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We don't have a plot, so neither.
As I said earlier, I think the moveable Hyakuren aura that we saw against Yukimura will be effective against Oni. No other Muga door will work other than that one.
Edit: The Saigaku plot power has to be factored in as well
The moveable Hyakuren aura is dangerous close to TnK. Inui believes TnK is basically just a more powerful version of the moveable aura + tech immunity and his guess is as good as anyone else's, and it certainly looks reasonable. As Yukimura pointed out, the weakness of the Hyakuren aura is that is that you HAVE to put all your aura on a single location (usually hand) which makes you slower, so only Tezuka can use it effectively because he can use Tezuka Zone to cover for lack of speed. Once you can move the aura then it's pretty much a flawless technique. Given Tezuka has never been able to move the aura and he mastered it far before anyone else did, I'm inclined to say the only reason Ryoma was able to move it is because he's about to get TnK. Note that Yukimura cannot handle the moveable aura without his yips technique. It's pretty clear that predictions made while the moveable aura is supposed to be work if not for the fact Ryoma suddenly lost his sense of touch.
At any rate the moveable aura is really just another stat upgrade in terms of functionality (faster speed, ambidexterity, etc) and 10-ball is another basic stat upgrade (pretty clear the more balls you can hit at once the higher your base stat is) so I think you're supposed to just take the highest level of stat upgrade and use that (which has to be 10-ball) instead of taking all the stat upgrade you may have had in the past, especially when it's MS versus HS because HS characters are assumed to have way higher base stats. On that token, the mountain training is clearly less than 10-ball (plenty of people completed it without being able to do 10-ball), so anyone who can already hit 10-ball gets no additional bonus points on stat.
whether this is an official match or not, it shouldn't affect ryoma's win , because this tournament is out of the storyline. it uses data from the story line, but ultimately by popular vote someone wins. people have already decided and cast their vote, and defend their position in discussion. some discussion may change a few votes or 2 , but over all the max voters is like around 15 +/- 3 voters.
---------- Post added at 11:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:10 AM ----------
As far as judging the strength of Muga No kyouchi. Ryoma was able to use rai. is the strength, speed, or intensity the same as sanadas?
I bet phantron would say no. since he is using perhaps real life logic and physics to support his claim. if what phantron says is true, evidenced by manga sources or PP (puri pair data books) then i'll conceede.
how was ryoma able to use rai? because sanada showed it to him. how many times does it take for echizen to see a move to copy it ? unknown. I assume only once. since he saw kintaro's mountain storm only once. again the intensity, strength, and speed of the executed special move is in question.
so ryoma has already seen BJK once. it doesn't mean he has to return it, although theoretically he can use other chars special moves to return it or even use BJK to cancel it out.
i believe since ryoma has a stronger control of muga no kyochii, he should be able to use Hyaryuken and Saiki.. the reason is because ryoma has evolved so he wont get exhausted by muga's effects, and has evolved mugato use hyakuren (refer to pot1 finals match of echizen vs yuki) , and distribute his aura.
this is the progression and evolution of echizen's ability to use and control muga, so it should be apart of his skill set.
if this is an unofficial match, i imagine it would be the same vs tokugawa, that ryoma wont use these muga tricks on any of the G10.
---------- Post added at 11:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:16 AM ----------
EDIT: if you compare yukimura's stats vs oni's.
i think most would agree that Oni's maybe higher or close than yukimura's.
Also one can argue.. that oni can only return all shots of special techniques he seen once before or used on him once before? its unproven but just a theory. If oni cant return all moves he see's then he'll suffer a major disadvantage.
pepole keep talking about BJK, what about RAI? can oni return rai?
echizen's muga history shows:
vs atobe , regular muga is usless ( due to atobe's skill or insight? not sure)
vs yukimura, regular muga is useless ( yuki's skill too good, or that's his skill to return all special moves)
vs sanda regionals, sealed sanada's special moves and added pressure
vs oni? either useless or puts pressure on him. ( based on public opinion)
muga doens't mean auto win though, it will probably be tough.
teh question is vs ONI is muga useless?
the win will have to come down to not special moves but overall base tennis skills. if muga just seals an opponent's special technique since it can be used against them. I assume that the G10 have special chakra powers that makes their moves uncopyable since their techniques come with extra special sources , perhaps chakra. although momo copied BJK so that nullifies that theory.
Last edited by ashore; October 07, 2012 at 01:34 PM.
Whenever Ryoma copied Big Bang it never has the intended effect (blow racket away).
Although part of it is because the ones he used Big Bang on are all top tier players (Atobe/Yukimura), I think it's at least implied that his own lack of strength is part of it. Ryoma's lack of physical strength is well chronicled in POT.
We know Muga can copy tech and speed, so copying Rai's speed and tech is fine. It shouldn't have the same power as Sanada using Rai, though in this case I'm sure even with Sanada's strength you wouldn't be able to bust Oni's racket.
I think Muga can't copy power because power in some sense is the bane of tech. In the game against Gin, Kawamura was said to be the only person who can match up against Gin, despite Tezuka was available for S2. While we don't expect Tezuka to actually lose to Gin, it can be interpreted that for all Tezuka's crazy tech, he can't really risk screwing up on one rally and accidentally get hit by a Hado X. Kawamura also returned the ordinary Hado ball in the game against Fudomine for Fuji, which again suggest that another top tier tech character has problem if forced to return a pure power shot. Even though power and tech are subsituteable in POT, I think power has a huge advantage over tech in the sense that if the power guys screws up he loses a point, while the tech guy is likely to have broken body parts and/or coughing blood if he screwed up. The power guy can screw up at least 24 times against the tech guy, while the tech guy can usually only screw up once.
So if Muga can copy power, and power has a tendency to trump tech, you'd end up just copying Duke Homerun or Hado 108 or whatever the most powerful pure power move you've seen so far, and yet Muga is obviously meant to be a 'tech' based move. The whole point of Muga is that you can use a ton of different moves to confuse the opponent. If Ryoma just copies Rai over and over (which would make a lot of sense), then why not just have Sanada play Oni instead?
As an aside I assume BJK would be a 'difficult to return' move versus 10-ball Ryoma, like those shots you see people end up lobbing the ball over. I don't see him returning it like a normal rally because his lack of strength is well-known. He either has to use a tech to return it comfortably, or risk setting up a bad shot to return it normally.
I get your points and respect your reasoning and decisions. As far as blow one's racket away, i think that doesn't apply to all situations. I mean if tanishi or Kite did a big bang on Duke, i dont the racket will " AUTO" be blown away. it just blown away on comparative weak strength ed people like echizen.
I mean didn't kite use big bang on tezuka in quarter finals nationals? it didn't blow racket away. I'm just saying you are using the BIgbang's supposedly blown racket away to reason the Muga's inabiliity to copy strength , which blowing the racket away is not a good example to prove your point imo
If Tanishi tried to use Big Bang on Duke I'm sure it'd just have no effect because Duke is so far the physically strongest guy in the series, just like Kawamura's Hado ball normally blows other people's racket away but has no effect on Gin, who starts out with higher strength than Kawamura. Racket busting effects, the way I see it, is a comparison of the user's strength + tech strength versus defender's strength + tech strength.
There's two things here: tech strength and user strength. Muga can copy tech strength. For example we can say Black Jack Knife is unconditionally a better move than Jack Knife, so copying Black Jack Knife gets you better speed/power/whatever than just copying Jack Knife. That's perfectly fine.
But copying Black Jack Knife doesn't get you Oni's strength. Just like Oni's BJK must be more powerful than Momoshiro's BJK, if Ryoma copied BJK it'd be even weaker than Momoshiro's BJK because his base strength is lower. Otherwise, you should just go to talk to Duke and ask him to do some moves, and boom, you get Duke's strength! Copying Duke Homerun would instantly make you top 5 amongst all characters NPOT if you can copy the user's power.
Muga normally copies all-or-nothing moves. For example the ZSS does exactly one thing. There's no 'stronger' or 'weaker' version of ZSS. If you can do ZSS the ball just stops rolling when it hits the ground. Even if Nanjirou did ZSS, it's not going to have any more effect than merely dropping and stopping because there's nothing to add to the tech.
Right now we have a rather unique problem in that there are NO tech moves that can overcome a 10-baller tier character. While Ryoga and Shuuji almost certainly possess such moves, they've yet to show anything so there's nothing to be copied. The only moves that might even have an effect on a 10-baller tier at the moment would be:
1. Zero serve (might be copyable, but its side effect is well-known).
2. Phantom (doubtful it'll work, but Phantom is an extension of Tezuka Zone which specifically cannot be copied)
3. Atobe Kingdom (this appears to only be possible due to Atobe's superhuman eyesight. World of Ice has not been copied either)
So copying tech moves is useless until Shuuji and Ryoga shows their moves (they strike me as the tech-type player), and I assume you cannot copy the user's power. That'd leave Ryoma with no useful moves against Oni.
whats our opinion on rai or super mountain ultra mega storm?
how did you arrive to this: Right now we have a rather unique problem in that there are NO tech moves that can overcome a 10-baller tier character.
is it because they are highly skilled and able to return all tech moves ( assumed?)
I don't know, but I think Echizen can really deal with the move just fine. He return Kinchan's storm move, didn't he? That move is more dangerous than the move that broke the spotlight. His hand is fine after he hit it. And no, I don't think he return it with PoP.
@Phantron Lol I know the rules. I remember trying to tell you to read them back in Tezuka VS Fuji thread. I'm glad you've grasped the rules of the tournament now.
And listen, if a player has a high enough level technique in this series, he can return the Power shot.
Ryoga and Byoudouin.
Byoudouin hits a casual serve effortlessly and shatters a wall. Ryoga arrives and casually hits it back at Byoudouin.
This doesn't mean Ryoga has immense power at all. It more likely means he has amazing technique.
I don't think it is impossible for BJK to be returned. We can assume that Ryoma overcame Ryoma at the Nationals when Atobe and Sanada go to recover his memories. So since there are people on here who believe they are of a similar concept, I don't see why Ryoma shouldn't be able to handle BJK.
I don't think we have ever seen a head-on Power VS Technique Singles match in the series yet.
All we saw was Tanishi VS Ryoma, and Ryoma was trolling for most of the match we find out. He didn't use Technique to try and return it.
Kawamura, Ishida. G, Ishida. T, Tanishi, Kabaji(Mirror so doesn't count so well), Date, Duke and Ban.
We haven't seen these guys take on a technique man head-on in Singles. These are the only known Power Players.
So I don't think we should rule out Ryoma handling BJK at least. I mean, Momoshiro can use it.
secondly, Ryoma has already has ass-kicked. I doubt Ryoma is the type to get his ass-kicked twice.
Especially after people were on here with stuff like ''WoK'' can't lose twice. Why should Ryoma of all people?
---------- Post added at 02:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:22 PM ----------
G6 said Mach Serve isn't a hard serve to return, implying he and anyone above can return Mach Serve quite easily. That pretty much eliminates almost all tech moves from being a threat to 10-baller. Mach Serve required Atobe Kingdom to return, which is clearly a top tech move, and I think only Phantom and Zero Serve are on par with Atobe Kingdom in the list of moves we know so far. Zero Serve is the most likely move that'll work on a 10-baller and still copyable (though it's also never been copied by Muga), but we know Zero Serve hurts yourself very badly for using it.
Undoubtedly the top tier players themselves must possess tech moves that can beat a 10-baller but we have yet to see them so there's nothing to copy tech-wise at moment.
Premise 1: If it has no plot, then it's an unofficial match.
Premise 2: If it is an unofficial match, then Echizen can lose.
Premise 3: If Echizen can lose, then Echizen will lose.
well... i voted for oni personally but i dont want to have echizen seem defeneless and that he really had a chance.
well echizen's team may not advance to the next round.
hirakoba rin wins... team score: 1-0
akutsu/kawamura wins team score: 1-1
echizen-oni Decisivie match ?oni wins team score: 2-1
i mean if echizen advances... he'll either always win(vs non G10) or always lose to G10 .
and if he wins, and faces another U-17 G10, we'll always argue about muga and how echizen may use them or not.
True or false.?
Last edited by ashore; October 08, 2012 at 01:50 AM.