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Thread: How did Kenpachi get beat?

  1. #136
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Chameleone View Post
    dude they are given the same abilities and even if he solely copied his memeries that means the THOUSANDS of years of battle experience of being yamamatios fuckin former rival came into play, not to mention the fact that he did beat kenpachi means that he had to be near or on the same level. if he didnt beat him with power he beat him with bachs experience

    ---------- Post added at 10:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:11 AM ----------

    i dont know why people are fighting over this, we got no complaints when we thought it was bach so i dont know why you think a clone of him cant win a fight, clearly he had to pick someone that OBVIOUSLY had some type of power otherwise picking rroyd wouldve been useless and a waste of time on his part stop looking for something to complain about, it was kenpachis first loss yes it was a shock but just because it wasnt the real bach doesnt mean you have to pick at every little bit, it makes sense... hes his clone! lol he had to pick someone strong or else it wouldnt have been a good rouse now would it?

    ---------- Post added at 10:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:12 AM ----------

    lol its not like hes gonna get the weakest sr to play him lmfao for all we know rroyd was the strongest
    I assume you've read the manga but perhaps you would like to re-read it to refresh your memory. Loyd copies appearances & power to perfection while Royd copies appearances & memories.

    The manga made that especially clear. It's not debatable.

    The rest of your post is pointless & stinks of repetition (It's something I've already explained long ago).
    Last edited by Kay3795; January 26, 2013 at 11:02 AM.

  2. #137
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    What doesn't make sense is why are you trying to compare both when their defeats had vastly different meanings. Byakuya lost his Bankai and his role was to be defeated (or killed) in an intentionally humiliating way, it would actually add to his character and to the story. Kenpachi's role wasn't to develop there or anything, he was just defeated to show a full page panel with him half dead. In Byakuya's case he was there for a well founded reason, while Kenpachi was just a tool, and could have been any other captain but Kubo chose Kenpachi because the sight of him would have a bigger effect among his fanbase compared to other captains with little to no fans (even if everybody else is pretty much superior).
    I thought Kenpachi's defeat was to show just how powerful the enemies were. Same with Byakuya's defeat, as well as to further power the two characters or introduce their own story so we learn more about them, like what's currently happening with Zaraki. At leaset with Byakuya, we know he'll get stronger. And holy long post, Batman! O_O

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  4. #138
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    What doesn't make sense is why are you trying to compare both when their defeats had vastly different meanings. Byakuya lost his Bankai and his role was to be defeated (or killed) in an intentionally humiliating way, it would actually add to his character and to the story. Kenpachi's role wasn't to develop there or anything, he was just defeated to show a full page panel with him half dead. In Byakuya's case he was there for a well founded reason, while Kenpachi was just a tool, and could have been any other captain but Kubo chose Kenpachi because the sight of him would have a bigger effect among his fanbase compared to other captains with little to no fans (even if everybody else is pretty much superior).
    No, it wasn't anything to do with fanbase. Neither any other captain could there be. It was Kenpachi's role to get defeated, because a power-up is coming along his way, not someone else. Same with Byakuya.
    Not going to argue with the superiority thing again. We did it a million times already.


    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    It was analyzed based on logic and the fact that the first two "fights" are actually shown on panel as the Roar jumped towards Kenpachi and got cut in half and the Question is clearly seen still talking the moment her throat was sliced open.
    So, we are to suggest their battle style or strategy was wrong or something?
    You view the Bleachverse as if it already exists and use your perspective to change the outcome of fights, I suppose. Regardless of how bad they did against Kenpachi (same goes for other SR that were defeated), the outcome doesn't change, without using deduction and logic, which re-makes the manga in a different way, I believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    Loyd became Kenpachi, and I don't mean he looked similar, he was actually Kenpachi with the exact same strength, speed and durability. It's pointless to even talk about it because it was literally Kenpachi fighting himself.
    So what? Since he was fighting his equally strong copy, do we need to believe that the fight was a one-hit KO or easy?
    Judging by his character, if Kenpachi says it wasn't that easy, it was definitely like hell for anyone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    Because the plot demanded them to lose without even giving them a character. Even if they actually intended to do something the magical force behind every event and action impeded them fighting back. And back to the point, Kenpachi killing three idiots is not a testament of strength.
    Generally, the fights always end in an idiotic way, so, I don't see any reason to be bothered by that. All SR that have been defeated fought like idiots, after all. It's not just favoring Kenpachi by any means.

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    If what makes him "live up to his war potential title" is killing three guys with the worst decision making recorded in history then it doesn't talk about Kenpachi's title at all, it just puts him on the same level as a child murderer or the "watching paint dry" champion. Also, "War Potential" is not a title given based on strength alone as I already explained.
    Intellect and utilizing a certain power's usage are also parts of a person's qualities. If those three didn't have, it does little change in the outcome. They were still qualified to become SR fighters the way they fought. I wonder who Kenpachi should have defeated in order to become worthy of a praise regarding strength.

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    On the fact that Vollstandig pushes its user above the limit and grants them total domination of their surroundings on a god scale? Much like the final technique of a Zanpakuto is a step beyond Bankai and also pushes its user beyond the limit. "Final Getsuga Tenshou" is not a transcendental power by the way, it's just the final technique. Ichigo's ascension to one was due to the harmony of all of his power and becoming one for a while.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    I'm going to assume you overdosed on opium when you wrote this, therefore your mental capacity was temporarily reduced to near zero. No feats? What about Ishida instantly splitting a Bankai in half with ridiculous ease (something not even Aizen can do) with the inferior Letzt Stil? Or how about Quilgue being able to (almost) keep up with Ichigo, who by the way is several times stronger now than he was before the timeskip? Or how about the fact that Vollstandig and its ability to absorb and manipulate reishi is so powerful the user becomes a near god with the ability to absorb and enslave ANYTHING in seconds, and constantly strengthen at an alarming speed by transforming matter into even more energy? It was not a coincidence that Ichigo was used to test the power of Vollstandig, as everybody else would have died (or "lived") in a second.
    No, Ichigo's ascension and becoming one were two different phases. The move that made him one with his Zanpakuto was the Final Getsuga Tenshou, which was also the move that caused him to lose his powers.

    You keep saying Letzt Stil is inferior and I keep saying the power difference of the two wasn't stated. Until then, all remains as a fact is Letzt Stil is inferior due to because of its fragility.

    Exactly. That's what I'm talking about. Everyone else is going to die in a second? That's just your evaluation of the situation. Not a fact by any means.

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    A creature capable of destroying multiple vice captains with ease, which is actually no small feat. And it was absorbed ALIVE in seconds, and enslaved to his will. He was also about to absorb everybody else before Ichigo jumped in. And I'm going to assume that you had an accident that temporarily blinded you when the chapters came out because otherwise it's impossible to have missed the level of power displayed by Quilgue.
    It's a sort of unconscious being. It has no reasoning at all, so, it could go attack head on and be absorbed. Everyone else? Fraccion, Orihime and Chad, you mean? Non-existent factors, I'd say. They aren't captain-level, so, we shouldn't bother to consider them as a part of the equation.

    Anyway, Torran, I'm tired of your temporary this, temporary that attitude. Normally, I could delete those parts of your post since you are openly calling out a user (me in this case), but in order to keep my objectivity, I cannot do such a thing.
    Keep enjoying the forums and take care.

  5. #139
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyagi View Post
    I believe
    You are also free to believe in the Earth being flat or the Illuminati but that doesn't make them true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyagi View Post
    these quincies were much weaker than Kenpachi
    Unfounded. No reason to believe this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyagi View Post
    I honestly don't think Kubo would waste three strong characters in such a manner.
    This is your roundabout way to avoid the fact that they lost like clowns. They were disposable, regardless of their strength, because all that takes to make Kenpachi look strong is by killing three strong characters even if he killed them in absurd ways regardless of strength.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyagi View Post
    There's no evidence that they were as strong as Royd,
    If nearly every SR has been shown to be strong enough to handle a captain, why would these be the only exceptions? More so why would Royd's IDENTICAL TWIN brother be any inferior? Didn't he become Kenpachi in almost every way? No, actually, there's no evidence that they were any different, and all the SR were generally regarded equal. It's up to you to prove that they were somehow inferior to other SR (you can't) because by default they are just as powerful, skilled or special as every other SR until proved otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyagi View Post
    on the contrary they were taken care of pretty quickly by an enemy who was standing right before them.
    And I've already explained why their power was irrelevant because they put close to no effort in trying to kill Kenpachi. If you want more examples of powerful characters taken down by inferior opponents with ease you can look at Tousen, Barragan, Starrk, Yami, Tousen again, Aizen, Tsukishima ,Yukio and Quilgue. Their level of power was irrelevant because for one reason or another they didn't use their powers to their full potential against their opponent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyagi View Post
    You base your opinion on a premise which is very much debatable
    I'd like you to see debate the post above yours.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyagi View Post
    MHO the simple explanation that Kenpachi defeated three weaklings works perfectly and is more consistent with the events in the manga.
    The simple explanation here is that you are ignoring everything that doesn't fit your unfounded belief that they were weaklings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyagi View Post
    I believe the natural conclusion of the manga is that shinigami will defeat the antagonists of the arc, quincies, I'll be surprised if quincies come out on top no matter what abilities they use
    ...W-...Really? You could at least be more specific. Not even a mention about the story implications.
    This might come in handy. Maybe one in more analysis to come:

    The Thousand Year Blood War buildup and recap:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3091160

  6. #140
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Well, we at MH don't impose our opinions on other members. Everybody is entitled to their opinions and even if I sometimes don't agree with other members, I respect their opinions and their right to express them. "I know the best" kind of attitude isn't welcome here and it certainly makes a healthy discussion impossible. I won't debate whether or not the characters you mentioned were inferior to their opponents, it's outside the scope of this topic. I'll just say I strongly disagree with your interpretation and I still maintain the idea that if a character gets fodderized, then it means that character is most likely a weakling compared to his opponent.

    I need to emphasize that being defeated is different from being fodderized. When you get fodderized, your opponent makes short work of you with little effort, no tricks or sneak attacks. Among many examples, Yamamoto fodderized Allon and Driscoll, Ichigo fodderized Domino, Isshin fodderized GF, Nnoitra fodderized Chad, Aizen fodderized Hitsugaya (in SS arc) and Kenpachi fodderized Giriko and these three SRs (perhaps except the last one), this is how I see it. I honestly don't care whether they were idiots or not because at the end of the day, they were still fodder as shown by the manga. If you have problems with the execution of the plot, I'm not the person who can solve them nor have any intention to do so. I get your point but I simply disagree and will disagree until the manga gives me reason to think otherwise.

  7. #141
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    No, it wasn't anything to do with fanbase. Neither any other captain could there be. It was Kenpachi's role to get defeated, because a power-up is coming along his way, not someone else.
    And how is "getting defeated to display the helplessness of the Gotei 13" related to "Kenpachi getting a power up"? There were multiple ways to show him lose and in the end he lost to an imitation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Same with Byakuya.
    No. Byakuya can actually grow as a character or influence others by losing so humiliatingly and falling in battle without honor. Kenpachi's defeat ads nothing to him, he was disposed of as easily as he disposed of those three.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Not going to argue with the superiority thing again. We did it a million times already.
    And a million times have you ignored the obvious improvement of the Vollstandig over the Letzt Stil.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    So, we are to suggest their battle style or strategy was wrong or something?
    If their battle strategy is to:
    1. Disregard long ranged and defensive abilities and jump towards a short range fighter.
    2. Stand and talk forever, disregard defensive abilities.
    3. Become a perfect imitation for a 50/50 chance of winning, disregard long ranged and defensive abilities.

    Then yes, their strategy is flawed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    You view the Bleachverse as if it already exists and use your perspective to change the outcome of fights, I suppose.
    I guess there are multiple perspectives to see through panels on a 2D plane then. The first two were clearly shown getting cut without even knowing what hit them and that's not up to debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Regardless of how bad they did against Kenpachi (same goes for other SR that were defeated), the outcome doesn't change, without using deduction and logic, which re-makes the manga in a different way, I believe.
    I don't even know what is this doing here when my point has always been that Kenpachi killing three stupid characters doesn't make him strong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    So what? Since he was fighting his equally strong copy, do we need to believe that the fight was a one-hit KO or easy?
    Judging by his character, if Kenpachi says it wasn't that easy, it was definitely like hell for anyone else.
    ...Did I ever said anything about 1-hit KO? It was very clear that it was an actual fight because Loyd became a perfect imitation. It's still a stupid decision because by imitating somebody it means no advantage or disadvantage, essentially a 50/50 chance. But considering how Loyd is a Quincy and had all those fancy abilities like Blut Vene and maybe even Vollstandig and Sankt Zwinger then it was a really retarded decision to sacrifice them to imitate somebody with close to no skill or abilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Generally, the fights always end in an idiotic way, so, I don't see any reason to be bothered by that. All SR that have been defeated fought like idiots, after all. It's not just favoring Kenpachi by any means.
    And that would just go to prove my point that beating three idiots doesn't make Kenpachi strong either way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Intellect and utilizing a certain power's usage are also parts of a person's qualities. If those three didn't have, it does little change in the outcome. They were still qualified to become SR fighters the way they fought.
    That just falls into the logical fallacy that because they were competent enough to be selected, they were competent at the time they fought Kenpachi.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    I wonder who Kenpachi should have defeated in order to become worthy of a praise regarding strength.
    Anybody, including those three, as long as they had actually fought doing everything they could, but they didn't, so that makes them worthless to quantify Kenpachi's strength.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    No, Ichigo's ascension and becoming one were two different phases. The move that made him one with his Zanpakuto was the Final Getsuga Tenshou, which was also the move that caused him to lose his powers.
    The reason he became a transcendental was because his Shinigami and Hollow powers became one in harmony, unlike his previous self or the Vaizados or Tousen where there was always a dominant side. Ichigo transcended Shinigami and Hollow because he was and had overcome both to become something new, the Final Getsuga Tenshou is a mere Shinigami ability.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    You keep saying Letzt Stil is inferior and I keep saying the power difference of the two wasn't stated. Until then, all remains as a fact is Letzt Stil is inferior due to because of its fragility.
    Compare the performance difference between Ishida and Quilgue, and I'm not talking about their fighting styles, I'm talking about everything as far as the basic boost to absolute domination of reishi is concerned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Exactly. That's what I'm talking about. Everyone else is going to die in a second? That's just your evaluation of the situation. Not a fact by any means.
    Don't go around ignoring how powerful Vollstandig is. Ichigo can barely fight against it, what makes you think anybody else can?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    It's a sort of unconscious being. It has no reasoning at all, so, it could go attack head on and be absorbed.
    Ayon wasn't that close to begin with. And the Vollstandig absorbs everything at a distance, not just from within reach.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Everyone else? Fraccion, Orihime and Chad, you mean? Non-existent factors, I'd say. They aren't captain-level, so, we shouldn't bother to consider them as a part of the equation.
    Just Fraccion? There are not just mere Fraccion like those under Grimmjow or Szayel, these can actually do some damage. And Inoue and Chad? They are far more powerful than what you think. Non captain level? Right. And even then, why does it matter? A Shinigami is made out of spiritual particles, and so is a captain Shinigami. If Quilgue absorbed Ayon in seconds it should give you an idea of how powerful the ability to collect reishi is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Anyway, Torran, I'm tired of your temporary this, temporary that attitude. Normally, I could delete those parts of your post since you are openly calling out a user (me in this case), but in order to keep my objectivity, I cannot do such a thing.
    Keep enjoying the forums and take care.
    It's not like you are displaying much objectivity to begin with, always ignoring or disregarding so many of my points without a proper rebuttal.

    ---------- Post added at 04:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:21 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyagi View Post
    Well, we at MH don't impose our opinions on other members. Everybody is entitled to their opinions and even if I sometimes don't agree with other members, I respect their opinions and their right to express them. "I know the best" kind of attitude isn't welcome here and it certainly makes a healthy discussion impossible.
    I'm going to quote Aizen for this. If I explain the process at which I arrived to a conclusion and prove evidence and logical deduction while you keep using roundabout tactics and evasive responses to maintain your point then it simply means that your opinion is inherently inferior to mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyagi View Post
    I won't debate whether or not the characters you mentioned were inferior to their opponents, it's outside the scope of this topic.
    It's not outside of the topic as you are using their loses to estimate the power of a character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyagi View Post
    I'll just say I strongly disagree with your interpretation and I still maintain the idea that if a character gets fodderized, then it means that character is most likely a weakling compared to his opponent.
    That is a logical fallacy, which will get you nowhere on the long run. It's such an easy trick to rely on though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyagi View Post
    I need to emphasize that being defeated is different from being fodderized. When you get fodderized, your opponent makes short work of you with little effort, no tricks or sneak attacks. Among many examples, Yamamoto fodderized Allon and Driscoll, Ichigo fodderized Domino, Isshin fodderized GF, Nnoitra fodderized Chad, Aizen fodderized Hitsugaya (in SS arc) and Kenpachi fodderized Giriko and these three SRs (perhaps except the last one), this is how I see it.
    And getting fodderized can happen for many reasons. In fiction so many strong or capable people get fodderized in so many different ways that I doubt there's ever going to be a full list.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyagi View Post
    I honestly don't care whether they were idiots or not because at the end of the day, they were still fodder as shown by the manga.
    You are once again evading the point. If Kenpachi killed them with such ease was because they were idiots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyagi View Post
    If you have problems with the execution of the plot, I'm not the person who can solve them nor have any intention to do so.
    No work of fiction is exempt from author intervention, but that is just unrelated. You are claiming that Kenpachi beating those three SR is a testament of his strength when it is not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyagi View Post
    I get your point but I simply disagree and will disagree until the manga gives me reason to think otherwise.
    The manga already shows and says they died like idiots without effort or any need of strength and the rest can be concluded by the use of logic, comparison and analysis of the facts, so you are pretty much ignoring it because it doesn't fit what you believe.
    This might come in handy. Maybe one in more analysis to come:

    The Thousand Year Blood War buildup and recap:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3091160

  8. #142
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    If they died like idiots, then they were weaker than Kenpachi. Anyone who dies that easily is pretty weak whether you like it or not.

  9. #143
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    The question i keep asking myself is why JB called himLoyd Royd's R, if you take into consideration that neither was able to imitate appearances, then JB must of boosted their powers to give them that ability, or he cloned them both
    Last edited by devstauk; January 26, 2013 at 08:25 PM.
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    If they died like idiots, then they were weaker than Kenpachi. Anyone who dies that easily is pretty weak whether you like it or not.
    The epitome of weakness.

    See? I can use fallacies and twisted logic too!
    This might come in handy. Maybe one in more analysis to come:

    The Thousand Year Blood War buildup and recap:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3091160

  11. #145
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    The epitome of weakness.

    See? I can use fallacies and twisted logic too!
    No, you're using inability to comprehend!

    If they were stronger htan Kenpachi, then Kenpachi wouldn't have been able to deal that kind of damage to them. It's like Dragon Ball Z, where someone like Krillin wouldn't have been able to hurt Frieza even if Frieza was being an idiot, due to difference in their power. The fact that Kenpachi was able to kill them without a problem, regardless of them being an idiot or not, proves they were weak. Bleach isn't Part I Naruto where power levels didn't matter.

    If Kenpachi was as idiotic as the ones he killed were when he fought Ichigo part I, he'd still be strong because Ichigo still wouldn't have been able to wound him, at least at start of the fight. In this case, all that could have happened was that the idiots would have died later, but they'd have lost eventually.

  12. #146
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    No, you're using inability to comprehend!
    This is going to come back to bite your ass off real soon.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    If they were stronger htan Kenpachi, then Kenpachi wouldn't have been able to deal that kind of damage to them.
    Unlike the Shinigami who can strengthen their bodies with their own reiatsu or Arrancar who have thick reiatsu skin, the Quincy have an ability called Blut Vene which must be activated. When it does, it's capable of withstanding some of the most powerful abilities or attacks in the Bleachverse, when it doesn't, the Quincy is all by itself. We know that they didn't use Blut Vene (and it has already been explained in detail multiple times in this thread) because otherwise it would not be consistent with every other display of Blut Vene and because the look on their faces doesn't tell that they felt they had to use it. So all that remains is a human with abilities, but human nonetheless, just like the Fullbring. At this point strength is not even relevant because Kenpachi was just cutting flesh and bone, and not only that, he's a captain with captain strength and capable of cutting through Hierro (but not Blut Vene).

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    It's like Dragon Ball Z, where someone like Krillin wouldn't have been able to hurt Frieza even if Frieza was being an idiot, due to difference in their power.
    No it's not. Weaker characters hurt stronger characters all the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    The fact that Kenpachi was able to kill them without a problem, regardless of them being an idiot or not, proves they were weak. Bleach isn't Part I Naruto where power levels didn't matter.
    And that entire paragraph is just you trying to justify your claim by using incredibly flawed deduction and ignoring details (which have also been posted multiple times in this thread)/

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    If Kenpachi was as idiotic as the ones he killed were when he fought Ichigo part I, he'd still be strong
    Had he been an idiot on the same level of this guys, he could have been strong, yes, but he wouldn't have removed his eye patch against Ichigo, he wouldn't have tried to use his brain whilst fighting Tousen or he wouldn't have used two hands against Nnoitra. And I'm being generous here, if I was comparing him to the Question, he would have just stood there while those opponents killed him in a second; I'm comparing him to the Roar in the sense that he would be disregarding his own strength and advantages and jump to his death.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    because Ichigo still wouldn't have been able to wound him, at least at start of the fight.
    All it takes to cut Kenpachi is some sharpened reiatsu, something Ichigo often lacks the capacity to do. Quincies who are generally expert reiatsu manipulators shouldn't have a problem fighting Kenpachi at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    In this case, all that could have happened was that the idiots would have died later, but they'd have lost eventually.
    If you have read the thread you would know there are so many different ways they could have killed Kenpachi with ease hadn't they been so idiotic.
    This might come in handy. Maybe one in more analysis to come:

    The Thousand Year Blood War buildup and recap:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3091160

  13. #147
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    This is going to come back to bite your ass off real soon.
    Excuse me while I quiver in my boots over an online threat.



    Quote Quote:
    Unlike the Shinigami who can strengthen their bodies with their own reiatsu or Arrancar who have thick reiatsu skin, the Quincy have an ability called Blut Vene which must be activated. When it does, it's capable of withstanding some of the most powerful abilities or attacks in the Bleachverse, when it doesn't, the Quincy is all by itself. We know that they didn't use Blut Vene (and it has already been explained in detail multiple times in this thread) because otherwise it would not be consistent with every other display of Blut Vene and because the look on their faces doesn't tell that they felt they had to use it. So all that remains is a human with abilities, but human nonetheless, just like the Fullbring. At this point strength is not even relevant because Kenpachi was just cutting flesh and bone, and not only that, he's a captain with captain strength and capable of cutting through Hierro (but not Blut Vene).
    So the Quincies were still weak because their own power was nowhere near Kenpachi's, without Blut Vene. I'm not incorrect here, considering the Quincy did get killed. If they were strong enough, Kenpachi wouldn't have been able to get such an easy win, which shows that without Blut Vene, they're much lower than Kenpachi in terms of strength.



    Quote Quote:
    No it's not. Weaker characters hurt stronger characters all the time.
    Because they don't act like idiots. And these weaker characters got owned. The weaker characters that hurt stronger characters dont' get owned so quickly like that, they actually try to fight.



    Quote Quote:
    And that entire paragraph is just you trying to justify your claim by using incredibly flawed deduction and ignoring details (which have also been posted multiple times in this thread)/
    What details have I ignored? I'm not a freakin' Bleach otaku, SORRY. But my deduction isn't flawed, considering if they were good enough, they wouldn't have been killed that quickly or effortlessly. Look at Gohan vs. Cell. He was weaker than Cell but still survived Cell's onslaught before he finally snapped. Look at Krillin, he was so weak that Piccolo's henchman killed him without any problem, apparently.



    Quote Quote:
    Had he been an idiot on the same level of this guys, he could have been strong, yes, but he wouldn't have removed his eye patch against Ichigo, he wouldn't have tried to use his brain whilst fighting Tousen or he wouldn't have used two hands against Nnoitra. And I'm being generous here, if I was comparing him to the Question, he would have just stood there while those opponents killed him in a second; I'm comparing him to the Roar in the sense that he would be disregarding his own strength and advantages and jump to his death.
    Which is why Kenpachi is stronger, because he's smart and powerful. Who up to this point is still alive? Kenpachi. Who's not? Those Quincies he killed. Concept's not hard to get. The Quincies with Blut Vene may have been stronger, but the fact is, without it they're weaker than Kenpachi.



    Quote Quote:
    All it takes to cut Kenpachi is some sharpened reiatsu, something Ichigo often lacks the capacity to do. Quincies who are generally expert reiatsu manipulators shouldn't have a problem fighting Kenpachi at all.
    Then why, pray tell, they got killed?



    Quote Quote:
    If you have read the thread you would know there are so many different ways they could have killed Kenpachi with ease hadn't they been so idiotic.
    I did. Bad memory on something that I read so casually, though.

    But them being idiotic shows they're weak. In battles, you can't claim to be strong, and then be killed by your idiocy. That shows you're weak, at least mentally.

  14. #148
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Excuse me while I quiver in my boots over an online threat.
    You somehow managed to turn your own insult into some kind of real life threat over an internet forum... I don't know how you did it but I congratulate you on that.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    So the Quincies were still weak because their own power was nowhere near Kenpachi's
    Quincies are human and therefore have human durability, unlike the Shinigami or Arrancar that become more durable as they get strong. A Quincy is going to be of flesh and bones regardless of power. This is some weak logic you are applying here, correlating power with getting cut in such a case.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    I'm not incorrect here, considering the Quincy did get killed.
    You are incorrect in thinking that some humans were weak because they died.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    If they were strong enough, Kenpachi wouldn't have been able to get such an easy win, which shows that without Blut Vene, they're much lower than Kenpachi in terms of strength.
    "If they were strong enough"doesn't apply. They made stupid decisions and died like idiots. It says nothing of Kenpachi's strength if all he had to do was raise his sword because his opponent jumped at him.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Because they don't act like idiots. And these weaker characters got owned. The weaker characters that hurt stronger characters dont' get owned so quickly like that, they actually try to fight
    What you are doing here is taking your own claim and using it as a basis for your next claim, essentially going full circle in a never ending cycle. You should first justify your claim and then you can use it.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    What details have I ignored? I'm not a freakin' Bleach otaku, SORRY.
    \

    The details posted already on this thread, about how and why Kenpachi killed those three with ease.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    But my deduction isn't flawed, considering if they were good enough, they wouldn't have been killed that quickly or effortlessly.
    You defend yourself saying that your deduction isn't flawed by using flawed deduction, making your points like a circle, and I don't even know where to start. If you remove their guaranteed death due to their roles as disposable characters for the sake of making Kenpachi look strong from the equation, then you are left with three guys with plenty of skills and abilities, as well as competent enough to fight among the King's personal army, who didn't even use half of them and instead chose to engage in a fight with their guard down. If Kenpachi killed them so effortlessly is because they didn't even try to take him down.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Look at Gohan vs. Cell. He was weaker than Cell but still survived Cell's onslaught before he finally snapped. Look at Krillin, he was so weak that Piccolo's henchman killed him without any problem, apparently.
    Dragonball is bad and you should stop using it as an example. If you must then use examples from Bleach.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Which is why Kenpachi is stronger, because he's smart and powerful. Who up to this point is still alive? Kenpachi. Who's not? Those Quincies he killed. Concept's not hard to get. The Quincies with Blut Vene may have been stronger, but the fact is, without it they're weaker than Kenpachi.
    But it's not a fact. Your entire argument is based on your conception that the winner is stronger.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Then why, pray tell, they got killed?
    I have already explained this multiple times in this thread alone. They were meant to be killed with ease because the plot demanded it to, and also demanded them to refrain from using their abilities to their full potential.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    But them being idiotic shows they're weak. In battles, you can't claim to be strong, and then be killed by your idiocy. That shows you're weak, at least mentally.
    Kenpachi has acted like an idiot for almost the entire series, and defeated and survived fights against his opponents by dumb luck alone, and he isn't weak. But that's not even the real issue here, the point is that they were idiots because they didn't use their abilities, powers or skills, not because they were actually retarded.
    This might come in handy. Maybe one in more analysis to come:

    The Thousand Year Blood War buildup and recap:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3091160

  15. #149
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    You somehow managed to turn your own insult into some kind of real life threat over an internet forum... I don't know how you did it but I congratulate you on that.
    What are you talking about? What insult? I don't see any insult, but whatever.


    Quote Quote:
    Quincies are human and therefore have human durability, unlike the Shinigami or Arrancar that become more durable as they get strong. A Quincy is going to be of flesh and bones regardless of power. This is some weak logic you are applying here, correlating power with getting cut in such a case.
    The Quincies could have reacted to Zaraki before he cut them. If you guys are talking about who I think you are, then two Sternritters did attack Zaraki and were defeated. Basically, they weren't strong enough to beat him, even when one imitated his power.



    Quote Quote:
    You are incorrect in thinking that some humans were weak because they died.
    No, I am not. That's the rule of nature. You're weak if you get killed by enemy, regardless of how strong you are. Ichigo can be stronger than Chad by miles, but if Chad manages to kill him because Ichigo gets too arrogant, then it shows Ichigo was weak all along.



    Quote Quote:
    "If they were strong enough"doesn't apply. They made stupid decisions and died like idiots. It says nothing of Kenpachi's strength if all he had to do was raise his sword because his opponent jumped at him.
    Once again, if it's this, then they didn't die because of stupid decisions. Either way, they would not have been able to beat Zaraki because they can either defend or attack with Blut, not both. If they defend against Zaraki's attacks, then they'd probably survive, but they would not be able to wound him. If they did increase their attack power instead, then they'd have to make sure Zaraki gets incapacitated otherwise it's game over for them.

    It does say enough about Kenpachi's strength in relation to the Quincies' strength if they managed to be killed so quickly. If the Quincies were strong enough, they could to some degree fight back.



    Quote Quote:
    What you are doing here is taking your own claim and using it as a basis for your next claim, essentially going full circle in a never ending cycle. You should first justify your claim and then you can use it.
    Okay professor.

    Quote Quote:
    The details posted already on this thread, about how and why Kenpachi killed those three with ease.
    According to Kenpachi, he didn't have an easy time killing the imitation, just the other two. He never commented on the ape or imitator's intelligence, just that the ape was too weak.



    Quote Quote:
    You defend yourself saying that your deduction isn't flawed by using flawed deduction, making your points like a circle, and I don't even know where to start. If you remove their guaranteed death due to their roles as disposable characters for the sake of making Kenpachi look strong from the equation, then you are left with three guys with plenty of skills and abilities, as well as competent enough to fight among the King's personal army, who didn't even use half of them and instead chose to engage in a fight with their guard down. If Kenpachi killed them so effortlessly is because they didn't even try to take him down.
    It's not like your deduction's any less flawed.

    Once again, if you're talking about the ape, imitator, and the girl that Zaraki tore the throat of, it's shown that the ape did not have any skill or ability, and the imitator couldn't match Zaraki when he increased his power. Dunno about the girl. I haven't seen them fight, just where Zaraki mentions having fought them to Bach.



    Quote Quote:
    Dragonball is bad and you should stop using it as an example. If you must then use examples from Bleach.
    A Bleach reader is calling Dragon Ball bad? That's funny. If you were callin Dragon Ball Z bad, I could agree to an extent, but Dragon Ball is superior. However, we're off topic. And as I said, I'm not a Bleach fanboy that I'd remember every little thing or would bother rereading it over 5 times.



    Quote Quote:
    But it's not a fact. Your entire argument is based on your conception that the winner is stronger.
    And your entire argument is based on your conception that the three who were killed were only killed because they were dicking around when Zaraki says he fought two of them. And how is the winner NOT stronger? Ichigo was stronger than Aizen when he won. Aizen was stronger than Gin when he killed him, despite the fact that Gin would have killed him if it weren't for Hogyoku.



    Quote Quote:
    I have already explained this multiple times in this thread alone. They were meant to be killed with ease because the plot demanded it to, and also demanded them to refrain from using their abilities to their full potential.
    The Blut? Even if they used it, it'd have been a waste without proper strategy because if they increase their power, they'd be cut by Zaraki easily. If they increased their defense, then they wouldn't be able to deal any kind of damage to Zaraki. It was lose-lose either way.



    Quote Quote:
    Kenpachi has acted like an idiot for almost the entire series, and defeated and survived fights against his opponents by dumb luck alone, and he isn't weak. But that's not even the real issue here, the point is that they were idiots because they didn't use their abilities, powers or skills, not because they were actually retarded.
    He was stronger, which is something you apparently agree with.


    Didn't the imitator use his skill by imitating Zaraki? Or the ape guy by transforming into an ape?

  16. #150
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    I will spare some time:
    • Kirchenlied: Sankt Zwinger
    • Vollständig and it's different uses
    • Blue Vene/Arterie
    All of which could have been used by one or more of those three, but we not really know of.

    Torran says they didn't use anything at all, the other side says they could have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran
    Kenpachi has acted like an idiot for almost the entire series, and defeated and survived fights against his opponents by dumb luck alone, and he isn't weak.
    In the end Zaraki won all of these fights by using his skills, some of which he consciously didn't use to increase his "fun/purpose" of fighting. You might disagree with this, but that's what the mangaka has delivered. To reduce it all to idiocy of his enemies or pure luck is still ineffable.

    ---------- Post added at 06:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:33 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    No, they aren't. Only Yamamoto and Aizen can claim to be "above captain level" but everybody else is on the same range. And you just like everybody else used Soifon and Komamura as "weaker"or "low tier"captains even though there's absolutely no reason to believe that.
    Where do I mention any of those not being captains? Captain level can mean nearly above VC to CC, so please spare me this bullshit, it's getting tiresome.

    Those three named are clearly more capable of fighting a strong oponent than those named secondly. All of them are within the 400-600/600 range of battle data. Those in the early 400/600 are definitely not as capable as those around 500/600, while those around 600/600 are the epitome of shinigami. Yeah some of the information is outdated[Yamamoto was a clear 100/100, making him the #1 shinigami] and the power scales are conceivably growing as the manga has reached a point the mangaka hasn't thought of in the past, but I'm obviously just presenting it to present the point. I won't mention the Vaizards, as they were mostly trivialized in the FKT arc, there to show off their bankai and some of their skills.

    Quote Quote:
    Do you actually believe those databook stats from like 8 years ago? They are not even accurate or live up to the characters they try to portray.

    But back to the "above captain level" thing, every captain seemed to be having trouble, so it's fair to assume they are at the very least on a level to fight a captain on base or Shikai level equally.
    Aside from a couple mistakes because Kubo didn't reveal everything or had retconned stuff to work for the "then" plot, yes most of them look quiet accurate.

    Are you dull, where did I state that they are above captain lvl or something like that? Stop putting things into my mouth MH's official Bleach smart ass #1. I'm sick of that attitude, as are most others that come to argue with you.

    Quote Quote:
    I'm going to exclude Unohana because she's just fighting for the first time (and she defeated Kenpachi with ridiculous ease), but what has Shunsui ever done that makes him an overall better fighter? He knows how to use a sword, but so does everybody else (except Kenpachi at the moment).
    He and Ukitake were ready to clash with Yamamoto and likely had a chance to hinder him for some time, low tier captains like Komamura would very likely have not. His Zanpakatou has a the potential to inflict massive damage through concious usage of the different games. Yeah Genryuusei, you lying swine.



    Quote Quote:
    They would have absorbed the entire pillar only to lose that power shortly after deactivating Vollstandig, and only normal Shinigami were around when the SR arrived.
    It's only you assumption that they would lose all that power once deactivated, maybe they are able to use the stored up energy once used again. Shunsui's opponent didn't seem to care for "absorption time" when he had gone into Vollständig to suprise him.

    Quote Quote:
    Strawman. It was about defeats and deaths combined.
    So would Yamamoto have ran around SS, turning every SR unconscious or at least knocking them away, while another fights starts, where those that have been knocked around have no reason or place to be, that would have turned your casuality counter to 16+? Oo Call it strawman, seem like you turn reality the way you want to win an argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    & as a result of that many of them got killed in the most stupidest way possible.
    And no again. Doesn't look like we are talking about defeats here at all.

    Quote Quote:
    Without Ichigo exhausting his reiatsu and injured himself inside the Jail, Bach would have been in some deep shit.
    Here is the fundamental difference between you and mean. I state and opinion as such, you do so by stating it as a fact. Have fun.

    Quote Quote:
    Ishida was able to annihilate Mayuri' in less than a minute, Quilgue was able to keep up with Ichigo for the most part and Mustacho was able to overpower Shunsui in half a second. What makes you think a captain would stand a chance against the most overpowered ability in Bleach?
    Not every shinigami captain is Mayuri. [Battle data: Top Right: Defense (70), Bottom Right: Mobility (40)] :O

    So if Quilge was capable of holding back Ichigo, but Shaz was killed in one hit, but Ichigo would have caused some "deep shit" to Bach, if he was as full of stamina as in the first mentioned fight, where does that put Haschwald, who has shown Ichigo that is by far not ready to fight them? Where does that put all of the SR, all incredibly skilled, yet one half being incredibely stupid and uncapable of fighting a someone whom they can't steal their bankai from?

    What makes me think so? Shunsui still being alive and running after 15+minutes of fighting a Quincy actually using Vollständig. There is absolutely no reason to think that he hadn't used it repeatedly, name me a single one.

    Quote Quote:
    The point of the invasion was that the Gotei 13 would suffer serious losses, not to show any fighting. But even then, Vollstandig is far too powerful to fight directly so no captain would have been able to survive a battle against it, unless the user were as stupid as those three Kenpachi killed.
    Nonsense. Yamamoto is gone, the highest possible loss by a huge degree. Byakuya was rendered near-dead and uncapable of fighting, three other captains him uncluded lost their strongest asset. Those are huge losses, losing over a third of captains full battle potential. Stop with that Vollständig jabbering already. How about I won't reply to those statements, unless you can provide your claims to work for most SternRitter, or at least show evidence that nobody but mustache Quincy used in in the battle.

    Quote Quote:
    Nope.
    Yeah yeah, it is, sadly you can't accept the truth. I start to question your ability to differentiate your theories with hard facts.

    Quote Quote:
    What makes you think he didn't? Not only was he a Stern Ritter, his power was also to become stronger with every kill.
    Clearly not enough to hurt the CC. You mean attacks like this, which Shigekuni swatted away like a mere fly? Good one.

    Quote Quote:
    Every other Stern Ritter who has used Blut Vene has been able to survive immense amount of attack power, and that includes standing less than a meter away from Yamamoto whilst using both West and East.

    Why would Driscoll be an exception? And look at how he thought Yamamoto was unconscious, even less reason to use it.
    Every other attack != Ryujin Jakka. Also Royd > Discroll by a huge margin, don't even care what you think about this, but that's what was shown.

    If the Bankai isn't influenced by BA or BV/the Quincy using it, than Discroll had no reason to go into BA mode, none at all. But ignore all that, what exactly did stop him from activating BV, while Yamamoto had the time to shout: "Certainly not something of this level!" Suprise alone? If yes, than he clearly had not earned a title such as Sternritter.

    Quote Quote:
    And what makes you think he couldn't? He was also a SR, and he killed 200 Shinigami in a very short time and was essentially toying with Hisagi. At the very least he should be worthy enough of fighting among Bach's personal army.
    At the very least, yeah. He killed the average amount of Shinigami fodder, nothing impressive, as Äs Nodt and the girl had killed dozens at once too. Anybody only capable of less would not be worth fighting the captains to begin with.


    Quote Quote:
    Yamamoto was burnt and bleeding, so eventually Driscoll should have been able to kill him with the Bankai alone, even more if he got the hang out of it.
    Still nowhere near his full potential.

    Quote Quote:
    The plot demanded for this. It's no coincidence that Bach hated the Shinigami for whatever happened a millennium back and Yamamoto was involved. Taking the very foundation of the Gotei 13 is pivotal for the story, every other captain was irrelevant at that moment except for maybe Byakuya if he was really meant to die before the fanbase/editors kicked in.
    Quote Quote:
    Don't twist my point like that.
    You've got to come to terms with what you want. If any captain but the CC was irrelevant, than who had to die? What did you want to adress in the beginning? Any direct evidence or recorded talk between Kubo and his editors back that claim up? It just shows that the captains were capable of holding some SternRitter back, like the Rose or Hitsugaya encounter. You don't think those five new Shinigami will do all the work from now, do you? The Quincy might still outnumbe the Shinigami by a bit, so nearly everybody is needed again.

    Quote Quote:
    As already said, Byakuya's defeat was also important. Nobody else could have been defeated, as long as the foundations of the Gotei 13 were destroyed, the main objective of the invasion chapters.
    So what?

    Quote Quote:
    And what a coincidence, that those four Bankai were from characters that use their Bankai all the time! It was all going according to story demands. Kenpachi was demanded to be beaten, so to make him look a little better the story demanded him to kill a few SR on the way.
    It's a damn shounen manga with lot's of "perfect" match-up fights due to the number of different abilities. Do you want this manga to turn something it has never been?
    Firm but Fair

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