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Thread: How did Kenpachi get beat?

  1. #166
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member DraMas26's Avatar
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    I don't think the pillars of blue fire were actually used to enter sereitei. I mean, the pillars were not a factor earlier when the war was declared. More so, while not as extreme as in SS the blue fire was also seen during the HM invasion of the quincy. I would argue the purpose of the fire is limited to releasing reishi so that the quincy have more of it available to use while fighting. Back when ishida and chad went to hueco mundo ishida showed something very interesting. He was unable to attack his huge enemy arrancar because the arrancar was hogging all the reishi in the air for his own attacks. In this regard the quincy do compete with each other for reishi in some scenarios. Over saturating the environment with reishi ensures that quincy don't have to compete with each other and it helps the quincy maintain top form in combat. Overall I would think the quincy and juhabach went into SS independently of the blue fire. Rather they started the fires after they got there. They entered SS the same way we have seen them move earlier, with the shadow thing. Perhaps more importantly, the fire did not seem to play a role in the quincy leaving SS, that was just the shadows.
    http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/490

    An order was given to all the SR to assemble at the Sun Gate.

    The SR entered through pillars of fire.

    I think there's a connection.

    The fire can be used to amass reishi in SS as well but i don't think that negates its use as an entry method.

    The SR clearly entered through the pillars of reishi fire:

    http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/494/9

    Their reiatsu isn't detected until they are about to emerge from it.

    Juhabach was the only one who entered without the fire pillar method but that was probably because he was the one who had to create the pillars of fire in the first place.

    The SR didn't use fire pillars to exit from SS because there was no Sun Gate in SS.

    ---------- Post added at 08:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:12 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by NoOneInParticular View Post
    But couldn't the fact that Haschvald used the pillar while Bach didn't also suggest it's Haschwald's technique? Anyway, the SR used those pillars to enter the battlefield. Bach/Royd weren't actually fighting though. Until Kenpachi challenged him, he was just standing in the air overseeing the whole thing. That could be why he didn't bother using a pillar.



    True, but Quilge had some kind of monitoring device attached to his glasses, allowing him to recieve orders from HQ. If Royd's purpose was to draw out Yama's techniques, I imagine Bach would have had a means of monitoring the situation from afar.
    Actually Bach/Royd might have been fighting:

    http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/502/15

    Bach/Royd had already landed before Kenpachi showed up and we see bodies of dead Shinigami around him and Haschwalt.

    Also the reason why I believe that the pillars of reishi fire was an ability of Bach is due to the circumstantial evidence surrounding its use:

    1. Bach entered SS alone by himself and then the pillars appeared. All the SR used the pillars of reishi fire to enter.
    2. Bach didn't enter with Haschwalt which is strange because he's always with Haschwalt. Even during the invasion he was chatting with Haschwalt. If those two are so close then why didn't they enter together? Why didn't Haschwalt go to the Sun Gate with Bach:

    http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/490/2

    The fact that those 2 entered separately implies that they needed to enter separately i.e. Bach had to create the pillars of reishi fire while Haschwalt had to enter through them.
    3. Bach created a pillar of reishi fire to blow up 1st Division HQ.
    4. At some places multiple Quincies exited through the same pillar of reishi fire. This is evident because Akon says that enemy reiatsu was detected at 16 places but there were more than 16 SR (about 19 as far as we know but I personally believe there are 27-31). If multiple Quincies could exit through the same pillar then why couldn't Bach and Haschwalt come through the same pillar? At the same time the fact that multiple Quincies could enter through the same pillar or reishi fire implies that it was not their individual ability.

    Quigle didn't have a monitoring device. He never communicated with Bach during the battle. He most likely received orders beforehand on what to do in case Ichigo arrived in SS. His squad was the one who sent a telegram to Bach alerting him of Ichigo's presence in HM:

    http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/489/12

    Since Bach was busy talking with Aizen in Muken I doubt he had time to watch Royd's battle.

    Quote Quote:
    Maybe, but the Bach standing in the middle of the battlefield is the one Yamamoto will come for, and it's safer for Yamamoto to unleash his power on an expendable pawn than the leader himself. So it makes more sense for Royd to be the one stationed above ground, leaving Bach to handle the covert stuff, breaking into the prison where Aizen was.
    I'm not sure what you mean here. I mean if Bach was willing to have Royd manage the SWP and assuming he planned to use Royd form the start to impersonate him then shouldn't it have made more sense to send Royd after Aizen instead of going himself? That way Bach can steal Yama's Bankai more easily and kill him quicker. Why wait?

    Quote Quote:
    Well, we don't know how Bach infiltrated the 1st Division barracks and Muken. His subordinates managed to step into Yamamoto's office with no trouble, so it seems they have a means of getting places unseen. With all that was going on in Seireitei at the time, sneaking around might not have been difficult at all.
    But then with all going around in Seiretei shouldn't it have been easy to make a switch with Royd? As for Muken it is a prison but like all prisons it should have guards and if one of them reported that Juhabach was in Muken while there was another Juha on the battlefield the ploy will be exposed so there's a similar risk.

    ---------- Post added at 08:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:34 AM ----------

    What you must understand is that it's extremely unlikely the plan was to use Royd all along because the moment Royd copied Bach he would learn of every deep dark secret of his life.

    The plan was more likely to have Loyd copy Bach. Loyd would gain all his powers and he would not be prying into any personal memories of Bach.

    One thing I want to clear up is that assuming Royd was not the one to defeat Kenpachi, there is very little evidence to suggest he was as strong as many people make it out to be. During his battle with Yama he was pretty much just running away. The only technique he could use that may have left a scratch on Yama was Sankt Zwinger which was the most powerful Quincy Defensive Technique.

    Another scene that I see people misinterpreting is this:

    http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/506/13

    I've seen a lot of people say this the fact that Royd got a minor burn after he was cut by Ryuujin Jakka's flames proves he's uber powerful. However that is not true because Yama made no serious attempt at killing Royd when he was in Shikai. He believed that Royd was Bach and he hated Bach and he wanted to give him a humiliating defeat. He just didn't want to win. He wanted to humiliate 'Bach' by using his Bankai. In other words what I'm saying is Yama didn't use Bankai because he needed to, he used Bnakai because he wanted to.

    Yama as good as admits it here:

    http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/506/14
    http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/506/15
    http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/506/16
    http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/506/17

    Yama clearly states he was waiting for Royd to draw out his sword so he could smash his flesh. blood and bones into pieces. In other words he wanted to give Bach a crushing defeat. Simpyl defeating him was not enough for Yama. That's why Yama used his Shikai to egg Royd into drawing out his blade. He was jsut egging him onto drawing out his blade so he obviously was not using his Shikai to the fullest. That's why Royd was able to sustain minor burns. It's obvious Yama was not going to kill Royd while in Shikai because then Royd would never draw out his sword and then Yama would never be able to give him the crushing defeat he so wanted to in Bankai.

    This is further seen when he specifically resurrects Bach's old men to take down Royd and even reminds him to take a careful look at whose skeletons he was destroying:

    http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/509/8

    In other words what I'm saying is that Yama got cocky and that's the main reason why Royd lasted so long against him. There really wasn't any need for him to immediately go Bankai either. He just used let his anger get the best of him.

    That's why it would make more sense for Loyd to be the one who was actually supposed to impersonate Bach. Bach is a clever guy and could probably predict that Yama would be tempted by his anger to use Bankai and would prefer to humiliate Juha himself before outright killing him.

    Now suppose that during the battle Yama was informed that the real Juha was in Muken. This is what would happen depending on who the imposter was:

    Royd - Yama would just incinerate him and leave. He could not afford to waste any more time on him.
    Loyd - Yama would try to finish Loyd off quickly but he would find it more difficult because Loyd copied all of Bach's abilities. Loyd would obviously take longer to kill and can prevent Yama from being able to reach Muken and confront the real Juha.

    So as far as I can see I just don't see how it was originally planned for Royd to be Bach's imposter. Loyd is just far more advantageous and could have done so much more. That's why I believe the original plan was to use Loyd and only use Royd as backup in case Royd falls early.

    Like I said earlier this can be used to help explain Bach's words in which he tells Royd that he did well after he returned from Muken.

  2. #167
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member devstauk's Avatar
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Im going to keep bringing this up, because i think it has a huge impact on how we should look at the beginning of the zaraki wipe out and then the end of yama, after Bach comes back he proceeds to say Loyd Royd's R that is a massive hint to it not just being one or the other but actually both combined with an extra ability to change appearance, it is also stated in the same chapter that neither was able to do that(change appearance)
    Spoiler show

  3. #168
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by DraMas26 View Post
    http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/490

    An order was given to all the SR to assemble at the Sun Gate.

    The SR entered through pillars of fire.

    I think there's a connection.

    The fire can be used to amass reishi in SS as well but i don't think that negates its use as an entry method.

    The SR clearly entered through the pillars of reishi fire:

    http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/494/9

    Their reiatsu isn't detected until they are about to emerge from it.

    Juhabach was the only one who entered without the fire pillar method but that was probably because he was the one who had to create the pillars of fire in the first place.

    The SR didn't use fire pillars to exit from SS because there was no Sun Gate in SS.
    It still seems like a bit of a stretch that the pillars would actually be an entry method. The point of suns gate and pillars of fire seems a tad far fetched at this point. We have not even seen the gate. Even if the gate was actually related to their actual traveling method, wouldn't it make more sense that it is related to the one we have seen for a fact? If there really is supposed to be a play of words here it would make more sense that the suns gate is related to the shadow they use. Kinda like the sun casting a shadow theme. It would perhaps be an interesting limiter for the quincy and their ability to go travel as right now it seems far too convenient (its fast to the point of it appearing teleportation).

    Even them appearing from the fire does not imply it necessarily is an entry method. As far as we know they could have simply used their shadows to get to the center of the fire before battle. It would be extremely convenient for the quincy to appear in the middle of the fire as they would be the points in SS where there would be the greatest concentration of reishi.

  4. #169
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by devstauk View Post
    Im going to keep bringing this up, because i think it has a huge impact on how we should look at the beginning of the zaraki wipe out and then the end of yama, after Bach comes back he proceeds to say Loyd Royd's R that is a massive hint to it not just being one or the other but actually both combined with an extra ability to change appearance, it is also stated in the same chapter that neither was able to do that(change appearance)
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...24-page-5.html
    http://mangahelpers.com/t/cnet128/releases/36050
    http://mangahelpers.com/t/badkarma/releases/35998


    Really? And second twin was KILLED by Kenpachi.

  5. #170
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Duniak is right. They can both change appearance. The reason Bach called him Loyd Royd's R instead of Royd was perhaps because they were indistinguishable normally and they were referred to as an entity together, rather than separately.

  6. #171
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member devstauk's Avatar
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Well i was going by the mangapanda translation, but the fact still remains that Royd shouldn't have been able to use that Kirchunlied (holy hymn) if he can only copy memories and Spirit, unless that its Royd's own move.

    Also JB(or Royd) had no chance of switching out before yama turned up since he was still holding Zaraki by the throat when yama turned up
    Spoiler show

  7. #172
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member g0dzax's Avatar
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Well,when that chapter first came out,I also thought exactly like devstauk,that something is fishy when Bach said "Loyd Royd" ..I thought then that if Royd copies appearance + memories + spirit and Loyd copies appearance + abilities + powers,I thought that Royd copied his brother's ability to copy memories and spirit and thus Royd gained the ability to copy memories and spirit of the person,besides his own ability of copying power and abilities...

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  9. #173
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by g0dzax View Post
    Well,when that chapter first came out,I also thought exactly like devstauk,that something is fishy when Bach said "Loyd Royd" ..I thought then that if Royd copies appearance + memories + spirit and Loyd copies appearance + abilities + powers,I thought that Royd copied his brother's ability to copy memories and spirit and thus Royd gained the ability to copy memories and spirit of the person,besides his own ability of copying power and abilities...
    Hm, if Royd can copy more than two people's ability simultaneously, that could be the case, but I'm not too sure about that.

  10. #174
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by devstauk View Post
    Well i was going by the mangapanda translation, but the fact still remains that Royd shouldn't have been able to use that Kirchunlied (holy hymn) if he can only copy memories and Spirit, unless that its Royd's own move
    There's nothing to suggest it was specific to Bach. And it was probably much weaker (we only have hype to judge by )
    Erfworld

    Quote Originally Posted by Bromamura View Post
    Meh can't have Bleach without fan raging, makes it fun.

  11. #175
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member River_Capulet's Avatar
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by devstauk View Post
    Well i was going by the mangapanda translation, but the fact still remains that Royd shouldn't have been able to use that Kirchunlied (holy hymn) if he can only copy memories and Spirit, unless that its Royd's own move.

    Also JB(or Royd) had no chance of switching out before yama turned up since he was still holding Zaraki by the throat when yama turned up
    If he copied memory, he also copied the memory in which Bach invented (perfected) that technique. If I copied the memory of Steve Jobs, I would know how to build an Ipod.

  12. #176
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member devstauk's Avatar
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by River_Capulet View Post
    If he copied memory, he also copied the memory in which Bach invented (perfected) that technique. If I copied the memory of Steve Jobs, I would know how to build an Ipod.
    Yes but the ability is still an ability, just because you have the memory of how to use it does not mean your body/spirit can create/use that ability, its like the mimic octopus i mean yeah the octopus can look identical to a number of other animals but its still an octopus which means its limited to do what an octopus does
    Last edited by devstauk; February 04, 2013 at 03:36 AM.
    Spoiler show

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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    It is FACT now that Zaraki is indeed incredibly strong and it was not lucky at all that he defeated the 3 SR very easily.
    Last edited by Hakuteiken; February 04, 2013 at 05:04 PM.

  14. #178
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member River_Capulet's Avatar
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by devstauk View Post
    Yes but the ability is still an ability, just because you have the memory of how to use it does not mean your body/spirit can create/use that ability, its like the mimic octopus i mean yeah the octopus can look identical to a number of other animals but its still an octopus which means its limited to do what an octopus does
    Well then it's totally depend on how strong Royd really is right? If he's strong enough, there wouldn't be any problem fro him to use Bach's technique.
    Last edited by Hakuteiken; February 04, 2013 at 05:04 PM.

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  16. #179
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Schabrak's Avatar
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Spoiler: Torran quote show

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    Last edited by Schabrak; February 04, 2013 at 04:11 PM. Reason: missing a word
    Twitter - Firm but Fair

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  18. #180
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nihonshu View Post
    It is FACT now that Zaraki is indeed incredibly strong
    Now? And what about the "weakened, shackled Kenpachi that Unohana killed tens or hundreds of times? That's the Kenpachi that killed those three Stern Ritter.
    Last edited by Hakuteiken; February 04, 2013 at 05:05 PM.
    This might come in handy. Maybe one in more analysis to come:

    The Thousand Year Blood War buildup and recap:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3091160

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