Not a member? Register now!
Announcements
Manga returns! Catch up with the details. Enjoy downloading, translating, and scanlating manga HERE legally!
Like us on Facebook, follow us on Twitter! Celebrate another year with MH and read our yearbook.
Manga News: Check out this week's new manga (7/14/14 - 7/20/14).
Forum News: Visit new sections for Nisekoi and Kingdom!
Translations: Gintama 503 by Bomber D Rufi , Bleach 588 by BadKarma

View Poll Results: Who will win?

Voters
14. You may not vote on this poll
    The results in this poll are hidden.
  • Echizen Ryoma

    The results are hidden 0%
  • Oni Juujirou

    The results are hidden 0%
Thread Closed
Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 55

Thread: [Round 2 - Team 4 vs Team 6 Singles 1] Echizen Ryoma vs Oni Juujirou

  1. #16
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Hardy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Outer Heaven
    Country
    Argentina
    Age
    20
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    6,313
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: [Round 2 - Team 4 vs Team 6 Singles 1] Echizen Ryoma vs Oni Juujirou

    Quote Originally Posted by ashore View Post
    Muga no Kyouchi! ryoma! he saw ryoga return G10 #1 's Byoudin's super power glowing tennis ball

    MAJOR EDIT: in ryoma's techniques box is missing MUGA NO kyouchi k, Hyrakuren, and 2nd door to muga?

    so they are banned?

    ---------- Post added at 07:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:01 PM ----------

    10 baller is a person who is fast enough to hit 10 balls. no where does it state black jack kniefe is dependent on hitting speed and accuracy of a player.
    READ EVERYTHING IN THE POST. How are we supossed to discuss if you don't read?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
    Muga, Hyakuren and Saiki are technically allowed (if you want to compare, they were on Tezuka's ability list). The reason why I didn't include them for Ryoma is that I personally believe he can't use them anymore and his PP profile hasn't listed them. You're free to argue about them though.
    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    Techniques can substitute strength. And Ryoma tech has grown considerably ever since then. I don't think Big Bang will be a problem anymore.
    Big Bang was a problem back then for weak players, Ryoma was one of them. Nowadays BJK is almost impossible to return, even for power players. I don't see Ryoma returning it.
    Quote Originally Posted by gnut View Post
    I know it's tough on you jose...imagine me
    fapfapfap


  2. #17
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member ashore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Country
    United States
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    281
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: [Round 2 - Team 4 vs Team 6 Singles 1] Echizen Ryoma vs Oni Juujirou

    Quote Originally Posted by Eiji Kikumaru View Post
    How is Ryoma going to return BJK? "Ten'imuhou no Kiwami cannot be used by any character"

    Oni destroys Ryoma's wrists and wins this by default.
    with super ultra mega incredible turbo mountain storm !
    well at least that's in the anime, not sure if that would work in the manga.
    also how would Oni return RAI? echizen saw BJK , he could avoid it and intentionally miss it.

    @eiji , please refresh my memory, i read the posts i'm not sure which post number u are referring to?
    Last edited by ashore; October 06, 2012 at 09:24 PM.

  3. #18
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member -Ken-'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Country
    Thailand
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    2,165
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: [Round 2 - Team 4 vs Team 6 Singles 1] Echizen Ryoma vs Oni Juujirou

    Quote Originally Posted by Eiji Kikumaru View Post
    READ EVERYTHING IN THE POST. How are we supossed to discuss if you don't read?

    Big Bang was a problem back then for weak players, Ryoma was one of them. Nowadays BJK is almost impossible to return, even for power players. I don't see Ryoma returning it.
    I don't see Ryoma having problems with it. He might for couples of points. That's it. I see you are always giving other players in other match a possible "evolution" bonus. Ryoma is a single characters with the most evolution factor in the entire manga. He WILL win.

    Echizen's highest potential is that he can evolved and deal with ANY kind of opponents. Do you seriously think Echizen would lost this match? If you do, reread PoT.

    Echizen at the very least is very heavily implied to find out some way to deal with Rai (although it was show offscreen) when he was fighting Sanada when he was losing memories. He will find a way to win in this match, no doubt about it.
    Last edited by -Ken-; October 06, 2012 at 09:21 PM.
    Most of the thing I post is probably assumption if it's not a fact that I support using some evidence from the manga.

    If you knows you're on my ignore list and you quote my post, there's high chance I would ignore you. Or answer you and not look at your response.

  4. Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked this post
  5. #19
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Hardy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Outer Heaven
    Country
    Argentina
    Age
    20
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    6,313
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: [Round 2 - Team 4 vs Team 6 Singles 1] Echizen Ryoma vs Oni Juujirou

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    I don't see Ryoma having problems with it. He might for couples of points. That's it. I see you are always giving other players in other match a possible "evolution" bonus. Ryoma is a single characters with the most evolution factor in the entire manga. He WILL win.

    Echizen's highest potential is that he can evolved and deal with ANY kind of opponents. Do you seriously think Echizen would lost this match? If you do, reread PoT.

    Echizen at the very least is very heavily implied to find out some way to deal with Rai (although it was show offscreen) when he was fighting Sanada when he was losing memories. He will find a way to win in this match, no doubt about it.
    Actually, I didn't give anyone the "evolution bonus" i think it's crap (anyone can evolve into anything, It's just Konomi's decition).

    Why would I read it again? If Ryoma is gonna win every single match JUST BECAUSE HE'S FREAKING ECHIZEN, then this tournament is useless and I'm wasting my time answering this.
    Quote Originally Posted by gnut View Post
    I know it's tough on you jose...imagine me
    fapfapfap


  6. #20
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member ashore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Country
    United States
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    281
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: [Round 2 - Team 4 vs Team 6 Singles 1] Echizen Ryoma vs Oni Juujirou

    we're still waiting on Kaoz to see if muga no kyouchi can be used. IF not ryoma is toast.

    here's a question is returning a heavy powerful shot the same as producing it????


    example:
    with mUga, ryoma could copy Tanishi's big bang. Yukimura said, its the same strong shot but too simple.

    but not sure if ryoma could return the big bang w/o muga. muga seems to grant extra strength from other super moves.


    this would allow ryoma to use Kintarous super mountain shot vs ONI
    Last edited by ashore; October 06, 2012 at 09:36 PM.

  7. #21
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member -Ken-'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Country
    Thailand
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    2,165
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: [Round 2 - Team 4 vs Team 6 Singles 1] Echizen Ryoma vs Oni Juujirou

    Quote Originally Posted by Eiji Kikumaru View Post
    Actually, I didn't give anyone the "evolution bonus" i think it's crap (anyone can evolve into anything, It's just Konomi's decition).

    Why would I read it again? If Ryoma is gonna win every single match JUST BECAUSE HE'S FREAKING ECHIZEN, then this tournament is useless and I'm wasting my time answering this.

    I already see some other team getting a free match win with this logic, so I figure Echizen deserve some, too. You know, to be fair.
    Most of the thing I post is probably assumption if it's not a fact that I support using some evidence from the manga.

    If you knows you're on my ignore list and you quote my post, there's high chance I would ignore you. Or answer you and not look at your response.

  8. #22
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    United States
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    2,152
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: [Round 2 - Team 4 vs Team 6 Singles 1] Echizen Ryoma vs Oni Juujirou

    Copied moves are still subject to your original strength. It's obvious Kintaro has way higher physical strength (his max output in national semi final is above Hado 108) so if Ryoma copied a power-based move it'd be less effective. How less effective? Nobody knows the answer to that but we can see that whenever Ryoma copied Big Bang it doesn't bust the racket of whoever he's playing against. It's probably a combination of both his opponent tend to be pretty strong and that he has much lower strength. For the most part it looksl ike his opponents (Atobe and Yukimura) didn't even need anything beyond a normal hit to return it. One can argue their tech might be so high it's built into a normal rally but I got the feeling it's saying they can simply return it with sheer strength due to the fact that Ryoma has a lowish strength rating.

    I don't see BJK busting Ryoma's racket but it'll at least put him in a disadvantageous situation. It's common to see someone return something but end up having to lob it and then the other guy smash it. Of course Ryoma has own share of moves to use too, but none of those seem to be anything that'd bother a 10 baller (Samurai Drive would be totally useless against a 10 baller). Just BJK does not seem sufficient looking at the move matchup but since Oni's been revealed to have power above the BJK while Ryoma has not yet been shown with any move that'd be considered high tier in the 10-baller level, Oni has the advantage here.

    I do not think it's fair to say "well if it happened in the manga then Ryoma always wins because he's the main character" because then the discussion is entirely meaningless. Of course Ryoma won't lose in the manga but that's just because of the story. It's actually pretty ironic since to fully realize TnK you got to be able to accept that fact that you can get spanked since the 'have fun' criteria comes ahead of winning, so in theory the fact that Ryoma never loses should prevent him from ever learning TnK since he certainly does everything to avoid losing, which is missing the point that 'have fun' is the most important part in realizing TnK.

  9. #23
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member ashore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Country
    United States
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    281
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: [Round 2 - Team 4 vs Team 6 Singles 1] Echizen Ryoma vs Oni Juujirou

    well unless ryoma get to use muga, he stand no chance.

    Oni is near the level of tokugawa and the #2 of Genius 10.

    And I dont think ryoma can even play at the same level as tokugawa or oni , again unless he has muga.

  10. #24
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    United States
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    2,152
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: [Round 2 - Team 4 vs Team 6 Singles 1] Echizen Ryoma vs Oni Juujirou

    Quote Originally Posted by ashore View Post
    well unless ryoma get to use muga, he stand no chance.

    Oni is near the level of tokugawa and the #2 of Genius 10.

    And I dont think ryoma can even play at the same level as tokugawa or oni , again unless he has muga.
    I thought he just can't use TnK?

    Regular Muga is useless because unless Ryoma went and watched some games from G1-4 whatever move he use is just going to fail by the virtue of being an inferior move against the G5. Muga is subject to your original strength so even if he copied Duke Homerun there's no way he can blow Oni away. Muga might enhance your stats in some way but it doesn't turn a guy who is never known for his strength into Duke. I guess Shuuji or Ryoga might have some super awesome moves that's not dependent on strength but that's purely speculation at this point. Of course if you do that just go watch a game of pro playing live in the world of POT and then you should be able to spank everyone below the pro level.

    Door #1 can be defeated by normal rallies (there's nothing meaningful to double on a regular hit). Can he do a double return on BJK? Maybe, maybe not, but Oni has BJK+ level power so he should be able to return a double BJK. From the Tezuka versus Kabaji game we can see that the doubling effect doesn't go on forever (otherwise whenever either of them misses a rally the ball will have 2^(number of rallies) power and that should easily be able to kill everyone), and that Tezuka was losing due to Kabaji having superior endurance/strength. That implies as long as the enemy can return the double powered shot, the physically weaker player eventually takes damage from the stronger player's power shots. It's pretty obvious Oni's strength is high enough to cause damage to Ryoma. Maybe not just outright bust his racket since Ryoma has improved, but it'd play out like Tezuka versus Kabaji which would be:

    Oni uses BJK
    Ryoma double return
    Oni hits the double BJK back
    Ryoma can only return this normally at this point, and returning this shot would cause damage as double BJK level is way above his strength (this is based on the fact that Kabaji versus Tezuka stopped at 4X power, rather than 2^(number of rallies) power)

    Door #2 is kind of useless against superior opponents because you'd just see a lot of different ways you're about to get owned.

  11. #25
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Fayte's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Country
    United States
    Age
    25
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,758
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: [Round 2 - Team 4 vs Team 6 Singles 1] Echizen Ryoma vs Oni Juujirou

    Echizen lost to Kazuya, who is either equal or worse than Oni. Oni wins.

  12. #26
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted FrostyMouse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Country
    Holy Britannian Empire
    Age
    23
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    5,537
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: [Round 2 - Team 4 vs Team 6 Singles 1] Echizen Ryoma vs Oni Juujirou

    Quote Originally Posted by Fayte View Post
    Echizen lost to Kazuya, who is either equal or worse than Oni. Oni wins.
    Fayte, you do have to remember that Echizen didn't even have 5 at Once at the time, let alone the 10 at Once he possesses now, so that result can just be thrown out of the window...

    I'm inclined to agree with Kaoz that Echizen no longer uses Muga and he may not even possess Hyakuren or Saiki anymore.

    The way I see the match is that, going by Mifune's speech, Echizen can return BJK as he has 10 at Once, but Echizen's lack of any useful techniques at this stage ultimately means that Oni will outlast him and if Oni pulls out a new tech, such as Black Tomahawk, he will eventually overwhelm Echizen at this point in the game.

    Oni wins 6-3.

  13. #27
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    United States
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    2,152
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: [Round 2 - Team 4 vs Team 6 Singles 1] Echizen Ryoma vs Oni Juujirou

    Ryoma is a relatively new face to the 10-ball club so there's no reason to assume he has better base stats than a long established member of the 10-ball club, Oni.

    Now in POT special moves trump pretty much everything else if your special move is good enough, but we know Ryoma's existing moves are pretty much all garbage tier (he's always borrowing other people's moves). Samurai Drive is vastly inferior to even 5-ball let alone 10-ball.

    I'm inclined to say he still has all the Muga and doors minus TnK which is more like a plot device power. But regular Muga is useless because Muga cannot copy power (he's not going to turn into Duke just because he uses Duke Homerun), and nobody ranked above Oni has ever shown a non power move. Any existing moves he can use with Muga will obviously just be totally useless against Oni.

    I went back and checked the Tezuka vs Kabaji game, it seems to imply you can only apply the double effect once, because the rallies always look like:

    Kabaji hits something at 1X Kabaji power
    Tezuka returns it at 2X Kabaji power
    Kabaji returns it at 4X Kabaji power

    After that, we see no further detail, but we know Tezuka started dropping games and we see various people saying this is going to be bad for Tezuka if they continue like this. So it's clear you can't just keep on apply more doubling effects on the ball (otherwise there's no reason why Tezuka would drop any games in this state). Now Ryoma has improved but his inability to return power moves is fairly well-chronicled (in terms of per move basis, Big Bang scored more points off Ryoma than any other move), so you'd assume Black Jack Knife ought to put him in a difficult position if he attempted to return it normally. So if Oni can return 2X his own power then he has no chance of losing, because Ryoma will not be able to put the doubling effect on the 2X BJK. In fact given the difference in strength between the two, you'd think Oni can just hit like 60% power BJK, which Ryoma still needs to return with a doubler, and then he can just hit it back at 1.2X power and Ryoma will have to drop that point as he used up as free return and he clearly lacks the power to return it outright.

    The revised info showing Oni can go above BJK power level really helps him a lot. Without it, we don't really know if Oni can return >100% BJK level power since that could be his limit. Note the numbers are actually quite tight, because Oni consistently said '60% is enough for middle schoolers', which puts the maximum doubling power to 120% of whatever move Oni uses (presumably he always opens with BJK), and since he can go above BJK level, this is something he should be able to manage.

    My guess is eventually it'll be revealed that Ryoma's basic moves magically works on the top tier characters again after he can hit 10-ball, but until this information is available, Ryoma just can't win due to his basic moves are far too inferior to be of use.
    Last edited by Phantron; October 07, 2012 at 01:57 AM.

  14. #28
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Kaoz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Country
    Germany
    Age
    23
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    3,052
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: [Round 2 - Team 4 vs Team 6 Singles 1] Echizen Ryoma vs Oni Juujirou

    Muga is definitely fair game. I don't think it will do him any good, but edited it in.

  15. #29
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member LetalHawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Country
    Spain
    Age
    20
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,474
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: [Round 2 - Team 4 vs Team 6 Singles 1] Echizen Ryoma vs Oni Juujirou

    I think Hyakuren's moveable aura plus double return would be a problem for Oni. Echizen could handle Oni's next level of BJK after some games, I just don't see Ryoma losing this match. He is the kind of guy who constantly evolves in every match, against the stronger opponents and in critical situations. He doesn't stand a chance at the start of Shin, but right now he can hold his ground and probably defeat Oni, don't forget about POT, Ryoma won't give up and evolve.

    Echizen will win this no matter what, 6-4 or 7-5, even if Oni becomes serious, Echizen with Hyakuren, Saiki, plus his improvements we have yet to see from Mountain training wins.

  16. #30
    Intl Translator 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Airgrimes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Beika City
    Country
    Marine Headquarters
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    3,263
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: [Round 2 - Team 4 vs Team 6 Singles 1] Echizen Ryoma vs Oni Juujirou

    Is this an official match we're talking? If so, Ryoma. Hands down.
    If its an unofficial one, but they are going all-out like Ryoma VS Tokugawa, then Oni.


    If you understand PoT, you will understand why I have said two results.

  17. Like 1 Member(s) likes this post
Thread Closed
Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts