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Thread: How did Kenpachi get beat?

  1. #91
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Kid Chameleone's Avatar
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    dude they are given the same abilities and even if he solely copied his memeries that means the THOUSANDS of years of battle experience of being yamamatios fuckin former rival came into play, not to mention the fact that he did beat kenpachi means that he had to be near or on the same level. if he didnt beat him with power he beat him with bachs experience

    ---------- Post added at 10:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:11 AM ----------

    i dont know why people are fighting over this, we got no complaints when we thought it was bach so i dont know why you think a clone of him cant win a fight, clearly he had to pick someone that OBVIOUSLY had some type of power otherwise picking rroyd wouldve been useless and a waste of time on his part stop looking for something to complain about, it was kenpachis first loss yes it was a shock but just because it wasnt the real bach doesnt mean you have to pick at every little bit, it makes sense... hes his clone! lol he had to pick someone strong or else it wouldnt have been a good rouse now would it?

    ---------- Post added at 10:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:12 AM ----------

    lol its not like hes gonna get the weakest sr to play him lmfao for all we know rroyd was the strongest
    Last edited by Kid Chameleone; January 17, 2013 at 10:15 AM.

  2. #92
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Come on now, do some research before speaking.

    Royd didn't gain any power from Juha. His ability is to copy memories & appearance. He only gained the memories of Juha.

    Loyd is the one that can copy power & appearance.

    So Zaraki got beat by Royd's own skills, not Juha's.
    I still don't understand why Bach didn't send Loyd as a copy to Captain-Commander. What was the point of having his memory intact within a clone, anyway? It wasn't as if Captain-Commander put Bach's memory into a test or anything.
    Though, Loyd couldn't even defeat Kenpachi by his copy-power technique, so, he could well be inferior to his brother when it comes to using his skills.

  3. #93
    ~ Forum Fixer ~ 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Miyagi's Avatar
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    I believe the manga gave an explicit message by making Royd fight well against people who gave the fodder treatment to other SRs. The other SRs -who lost- lost handily in fair fights, they weren't tricked or handicapped in any manner, they'd actually given fodder treatment to other shinigami, even VCs. You can't win easily if you're not strong enough, IMHO the victories were a testament to the strength of Kenpachi and Yamamoto. I realize there may be many interpretations to a situation, in this case I decide to go with the most obvious one.

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  5. #94
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Schabrak's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 523 Discussion / 524 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    The strongest Espada? You mean that big brute who was so big he couldn't even see Kenpachi? And how Kenpachi never actually had to deal with any of his attacks save a punch and a Cero for which he had plenty of time to avoid? This is just as pointless to determine his power..
    If something speaks against your theory, it's worth a naught? I wonder how you know what happened in an off-paneled fight.

    Quote Quote:
    To be precise, he's the most pointless captain. He's the only one who can't even fight properly and also lacks basic skills that even low level Shinigami have to some degree.
    He's there for the brawn and has shown to be capable of using it, how exactly is he pointless? He fullfills the role of a Kenpachi. That's such a weak execuse to hate him. So he doesn't know kendo, why? Because CC and the C46 deemed him to strong and dangerous to learn the art of swordfighting. If it his fault, partly, is he worthless without it? Hell no, it's embarrassing to hear you say so, since you know each and every fight in the manga. Was he useless against Tousen, Nnoitra, Yami? No he was not.

    Quote Quote:
    I have read the manga over 30 times, individual battles over 70 times and understand it to a point you can't even compare to me. I can pinpoint anything you mention about it, find the exact panel and page I'm looking for and write a 5 page long post about a specific point in a whim with over 800 hours worth of posts across 15 or more websites over the past 6 years. Please don't tell me to read the manga, because it's highly insulting to me.
    Gratz, but since the other users don't post such a list, it's pointless to name such figures. Yeah I know you've got the knowledge, that doesn't turn the interpretations and arguments of others automatically wrong, if you think otherwise. It rather makes you look presumptuous, we can agree on that, can we?

    Quote Quote:
    And this is also insulting because I love Kenpachi but there's a clear difference between realistically knowing his strength and overrating him ad nauseum.
    Don't want to comment on what other think, but I see a clear potential to use his reiatsu far more useful, probably as you see it too. Though, you've got to admit that he is probably in the top 3 of G13's strongest raw attack power. Kubo admit that he had similar thoughts to the novel, nevertheless not as over the top as there, but still in the same direction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    I have read the manga over 30 times, individual battles over 70 times and understand it to a point you can't even compare to me. I can pinpoint anything you mention about it, find the exact panel and page I'm looking for and write a 5 page long post about a specific point in a whim with over 800 hours worth of posts across 15 or more websites over the past 6 years. Please don't tell me to read the manga, because it's highly insulting to me.
    What else is he supposed to write after this paragraph?

    You are seemingly the ultimate encyclopedia of bleach, one who can't be at fault. Is he suppoesd to argue again, if you say so? Do you think you are the only one here who put lot's of time into the discussion and manga itself? I would rather question your need to read it thirty times.
    Twitter - Firm but Fair

  6. #95
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyagi View Post
    I believe the manga gave an explicit message by making Royd fight well against people who gave the fodder treatment to other SRs.
    There was no message. Royd was actually relevant and he followed orders nicely, and incidentally he gave us some interesting details about the real Bach.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyagi View Post
    The other SRs -who lost- lost handily in fair fights,
    Lost handily in fair fights?

    There were 10 Stern Ritter who fell in battle; Driscoll who didn't use Blut Vene and instead used a weakened Bankai, Domino who was careless and faced Ichigo, Quilgue who was taken off guard thrice, As Nodt, Buzzbee and NaNaNa who didn't even use their ARROWS and chose to attack Yamamoto head on with their fists, Royd who was ordered to not do anything and just keep facing an enraged full genocide Bankai mode Yamamoto without stealing it and those three Kenpachi killed. Out of those three only Loyd actually fought, but made the incredibly stupid decision of becoming Kenpachi, in turn sacrificing all of his Quincy abilities to fight as some guy who likes to swing long sharpened metal. The other two literally ran to their deaths, as the Roar jumped towards Kenpachi and got cut in half and the Question stood there talking until Kenpachi got tired and sliced her throat. There was nothing "fair" in any of those fights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyagi View Post
    they weren't tricked or handicapped in any manner
    Yes they were. Only Royd used all of the Quincy abilities at his disposal except the medallion, which could have turned the fight to his favor, but was ordered not to use it. The rest and their actions range from using their abilities once and never again using them to never actually doing anything but talk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyagi View Post
    You can't win easily if you're not strong enough, IMHO the victories were a testament to the strength of Kenpachi and Yamamoto. I realize there may be many interpretations to a situation, in this case I decide to go with the most obvious one.
    I could kill Yamamoto with my bare hands whilst handcuffed and blindfolded if he just kept talking instead of trying to kill me. Those SR salve Royd got themselves killed in the most idiotic manner possible. Or most, since Buzzbee survived and apparently As Nodt did too. There's no testament of their strength or anything of that sort because they were idiots who didn't value their lives or their orders to kill everybody <== Even Royd (who was actually Bach in personality and mind by definition) commented on their naivety.
    This might come in handy. Maybe one in more analysis to come:

    The Thousand Year Blood War buildup and recap:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3091160

  7. #96
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    They may act like a genius or an idiot, it doesn't really matter, I suppose.
    That's who they are, in the end. There's no evidence that they were inferior to Royd by any means, either, neither for the ones Kenpachi killed nor for the others that died.
    Villains do talk before killing. Say, it is plot armor or anything else, that barely changes this fact.

    That aside, we can't say they didn't value the orders at any case. They got killed because of their arrogance, but it has got next to nothing with their obedience. All of them who were shown in action were killing off anyone without showing mercy, with the exception of Haschwald, who seemed to have a completely different personality.

  8. #97
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Schabrak's Avatar
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    There was nothing "fair" in any of those fights.

    The rest and their actions range from using their abilities once and never again using them to never actually doing anything but talk.
    They've gone 1vs1 with the SR having information of Kenpachi, what's unfair about that? They chose the wrong fella, someone who they were at a disadvantage with their powers, could have happened to other characters too. Similar to OP, some match-ups are bad for certain characters. Would As Nodt have gone against Kenpachi, he might have lost just as fast as the other SR.

    I doubt Kenpachi's brief explanation explained in detail how the SR fought and to which degree they used Blut.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    On top of that, the guy always uses some sort of teasing in his words and talks about how his opponents are trash all the time.
    It certainly worked with Arnold teasing Feringo in Pumping Iron.
    Last edited by Schabrak; January 18, 2013 at 01:37 PM. Reason: grammar
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  9. #98
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    They've gone 1vs1 with the SR having information of Kenpachi, what's unfair about that? They chose the wrong fella, someone who they were at a disadvantage with their powers, could have happened to other too. Similar to OP, some match up are bad for certain characters.

    I doubt Kenpachi's brief explanation explained in detail how the SR fought and to which degree they used Blut.
    On top of that, the guy always uses some sort of teasing in his words and talks about how his opponents are trash all the time. I doubt we can just take his words literally and base everything on that.
    Like he says it was just ordinary business to deal with Loyd, who copied his powers, though in reality, it couldn't possibly be that easy as an opponent to eliminate.

  10. #99
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Bleach 523 Discussion / 524 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    If something speaks against your theory, it's worth a naught?
    There's a difference between factual information and a theory.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    I wonder how you know what happened in an off-paneled fight.
    Enough happened on panel to prove what I'm saying. Don't you remember how Yammi was just a big stupid ape who only knew how to attack until everything was dead? He kept punching at Kenpachi without actually being able to see what he was doing, getting cut in turn.
    Can you see how he couldn't see Kenpachi and accidentally moved him closer to his face? Well, that was the entire fight in a nutshell. His attacks were immensely strong but slow and ineffective. The only real time Kenpachi had to deal with a direct attack was from a punch, and all because he was annoyed at Ichigo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    He's there for the brawn and has shown to be capable of using it, how exactly is he pointless? He fullfills the role of a Kenpachi.
    And what's the point of having muscle if he can't use them positively? If something happens that is not about strength like when he was caught in Tousen's Bankai all he could do was to get himself stabbed. He was lucky that during the Fullbring arc he didn't have to face Giriko's time contract or any Espada with a special ability, otherwise he would be dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    That's such a weak execuse to hate him.
    Strawman. The point is that he's worthless in an actual fight where his opponents are more than just brutes with close range attacks. He couldn't even kill Royd even with his eyepatch off, because Blut Vene is far too strong to be cut directly and Kenpachi acts too dumb to realize that the only way to kill a Quincy effectively is by waiting for an opening. And he doesn't have any long range attacks either so he's screwed against most Quincy too. He's by far the least suited to fight the Quincy among the captains.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    So he doesn't know kendo, why?
    Because he doesn't want to. Even if he did know Kendo, the point of his eyepatch, hair bells and using only one hand is to enjoy more the fight. Killing a strong opponent right away is the least of his priorities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Because CC and the C46 deemed him to strong and dangerous to learn the art of swordfighting. If it his fault, partly, is he worthless without it?
    Because he can and he has turned against the Gotei 13 before. If he actually became more capable it would be problem to deal with him while in his current state he can be killed by anybody.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Hell no, it's embarrassing to hear you say so, since you know each and every fight in the manga. Was he useless against Tousen, Nnoitra, Yami? No he was not.
    Nnoitra? Brute who could only fight head on. Yammi? Brute who could only fight head on. Tousen? Kenpachi was completely useless in that fight. His ONE AND ONLY OPTION was to get hit only to have a better chance of hitting Tousen, and that is by far one of the most abysmal strategies in battle and the equivalent of rigging your own base with explosives if the enemy gets too close. Any other captain could have used any other means to at least defend themselves, if not counter attack. Kenpachi only won because of his plot armor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Gratz, but since the other users don't post such a list, it's pointless to name such figures. Yeah I know you've got the knowledge, that doesn't turn the interpretations and arguments of others automatically wrong, if you think otherwise. It rather makes you look presumptuous, we can agree on that, can we?
    Strawman. It was a reply towards the post that told me to read the manga again. I know how it works, what happens and where everything is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Don't want to comment on what other think, but I see a clear potential to use his reiatsu far more useful, probably as you see it too.
    If he actually fought with the intention to kill, started using his brain, mastered proper sword skill and did everything within his power to win the battle with the least injuries he would actually be useful; He doesn't even need to learn Kido, or his Zanpakuto's name, or Bankai, just fight properly. Look at everybody else, especially skilled swordmen like Unohana (Kendo master, revealed to fight with her sealed sword since her Shikai is a manta ray), Byakuya, Ukitake, Shunsui, Ichigo, they can all fight with their own swords without necessarily using their Zanpakutou abilities because they are very skilled and competent. Kenpachi could be up there with them if only he could abandon that berserk style that only gets himself near death during battle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Though, you've got to admit that he is probably in the top 3 of G13's strongest raw attack power.
    Define "raw power". He's never shown to be above anybody else in anything except maybe in the reiatsu category (not even confirmed), and even then Yamamoto, Aizen, Ichigo and Byakuya are stronger in that regard, Kenpachi is the only one who shows off his reiatsu when every other captain normally keep theirs under control, mostly because they have training while Kenpachi became a Shinigami all of a sudden.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Kubo admit that he had similar thoughts to the novel, nevertheless not as over the top as there, but still in the same direction.
    What he said was that the author noticed how Kenpachi tends to lower his combat level to match his opponents, and now everything thinks that his reiatsu is that high when the eyepatch is there to also limit his view just like how he puts tiny bells on his hair to make his opponent aware of his location or how he uses only one hand to lower to power of his attacks or holds back during a fight. A single line was blow out of proportion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    What else is he supposed to write after this paragraph?

    You are seemingly the ultimate encyclopedia of bleach, one who can't be at fault. Is he suppoesd to argue again, if you say so? Do you think you are the only one here who put lot's of time into the discussion and manga itself? I would rather question your need to read it thirty times.
    Maybe you should take a look at the part of the post that paragraph was aimed at.
    ---------- Post added at 12:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:38 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    They've gone 1vs1 with the SR having information of Kenpachi, what's unfair about that?
    And of what use is that information if they didn't actually DO ANYTHING WORTHWHILE with their powers? Blut Vene is powerful, yet none of them didn't use it, otherwise they would have been able to tank his attacks with their necks. Or what about their powers? Loyd did use his, but it only weakened him as Kenpachi has far less offensive abilities than the average Quincy and the Roar and the Question? The Roar charged towards Kenpachi and got cut in half, and the Question didn't even more from her spot, and she's seen still talking when her throat was cut open. What about Vollstandig? Or that holy fortress of death that kills anything but the caster within? Why didn't they use their Quincy arrows? Or Blut Vene? Or swords? Anything whatsoever. Ir was unfair because they were fodder meant to be killed with ease to show Kenpachi, so his plot armor demanded them to be idiots who didn't put any effort into facing him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    They chose the wrong fella, someone who they were at a disadvantage with their powers, could have happened to other characters too.
    They could have killed him with ease if only they had used Blut Vene. Look at how easily Royd beat an eyepatchless Kenpachi to a pulp, just because he could stop his attacks with his arm. Those three he killed could have done the same but didn't due to their stupidity. Objectively speaking any given Stern Ritter could have killed Kenpachi with little effort by simply using their abilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Similar to OP, some match-ups are bad for certain characters.
    In One Piece the characters actually fight. Those three Kenpachi killed didn't actually do anything with the abilities at their disposal except for Loyd, who stupidly copied Kenpachi, which meant sacrificing all of his Quincy abilities for a 50/50 chance of winning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Would As Nodt have gone against Kenpachi, he might have lost just as fast as the other SR.
    No, he would have annihilated Kenpachi as As Nodt was one of the few Stern Ritter who actually remembered they had Blut Vene, as seen from his fight with Byakuya and that brief moment after getting blasted by Yamamoto.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    I doubt Kenpachi's brief explanation explained in detail how the SR fought and to which degree they used Blut.
    There's plenty of evidence showing how powerful Blut is and Kay already posted most of it, and one of those pages include Kenpachi getting blocked with ease. And that "brief explanation is literally the entire "fight" of the first too. If you look at all translations the agreement is that the Roar charged towards Kenpachi when he saw him and got cut in half, and that the Question kept talking forever and the panel clearly shows her talking at the same time her throat was cut open. The only exception was Loyd, but that was pointless as it was just Kenpachi fighting against a perfect clone. "He had to become stronger than his imitation" could easily mean he stopped holding back.
    This might come in handy. Maybe one in more analysis to come:

    The Thousand Year Blood War buildup and recap:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3091160

  11. #100
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Schabrak's Avatar
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    There's a difference between factual information and a theory.
    There is a difference between having more reiatsu and being stronger and actually being capable of use it to his advantage. Yami fucked up meeting someone who uses a typhoon of flying blades and someone who seems to be able to hack through everything with a good enough tenique.

    Quote Quote:
    His attacks were immensely strong but slow and ineffective.
    That's the entire point and you gladly admit to it being so. Strongest Espada, medicore fighter.

    Quote Quote:
    And what's the point of having muscle if he can't use them positively? If something happens that is not about strength like when he was caught in Tousen's Bankai all he could do was to get himself stabbed. He was lucky that during the Fullbring arc he didn't have to face Giriko's time contract or any Espada with a special ability, otherwise he would be dead.
    Until now and seemingly in the past thousand years, that worked pretty well for the Kenpachi's. So it was useful until someone came up, being older than him, having more skills than him and the techniques to beat him. Even without doing all that, he was already on a similar level to Byakuya[not in kidou/kenjutsu/etc], but overall he could fight enemies of the same degree. So every single other captain would have been capable of beating Tousen in such a situation? Thanks for mentioning other illusionary/sense blinding technique users, they use their techniques to an advantage, which are clearly more effective against close range sword fighters. Hirako and Aizen fuck with their mind, being capable of using kenjutsu counters those effects how? Clearly people like Kyoraku, Ukitake, Mayuri, Unohana, well the entirety of all captains had no chance against Aizen, but someone like Zaraki should be capable of going against an illusionary user.

    The brawn is there to fight the brawn, what's so hard to understand about it? It was the same with Unohana, just that she in addition was capable of honing her sword skills to a high degree. She obviously had other objectives in her career than Zaraki.

    Quote Quote:
    The point is that he's worthless in an actual fight where his opponents are more than just brutes with close range attacks. ... He's by far the least suited to fight the Quincy among the captains.
    If it was Royd or Bach is still not clear, let's differenciate these as you like to do so yourself. Is he too dumb or does he simply wants something than you? He doesn't want an easy fight, he wants to fight his way, it's clearly his weakness, but to say that he's worthless is ridiculous until we actually see him fighting against such a person. Don't come up with Tousen again, many characters would have been at a disadvantage there. Least suited took the most SR, you can't fight against facts, no matter how these wins were achieved. More like nearly none of the shinitami are suited to fight the Vandenreich, that's what the manga has clearly shown in the last couple of months. Not those vaizards, not the seniors nor the upcoming stars, none, but Zaraki, Yamamoto and Unohana. I will exclude Ichigo, because he's the main character and special for a reason.

    Quote Quote:
    Because he doesn't want to. Even if he did know Kendo, the point of his eyepatch, hair bells and using only one hand is to enjoy more the fight. Killing a strong opponent right away is the least of his priorities.
    Doesn't want to and wouldn't have been allowed to, that's a known fact, so what? It's his style of fighting, other characters have theirs. Aside from this being not the most effective way of fighting, is there another vital flaw?

    Quote Quote:
    Because he can and he has turned against the Gotei 13 before. If he actually became more capable it would be problem to deal with him while in his current state he can be killed by anybody.
    The reasoning of the C46 came before the short betrayal or was there an indication that Genryuusei only tried to train him in the last two years, not in the hundred years before?
    Anybody..., yeah thanks for the hyperbole. They knew fully well that he was a brutal criminal before and it was also the way to go to become captain, by killing the previous one. They clrealy knew that he was a wild person before, just as Unohana is.

    Quote Quote:
    Nnoitra? Brute who could only fight head on. Yammi? Brute who could only fight head on. Tousen? Kenpachi was completely useless in that fight. His ONE AND ONLY OPTION was to get hit only to have a better chance of hitting Tousen, and that is by far one of the most abysmal strategies in battle and the equivalent of rigging your own base with explosives if the enemy gets too close. Any other captain could have used any other means to at least defend themselves, if not counter attack. Kenpachi only won because of his plot armor.
    Kenpachi won because he used his usual strategy, by using a suprise attack and use his body as a meat shield. If that's his preferred way of fighting, than it got to be that. He can't use some fancy shikai ability like the rest of them and it would be weird to see him doing so, a non-shattered version of his zanpakatou would be nice though. Would Ichigo have a way against Tousen in that fight, even with kendo etc? As mentioned above already, one could use Tousen's bankai for many different characters, but it's important to keep repeating that fight, right?

    Quote Quote:
    It was a reply towards the post that told me to read the manga again. I know how it works, what happens and where everything is.
    It's not, you spit on every of his comments. Let's just take one example:
    Quote Originally Posted by Sky Render
    Kyoraku trains him not because he deems him useless, but because he thinks he's one of the few that can hold a candle against the Vandenreich.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torran
    This is a completely baseless claim. His entire talk with the Central 46 included reinforcing the 1st Division and mentioning Byakuya and Ichigo leaving for an undefined time right before mentioning Kenpachi.
    You call it a baseless claim, but never bring up why it really is so, you bring up stuff that got nothing to do with his priciple point of Kenpachi being "one of the few", who are deemed to be potentially capable of "hold[ing] a candle against the Vandenreich. No even worse, everything shown in this chapter indicates to this being a fully acknowledged fact by Shunsui, by even risking Unohana's life just to get him strong.

    Spare me the time to bring up other quotes, this is they way you've gone up against him, of course he would consider it pointless to reply any further. Why do you love him? Because he is the way it is[asumption, as you see everything else negatively{"started using his brain, mastered proper sword skill"}], but at the same time that's the very same points you critique him as well. Seems paradox to me.

    Quote Quote:
    He doesn't even need to learn Kido, or his Zanpakuto's name, or Bankai, just fight properly. ... Kenpachi could be up there with them if only he could abandon that berserk style that only gets himself near death during battle.

    Look at everybody else, especially skilled swordmen like Unohana, Byakuya, Ukitake, Shunsui, Ichigo, they can all fight with their own swords without necessarily using their Zanpakutou abilities because they are very skilled and competent.
    How is properly fighting without the usage of any of these skills gonna help him? It would take away a important factor of his fighting strategy. He will keep slashing till Blut Vene is gone, and if it's gone, he will strike. I don't see him waiting for an opening being a viable option for Zaraki, what's stopping the Quincy from activating it again. He has nobody to distract him, like in the Quilge fight.

    Next fight will be Unohana's first one, we will see how he matches up against her swordskill. Byakuya is capable of using some good mid to low high tier Kido, and has proficient with the other basic shinigami skills. Didn't help him at all against his last enemy, and he had to use trickery similar to win the fight against Tsukishima. We've yet to see Ukitake fight without his shikai, not that he isn't strong by himself, but I've got to go with what we have actually seen him do. Shunsui, the same, he was worse off against an enemy, who despite long range weapons, had gone to close range to fight him. Ichigo lost to Hashwald with a single sword strike, Kenpachi got to fight Bach or a good clone of his, look who's come further. The only person capable of taking Kenpachi down was Genryuusei and only with all his bankai attacks.

    Quote Quote:
    Define "raw power". He's never shown to be above anybody else in anything except maybe in the reiatsu category (not even confirmed), and even then Yamamoto, Aizen, Ichigo and Byakuya are stronger in that regard, Kenpachi is the only one who shows off his reiatsu when every other captain normally keep theirs under control, mostly because they have training while Kenpachi became a Shinigami all of a sudden.
    Raw as in th english word raw, him attacking with a swordswing.

    Yamamoto is clearly number one, I don't see Aizen having a captain rank anymore nor is Ichigo part of the Gotei 13. I've yet to see Byakuya showing similar strength with a barehanded attack. Unohana is likely there too. Kenpachi is using his reiatsu to his advantage, is that bad now, using his advantages?

    Quote Quote:
    What he said was that the author noticed how Kenpachi tends to lower his combat level to match his opponents, and now everything thinks that his reiatsu is that high when the eyepatch is there to also limit his view just like how he puts tiny bells on his hair to make his opponent aware of his location or how he uses only one hand to lower to power of his attacks or holds back during a fight. A single line was blow out of proportion.
    Maybe, maybe not, since your can't confirm neither. but the actual manga clearly speaks about bein capable of much more powerful, I tend to stuck my thoughts. I obviously don't think he will every go as far as in the novel.

    Quote Quote:
    And of what use is that information if they didn't actually DO ANYTHING WORTHWHILE with their powers? Blut Vene is powerful, yet none of them didn't use it, otherwise they would have been able to tank his attacks with their necks. What about Vollstandig? Or that holy fortress of death that kills anything but the caster within? Why didn't they use their Quincy arrows? Or Blut Vene? Or swords? Anything whatsoever. Ir was unfair because they were fodder meant to be killed with ease to show Kenpachi, so his plot armor demanded them to be idiots who didn't put any effort into facing him.
    You may as well call every single fight of his "plot armor" as that's what Kubo likes him to be matched up with, the most logical cases for a fighter like him.
    Why doesn't every Quincy go around and tank everything with their necks? Since everybody seemingly could do so if smart enough, the war should have been more than a cakewalk for them. If all their attacks are so good, why did nobody but Genryuusei die, nobody but Byakuya and Renji were life-endangering injured? It implies that they either held back for no apparent reason or that nearly nobody is capable of doing all that you imagine them to do.

    Quote Quote:
    They could have killed him with ease if only they had used Blut Vene. Look at how easily Royd beat an eyepatchless Kenpachi to a pulp, just because he could stop his attacks with his arm. Those three he killed could have done the same but didn't due to their stupidity. Objectively speaking any given Stern Ritter could have killed Kenpachi with little effort by simply using their abilities.
    Stupid of them, good for Kenpachi. If three consecutive Quincy are so dumb, what are the chances that the next one wouldn't be so? The chance to meet those three was 0,000297619048. That's three zero's behind the comma. That rather speaks against the whole of SR.

    Quote Quote:
    In One Piece the characters actually fight. Those three Kenpachi killed didn't actually do anything with the abilities at their disposal except for Loyd, who stupidly copied Kenpachi, which meant sacrificing all of his Quincy abilities for a 50/50 chance of winning.
    The Gorilla used his transformation power, the question asked his stupid questions, Loyd used his powers, everyone of them used their given powers and every single one was beaten. Seems like Kenpachi was smart enough to use their weaknesses against themself.

    Quote Quote:
    No, he would have annihilated Kenpachi as As Nodt was one of the few Stern Ritter who actually remembered they had Blut Vene, as seen from his fight with Byakuya and that brief moment after getting blasted by Yamamoto.
    Are you going to reduce every possible encounter of his to Blut Vene? Do you know if he would have gone through it or not? No you don't, not everyone is Royd. It seems like As Nodt and the rest were unconscious for some time, enough time to strike them. If the force is strong enough, it can win against Blue Vene, hinted on by Byakuya's shikai hurting him at the beginning of the fight.

    Quote Quote:
    There's plenty of evidence .... could easily mean he stopped holding back.
    Commented on this somewhere above.

    edit: In hindsight I may have become a bit too obsessed with the argument, didn't intend to be rude, if I was.
    Last edited by Schabrak; January 18, 2013 at 04:58 PM.
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    There is a difference between having more reiatsu and being stronger and actually being capable of use it to his advantage. Yami fucked up meeting someone who uses a typhoon of flying blades and someone who seems to be able to hack through everything with a good enough tenique.
    The main reason why he lost during his first form was because he was too big and dumb to fight Kenpachi. The only one who took advantage was Kenpachi because Yammi was too big for his own good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    That's the entire point and you gladly admit to it being so. Strongest Espada, medicore fighter.
    And yet people use it as a testimony of Kenpachi's strength even though Yammi was by far the easiest Espada to deal with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Until now and seemingly in the past thousand years, that worked pretty well for the Kenpachi's.
    It worked pretty well if you mean killing a thousand nobodies from the worst parts of Rukongai. The only time he ever had to face somebody who was not strength-based he was completely useless and forced to dodge or tank attacks as the only resort when for everybody else it would have been a last resort. And it wasn't even a fair fight because his plot armor made Tousen stop using Shunpo and other skills.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    So it was useful until someone came up, being older than him, having more skills than him and the techniques to beat him.
    Ichigo who knew nothing about Shinigami arts, lacked skill and had just barely beaten Renji completely overpowered Kenpachi in every way. Later Aizen even said that he had made Ichigo fight Kenpachi as an intermediate between Renji and Byakuya because he was at that level. And you make it sound as if Kenpachi has skills or technique when he has none. His entire fighting style revolves around swinging his sword at the opponent's direction and purposefully avoids using any sort of discipline in battle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Even without doing all that, he was already on a similar level to Byakuya[not in kidou/kenjutsu/etc], but overall he could fight enemies of the same degree.
    Not even similar. Byakuya and Ichigo fought for a while without using their Shikai abilities and at this point Ichigo had fully mastered sword fighting, and something like Senbonsakura would be dangerous for Kenpachi.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    So every single other captain would have been capable of beating Tousen in such a situation?
    No, but every other captain would have means to defend themselves, Kenpachi had none.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Clearly people like Kyoraku, Ukitake, Mayuri, Unohana, well the entirety of all captains had no chance against Aizen, but someone like Zaraki should be capable of going against an illusionary user.
    He wouldn't because he would go for the illusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    The brawn is there to fight the brawn, what's so hard to understand about it? It was the same with Unohana, just that she in addition was capable of honing her sword skills to a high degree. She obviously had other objectives in her career than Zaraki.
    And what happens when he has to face an actually competent opponent? He would have died against Tousen if it wasn't for his plot armor and he lost against Royd with ease. So far he had it easy with opponents who chose to stay close to him without using their power properly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    If it was Royd or Bach is still not clear, let's differenciate these as you like to do so yourself.
    There's no reason to believe it was the real Bach when:
    1- Bach's purpose there was to try and recruit Aizen.
    2- Royd proved to be a very competent fighter who used his Quincy abilities to their full potential.
    3- Widespread Quincy techniques like Blut Vene are too powerful for anybody but the strongest of the strong to cut through.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    He doesn't want an easy fight, he wants to fight his way, it's clearly his weakness, but to say that he's worthless is ridiculous until we actually see him fighting against such a person. Don't come up with Tousen again, many characters would have been at a disadvantage there.
    Guess what, I'm going to bring Tousen up against because this was a fight where Kenpachi had to face somebody who didn't just fight head on. All Kenpachi could do was take the hits and do his best to dodge, while every other captain could have done better to survive. Kenpachi was the definition of useless here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Least suited took the most SR, you can't fight against facts, no matter how these wins were achieved.
    Don't go blatantly ignoring the details because only the result suits you. The FACT is that two of those Stern Ritter did nothing to fight and got killed in the most idiotic way possible, and Loyd made the stupid decision of becoming an imitation which at best meant a 50/50 chance of victory.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    More like nearly none of the shinitami are suited to fight the Vandenreich, that's what the manga has clearly shown in the last couple of months. Not those vaizards, not the seniors nor the upcoming stars
    Everybody held their own against the Stern Ritter with only minor wounds. If they didn't win was because they were limited to their Shikai.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    none, but Zaraki, Yamamoto and Unohana.
    I want to see your reasoning for this. Please. Why is Kenpachi the only one who can fight a Stern Ritter when he's not even capable of fighting properly? Even without their Bankai, Shunsui and Byakuya are very powerful, skilled captains who can fight with their released swords. What makes Kenpachi special? Nothing, he's just believed by the fandom to be as strong as a Bankai even though he's just the middle ground between a captain and a vice captain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Doesn't want to and wouldn't have been allowed to, that's a known fact, so what?
    He had plenty of time to learn how to fight with a sword, or at least learn a style, and yet he doesn't. There's no form or patters to it, he just moves the sword in a direction he wants.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    It's his style of fighting, other characters have theirs. Aside from this being not the most effective way of fighting, [U]is there another vital flaw?[/U
    Yes there are plenty. He often plays risky and doesn't block or evade attacks just to get a chance to cut back. His style is just to go berserk and he always ends up with many wounds during a serious fight because he didn't care about getting cut and just kept swinging around like mad. That's just a terrible way to fight and should be avoided with anybody with a shred of common sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    The reasoning of the C46 came before the short betrayal or was there an indication that Genryuusei only tried to train him in the last two years, not in the hundred years before?
    Anybody..., yeah thanks for the hyperbole. They knew fully well that he was a brutal criminal before and it was also the way to go to become captain, by killing the previous one. They clrealy knew that he was a wild person before, just as Unohana is.
    Because Kenpachi had no ties, loyalty or responsibility towards the Gotei 13. Every other captain there except Unohana and Yamamoto (who created the Gotei and were now always trying to ensure its well being) had gone through the academy and had been accepted as a captain after a test in front of multiple captains, who also deemed them worthy of becoming one. But what about Kenpachi? He was a thug who one day decided to become a captain and didn't have to go through the approval of the captains since he used the method that involved taking a spot by force. It was obvious that aiding somebody like him to grow would be dangerous, especially when he openly demands to fight with fellow captains all the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Kenpachi won because he used his usual strategy, by using a suprise attack and use his body as a meat shield.
    And do you know how abysmal that kind of strategy is in battle? Downright suicide for the chance of getting an enemy should be the last of the strategies and only used as a desperate last resort. A GOOD strategy would mean stopping the enemy before it even got close, yet Kenpachi's only option was to get stabbed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    If that's his preferred way of fighting, than it got to be that. He can't use some fancy shikai ability like the rest of them and it would be weird to see him doing so, a non-shattered version of his zanpakatou would be nice though.
    How you ever considered how flawed his strategy was? Tousen could have stabbed him anywhere, but for plot armor reasons he went for the stomach. Kenpachi made a big gamble with that style of his.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Would Ichigo have a way against Tousen in that fight, even with kendo etc? As mentioned above already, one could use Tousen's bankai for many different characters, but it's important to keep repeating that fight, right?
    Ichigo could have shot Getsuga Tenshous in every direction or use his Bankai speed to escape. Komamura could have used either his Shikai or Bankai and the sheer size would fill the entire Bankai area, Byakuya could have surrounded himself with his petals just like he did against Tsukishima or used Bankai everywhere. You get the picture, they have a mean to attack and defend without getting cut while Kenpachi doesn't. And a big mistake Tousen did apart from trying to teach Kenpachi fear was to use his Bankai in plain view, when as seen from TBtP he took down Kensei by using his Bankai from behind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    You call it a baseless claim, but never bring up why it really is so, you bring up stuff that got nothing to do with his priciple point of Kenpachi being "one of the few", who are deemed to be potentially capable of "hold[ing] a candle against the Vandenreich. No even worse, everything shown in this chapter indicates to this being a fully acknowledged fact by Shunsui, by even risking Unohana's life just to get him strong.
    I explained why, don't ignore that part. It's a baseless claim because Shunsui never once said that he wanted to train Kenpachi because he was one of the few who could take on the Stern Ritter, NOT ONCE. You can't back that claim either because Shunsui's words were about strengthening the Gotei 13. Don't take the full conversation out of context. He didn't just talk about Kenpachi, he talked about promoting Okikiba and appointing two vice captains to strengthen the 1st Division, and THEN he mentioned that Kenpachi had to be trained because Byakuya and the others had left to the Soul Palace. You see now? He wasn't just talking about Kenpachi as if he was something special, he was taking the entire Gotei into consideration and felt that training Kenpachi was necessary because "as he is right now he's no good, that's why he must be trained in swordsmanship/the art of killing" and because two strong fighters- Byakuya and Ichigo were not available at the moment so Shunsui wanted to gather all the strength possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Spare me the time to bring up other quotes, this is they way you've gone up against him, of course he would consider it pointless to reply any further. Why do you love him? Because he is the way it is[asumption, as you see everything else negatively{"started using his brain, mastered proper sword skill"}], but at the same time that's the very same points you critique him as well. Seems paradox to me.
    This may come as a surprise to you, but I'm discussing Kenpachi from a powerlevel perspective, not from a character perspective. One thing is liking his style as a character and the other is to overrate that style as something unparalleled when the story says otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    How is properly fighting without the usage of any of these skills gonna help him? It would take away a important factor of his fighting strategy. He will keep slashing till Blut Vene is gone, and if it's gone, he will strike. I don't see him waiting for an opening being a viable option for Zaraki, what's stopping the Quincy from activating it again. He has nobody to distract him, like in the Quilge fight.
    It would help by playing smart like Gin, Shinji, Shunsui or Byakuya and know when to attack or when to hold back. Kenpachi just rushes towards his targets without a second thought, and that would often be avoided by all except for the strongest (and Yamamoto should have taken down the SR one by one rather than trying to stop the leader anyway, as losing Kenpachi is better than lose multiple captains and several thousand Shinigami). Sword fighting plays a big part in Bleach, it's not just about spamming abilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Next fight will be Unohana's first one, we will see how he matches up against her swordskill.
    He won't. But he can get close enough to cut her if he ignores getting cut only to have a better shot. It's a battle between the undisputed master of the sword against the undisputed master of zero fucks given.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Byakuya is capable of using some good mid to low high tier Kido, and has proficient with the other basic shinigami skills.
    Byakuya has used a level 89 bakudo before, and uses level 60 spells all the time without incantation. He's also a master of every Shinigami art to some degree, has natural talent and is maybe THE best balanced fighter except for Aizen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Didn't help him at all against his last enemy, and he had to use trickery similar to win the fight against Tsukishima. We've yet to see Ukitake fight without his shikai, not that he isn't strong by himself, but I've got to go with what we have actually seen him do. Shunsui, the same, he was worse off against an enemy, who despite long range weapons, had gone to close range to fight him. Ichigo lost to Hashwald with a single sword strike, Kenpachi got to fight Bach or a good clone of his, look who's come further. The only person capable of taking Kenpachi down was Genryuusei and only with all his bankai attacks.
    ...What? Unless you meant to say Royd... Kenpachi was taken down BY A ROOKIE. And every other captain is well capable of taking him down too, don't believe that just because he is strong he's stronger than anybody. He was the first captain to ever fight and also the first captain to be taken down, right before Ichigo even learned how to handle a sword properly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Raw as in th english word raw, him attacking with a swordswing.

    Yamamoto is clearly number one, I don't see Aizen having a captain rank anymore nor is Ichigo part of the Gotei 13. I've yet to see Byakuya showing similar strength with a barehanded attack. Unohana is likely there too. Kenpachi is using his reiatsu to his advantage, is that bad now, using his advantages?
    Byakuya is a noble with one of the most powerful reiatsu among the captains and hinted to be even stronger than Kenpachi, and also main antagonist during the SS arc up until Aizen's reveal.
    Soifon and Yoruichi are capable of pummeling their enemies to the ground and are ridiculously strong for their size.
    Komamura is the captain that has shown strength closest to Yamamoto or Aizen, taking on strong opponents with physical strength alone, and his reiatsu is apparently strong too.
    Any given Vaizado including the vice captains are capable of crushing a captain level with ease or overpower even the first Espada. Though this might be cheating.

    So far the most impressive thing Kenpachi has done in terms of raw power was to cut a building in half and to throw a rock, which isn't very impressive once you consider every other captain level tends to do that during their fights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Maybe, maybe not, since your can't confirm neither. but the actual manga clearly speaks about bein capable of much more powerful, I tend to stuck my thoughts. I obviously don't think he will every go as far as in the novel.
    In the manga Kenpachi tends to appear to be very strong but only because his fights are more visual for the sake of spectacle. His fight with Ichigo was the first time anybody had seen captain level reiatsu, and also when he removed his eyepatch his reiatsu looked like a skull and Ichigo's reiatsu looked like a Hollow and Yachiru's reiatsu looked like a tiger and all that, but in reality nothing really changes about him when he removes his eyepatch, there's no swirling energy beams or anything, his reiatsu just becomes more sharp since it's no longer being wasted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    You may as well call every single fight of his "plot armor" as that's what Kubo likes him to be matched up with, the most logical cases for a fighter like him.
    Why doesn't every Quincy go around and tank everything with their necks? Since everybody seemingly could do so if smart enough, the war should have been more than a cakewalk for them. If all their attacks are so good, why did nobody but Genryuusei die, nobody but Byakuya and Renji were life-endangering injured? It implies that they either held back for no apparent reason or that nearly nobody is capable of doing all that you imagine them to do.
    There were only two fights shown on panel unless you want to count Driscoll's as a fight. As Nodt didn't bother to block Byakuya and took a sword to the chest without a single cut and Royd took RYUJIN JAKKA to the arm with a relatively minor wound. And when the other Stern Ritter when they were shown every once in a while didn't have a single cut on them. Read the entire invasion if you don't believe me. Nobody but Urahara and Ichigo are aware of Blutz so the rest had to fight blindly against them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Stupid of them, good for Kenpachi. If three consecutive Quincy are so dumb, what are the chances that the next one wouldn't be so? The chance to meet those three was 0,000297619048. That's three zero's behind the comma. That rather speaks against the whole of SR.
    You have to look at the scenario. Those three SR Kenpachi killed were fodder and meant to die quickly to inflate Kenpachi's feats. Royd wasn't fodder at that point, so he actually played smart. It's not as much as everybody is that dumb but that those three were only created to get cut without ever getting a personality and are irrelevant to the story. If the time comes when Kenpachi has to face a SR not meant to be fodder then it's going to be drastically harder to kill him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    The Gorilla used his transformation power, the question asked his stupid questions, Loyd used his powers, everyone of them used their given powers and every single one was beaten. Seems like Kenpachi was smart enough to use their weaknesses against themself.
    It's less about Kenpachi being smart and more about those SR being dumb. They could have used both their letter ability AND Blut Vene, but they didn't. Or Vollstandig. I'm surprised only Mustacho used it for a second when it's such an improvement over the Letzt Stil.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Are you going to reduce every possible encounter of his to Blut Vene? Do you know if he would have gone through it or not? No you don't, not everyone is Royd. It seems like As Nodt and the rest were unconscious for some time, enough time to strike them. If the force is strong enough, it can win against Blue Vene, hinted on by Byakuya's shikai hurting him at the beginning of the fight.
    Blut Vene can be used at different levels. That masked SR made it sound like As Nodt wasn't putting effort into his.
    This might come in handy. Maybe one in more analysis to come:

    The Thousand Year Blood War buildup and recap:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3091160

  13. #102
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Torran View Post
    There was nothing "fair" in any of those fights.
    Well, there wasn't a physical impossibility that stopped these SRs from doing what you assume they can do, i.e. fight and defeat Kenpachi as easily as Royd. In that context, your definition of "unfairness" refers to your accusation against the mangaka over giving fodder treatment to the SRs who in turn could give fodder treatment to Kenpachi. I analyze events based on how the mangaka decides to portray them, you analyze events based on how the mangaka, in your opinion, should portray them. I believe this is where we disagree but in any case, this line of thought rather belongs in a "Does Kubo treat his characters fairly" thread, I don't see how it is relevant as a counterargument against my stated reasons.

  14. #103
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Chameleone View Post
    dude they are given the same abilities and even if he solely copied his memeries that means the THOUSANDS of years of battle experience of being yamamatios fuckin former rival came into play, not to mention the fact that he did beat kenpachi means that he had to be near or on the same level. if he didnt beat him with power he beat him with bachs experience

    ---------- Post added at 10:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:11 AM ----------

    i dont know why people are fighting over this, we got no complaints when we thought it was bach so i dont know why you think a clone of him cant win a fight, clearly he had to pick someone that OBVIOUSLY had some type of power otherwise picking rroyd wouldve been useless and a waste of time on his part stop looking for something to complain about, it was kenpachis first loss yes it was a shock but just because it wasnt the real bach doesnt mean you have to pick at every little bit, it makes sense... hes his clone! lol he had to pick someone strong or else it wouldnt have been a good rouse now would it?

    ---------- Post added at 10:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:12 AM ----------

    lol its not like hes gonna get the weakest sr to play him lmfao for all we know rroyd was the strongest
    NO THEY WERE NOT!!Re-read the manga & stop talking what you don't know.

    ---------- Post added at 08:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:40 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    I still don't understand why Bach didn't send Loyd as a copy to Captain-Commander. What was the point of having his memory intact within a clone, anyway? It wasn't as if Captain-Commander put Bach's memory into a test or anything.
    Though, Loyd couldn't even defeat Kenpachi by his copy-power technique, so, he could well be inferior to his brother when it comes to using his skills.
    If you read any part of my previous post as well as the manga, you wouldn't be asking this question. The answer to the question was presented long before the question.

    ---------- Post added at 08:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:43 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyagi View Post
    I believe the manga gave an explicit message by making Royd fight well against people who gave the fodder treatment to other SRs. The other SRs -who lost- lost handily in fair fights, they weren't tricked or handicapped in any manner, they'd actually given fodder treatment to other shinigami, even VCs. You can't win easily if you're not strong enough, IMHO the victories were a testament to the strength of Kenpachi and Yamamoto. I realize there may be many interpretations to a situation, in this case I decide to go with the most obvious one.
    Difference is, I've taken the time to analysis the situations & now I'm explaining that situation so that you may understand it yourself. Those sternritters were arrogant, ignorant, clueless, naive, stupid & as a result of these characteristics, they lost their battle in a stupid fashion. This isn't my assumption, this is a manga given fact.

    In a battle where non of that characteristics takes over, against the sternritters, Zaraki will be dead, EVERYTIME. He has no way of defeating a serious minded sternritter who actually uses his or her abilities intelligently & that is fact many (apparently) many ain't able to perceive (or just silence their mind to that point).

  15. #104
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    Difference is, I've taken the time to analysis the situations & now I'm explaining that situation so that you may understand it yourself. Those sternritters were arrogant, ignorant, clueless, naive, stupid & as a result of these characteristics, they lost their battle in a stupid fashion. This isn't my assumption, this is a manga given fact.

    In a battle where non of that characteristics takes over, against the sternritters, Zaraki will be dead, EVERYTIME. He has no way of defeating a serious minded sternritter who actually uses his or her abilities intelligently & that is fact many (apparently) many ain't able to perceive (or just silence their mind to that point).
    I don't think those SR were arrogant, ignorant, clueless, naive and stupid. I think nearly all of the SR aside from Haschwald and the one who fought Kyouraku were sharing those characteristics. As Nodt, Buzzbee, NaNaNa were stupid enough to attack Captain-Commander head on, for example. Same goes for Driscoll. Same goes for Shaz Domino. Some others weren't shown or shown in detail, to be specific.

    Why should we be interested in them not showing those characteristics? It's a manga fact that they were arrogant and boasting about their powers. It's a manga fact that they weren't great tacticians that were able to use their powers efficiently. If we were to run simulations to utilize their potentials in a battle situation, it could be as you called it, but if they are under-utilizing their strength, it's all their fault.

  16. #105
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    I don't think those SR were arrogant, ignorant, clueless, naive and stupid. I think nearly all of the SR aside from Haschwald and the one who fought Kyouraku were sharing those characteristics. As Nodt, Buzzbee, NaNaNa were stupid enough to attack Captain-Commander head on, for example. Same goes for Driscoll. Same goes for Shaz Domino. Some others weren't shown or shown in detail, to be specific.

    Why should we be interested in them not showing those characteristics? It's a manga fact that they were arrogant and boasting about their powers. It's a manga fact that they weren't great tacticians that were able to use their powers efficiently. If we were to run simulations to utilize their potentials in a battle situation, it could be as you called it, but if they are under-utilizing their strength, it's all their fault.
    Yes, I knew that & I've said it (hence all the manga pages I've posted consist of pretty much all the sternritters).

    They are master quincy above captain class fighters & they are no doubt capable of using their powers effectively but those characteristics made them disregard all form of urgency & security http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...6-page-20.html
    & as a result of that many of them got killed in the most stupidest way possible.

    .Barragan was far superior to Soifon. He would have one-shotted her (unreleased) but his arrogants knew no bounds
    .Aizen almost got killed by Gin (even though Aizen is far superior) because Aizen disgarded urgency & security
    .Kirge got critically wounded by trash even though he could handle Ichigo GT to the neck & his bankai slash power
    .Tousen almost got killed by Zaraki even though he's displayed he can use his powers far more effectively

    The sternritters were not permitted to destroy SS because the plot demanded them not to (so an excuse was needed to shows us why they didn't destroy SS & that excuse was that they were naive, stupid, inactive, moronic, clueless, arrogant, ignorant, foolish & etc otherwise SS would be in much much worse stated than it is right now).

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