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Translations: Gintama 507 (2)
disclaimer: I prefer to go with this version, since there is no real limit to what a captain is.Originally Posted by cnet128
"Comparable or greater", but what does greater mean? Does it mean that there is a clear another level, that they are above the overall median fighting capability of a G13 captain, that they in the 500-600/600 range in battle power similar to Kyouraku, Unohana, Aizen or Yamamoto? Unclear and as such not really usable in an argument. They also have been standing in a pillar of reiatsu, could have used Vollständig while standing in it to charge themself up with reiatsu and so seem to be far stronger than they normally are, unlikely, but possible for the smart ones them.
Those three and another three? Which exactly? Since only the Mohawk one was shown alive, we should asume that the rest is dead? Oo
Without the interference of Haschwald, Ichigo could have been killed by Bach too. Those are statements don't really matter, since they didn't happen that way. None of the Stern Ritter killed a captain, we don't know if or how many of those used Vollständig, with half of the SR not shown and most of the fights only shown through a couple of panels. Those 3k shinigami are important because they are there to work in the real world, taking out hollows, doing their work. Not bad for the big guns, but luckily those only appear every half millenium of so, enough time to find some new worthy candidates. Remember that only three senior captains from before 400 years are still in the G13, so captains may have be apointed annually, Rose and Love were new ones too in the TBTP arc.
As above, we don't know how many of the Quincy used Vollständig in battle. Those that were shown as well as those that weren't could have done so, but it wasn't shown by Kubo to give them a double spread for extra effect when their last battle comes.
Your opinion only.
They took the foundation stone of the Gotei 13, Genryuusei Yamamoto, mentor of two senior captains, one who is the current captain commander right now; the one capable of bringing the worst criminal to the good side, the one who had absolute authority, the one who could keep those very different individuals under one banner to follow a goal. Taking Yamamoto was as hard of a hit as taking the majority of captains. Not agreeing with that too? Than please don't even think of arguing any further.They also took the last member of a Noble House and turned him into a bloody pulp and probably turning him into a handicapped person for the rest of the series. All in all they took out 4 bankai users[Sasakibe, Abarai, Kuchiki, Yamamoto], stole the strongest Bankai available and totally handicaped four other captains of their bankai.
Last edited by Hakuteiken; January 26, 2013 at 10:08 AM. Reason: Unnecessary conduct regarding off-topic issue.
Yes, there are details and the rest can be concluded by pure logic. Take a close look at it because I don't intend to keep talking about this for any longer.
First is the Roar, not only a Quincy and a Stern Ritter but also an ability that made him a long ranged fighter with the ability to blast opponents into pieces. What did he do? From three different translations it can be concluded that he charged towards Kenpachi:
(The first big guy was trash)
(He turned into a giant monkey that blew people away with its voice and came flyin’ at me)
(So I split him in two)
And he got cut in half. Now look at his face at the moment he was cut in half. They were shown in the form of a flashback, and the Roar clearly died without knowing what hit him. So if you add the fact that he charged towards Kenpachi despite being a long ranged fighter, that he didn't use Blut Vene (I've already posted the power of Blut Vene multiple times and so did Kay, I'm not doing it again) or Vollstandig as he died in his gorilla form, and that Kenpachi always aims for the kill if he doesn't find his opponent worth the time, then it becomes obvious that the Roar literally ran to his death without using any of the so powerful Quincy techniques at his disposal.
And what about the Question? This is far easier because she was clearly shown still talking when Kenpachi got tired and cut her throat. It's clear here, this didn't happen off panel, what was shown in that single panel was literally the entire "fight". And why do I know it was the entire fight? It's a highly likely scenario considering she was explaining her power and talking a lot, and judging by her ability's name, it probably meant that she had to make give a riddle. But what happened? Kenpachi couldn't hear right, so that immunized him from having to deal with her ability and the fact that she didn't even move or keep her eyes on him, or use Blut Vene (again, plenty of evidence about it posted already) just makes it another SR who was meant to die quickly for the sake of showing off Kenpachi.
And now the Yourself. This is one guy who actually did something, and yet, it was a very stupid decision. The Lloyd brothers were capable of BECOMING whoever they wanted, not just imitating, This meant that Royd could become somebody including the very consciousness, memory, personality and intelligence, while Loyd could become somebody to fit exactly to the body strength, endurance, power or ability, and instead of becoming somebody strong like Bach or Haschwald or maybe another SR, he became Kenpachi, so first of all it meant two exactly equal fighters physically so transforming into his opponent meant a 50/50 chance of winning and second, he sacrificed all of his Quincy abilities and techniques as well as his own strength and skill to become Kenpachi, which in turn severely down powered him. There's no reason to believe Royd was stronger than Loyd, so the only real difference was that Loyd screwed himself while Royd could simply use Blut Vene and beat Kenpachi down to death with ease.
So your claim that Kenpachi fodderized them really is coming out of nowhere, when at the very least there's conclusive evidence about the first two being killed like idiots while the third can be logically concluded to have made a mistake when choosing who to transform into, especially after knowing his twin brother beat Kenpachi down with such ease.
but upon listening how comically he beat down those Stern Ritter, his expression quickly disappeared in the same manner it commonly does in Bleach when somebody says something stupid, stood in silence for a second before sarcastically answering to Kenpachi. Take a look:
Stern Ritter Member：・・・そうか
…Is that so?
Stern Ritter Member：化物だと聞いてはいたが
I’d heard you were a monster
Stern Ritter Member：・・・成程な
…But now I see
Someone: ...I see. // I had heard that your strength was monstrous... / ...but still.
He makes it look and sound as if at first he believed Kenpachi was this form of super death machine only to be revealed that he pretty much spun around and his sword cut three enemies.
Remember how Yamamoto wasn't considered a war potential? It was because he was not longer willing to do anything, and it turn made him a less dangerous person. And what about the confirmed war potentials? Kenpachi can turn against the Gotei at any moment only to look for a fight and is willing to cut everybody that gets in his way, even subordinates while Aizen did turn on the Gotei and was also willing to cut everybody down. Ichigo is always willing to go try to reach his goal no matter the risks or who he joins.
I believe these quincies were much weaker than Kenpachi, I honestly don't think Kubo would waste three strong characters in such a manner. There's no evidence that they were as strong as Royd, on the contrary they were taken care of pretty quickly by an enemy who was standing right before them. You base your opinion on a premise which is very much debatable, IMHO the simple explanation that Kenpachi defeated three weaklings works perfectly and is more consistent with the events in the manga. I believe the natural conclusion of the manga is that shinigami will defeat the antagonists of the arc, quincies, I'll be surprised if quincies come out on top no matter what abilities they use.
Won't lie, I haven't read this whole debate so I might not be adding anything to the discussion at all. But just to throw my thoughts in...
The fact that Akon said there were "at least 16" SR around or exceeding Captain-class suggests there were others whose power level they couldn't be sure of for whatever reason. The implication is that not all SR were quite at Captain-level (though they were likely well above VC-class). Not all Stern Ritter are created equal, just like all Captains aren't equal.
It's fully possible that Kenpachi just got faced with 3 of the weaker ones. That he took 3 of them out like that is still impressive, but we don't even know if they went all out. In fact, in 'The Question''s case we know the very opposite is true. She didn't even start fighting when Kenpachi tore her throat out. That he caught her off guard still speaks to his agility, but who knows, she might have soundly trounced him had she actually utilised her powers. 'The Roar', he simply overpowered, though we don't know if his ape form was actually his Vollstandig or if he was holding back. In Lloyd's case, Kenpachi says all he had to do was "become stronger" than his imitation. It might have been as simple as taking off his eyepatch; since Lloyd doesn't copy memories, he wouldn't have known that taking off the eyepatch would have released more power, so Kenpachi could easily have caught him off guard.
We can't be certain how many SR there are, but if there is indeed one for each letter of the Alphabet plus 2 'Yourself's, that makes 27. Quilge was in HM, so 26 SR would have been in Seireitei. That means at least 10 weren't considered Captain-class. Again, this is assuming there are that many to begin with. But even if not, there's no reason to assume they're all of the same level. The Captains aren't, the Espada weren't. In fact, from what little we've actually seen of the Vandenreich, it's fair to assume that what qualifies one as a Stern Ritter isn't raw power level, but the possession of a unique ability worthy of granting a corresponding letter.
Hell, during the invasion, the varying performances of SR demonstrates the range of power they have. Some beat up Captains without ever stealing their Bankai and escaped completely unscathed, whilst others (well, the guy fighting Hitsugaya at least) stole his Bankai, used it against him and still didn't kill him.
As for why Royd was so powerful, I still think it's because Bach gave him a boost specifically so he could fulfil the tasks assigned to him. All he actually needed was an increased Blut, which Quilge stated Bach has the ability to adjust in the SR.
It might be a good idea to remind everyone that power levels are irrelevant in Bleach, unless we're talking about a huge difference (such as the one between Yamamoto and Driscoll).
I still remember how Hirako was supposed to be stronger than any captain because captain level + Hollow mask = stronger than everyone. Now we know this is not like that. So yeah, captain level sumply means that in a battle between two CL characters, both of them have a chance to win. It's been stablished that Yamamoto was above everyone, that Aizen was a little below that, that Kyoraku is a bit stronger than the average captain and that's pretty much it.
My point is: outside of those facts I wrote above, everthing is possible. If power levels were "consistent", Grimmjow would have been above every single captain bad Kyoraku and Yamamoto. Not the case.
So yeah, Kenpachi can be almost as strong as he wants to be, methinks.
Kenpachi's whole thing is raw power, though. So it probably is as straightforward as him overpowering those 3 SR. Again, in The Question's case it wasn't even a fight. The other 2 he crushed, simple as. But I guess that there is a reasonably wide margin between skills of the SR - some are weaker than others. Eh. We'll never really know why Kenpachi had such an easy time with those 3, having never seen the battles, so who knows, they might just have underestimated him. In fact, that's exactly how he killed Nnoitra; Nnoitra charged straight into his attack because he paid no mind to Kenpachi's speech about Kendo.
---------- Post added at 04:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:08 PM ----------
And for all we know the switch could have occured when Yamamoto took out Buzzbee, As and Nanana so when the large explosion took place, we are even shown that he looked away from Bach.
Last edited by Beatrice; January 22, 2013 at 12:18 AM.
Good post Torran
I am a big fan of Kenpachi, but I do agree that not only is there no way to state that those 3 SR Kenpachi killed were strong, but also it is likely that they didn't use their best techniques - namely BV and BA (excluding the bankai stealing technique).
I still can not see any problems with it being Royd who beat him.
Will have to wait to see what Unohana "teaches" him in these next few chapters to see...
But yes, I'm sure they were strong.
Or is it just me seeing a Shinigami head exploding just because of Jerome's roar?
Last edited by Beatrice; January 22, 2013 at 11:26 PM.
My thoughts: it was the real Bach that defeated kenpachi. The bach talking to the white haired duded was talking about the SRs like they were low-lives (which is exactly how Back views them). The Bach impostor was crying when he saw his fallen comrades resurrected by yama. They are complete opposites.
My 2 cents
The reason why I think it was Royd who defeated Kenpachi is because he put up a commendable effort against Yamamoto. Bach had other business to attend to, in a worst case scenario Haschwald would fight and defeat Kenpachi and it would be believable. As for other SRs, to be honest I don't believe their blut vene would give immunity to them against Kenpachi. I'm under the impression that it would only prolong their death until Kenpachi cut them down into pieces. If the blut arterie attack of the gorilla SR didn't hurt Kenpachi, then there's no way he was winning, he would essentially be helpless like Kirge who had to protect himself constantly to avoid dying. I don't think the other two were meant to be strong enough to defeat Kenpachi either, we don't even know if they could use vollständig and even if they could, there might be a catch or it simply wouldn't be enough. Kenpachi would remove his eyepatch and still tear them apart.
All in all, I see these SRs as the means for the manga to justify Kenpachi's future power-up. My understanding of the manga is that this is what happens when there's a big strength difference between two opponents. You face your opponents, you make short work of them as we have seen countless times. People usually get fodderized before they have the opportunity to demonstrate all their abilities, this is nothing new. There's no reason to think all SRs have similar power, actually we already know that some have stronger reiatsu than others, I see no problem with the interpretation that they were among the weaker ones. If Hitsugaya survived one who stole his bankai and used against him, I guess some of them may have very limited abilities. We'll have a better understanding of their powers when the real battle in Ice Dimension begins.
And yes, Driscoll would have eventually killed Yamamoto with Sasakibe's Bankai, Yamamoto was bleeding and burnt from constantly getting hit by lightning.
Ishida hadn't matured his powers when he went to Soul Society.
---------- Post added at 09:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:34 PM ----------
burnt and bleeding, so eventually Driscoll should have been able to kill him with the Bankai alone, even more if he got the hang out of it.
Last edited by Hakuteiken; January 26, 2013 at 10:07 AM. Reason: Unnecessary conduct regarding off-topic issue.