient, KSing everyone all those years and waiting for a time to strike, but aside from that and a few high level Kido, he has not shown that much as a Shinigami.

    And the Zanpaktou is part of a Shinigamis soul, it is not a gift handed to them, it is simply pouring their Reiatsu/spirit into the sword IIRC.

    Saying he is the creator does not mean he should be awarded the feats. Nimaiya created the Zanpaktou, are Ryuujin Jaka feats his? I understand where you are coming from on that but I do not agree in this instance.

    Urahara also created the Hogyouku, should we believe that he would have the same level of power Aizen achieved?

    Quote Quote:
    In the long run, Yama MAY, just may destroy Aizen once by sacrificing himself. And this would pretty much require Aizen to sit around waiting for enetsu jigoku. But even if it happened, yes, he would heal using Hogyoku and Yama would be dead.
    This is funny. You are implying that Yama is going to sit around and wait for Aizen to show him his sparkly sword and bore him to death with his logic?

    You do realise that Yama only loses because of facing an immortal being (in that scenario). Without Immortality, Aizen is toast... Burnt toast actually.
    "Man hands misery onto man" - Philip Larkin

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    Re: Yamamoto Shigekuni vs Aizen Sosuke

    Actually if Yama manages to go for a headshot with his Bankai, then Aizen would be dead, since without a head he won't be able to regenerate even with Hougioku, since he won't be able to subdue it.
    Also I actually doubt that Hougioku can continiously restore Aizen from loosing a hand or half of a body after one touch of Zanka no Tachi. Yama should win this fight.

  6. #96
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Zehahaha's Avatar
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    Re: Yamamoto Shigekuni vs Aizen Sosuke

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    Actually if Yama manages to go for a headshot with his Bankai, then Aizen would be dead, since without a head he won't be able to regenerate even with Hougioku, since he won't be able to subdue it.
    Also I actually doubt that Hougioku can continiously restore Aizen from loosing a hand or half of a body after one touch of Zanka no Tachi. Yama should win this fight.
    If it did regenerate him for being cut in half, why not his head...

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    Re: Yamamoto Shigekuni vs Aizen Sosuke

    Well, he wasn't really cut in half. The only time, when he really got a one-hit-kill injury was after Gin's attack, but it only got his heart and some part of his torso around it.

    Well, my most important point wasn't even a headshot, but an attack from Yama's Bankai that can instantly destroy most of Aizen's body. I seriously doubt Hougiouku would be able to heal him. Especially since Yama wouldn't only go for a one shot, but he will pulverize Aizen with several more hits. And I doubt Hougioku would be able to regenerate his body from practically nothing.

  8. #98
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Zehahaha's Avatar
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    Re: Yamamoto Shigekuni vs Aizen Sosuke

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    Well, he wasn't really cut in half. The only time, when he really got a one-hit-kill injury was after Gin's attack, but it only got his heart and some part of his torso around it.

    Well, my most important point wasn't even a headshot, but an attack from Yama's Bankai that can instantly destroy most of Aizen's body. I seriously doubt Hougiouku would be able to heal him. Especially since Yama wouldn't only go for a one shot, but he will pulverize Aizen with several more hits. And I doubt Hougioku would be able to regenerate his body from practically nothing.
    He was cut in half

    For real

    Nothing can kill Aizen as long as he does have the Hogyoku, it's pretty much clear

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    Re: Yamamoto Shigekuni vs Aizen Sosuke

    Yes, it seems I really forgot about that moment.

    Though I still think that Yama's Bankai might be able to actually pulverize Aizen when it touches him. And well Aizen got arrogant after merging with Hougioku. He pretty much tried to tank most of the attacks head on after that, since he wanted to test his new powers. And if he lets Yama use Zanka no Tachi on him, he might get pulverized. And I doubt that Hougioku can regenerate Aizen from nothing.

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    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member zimbardo's Avatar
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    Re: Yamamoto Shigekuni vs Aizen Sosuke

    Zehahaha pretty much ended this.
    With the level of regeneration that the Hougioku gives Aizen, unless it rejects him later on, Aizen could be at the level of Ikkaku and still win.
    As long as he has the potential to damage Yamamoto (do not read as skills) then if he can strike Yamamoto with his sword he can cut him (however shallow). The immortality gives him infinite time to fight Yamamoto, paper cutting him to death, whilst all Yamamoto would be able to do is blow Aizen away again, and again, and again, and again, and again... until Yamamoto runs out of stamina/chakra/both...

    Now, Aizen is not at the level of Ikkaku, he is far more powerful (how far is open to debate, but still significantly more powerful)...
    This means, even if Aizen is not at the level of Yamamoto - which I do not believe he is - Yamamoto still can't win as he can not destroy the Hougioku and as long as that exists, it can reassemble/resurrect/reconstruct Aizen...
    Infinite RAGE!

  12. #101
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity jaymizzo's Avatar
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    Re: Yamamoto Shigekuni vs Aizen Sosuke

    It was established that Aizen would win due to his immortality. However, outside of that he would get "pulverised" as Jorde perfectly puts it.
    "Man hands misery onto man" - Philip Larkin

  13. #102
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Zehahaha's Avatar
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    Re: Yamamoto Shigekuni vs Aizen Sosuke

    I do believe that base Aizen is below Yamamoto, however, the moment he began his transformations, he clearly became stronger than him IMO

  14. #103
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member MBVC's Avatar
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    Re: Yamamoto Shigekuni vs Aizen Sosuke

    "Urahara also created the Hogyouku, should we believe that he would have the same level of power Aizen achieved?"

    Why Urahara didn't fuse with Hogyokou is one the mysteries in Bleach, also why Urahara didn't create more than one is also unknown too.
    Last edited by MBVC; February 28, 2014 at 05:06 PM.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member NoOneInParticular's Avatar
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    Re: Yamamoto Shigekuni vs Aizen Sosuke

    Quote Originally Posted by MBVC View Post
    Urahara also created the Hogyouku, should we believe that he would have the same level of power Aizen achieved?

    Why Urahara didn't fuse with Hogyokou is one the mysteries in Bleach, also why Urahara didn't create more than one is also unknown too.
    Probably not, because the Hogyoku apparently unlocks what potential someone already has, it doesn't grant them extra power. Aizen became as strong as he did because it was within hi innate potential. Urahara's smarter than Aizen, but Aizen is/was the stronger by a wide margin imo.

    Anyway for the sake of staying on topic, I think Aizen and Yama were roughly equal in terms of base power excluding Zanpakutos. I know excluding Zan's is silly, since a Zanpakuto is the user's power, but I'd say that in all other areas they were roughly level, with different stats maybe. Whereas Aizen might have been faster for example, Yama might have had more physical strength. But yes, counting all powers, Zanpakuto and all, Yama was the stronger in terms of destructive ability.

    Introducing the Hogyoku Aizen becomes stronger. The regenerative powers make it so that Yama's flames couldn't harm him permanently (if they could even damage him to begin with).

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