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Thread: Tokugawa vs Yukimura

  1. #16
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    Re: Tokugawa vs Yukimura

    He didn't expect TnK from him. We didn't see his reaction immediately after TnK was fully revealed I believe it was Kaoz who pointed this out to me.

    We see just the best Winners' reactions. Yuki, Fuji and Atobe stunned af.
    This happens after Tanegashima says ''He still has more to do''.


  2. #17
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member -Ken-'s Avatar
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    Re: Tokugawa vs Yukimura

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    Got his ass-kicked by Tokugawa. We didn't see or hear of any mention of Yips.
    Why wouldn't Ryoma bring TMnK out?

    Don't try and say he didn't take the match seriously since examples like his match against Kintaro or Kirihara shows that Ryoma once he starts a match, he goes all-out and gives it his all.
    I reckon if he could have pulled out TMnK, he would have.

    ---------- Post added at 02:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:59 PM ----------

    Unless you're assuming Tokugawa comfortably crushed TnKn offscreen.
    Which would make Tokugawa >>> Tezuka.

    Now just think to yourself, what is the likelihood that TnK, the technique that transformed Ryoma from getting his ass-handed to him at the end of the Part I, to becoming God at at the end of Part I, being crushed off-screen?

    It's rather unlikely.
    It's not impossible. And yes, that's what I'm saying. And until we actually saw that Echizen actually do not have the ability to do it in his next match, I don't think we should be assuming that right now. The only time we should assume the characters have any ability shown in their match disable is that Konomi himself disable them, such as Angel Mode. I don't see confirmation of this anywhere yet.
    Most of the thing I post is probably assumption if it's not a fact that I support using some evidence from the manga.

    If you knows you're on my ignore list and you quote my post, there's high chance I would ignore you. Or answer you and not look at your response.

  3. #18
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    Re: Tokugawa vs Yukimura

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    It's not impossible. And yes, that's what I'm saying. And until we actually saw that Echizen actually do not have the ability to do it in his next match, I don't think we should be assuming that right now. The only time we should assume the characters have any ability shown in their match disable is that Konomi himself disable them, such as Angel Mode. I don't see confirmation of this anywhere yet.
    What? You think that Tokugawa can comfortable crush TnK then? That is what you are saying. Since Tokugawa looked rather relaxed after winning.

  4. #19
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    Re: Tokugawa vs Yukimura

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    What? You think that Tokugawa can comfortable crush TnK then? That is what you are saying. Since Tokugawa looked rather relaxed after winning.
    Why do people assume TMnY means you can never lose when Nanjirou says part of what makes TMnY possible is that you still have to enjoy tennis while getting crushed?

    If one of those mythical 'pro' players actually showed up and started playing Ryoma, are you saying the mythical 'pro' player can't beat Ryoma just because he has TMnY?

  5. #20
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    Re: Tokugawa vs Yukimura

    Well, your reasoning isn't entirely wrong.
    But TnK was near invinvible.
    Go and watch the last of Part I again man.

    The way Ryoma's abilities were boosted clearly mean it boosts you dramatically.
    Ryoma's serves needed technology to see them.
    TnK's boost is absolutely amazing and you're trying to take away its worth here I think.

  6. #21
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    Re: Tokugawa vs Yukimura

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    Well, your reasoning isn't entirely wrong.
    But TnK was near invinvible.
    Go and watch the last of Part I again man.

    The way Ryoma's abilities were boosted clearly mean it boosts you dramatically.
    Ryoma's serves needed technology to see them.
    TnK's boost is absolutely amazing and you're trying to take away its worth here I think.
    TnK is obviously nearly invincible against anyone in your similar tier.

    But it's pretty clear middle school -> high school -> pro represents some kind of incredible chasm in basic stats. For example Shirahi is considered a 'perfect' player in terms of stat distribution (3.5 in all) for a middle schooler, but his notes also say, "It's not clear if this effective against high schoolers". That is, the perfect stats for a middle schooler might not mean much against a high schooler, and it's pretty clear looking at Irie's stats that top high schoolers are simply on another plane in terms of basic stats.

    For the most comparable point, Ryoma needs reasonable concentration to hit 2 balls at once returned by the Samurai Drive. Tokugawa can hit 5 balls effortlessly. They clearly didn't start at the same skill/stat level.

    There's no reason to believe that the inherent difference between HS/MS tier is enough to defeat the massive boosts from TMnY. Again, you wouldn't expect a mythical 'pro' player to lose to Ryoma just because Ryoma has TMnY, right? Tokugawa is clearly the top of the HS tier, so an undertrained Ryoma can't overcome his basic stats even wtih TMnY is perfectly possible.

  7. #22
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    Re: Tokugawa vs Yukimura

    The whole HS and MS thing is weak reasoning at this stage in the story.
    There are only about 6 HSers that are on the level of Ryoma.

    Ryoga, Byoudouin, Tanegashima, Irie, Oni, Tokugawa are the only guys who strike me as being players that could beat Yuki/Ryoma/Sanada.
    Not many HSers are Top level.

    Ryoma now can hit 10balls at a time. The same amount as Tokugawa.
    So adding TnK to that, why shouldn't it be a massive boost?

  8. #23
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    Re: Tokugawa vs Yukimura

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    The whole HS and MS thing is weak reasoning at this stage in the story.
    There are only about 6 HSers that are on the level of Ryoma.

    Ryoga, Byoudouin, Tanegashima, Irie, Oni, Tokugawa are the only guys who strike me as being players that could beat Yuki/Ryoma/Sanada.
    Not many HSers are Top level.

    Ryoma now can hit 10balls at a time. The same amount as Tokugawa.
    So adding TnK to that, why shouldn't it be a massive boost?
    Yes but we're talking about the first game where, if you use nationals Ryoma as a point of reference, he can't even hit 2 balls at the same time very easily.

    10-ball Ryoma + TnK can definitely beat Tokugawa, though now that TnK is out of the bag, I really don't see what's stopping any of the high schoolers from using TnK too given the requirement on TnK is surprisingly low. At least, TnK should no longer be considered the 'only one guy can learn it in a generation' kind of rarity. It certainly wouldn't surprise me if all the HSers you mentioned turns out to know TnK as well. They certainly have the talent/stats to learn it.

  9. #24
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    Re: Tokugawa vs Yukimura

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantron View Post
    Yes but we're talking about the first game where, if you use nationals Ryoma as a point of reference, he can't even hit 2 balls at the same time very easily.

    10-ball Ryoma + TnK can definitely beat Tokugawa, though now that TnK is out of the bag, I really don't see what's stopping any of the high schoolers from using TnK too given the requirement on TnK is surprisingly low. At least, TnK should no longer be considered the 'only one guy can learn it in a generation' kind of rarity. It certainly wouldn't surprise me if all the HS you mentioned turns out to know TnK as well. They certainly have the talent/stats to learn it.
    lol, TnK isn't that simple haha.
    I don' think it's a thing where just everybody can use it.

    We've reached all the way to No.s 6 to 10 left. Nobody in the camp has TnK.
    Do you think the left over players from No.s 6 to 1 have TnK?

    It is cited to be an extremely rare thing. It is extremely rare.
    Doubt Oni, Irie, Tanegashima, Tokugawa and Byoudouin have TnK.

  10. #25
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    Re: Tokugawa vs Yukimura

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    lol, TnK isn't that simple haha.
    I don' think it's a thing where just everybody can use it.

    We've reached all the way to No.s 6 to 10 left. Nobody in the camp has TnK.
    Do you think the left over players from No.s 6 to 1 have TnK?

    It is cited to be an extremely rare thing. It is extremely rare.
    Doubt Oni, Irie, Tanegashima, Tokugawa and Byoudouin have TnK.
    You want to argue against the only guy (Nanjirou) who really knows TnK is? Nanjirou said everyone possess TnK as long as they love tennis. Of course according to what he said half of the guys in POT should be able to use TnK but he's the expert so until someone else corrects him that's the current word on TnK. There is zero talent barrier for anyone learning TnK (in fact Nanjirou says everyone starts in TnK when they first play tennis) so you can't say only Ryoma knows it while his opponent do not. Nanjirou specifically denied the fact that heritage has anything to do with Ryoma learning TnK.

    Of course I don't really expect these guys to have TnK, but based on Nanjirou's description anyone can have TnK so I can't assume Ryoma's opponent can't possibly have TnK until they actually played.

  11. #26
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    Re: Tokugawa vs Yukimura

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantron View Post
    You want to argue against the only guy (Nanjirou) who really knows TnK is? Nanjirou said everyone possess TnK as long as they love tennis. Of course according to what he said half of the guys in POT should be able to use TnK but he's the expert so until someone else corrects him that's the current word on TnK. There is zero talent barrier for anyone learning TnK (in fact Nanjirou says everyone starts in TnK when they first play tennis) so you can't say only Ryoma knows it while his opponent do not. Nanjirou specifically denied the fact that heritage has anything to do with Ryoma learning TnK.

    Of course I don't really expect these guys to have TnK, but based on Nanjirou's description anyone can have TnK so I can't assume Ryoma's opponent can't possibly have TnK until they actually played.
    I never said nobody else knows it. Re-read it. Or better read, read my post fully.
    However I stand by saying I dont think just anybody will be using TnK in the series. Potential or not.
    It will be few players who bring it out.

  12. #27
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member ashore's Avatar
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    Re: Tokugawa vs Yukimura

    Quote Originally Posted by LetalHawk View Post
    His base stats are probably higher than Yukimura's, if he scores points against him, that prevents Yuki from rallying and, due to that, prevents that he sets Yips in.
    i admit that i haven't read PP info on yukimura and his yips. does it require rallies to activate?

    I thought I heard someone posted in PP that even spectators felt yips from yuki . meaning yuki doesn't need to rally with someone to activate. yips
    Last edited by ashore; October 06, 2012 at 09:13 PM.

  13. #28
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    Re: Tokugawa vs Yukimura

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    I never said nobody else knows it. Re-read it. Or better read, read my post fully.
    However I stand by saying I dont think just anybody will be using TnK in the series. Potential or not.
    It will be few players who bring it out.
    Of course I don't expect to see a wide proliferation of TnK but the point stands that currently there's nothing especially hard about learning TnK after Nanjirou revealed the secrets to TnK, so since heritage/training/talent is out of the window for acquiring TnK, it must not be as big an advantage as it initially appeared. Otherwise everyone would be in TnK by now.

  14. #29
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    Re: Tokugawa vs Yukimura

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantron View Post
    so since heritage/training/talent is out of the window for acquiring TnK, it must not be as big an advantage as it initially appeared. Otherwise everyone would be in TnK by now.
    Can't see how you can conclude that isnt doesn't provide much of a big advantage.

  15. #30
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Kaoz's Avatar
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    Re: Tokugawa vs Yukimura

    While the requirements to achieving TnK sound pretty simple, I would imagine that they are pretty damn difficult in actuality. You can't just force yourself to enjoy something after all, and even then we don't know how much dedication is needed or whether there needs to be an additional step.

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