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Thread: How did Kenpachi get beat?

  1. #61
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member River_Capulet's Avatar
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    relax, we'll see Kenny's flashback of that fight when he's training with Unohana. For the moment, he lost because his opponent was stronger and smarter than him. End of story. He could have used the barrier thingy that made Yama used ZNT south... Royd knows all of Bach's technique + battle experience so it's not like he can't one shot a reckless shinigami.

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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Right after those words, Captain-Commander arrived at the scene, so, a possibility of a switch is non-existent at that point. Apparently, it was Royd who thought that way.


    The only solid option is SR being an arrogant bunch of soldiers, who don't know when to stop.
    Remember the guy Ichigo annihilated right after he arrived at SS. He was so full of himself and got one-shot.
    That's true, Yama did show up while "Bach" was holding Kenpachi. After re-reading the chapter, it doesn't look like there was any opportunity for Bach to have switched out with someone without Yama noticing.

    So unless Bach beat Kenpachi, put Kenpachi down, then left, and then Royd decided to pick Kenpachi up again... I guess it must have been Royd who took Kenny out.

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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Since all the SR seemed to be captain tier, all Royd had to do was keep his Blut Vene active and punch Kenpachi unconscious. Not very hard considering Kenpachi usually takes a hit as long as it gives him a chance to hit back. But there are a thousand different ways Kenpachi could have been beaten, but it doesn't matter to list them all considering the Quincy are usually expert sharpshooters that fight with magic.
    This might come in handy. Maybe one in more analysis to come:

    The Thousand Year Blood War buildup and recap:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3091160

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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    Since all the SR seemed to be captain tier, all Royd had to do was keep his Blut Vene active and punch Kenpachi unconscious. Not very hard considering Kenpachi usually takes a hit as long as it gives him a chance to hit back. But there are a thousand different ways Kenpachi could have been beaten, but it doesn't matter to list them all considering the Quincy are usually expert sharpshooters that fight with magic.
    And, he had to have strong enough BV to do that. Kenpachi's slashes are sharp, sharp enough to cut through Nnoitra's hierro, and BV's strength depends on the user. I still believe he had his BV adjusted by Bach (Kirge mentioned it as if it was possible) to hold him.
    Erfworld

    Quote Originally Posted by Bromamura View Post
    Meh can't have Bleach without fan raging, makes it fun.

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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by 0Xellos View Post
    And, he had to have strong enough BV to do that. Kenpachi's slashes are sharp, sharp enough to cut through Nnoitra's hierro, and BV's strength depends on the user. I still believe he had his BV adjusted by Bach (Kirge mentioned it as if it was possible) to hold him.
    If it's adjustable, why won't Juha adjust it to its maximum...? Why bother having weaker BV against captains when you can be MUCH stronger?

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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    If it's adjustable, why won't Juha adjust it to its maximum...? Why bother having weaker BV against captains when you can be MUCH stronger?
    God knows Kubo knows. I, too wonder about that, and about what Kirge's words meant.
    Erfworld

    Quote Originally Posted by Bromamura View Post
    Meh can't have Bleach without fan raging, makes it fun.

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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    If it's adjustable, why won't Juha adjust it to its maximum...? Why bother having weaker BV against captains when you can be MUCH stronger?
    Yeah, good question. Maybe there's some kind of "give and take" system, so to speak. So increasing the strength of Blut comes at the cost of some other aspect of Quincy power. Maybe Bach has to portion out a limited amount of power amongst all his Stern Ritter, so he had to make other SR weaker to make Royd stronger? That would be kind of interesting, actually - every time a SR is killed it would make the others stronger.

    This is all speculation obviously. But Quilge definitely referenced Bach being able to adjust the strength of his soldiers' Blut.

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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by NoOneInParticular View Post
    Yeah, good question. Maybe there's some kind of "give and take" system, so to speak. So increasing the strength of Blut comes at the cost of some other aspect of Quincy power. Maybe Bach has to portion out a limited amount of power amongst all his Stern Ritter, so he had to make other SR weaker to make Royd stronger? That would be kind of interesting, actually - every time a SR is killed it would make the others stronger.

    This is all speculation obviously. But Quilge definitely referenced Bach being able to adjust the strength of his soldiers' Blut.
    Or... BV+BA=const.

    Adjusting stronger BV makes BA significantly weaker.

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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    Or... BV+BA=const.

    Adjusting stronger BV makes BA significantly weaker.
    Could be. But Quilge said the strength of the "blut," so presumably that would mean both kinds of blut, BV and BA. Using blut for defense is BV, whereas using blut for attack is BA, and Quincies alternate what they're using it for.

    So based on that, maybe the trade-off could be something like: Increase in blut strength means a decrease in switching speed?

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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrs View Post
    Could be. But Quilge said the strength of the "blut," so presumably that would mean both kinds of blut, BV and BA. Using blut for defense is BV, whereas using blut for attack is BA, and Quincies alternate what they're using it for.

    So based on that, maybe the trade-off could be something like: Increase in blut strength means a decrease in switching speed?
    That would be strange. Quincies are strong as they are now. Don't see why they would need BA. Maxed BV could take EVERY hit. Immortal and constantly shooting pretty strong arrows, that WOULD damage captains sooner or later. That would be lame. Still don't see why would you need BA everytime you attack.

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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    http://www.mangareader.net/bleach/498/14

    Seems BV enhances defence and agility, whilst BA enhances offensive power.

    Every spiritual being uses reiatsu when they attack. Concentrating the reiatsu flowing through their bodies is what allows them to make sword slashes that can slice buildings in half, and the like. Quincies are effectively human, meaning they should have human limits to their physical strength. Only by focusing reiatsu within their bodies can they hope to achieve similar or greater feats of strength than Shinigami. But that's only for melee attacks. It's probably safer to use a combination of BV and arrows like you said, but maybe BA + close range weapons inflicts greater damage.

    So to take down Kenpachi, Royd would have used BV for defence, which we saw, and presumably gave him a good pummelling with BA.

  14. #72
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    That would be strange. Quincies are strong as they are now. Don't see why they would need BA. Maxed BV could take EVERY hit. Immortal and constantly shooting pretty strong arrows, that WOULD damage captains sooner or later. That would be lame. Still don't see why would you need BA everytime you attack.
    Urahara said Kirge was unable to land a hit on Bankai Ichigo because he was occupied with defending himself with Blut Vene. So, it may need an adjustment if the Bankai returns back to the scene.
    As it stands now, yes, Blut Vene is a lot more useful.

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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Duniak View Post
    That would be strange. Quincies are strong as they are now. Don't see why they would need BA. Maxed BV could take EVERY hit. Immortal and constantly shooting pretty strong arrows, that WOULD damage captains sooner or later. That would be lame. Still don't see why would you need BA everytime you attack.
    Well, I didn't make it up, so don't ask me, hahaha. Ask Urahara, who explained it. Or Kubo, I guess.

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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    "unless my blut vene is at full power, I won't be able to stop his slash speed but with my blut vene at full power, I can't switch over to my blut arterie & attacking without blut arterie is useless against someone is bankai mode!!"

    You give & take away when it comes to Blut.

  17. #75
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 523 Discussion / 524 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Sky Render View Post
    No. Kenpachi was not "labeled useless". He was labeled a "special war potential" for a reason. It was Yhwach himself the one who took him down (NOT Royd; don't even think about that). Yhwach, the one who took down Yamamoto. And that was after he offed three captain-level foes all by himself.

    Unless your logic goes with "Unohana = Yhwach", there is still nothing that proves Kenpachi is inferior to her. For starters, we don't even know how strong she is because she hasn't fought not even once. They could be equals for all we know. The very reason Kyoraku wanted to train Kenpachi is because he's got the potential to be above everyone else. Remember the reaction of Central 46. Kyoraku trains him not because he deems him useless, but because he thinks he's one of the few that can hold a candle against the Vandenreich. You won't be seeing him training Komamura; doesn't mean Ken-chan is weaker than him and therefore needs some training.

    Kenpachi has only lost against one person, and that person is the Big Bad of the series. Think about it.

    This is like going to an One Piece Forum and saying that Shanks sucks because he got a scar from Blackbeard, who was humiliated by Magellan and yadda yadda. I keep mentioning that series because I so wish Bleach fans could be like OP fans (not talking about you precisely, mind you, even though I'm quoting you; you seem like a rational fella). I wish we could stop nitpicking at minor details for once.

    Unohana's wound was made by Kenpachi. Not confirmed, yes, but it's all the same. I'm just saying it so people don't rage whe it inevitably happens. And yes, Kenpachi was able to fight on par with her a long time ago because he was hella strong a long time ago and hasn't grown anything ever since because he, as canon explicitly says, doesn't care about training.

    Think about it.
    No, it was Royd. After the battle ended, Captain-Commander arrived on the scene right away. No time gap for Bach and Royd to swap places. It was Royd that defeated Kenpachi, not Bach himself.
    So, Unohana doesn't have to be on par with Bach in that sense.
    He is being trained because he has immense raw power needed to be honed into some sort of skill. Without skill, he got owned by Royd and things won't change without a training, either.

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