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Thread: How did Kenpachi get beat?

  1. #121
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Schabrak's Avatar
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    Your claim about there being a big difference between "the weakest and the strongest shinigami captain." is true bullshit.There's such thing as a "Captain class" and that means having high reiatsu and Bankai, and there's no such thing as a "weakest or strongest" captain since all the captains are regarded equal and some better in some areas than others, but all highly capable combatants. What the R&DI meant that the invaders consisted of 16 or 6 high level combatants of captain class or above, which is at the very least true for "Captain class" as almost nobody managed to kill a Stern Ritter, and chances are some of them where "above" (Bach and Haschwald pretty much confirmed).

    Driscoll, those other three, another three, and another one. That's half of those 16.

    The plot demanded to destroy the Gotei 13, and they did for the most part except for, you know, the captains and vice captains? Those 3k Shinigami they killed will take decades or centuries to recruit but most of the strongest fighters were left alive, including and especially Kenpachi. One second later and he would have been killed if not for Yamamoto.

    The captains were not allowed to use Bankai and the Stern Ritter didn't use Vollstandig (which is the equivalent of the Final Getsuga Tenshou of a Zanpakutou for a Quincy, not just the equivalent of a mere Bankai) either, so the fact that almost no Stern Ritter fell in battle and most of them were not even scratched talks a lot about them.

    Quilgue's fight doesn't count because he had to fight Ichigo. Any other captain class Shinigami would have lost with ease.
    Kyoraku, Unohana and Yamamoto are overall on a different tier than Suì-Feng and Komamura. Of course a lower tier captain can be better at stuff than an upper tier, only that they are overall not as good of a fighter.

    Quote Originally Posted by cnet128
    Akon: Amongst the enemy forces, there are at least 16 individuals with power comparable to or greater than a Captain-level Shinigami.
    disclaimer: I prefer to go with this version, since there is no real limit to what a captain is.

    "Comparable or greater", but what does greater mean? Does it mean that there is a clear another level, that they are above the overall median fighting capability of a G13 captain, that they in the 500-600/600 range in battle power similar to Kyouraku, Unohana, Aizen or Yamamoto? Unclear and as such not really usable in an argument. They also have been standing in a pillar of reiatsu, could have used Vollständig while standing in it to charge themself up with reiatsu and so seem to be far stronger than they normally are, unlikely, but possible for the smart ones them.

    Those three and another three? Which exactly? Since only the Mohawk one was shown alive, we should asume that the rest is dead? Oo

    Without the interference of Haschwald, Ichigo could have been killed by Bach too. Those are statements don't really matter, since they didn't happen that way. None of the Stern Ritter killed a captain, we don't know if or how many of those used Vollständig, with half of the SR not shown and most of the fights only shown through a couple of panels. Those 3k shinigami are important because they are there to work in the real world, taking out hollows, doing their work. Not bad for the big guns, but luckily those only appear every half millenium of so, enough time to find some new worthy candidates. Remember that only three senior captains from before 400 years are still in the G13, so captains may have be apointed annually, Rose and Love were new ones too in the TBTP arc.

    As above, we don't know how many of the Quincy used Vollständig in battle. Those that were shown as well as those that weren't could have done so, but it wasn't shown by Kubo to give them a double spread for extra effect when their last battle comes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    That's just your evaluation of the situation. Not a fact by any means.
    __________

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    What makes you so sure he didn't have a chance against Yamamoto? He didn't even use Blut Vene. If he had, he could have simply tanked every attack with minimal damage and eventually kill Yamamoto with Sasakibe's Bankai. It's still unknown if he could even use Vollstandig.

    Only Kay and I are backing our claims with sources and by rereading multiple times while you are trying to argue without evidence and out of memory.

    They destroyed some buildings and killed some low ranking Shinigami, but what about the captains and vice captains? Most of the strength of the Gotei 13 lies in them.
    What makes you so sure Discroll did have a chance against Yamamoto? What makes you sure that his Blut Vene was strong enough to defend against Ryujin Jakka? What makes you think that he could fight like Royd did? What makes you think that he eventually would beable to use Koko Gonryo Rikyu strong enough to really hurt Genryuusei?

    Your opinion only.

    They took the foundation stone of the Gotei 13, Genryuusei Yamamoto, mentor of two senior captains, one who is the current captain commander right now; the one capable of bringing the worst criminal to the good side, the one who had absolute authority, the one who could keep those very different individuals under one banner to follow a goal. Taking Yamamoto was as hard of a hit as taking the majority of captains. Not agreeing with that too? Than please don't even think of arguing any further.They also took the last member of a Noble House and turned him into a bloody pulp and probably turning him into a handicapped person for the rest of the series. All in all they took out 4 bankai users[Sasakibe, Abarai, Kuchiki, Yamamoto], stole the strongest Bankai available and totally handicaped four other captains of their bankai.
    Last edited by Hakuteiken; January 26, 2013 at 10:08 AM. Reason: Unnecessary conduct regarding off-topic issue.
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  2. #122
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyagi View Post
    There're no details, only 3-4 frames where Kenpachi says he fodderized them in his own humorous way.
    Quote Originally Posted by Miyagi View Post
    You fill in the blanks with the assumption that Kenpachi has nothing over those guys, I, on the other hand, conclude that if the mangaka deemed it appropriate that Kenpachi could fodderize them, then it means Kenpachi could fodderize them.
    I'm going to crush your claim by using evidence from the manga, from the dialogue and from a logical conclusion from the powers shown by the Quincy, as well as the fact that they were meant to be killed with ease regardless of their power.

    Yes, there are details and the rest can be concluded by pure logic. Take a close look at it because I don't intend to keep talking about this for any longer.

    First is the Roar, not only a Quincy and a Stern Ritter but also an ability that made him a long ranged fighter with the ability to blast opponents into pieces. What did he do? From three different translations it can be concluded that he charged towards Kenpachi:

    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...17-page-4.html
    http://www.mcanime.net/manga_enlinea...m/396006/4#ver
    Kenpachi:(最初のデカブツはカスだった)
    (The first big guy was trash)
    Kenpachi:(声だけで敵をブッ飛ばす大猿になって飛びかかってきやがったから)
    (He turned into a giant monkey that blew people away with its voice and came flyin’ at me)
    Kenpachi:(真ッ二つにしてやった)
    (So I split him in two)

    And he got cut in half. Now look at his face at the moment he was cut in half. They were shown in the form of a flashback, and the Roar clearly died without knowing what hit him. So if you add the fact that he charged towards Kenpachi despite being a long ranged fighter, that he didn't use Blut Vene (I've already posted the power of Blut Vene multiple times and so did Kay, I'm not doing it again) or Vollstandig as he died in his gorilla form, and that Kenpachi always aims for the kill if he doesn't find his opponent worth the time, then it becomes obvious that the Roar literally ran to his death without using any of the so powerful Quincy techniques at his disposal.

    And what about the Question? This is far easier because she was clearly shown still talking when Kenpachi got tired and cut her throat. It's clear here, this didn't happen off panel, what was shown in that single panel was literally the entire "fight". And why do I know it was the entire fight? It's a highly likely scenario considering she was explaining her power and talking a lot, and judging by her ability's name, it probably meant that she had to make give a riddle. But what happened? Kenpachi couldn't hear right, so that immunized him from having to deal with her ability and the fact that she didn't even move or keep her eyes on him, or use Blut Vene (again, plenty of evidence about it posted already) just makes it another SR who was meant to die quickly for the sake of showing off Kenpachi.

    And now the Yourself. This is one guy who actually did something, and yet, it was a very stupid decision. The Lloyd brothers were capable of BECOMING whoever they wanted, not just imitating, This meant that Royd could become somebody including the very consciousness, memory, personality and intelligence, while Loyd could become somebody to fit exactly to the body strength, endurance, power or ability, and instead of becoming somebody strong like Bach or Haschwald or maybe another SR, he became Kenpachi, so first of all it meant two exactly equal fighters physically so transforming into his opponent meant a 50/50 chance of winning and second, he sacrificed all of his Quincy abilities and techniques as well as his own strength and skill to become Kenpachi, which in turn severely down powered him. There's no reason to believe Royd was stronger than Loyd, so the only real difference was that Loyd screwed himself while Royd could simply use Blut Vene and beat Kenpachi down to death with ease.

    So your claim that Kenpachi fodderized them really is coming out of nowhere, when at the very least there's conclusive evidence about the first two being killed like idiots while the third can be logically concluded to have made a mistake when choosing who to transform into, especially after knowing his twin brother beat Kenpachi down with such ease.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyagi View Post
    We don't know how strong these SRs were, so it's totally possible that Kenpachi's strength far outweighed theirs.
    We don't know this, but we know that general Quincy abilities like Blutz are ridiculously powerful and a powerup like Vollstandig can make a below captain level Quincy SPLIT A BANKAI IN HALF WITH EASE, so saying that Kenpachi might have been more powerful than them is null because it's obvious they didn't use their abilities for their own advantage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyagi View Post
    If it was Yamamoto/Aizen/Isshin who said they fodderized three SRs, I guess we wouldn't be questioning their strength.
    Don't go around changing the scenario. There three SR were used as fodder to inflate Kenpachi's feats, and were killed ON PANEL in the most idiotic way possible in the case of the first two, while the third committed the most stupid decision. Had Kenpachi actually fought them in a straight fight where they weren't meant to be killed so quickly and where they actually used their powers properly, then it would have been a good way to measure Kenpachi's strength, but since they died like idiots then the claim that "Kenpachi killed 3 SR so he's strong" is null because he might as well have killed three normal Quincy, the kind that arrived later to kill the rest of the Shinigami.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyagi View Post
    Kubo is about to give a power-up to Kenpachi and I guess the next quincy he'll face will be in big trouble.
    If you can consider learning how to fight properly a powerup... And the next Quincy he'll face will probably act stupid or be a short ranged fighter who talks a lot, since his opponents tend to be one of those two, or both.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyagi View Post
    The manga already attributes a certain degree of strength to Kenpachi and his power-up will be even more believable due to his feats.
    His only real feat has been killing Nnoitra, as it was an actually straight fight. Everybody else lost to his plot armor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyagi View Post
    SS fears that Kenpachi will be unstoppable if he gets any stronger,
    Those were Central 46 words and not to be taken seriously, especially when Kenpachi can be easily cut by anyone competent (vice captain level or above, proof already provided before), when he has no long ranged attacks, Kido or skill on the Shinigami arts, no mastery of his Zanpakuto, no properly strategic ability in battle and especially when Shunsui was only talking about swordsmanship/the art of killing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyagi View Post
    even Haschwald acknowledges that Kenpachi is a monster
    Haschwald NEVER said that. He mentioned that he had HEARD Kenpachi was a monster, but upon listening how comically he beat down those Stern Ritter, his expression quickly disappeared in the same manner it commonly does in Bleach when somebody says something stupid, stood in silence for a second before sarcastically answering to Kenpachi. Take a look:

    http://www.mcanime.net/manga_enlinea...m/396006/5#ver

    Stern Ritter Member:・・・そうか
    …Is that so?
    Stern Ritter Member:化物だと聞いてはいたが
    I’d heard you were a monster
    Stern Ritter Member:・・・成程な
    …But now I see

    Someone: ...I see. // I had heard that your strength was monstrous... / ...but still.

    He makes it look and sound as if at first he believed Kenpachi was this form of super death machine only to be revealed that he pretty much spun around and his sword cut three enemies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyagi View Post
    which earns him a place in war potentials.
    War potentials are not just about strength. Remember how Yamamoto wasn't considered a war potential? It was because he was not longer willing to do anything, and it turn made him a less dangerous person. And what about the confirmed war potentials? Kenpachi can turn against the Gotei at any moment only to look for a fight and is willing to cut everybody that gets in his way, even subordinates while Aizen did turn on the Gotei and was also willing to cut everybody down. Ichigo is always willing to go try to reach his goal no matter the risks or who he joins.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyagi View Post
    Once the captains are free to use their bankais, they'll most likely turn the tables on their quincy counterparts, IMHO Kubo is preparing the stage for shinigami's comeback and Kenpachi's onslaught.
    Only if they stop using their most powerful abilities, namely Vollstandig and Sankt Zwinger.
    This might come in handy. Maybe one in more analysis to come:

    The Thousand Year Blood War buildup and recap:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3091160

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  4. #123
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    I believe these quincies were much weaker than Kenpachi, I honestly don't think Kubo would waste three strong characters in such a manner. There's no evidence that they were as strong as Royd, on the contrary they were taken care of pretty quickly by an enemy who was standing right before them. You base your opinion on a premise which is very much debatable, IMHO the simple explanation that Kenpachi defeated three weaklings works perfectly and is more consistent with the events in the manga. I believe the natural conclusion of the manga is that shinigami will defeat the antagonists of the arc, quincies, I'll be surprised if quincies come out on top no matter what abilities they use.

  5. #124
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Mayuri was careless and overcondident at this page and the following one.
    The post I replied to said naive and careless, when in fact he wasn't careless and even felt he had to use Bankai.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Yeah he sure wasn't non-focused, but that didn't stop him from thinking that he's above Uryu and capable of handling him. Knowing the enemies potential power and still being confident in oneself aren't two exclusive traits, of course he could have been both.
    His Bankai was huge and blocking Ishida from attacking Mayuri, and on top of that the poison had already spread around and into Uryuu. The battle had been pretty much won by Mayuri but Nemu decided to be nice to Uryuu and gave him the antidote.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Vollständig seems to be the stable version, and therefore easier to handle
    The completed, perfected form with an absolute domination over spirit particles and no drawbacks (yet), which made the Letzt Stil obsolete and nothing more than a relic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    The fact that it doesn't fuck with the Quincy once used makes it far more usable, doesn't make it stronger overall though, because Letzt Still could potentially be capable of the same, only that Uryu was by far not as good of a Quincy, as his father or Quilge seemed to be, in his that fight.
    The Letzt Stil is capable of performing similarly but to a lower degree. The Letzt Stil relies on the user and upon release it looks like an increase in power while the Vollstandig is so efficient at collecting and enslaving spirit particles that to everybody it feels as if there's nothing, and with every attack from Quilgue his sabre was constantly absorbing more spirit particles. Abandoning the Letzt Stil over Vollstandig is most likely not just about the time limit especially when the two look and perform so differently. The Quincy had 200 years to improve the Letzt Stil, they surely wanted to make Vollstandig better in everything.
    This might come in handy. Maybe one in more analysis to come:

    The Thousand Year Blood War buildup and recap:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3091160

  6. #125
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Won't lie, I haven't read this whole debate so I might not be adding anything to the discussion at all. But just to throw my thoughts in...

    The fact that Akon said there were "at least 16" SR around or exceeding Captain-class suggests there were others whose power level they couldn't be sure of for whatever reason. The implication is that not all SR were quite at Captain-level (though they were likely well above VC-class). Not all Stern Ritter are created equal, just like all Captains aren't equal.

    It's fully possible that Kenpachi just got faced with 3 of the weaker ones. That he took 3 of them out like that is still impressive, but we don't even know if they went all out. In fact, in 'The Question''s case we know the very opposite is true. She didn't even start fighting when Kenpachi tore her throat out. That he caught her off guard still speaks to his agility, but who knows, she might have soundly trounced him had she actually utilised her powers. 'The Roar', he simply overpowered, though we don't know if his ape form was actually his Vollstandig or if he was holding back. In Lloyd's case, Kenpachi says all he had to do was "become stronger" than his imitation. It might have been as simple as taking off his eyepatch; since Lloyd doesn't copy memories, he wouldn't have known that taking off the eyepatch would have released more power, so Kenpachi could easily have caught him off guard.

    We can't be certain how many SR there are, but if there is indeed one for each letter of the Alphabet plus 2 'Yourself's, that makes 27. Quilge was in HM, so 26 SR would have been in Seireitei. That means at least 10 weren't considered Captain-class. Again, this is assuming there are that many to begin with. But even if not, there's no reason to assume they're all of the same level. The Captains aren't, the Espada weren't. In fact, from what little we've actually seen of the Vandenreich, it's fair to assume that what qualifies one as a Stern Ritter isn't raw power level, but the possession of a unique ability worthy of granting a corresponding letter.

    Hell, during the invasion, the varying performances of SR demonstrates the range of power they have. Some beat up Captains without ever stealing their Bankai and escaped completely unscathed, whilst others (well, the guy fighting Hitsugaya at least) stole his Bankai, used it against him and still didn't kill him.

    As for why Royd was so powerful, I still think it's because Bach gave him a boost specifically so he could fulfil the tasks assigned to him. All he actually needed was an increased Blut, which Quilge stated Bach has the ability to adjust in the SR.

  7. #126
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by NoOneInParticular View Post
    In Lloyd's case, Kenpachi says all he had to do was "become stronger" than his imitation. It might have been as simple as taking off his eyepatch; since Lloyd doesn't copy memories, he wouldn't have known that taking off the eyepatch would have released more power, so Kenpachi could easily have caught him off guard.
    Loyd copies the power and abilities. That means, even without copying the memories, he has access to the knowledge of the copied abilities in some sense. That should also hold true for the eye-patch boost, but admittedly, we will never know the truth about that. He might have referred to the eye-patch, or just becoming stronger through his own will.

  8. #127
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    It might be a good idea to remind everyone that power levels are irrelevant in Bleach, unless we're talking about a huge difference (such as the one between Yamamoto and Driscoll).

    I still remember how Hirako was supposed to be stronger than any captain because captain level + Hollow mask = stronger than everyone. Now we know this is not like that. So yeah, captain level sumply means that in a battle between two CL characters, both of them have a chance to win. It's been stablished that Yamamoto was above everyone, that Aizen was a little below that, that Kyoraku is a bit stronger than the average captain and that's pretty much it.

    My point is: outside of those facts I wrote above, everthing is possible. If power levels were "consistent", Grimmjow would have been above every single captain bad Kyoraku and Yamamoto. Not the case.

    So yeah, Kenpachi can be almost as strong as he wants to be, methinks.

  9. #128
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member NoOneInParticular's Avatar
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sky Render View Post
    It might be a good idea to remind everyone that power levels are irrelevant in Bleach, unless we're talking about a huge difference (such as the one between Yamamoto and Driscoll).

    I still remember how Hirako was supposed to be stronger than any captain because captain level + Hollow mask = stronger than everyone. Now we know this is not like that. So yeah, captain level sumply means that in a battle between two CL characters, both of them have a chance to win. It's been stablished that Yamamoto was above everyone, that Aizen was a little below that, that Kyoraku is a bit stronger than the average captain and that's pretty much it.

    My point is: outside of those facts I wrote above, everthing is possible. If power levels were "consistent", Grimmjow would have been above every single captain bad Kyoraku and Yamamoto. Not the case.

    So yeah, Kenpachi can be almost as strong as he wants to be, methinks.
    This is true. Between people of equivalent strength, e.g. Captain vs. Captain or VC vs. VC, it's more about stats and abilities than power. In Grimmjow's little scuffle with Ulquiorra, Grimmjow managed to catch Ulquiorra out despite being 2 ranks below him. So it's not as simple as A>B>C.

    Kenpachi's whole thing is raw power, though. So it probably is as straightforward as him overpowering those 3 SR. Again, in The Question's case it wasn't even a fight. The other 2 he crushed, simple as. But I guess that there is a reasonably wide margin between skills of the SR - some are weaker than others. Eh. We'll never really know why Kenpachi had such an easy time with those 3, having never seen the battles, so who knows, they might just have underestimated him. In fact, that's exactly how he killed Nnoitra; Nnoitra charged straight into his attack because he paid no mind to Kenpachi's speech about Kendo.

    ---------- Post added at 04:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:08 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Loyd copies the power and abilities. That means, even without copying the memories, he has access to the knowledge of the copied abilities in some sense. That should also hold true for the eye-patch boost, but admittedly, we will never know the truth about that. He might have referred to the eye-patch, or just becoming stronger through his own will.
    Well that's another possibility. "I just became stronger than him" wasn't the greatest explanation of what happened... He could have used the eyepatch, or he could have just tried harder or used two hands. It's kind of out of character, actually. You'd think Kenpachi would relish the opportunity to fight himself because it would be a good challenge. But again, Lloyd's dead, so we'll never know if copying one's powers means knowing them off by heart.

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    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Beatrice's Avatar
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kokuryuu View Post
    The only thing we saw about that fight is Royd (looking like Juha) grabbing a half-dead Kenpachi by his throat; that doesn't mean that HE was the one who beated him. Royd was just posing as Juhabach in the moment Yamamoto came, while the real was seeing Aizen under the First Division barracks.
    This sounds plausible enough, there was more than enough time between Kenpachi engaging Bach and Yamamoto arriving.

    And for all we know the switch could have occured when Yamamoto took out Buzzbee, As and Nanana so when the large explosion took place, we are even shown that he looked away from Bach.
    Last edited by Beatrice; January 22, 2013 at 12:18 AM.
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Good post Torran

    I am a big fan of Kenpachi, but I do agree that not only is there no way to state that those 3 SR Kenpachi killed were strong, but also it is likely that they didn't use their best techniques - namely BV and BA (excluding the bankai stealing technique).

    I still can not see any problems with it being Royd who beat him.
    Will have to wait to see what Unohana "teaches" him in these next few chapters to see...
    Infinite RAGE!

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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by zimbardo View Post
    Good post Torran

    I am a big fan of Kenpachi, but I do agree that not only is there no way to state that those 3 SR Kenpachi killed were strong, but also it is likely that they didn't use their best techniques - namely BV and BA (excluding the bankai stealing technique).

    I still can not see any problems with it being Royd who beat him.
    Will have to wait to see what Unohana "teaches" him in these next few chapters to see...
    That's pretty much canon, at least for Gabrielli as Zaraki himself stated he couldn't hear her cause of Jerome being too loud as well as that she spent ages trying to explain her power.

    But yes, I'm sure they were strong.
    Or is it just me seeing a Shinigami head exploding just because of Jerome's roar?
    Spoiler show
    Last edited by Beatrice; January 22, 2013 at 11:26 PM.
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    My thoughts: it was the real Bach that defeated kenpachi. The bach talking to the white haired duded was talking about the SRs like they were low-lives (which is exactly how Back views them). The Bach impostor was crying when he saw his fallen comrades resurrected by yama. They are complete opposites.

    My 2 cents

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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    The reason why I think it was Royd who defeated Kenpachi is because he put up a commendable effort against Yamamoto. Bach had other business to attend to, in a worst case scenario Haschwald would fight and defeat Kenpachi and it would be believable. As for other SRs, to be honest I don't believe their blut vene would give immunity to them against Kenpachi. I'm under the impression that it would only prolong their death until Kenpachi cut them down into pieces. If the blut arterie attack of the gorilla SR didn't hurt Kenpachi, then there's no way he was winning, he would essentially be helpless like Kirge who had to protect himself constantly to avoid dying. I don't think the other two were meant to be strong enough to defeat Kenpachi either, we don't even know if they could use vollständig and even if they could, there might be a catch or it simply wouldn't be enough. Kenpachi would remove his eyepatch and still tear them apart.

    All in all, I see these SRs as the means for the manga to justify Kenpachi's future power-up. My understanding of the manga is that this is what happens when there's a big strength difference between two opponents. You face your opponents, you make short work of them as we have seen countless times. People usually get fodderized before they have the opportunity to demonstrate all their abilities, this is nothing new. There's no reason to think all SRs have similar power, actually we already know that some have stronger reiatsu than others, I see no problem with the interpretation that they were among the weaker ones. If Hitsugaya survived one who stole his bankai and used against him, I guess some of them may have very limited abilities. We'll have a better understanding of their powers when the real battle in Ice Dimension begins.

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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raizen View Post
    My thoughts: it was the real Bach that defeated kenpachi. The bach talking to the white haired duded was talking about the SRs like they were low-lives (which is exactly how Back views them). The Bach impostor was crying when he saw his fallen comrades resurrected by yama. They are complete opposites.

    My 2 cents
    But the Bach impostor also called the 3 SR who got roasted by Yama trying to assist him "stupid fools" for "interfering in his fight".

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Byakuya is a popular character, as well, and he received a humiliating defeat, so, the claim that he won just for the sake of not being humiliated doesn't really make sense.
    What doesn't make sense is why are you trying to compare both when their defeats had vastly different meanings. Byakuya lost his Bankai and his role was to be defeated (or killed) in an intentionally humiliating way, it would actually add to his character and to the story. Kenpachi's role wasn't to develop there or anything, he was just defeated to show a full page panel with him half dead. In Byakuya's case he was there for a well founded reason, while Kenpachi was just a tool, and could have been any other captain but Kubo chose Kenpachi because the sight of him would have a bigger effect among his fanbase compared to other captains with little to no fans (even if everybody else is pretty much superior).

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Analyzing the entirety of the battle from singular panels again?
    It was analyzed based on logic and the fact that the first two "fights" are actually shown on panel as the Roar jumped towards Kenpachi and got cut in half and the Question is clearly seen still talking the moment her throat was sliced open.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    The Loyd battle wasn't even mentioned.
    Loyd became Kenpachi, and I don't mean he looked similar, he was actually Kenpachi with the exact same strength, speed and durability. It's pointless to even talk about it because it was literally Kenpachi fighting himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    And if they are portrayed as idiots, well, it's because they are idiots. Kenpachi isn't a genius, either, so, why does that make it unfair?
    Because the plot demanded them to lose without even giving them a character. Even if they actually intended to do something the magical force behind every event and action impeded them fighting back. And back to the point, Kenpachi killing three idiots is not a testament of strength.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Not to inflate, but just to make him live up to his war potential title. If the one deemed as war potential was off-paneled, then, it would be the idiotic development on Kubo's side.
    If what makes him "live up to his war potential title" is killing three guys with the worst decision making recorded in history then it doesn't talk about Kenpachi's title at all, it just puts him on the same level as a child murderer or the "watching paint dry" champion. Also, "War Potential" is not a title given based on strength alone as I already explained.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    From where you did arrive at this assessment, I wonder. FGT was a transcendental power gained for a temporary duration, while Vollstandig is totally unknown.
    On the fact that Vollstandig pushes its user above the limit and grants them total domination of their surroundings on a god scale? Much like the final technique of a Zanpakuto is a step beyond Bankai and also pushes its user beyond the limit. "Final Getsuga Tenshou" is not a transcendental power by the way, it's just the final technique. Ichigo's ascension to one was due to the harmony of all of his power and becoming one for a while.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    The almighty Vollstandig so far has about zero feats to back up its feat.
    I'm going to assume you overdosed on opium when you wrote this, therefore your mental capacity was temporarily reduced to near zero. No feats? What about Ishida instantly splitting a Bankai in half with ridiculous ease (something not even Aizen can do) with the inferior Letzt Stil? Or how about Quilgue being able to (almost) keep up with Ichigo, who by the way is several times stronger now than he was before the timeskip? Or how about the fact that Vollstandig and its ability to absorb and manipulate reishi is so powerful the user becomes a near god with the ability to absorb and enslave ANYTHING in seconds, and constantly strengthen at an alarming speed by transforming matter into even more energy? It was not a coincidence that Ichigo was used to test the power of Vollstandig, as everybody else would have died (or "lived") in a second.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Two people used it as far as we know. One absorbed a mindless creature
    A creature capable of destroying multiple vice captains with ease, which is actually no small feat. And it was absorbed ALIVE in seconds, and enslaved to his will. He was also about to absorb everybody else before Ichigo jumped in. And I'm going to assume that you had an accident that temporarily blinded you when the chapters came out because otherwise it's impossible to have missed the level of power displayed by Quilgue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    only used it momentarily on Kyouraku. Certainly, it's not enough to qualify as a feat.
    Mustacho was about to be cut in half and suddenly jumped behind Shunsui and shot him through the skull, barely missing his brain. Look at that scar on Shunsui's temple. And this was a shot instantly after using Vollstandig, so it means that there wasn't a chance to absorb reishi and become stronger, unlike Quilgue who used it for a while and sucked that part of Hueco Mundo dry out of reishi.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    That's just your evaluation of the situation. Not a fact by any means.
    Ichigo being several times stronger than before is a fact. The weaker, obsolete version of Vollstandig being able to not only split a Bankai in half with absurd ease, but also kill a captain with the same shot (Mayuri had to transform into gelatin to survive) is also a fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Oh? Know, little flies can tank Captain-Commander's attacks and kill him?
    Little flies? Where is this coming from? (Nowhere, that's where)
    And yes, Driscoll would have eventually killed Yamamoto with Sasakibe's Bankai, Yamamoto was bleeding and burnt from constantly getting hit by lightning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    There is nothing to suggest he didn't use Blut Vene.
    Quilgue can tank massive attacks, As Nodt can tank a sword to the chest (from Byakuya), As Nodt, Royd and Buzzbee can take a direct attack from RYUJIN JAKKA and remain whole, Royd and Haschwald could stand a few meters away from ZANKA NO TACHI (a human sun) without turning to ash, why should Driscoll be the only exception? Rather, it would only be reasonable for him to also be able to take attacks on the same level, especially if his ability was to become stronger for every kill. Also, you are forgetting how he was confident that the fight is over, as both him and Hisagi thought Yamamoto lost consciousness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    He wasn't using a Quincy attack, so, he didn't need to use Blut Arterie to be able to command Sasakibe's Bankai. It's only natural to think his Blut Vene was on.
    No, it's not natural because it was obvious Driscoll didn't think he had to do something as he had the power of Zeus on his hand to use at will.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    The only reason he was reduced to ashes and the other three that attacked the Captain-Commander weren't was the reasoning point. The Captain-Commander avenged his life-time subordinate, who was like a son to him, going all-out. Others were merely thrown out of the way to the boss fight with Bach.
    That explosion that took down three SR looked far stronger than the flames used to incinerate Driscoll. As far as I'm concerned Quincy are human with natural resistance like Hierro so without Blut Vene they should be as fragile.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    You don't have to bring pages for everything you are saying. I'm looking back at them while I'm posting, don't you worry about it.
    The only problem is I'm talking about how confident he was about his Bankai power overwhelming Ishida's sudden boost, not before he went Bankai.
    Mayuri had already won the battle by using Bankai, as the poison had already began to spread, and it was shown just a few pages before that escaping or trying to keep up in battle by himself was pointless. That doesn't make him careless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Actually, he also said Ishida's Heilig Pfeil shouldn't be inferior to that of his. He doesn't say it like "One day, Ishida will surpass me".
    Ishida during Soul Society =/= Ishida now. He had two years to improve just like everybody else and he was always talented to, more so than any other Quincy Mayuri dissected. It isn't up to debate that Ishida hadn't matured his powers when he went to Soul Society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    It's in your first reference that Letzt Stil is said to provide a complete dominance over spiritron.
    The difference lies on how polished Vollstandig was in comparison. Letzt Stil let out a lot of power and looked as if it stopped absorbing reishi after the wing completed, while Vollstandig was so efficient at absorbing reishi that it felt as it there was none in the air, and even during attacks Quilgue's sword is constantly absorbing more and more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    What does wings have got anything to do with this, anyway?
    Ishida's power was materialized in the shape of a wing. Quilgue had two and when he absorbed Ayon a great deal fused with the wings. Every part of Vollstandig seems to play a part, and compared to Letzt Stil it was by far more advanced in that aspect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Neither of the Vollstandig performers showed us the same attack power Ishida showcased against Mayuri.
    Yes it did, it just wasn't as effective because it was used against Ichigo of all people. And Mustacho barely used it for a second when both Letzt Stil and Vollstandig had to be charged for a bit before using, so I doubt he even had time to absorb the reishi in the air.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    As an instance, Grimaniel didn't blow up Kyouraku's head as it should, going by the very same logic.
    Look at Shunsui's wound, he's missing part of his ear. The shot missed the head and scratched the side of his skull, close enough to take the eye with it but not the brain:

    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...9-page-20.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...0-page-17.html

    ---------- Post added at 09:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:34 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Kyoraku, Unohana and Yamamoto are overall on a different tier than Suì-Feng and Komamura.
    No, they aren't. Only Yamamoto and Aizen can claim to be "above captain level" but everybody else is on the same range. And you just like everybody else used Soifon and Komamura as "weaker"or "low tier"captains even though there's absolutely no reason to believe that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Of course a lower tier captain can be better at stuff than an upper tier, only that they are overall not as good of a fighter.
    I'm going to exclude Unohana because she's just fighting for the first time (and she defeated Kenpachi with ridiculous ease), but what has Shunsui ever done that makes him an overall better fighter? He knows how to use a sword, but so does everybody else (except Kenpachi at the moment).

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    "Comparable or greater", but what does greater mean? Does it mean that there is a clear another level, that they are above the overall median fighting capability of a G13 captain, that they in the 500-600/600 range in battle power similar to Kyouraku, Unohana, Aizen or Yamamoto?
    Do you actually believe those databook stats from like 8 years ago? They are not even accurate or live up to the characters they try to portray. But back to the "above captain level" thing, every captain seemed to be having trouble, so it's fair to assume they are at the very least on a level to fight a captain on base or Shikai level equally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    They also have been standing in a pillar of reiatsu, could have used Vollständig while standing in it to charge themself up with reiatsu and so seem to be far stronger than they normally are, unlikely, but possible for the smart ones them.
    They would have absorbed the entire pillar only to lose that power shortly after deactivating Vollstandig, and only normal Shinigami were around when the SR arrived.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Those three and another three? Which exactly? Since only the Mohawk one was shown alive, we should asume that the rest is dead? Oo
    Strawman. It was about defeats and deaths combined.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Without the interference of Haschwald, Ichigo could have been killed by Bach too.
    Without Ichigo exhausting his reiatsu and injured himself inside the Jail, Bach would have been in some deep shit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Those are statements don't really matter, since they didn't happen that way. None of the Stern Ritter killed a captain, we don't know if or how many of those used Vollständig, with half of the SR not shown and most of the fights only shown through a couple of panels.
    Ishida was able to annihilate Mayuri' in less than a minute, Quilgue was able to keep up with Ichigo for the most part and Mustacho was able to overpower Shunsui in half a second. What makes you think a captain would stand a chance against the most overpowered ability in Bleach?

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    As above, we don't know how many of the Quincy used Vollständig in battle. Those that were shown as well as those that weren't could have done so, but it wasn't shown by Kubo to give them a double spread for extra effect when their last battle comes.
    The point of the invasion was that the Gotei 13 would suffer serious losses, not to show any fighting. But even then, Vollstandig is far too powerful to fight directly so no captain would have been able to survive a battle against it, unless the user were as stupid as those three Kenpachi killed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    __________
    Nope.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    What makes you so sure Discroll did have a chance against Yamamoto?
    What makes you think he didn't? Not only was he a Stern Ritter, his power was also to become stronger with every kill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    What makes you sure that his Blut Vene was strong enough to defend against Ryujin Jakka?
    Every other Stern Ritter who has used Blut Vene has been able to survive immense amount of attack power, and that includes standing less than a meter away from Yamamoto whilst using both West and East. Why would Driscoll be an exception? And look at how he thought Yamamoto was unconscious, even less reason to use it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    What makes you think that he could fight like Royd did?
    And what makes you think he couldn't? He was also a SR, and he killed 200 Shinigami in a very short time and was essentially toying with Hisagi. At the very least he should be worthy enough of fighting among Bach's personal army.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    What makes you think that he eventually would beable to use Koko Gonryo Rikyu strong enough to really hurt Genryuusei?
    Yamamoto was burnt and bleeding, so eventually Driscoll should have been able to kill him with the Bankai alone, even more if he got the hang out of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Your opinion only.
    Your opinion that it's my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    They took the foundation stone of the Gotei 13, Genryuusei Yamamoto, mentor of two senior captains, one who is the current captain commander right now; the one capable of bringing the worst criminal to the good side, the one who had absolute authority, the one who could keep those very different individuals under one banner to follow a goal. Taking Yamamoto was as hard of a hit as taking the majority of captains.
    The plot demanded for this. It's no coincidence that Bach hated the Shinigami for whatever happened a millennium back and Yamamoto was involved. Taking the very foundation of the Gotei 13 is pivotal for the story, every other captain was irrelevant at that moment except for maybe Byakuya if he was really meant to die before the fanbase/editors kicked in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Not agreeing with that too? Than please don't even think of arguing any further,
    Don't twist my point like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    They also took the last member of a Noble House and turned him into a bloody pulp and probably turning him into a handicapped person for the rest of the series.
    As already said, Byakuya's defeat was also important. Nobody else could have been defeated, as long as the foundations of the Gotei 13 were destroyed, the main objective of the invasion chapters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    All in all they took out 4 bankai users[Sasakibe, Abarai, Kuchiki, Yamamoto], stole the strongest Bankai available and totally handicaped four other captains of their bankai.
    And what a coincidence, that those four Bankai were from characters that use their Bankai all the time! It was all going according to story demands. Kenpachi was demanded to be beaten, so to make him look a little better the story demanded him to kill a few SR on the way.
    Last edited by Hakuteiken; January 26, 2013 at 10:07 AM. Reason: Unnecessary conduct regarding off-topic issue.
    This might come in handy. Maybe one in more analysis to come:

    The Thousand Year Blood War buildup and recap:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3091160

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