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Thread: How did Kenpachi get beat?

  1. #151
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    What are you talking about? What insult? I don't see any insult, but whatever.
    You should go back and reread your own post then.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    The Quincies could have reacted to Zaraki before he cut them.
    One of them was airborne and the other reeked of overconfidence. It has nothing to do with strength.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    If you guys are talking about who I think you are, then two Sternritters did attack Zaraki and were defeated.
    If you had read my previous post you would know that the Roar jumped at Kenpachi and got cut and the Yourself actually fought for a while. The difference between those two is that the Yourself was actually defeated while the Roar was stupid enough to jump at Kenpachi despite having a long ranged ability on top of his Quincy abilities and arrows.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Basically, they weren't strong enough to beat him, even when one imitated his power.
    They weren't strong enough? And where are you getting this from? The first two didn't even engage in a fight with Kenpachi, and the third was Kenpachi in every way physically. This all goes back to your circular logical that uses the first claim to justify the second and the second to justify your third.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    No, I am not. That's the rule of nature. You're weak if you get killed by enemy, regardless of how strong you are. Ichigo can be stronger than Chad by miles, but if Chad manages to kill him because Ichigo gets too arrogant, then it shows Ichigo was weak all along.
    This logic is bullshit. You are correlating different factors to make them look weak and Kenpachi strong. In reality it all amounts to Kenpachi killing three guys regardless of his strength because for one reason or another they didn't fight at their full potential, characters who were meant to be disposed off.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Once again, if it's this, then they didn't die because of stupid decisions.
    Yes they did. Read my previous posts. I'm not going two write the same thing for the tenth time in this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Either way, they would not have been able to beat Zaraki because they can either defend or attack with Blut, not both. If they defend against Zaraki's attacks, then they'd probably survive, but they would not be able to wound him.
    They don't NEED Blutz to attack. And where are you getting that they can't wound him, exactly? From what you wrote in this and your previous post, I assume you are one of those people that believe Kenpachi is actually hard to cut, when in reality all it takes is to put reiatsu behind an attack, and pretty much everyone he's fought seriously before has been able to cut him with ease. And I'll ask you again, why would these Quincy, who were EXPERTS at controlling reiatsu and part of BACH'S ELITE ARMY be unable to wound Kenpachi?

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    If they did increase their attack power instead, then they'd have to make sure Zaraki gets incapacitated otherwise it's game over for them.
    Despite not actually needing to use Blut Arteria to hurt him, they don't even have to incapacitate Kenpachi to beat him. There are so many ways they could have won with ease. Stand in the air out of his reach and use their Quincy arrows? Use one of a thousand Quincy spells the type Ishida used which are capable of blowing somebody from the inside out? Use their abilities in a better way? How about the Roar keeping his distance and using his ability? Or how about the Question looking for a better opportunity to make a riddle, instead of standing a meter away from Kenpachi? Or how about Loyd remaining as himself and beating Kenpachi by using Blut Vene (like his IDENTICAL TWIN BROTHER) to stop Kenpachi's every attack without effort? Actually, this applies to all these three SR. Every display of Blut Vene so far has been able to withstand even the fiercest of attacks, including Kenpachi's. And so on, combine some of these, team up on him. distract him, use Vollstandig, Sankt Zwinger since Kenpachi would recklessly jump in and die instantly or be forced to stay outside the range. So many things they could have done.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    It does say enough about Kenpachi's strength in relation to the Quincies' strength if they managed to be killed so quickly. If the Quincies were strong enough, they could to some degree fight back.
    Strong characters get attacked this way all the time, including Yamamoto. The difference is that these characters always have some sort of plot armor that makes them survive or get hit somewhere non lethal while those three SR were doomed to die like fodder and Kenpachi aimed for the neck and head. Stop bringing the "strength" part into this, it's just an oversimplification of a not so simple situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Okay professor.
    And just like that, you evade the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    According to Kenpachi, he didn't have an easy time killing the imitation, just the other two.
    That's not even the point. By imitating Kenpachi, Royd essentially made the odds 50/50, which is a stupid decision, because he had more chances as himself or he could have also imitated somebody stronger, Bach or Haschwald even, and annihilate half of the Gotei 13 by himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    He never commented on the ape or imitator's intelligence, just that the ape was too weak.
    He said that he was trash, and jump at him and got cut in half. Nothing more nothing less, just shows the Roar with a surprised expression, consistent to the dialogue.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    It's not like your deduction's any less flawed.
    Go back a few pages for a more complete explanation and then tell me why. You don't even have to respond point by point, just write a clear sentence or two explaining how it is flawed. This does not exclude you from your circular logic, however.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Once again, if you're talking about the ape, imitator, and the girl that Zaraki tore the throat of, it's shown that the ape did not have any skill or ability, and the imitator couldn't match Zaraki when he increased his power. Dunno about the girl. I haven't seen them fight, just where Zaraki mentions having fought them to Bach.
    Those two were clearly shown and explained, the third one was just Kenpachi fighting himself, and "becoming stronger" could simply mean removing his eyepatch as Loyd imitated Kenpachi all the way to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    A Bleach reader is calling Dragon Ball bad? That's funny. If you were callin Dragon Ball Z bad, I could agree to an extent, but Dragon Ball is superior.
    Try reading or watching it now with a critical mind and "unimpressive" doesn't even begin to describe it.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    However, we're off topic. And as I said, I'm not a Bleach fanboy that I'd remember every little thing or would bother rereading it over 5 times.
    Ad hominem, and it doesn't even address the fact that you keep using external sources as if they were valid.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    And your entire argument is based on your conception that the three who were killed were only killed because they were dicking around when Zaraki says he fought two of them. And how is the winner NOT stronger? Ichigo was stronger than Aizen when he won. Aizen was stronger than Gin when he killed him, despite the fact that Gin would have killed him if it weren't for Hogyoku.
    First of all, I already explained this with more detail, and second, the winner is NOT stronger, as there are so many ways somebody could win. How about Yumichika defeating Hisagi despite being inferior in every way? He won by using an incredibly broken ability. How about Barragan? His power didn't even have to do with strength, and was beaten with his own power by Hachigen thanks to time/space spells, not strength related either. How about Starrk who was caught offguard the moment all of his wolves and guns vanished, and essentially beaten because of it? Or how about Tousen? He became so powerful that his feats compared to Aizen strength wise, and was killed by his own vice captain with no effort from a back stab. The logic that the winner is stronger is as flawed as it can get, and downright ignoring details or circumstances.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    The Blut? Even if they used it, it'd have been a waste without proper strategy because if they increase their power, they'd be cut by Zaraki easily.
    They don't even need to use strategy to beat him, look at Royd, he jumped in and blocked Kenpachi's sword with his arm, and if Blut Vene is hard enough to block Kenpachi without a single scratch, then all he had to do was to punch Kenpachi unconscious, with no fear of ever getting injured in doing so.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    If they increased their defense, then they wouldn't be able to deal any kind of damage to Zaraki. It was lose-lose either way.
    The assumption that the SR wouldn't even be able to cut Kenpachi despite the fact that he gets hurt all the time against competent opponents, and according the R&D analysis, this guys were competent, and expert reiatsu manipulators on top of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    He was stronger, which is something you apparently agree with.
    Don't take words out of context and then put them in my mouth.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Didn't the imitator use his skill by imitating Zaraki? Or the ape guy by transforming into an ape?
    Yes, and why did Loyd sacrifice all of his Quincy abilities and techniques to become somebody with no abilities or techniques? Why didn't he transform into someone stronger?
    Why did the Roar jump at Kenpachi despite being a long range fighter?

    ---------- Post added at 01:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:21 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Torran says they didn't use anything at all, the other side says they could have.
    Haven't you read the evidence? Haven't you read the explanation? I have already explained and detailed my reasons, and provided plenty of sources and pages to back them up, and so did Kay. What are you doing? Citing from memory? Ignoring the evidence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    In the end Zaraki won all of these fights by using his skills, some of which he consciously didn't use to increase his "fun/purpose" of fighting. You might disagree with this, but that's what the mangaka has delivered. To reduce it all to idiocy of his enemies or pure luck is still ineffable.
    He won by using a mixture of his skills and by his enemies doing stupid decisions. And look at what I said: "defeated and survived fights" survived, why, because he always suffers a lot of damage, but mostly in non lethal parts of his body, or gets saved by somebody by luck.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Where do I mention any of those not being captains? Captain level can mean nearly above VC to CC, so please spare me this bullshit, it's getting tiresome.
    And where did I ever mention that? Stop changing what I said, because it's insulting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Those three named are clearly more capable of fighting a strong oponent than those named secondly. All of them are within the 400-600/600 range of battle data. Those in the early 400/600 are definitely not as capable as those around 500/600, while those around 600/600 are the epitome of shinigami. Yeah some of the information is outdated[Yamamoto was a clear 100/100, making him the #1 shinigami] and the power scales are conceivably growing as the manga has reached a point the mangaka hasn't thought of in the past, but I'm obviously just presenting it to present the point. I won't mention the Vaizards, as they were mostly trivialized in the FKT arc, there to show off their bankai and some of their skills.
    You use the databooks, which are often mistaken, and information that is in no way based on the manga or their actual capabilities. How about you use the manga instead, as the only true source? It would be far more believable to base your claim on actual evidence. So far Aizen and Yamamoto have proven to be above what can be considered "captain level", but not Shunsui. As far as strength, intelligence, speed and skill goes, he's not any different than anyone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Aside from a couple mistakes because Kubo didn't reveal everything or had retconned stuff to work for the "then" plot, yes most of them look quiet accurate.
    A scale of one to ten for everybody despite there being so many fighting styles and different ceilings on certain skills or abilities depending on the character? Or skills attributed to somebody despite not living up to it or shown to be above? Again, use actual evidence and not just a databook that is vague and inaccurate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Are you dull, where did I state that they are above captain lvl or something like that? Stop putting things into my mouth
    You said it here:

    Quote Quote:
    Kyoraku, Unohana and Yamamoto are overall on a different tier than Suì-Feng and Komamura.
    Different tier, above captain level, you are essentially saying that they are a level above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Stop putting things into my mouth MH's official Bleach smart ass #1. I'm sick of that attitude, as are most others that come to argue with you.
    Back to you. Stop using fallacies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    He and Ukitake were ready to clash with Yamamoto and likely had a chance to hinder him for some time
    And do what exactly? They are good strategists, and Yamamoto knowing that would both have to be wary of Shunsui's games and Ukitake's ability to return his fire attacks. But does that actually make them a "different tier" that others? No. Yamamoto has been beaten by less. All it takes is some good coordination and a trap, just like both Shunsui and Ukitake are famour for, but that doesn't make then any special to be considered a different tier, nor does their display of strength or speed or Kido, despite the data book giving them a near 100 in everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    low tier captains like Komamura would very likely have not.
    And where are you getting "low tier" again? The data book? He's not any inferior to others INCLUDING Shunsui and Unohana as far as speed and agility are concerned, he's more than likely stronger than them by a large margin as far as physical strength is concerned. But I'll give you that, he wouldn't be able to fight Yamamoto ALONE and HEAD ON because his specialty is not fit to fight somebody like Yamamoto.

    By the way, in that page Yamamoto was comparing them to their older selves and reminiscing of his admiration towards them. "Unbeatable" and all that is not meant to be taken seriously, especially when they get their ass kicked all the time. They were the best of their time and grew up to become good captains.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    It's only you assumption that they would lose all that power once deactivated, maybe they are able to use the stored up energy once used again. Shunsui's opponent didn't seem to care for "absorption time" when he had gone into Vollständig to suprise him.
    My assumption? Not even close. Quilgue had lost Vollstandig and he still had energy left, but it was going to disappear. And it makes sense. Vollstandig pushes a Quincy beyond the limits. If Vollstandig is deactivated, the Quincy returns to its limit so all that excess energy has to go. It might have been possible to retain some of it like Quilgue for a short time, but not forever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    So would Yamamoto have ran around SS, turning every SR unconscious or at least knocking them away, while another fights starts, where those that have been knocked around have no reason or place to be, that would have turned your casuality counter to 16+? Oo Call it strawman, seem like you turn reality the way you want to win an argument.
    It's funny, because you are using a strawman here. The topic was different there, and I was talking about loses, plain and simple, to prove a different point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    And no again. Doesn't look like we are talking about defeats here at all.
    If you go around quoting me then quoting somebody else then of course the point is going to change too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Here is the fundamental difference between you and mean. I state and opinion as such, you do so by stating it as a fact. Have fun.
    If i claim something and back it up with evidence, then it becomes a little more valid than something that's said without any foundation or recalled from memory. So for example, if Ichigo had to exhaust his reiatsu to near zero to awaken his Quincy powers to the point he also began hurting himself enough to be told about his injuries by multiple people across a few chapters, and then I claim that Bach would have more difficulty fighting Ichigo at his max, and then provide the evidence for my reasoning, and it fits:

    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...7-page-10.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...28-page-9.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...27-page-8.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...8-page-20.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...29-page-8.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...29-page-9.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...9-page-13.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...1-page-21.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...3-page-17.html

    You see the difference? If I build my claim based on solid empirical evidence, then it becomes a bit more factual than an opinion. It's this simple. If I say something is because I have a reason to believe it, and will back it up if challenged.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Not every shinigami captain is Mayuri. [Battle data: Top Right: Defense (70), Bottom Right: Mobility (40)] :O
    I'm not going to follow any data book information, only manga evidence. By the way, Ichigo also had trouble keeping up with Vollstandig before using Bankai.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    So if Quilge was capable of holding back Ichigo, but Shaz was killed in one hit, but Ichigo would have caused some "deep shit" to Bach, if he was as full of stamina as in the first mentioned fight, where does that put Haschwald, who has shown Ichigo that is by far not ready to fight them?
    We know nothing about Haschwald apart that he's "strong", but it might even be his ability to become stronger if Bach endangered. Not much to go by.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Where does that put all of the SR, all incredibly skilled, yet one half being incredibely stupid and uncapable of fighting a someone whom they can't steal their bankai from?
    Wherever they are needed. As Nodt was smart enough to fight Byakuya by using Blutz and his ability to his favor, as well as using the stolen Bankai. Mustacho was smart enough to try and shoot Shunsui at point blank, use Vollstandig if necessary and use any possible distraction to his advantage. This guys were meant to fight characters that would influence others or the story in one way or another. Those Kenpachi killed were just disposable to inflate his image (and it worked). Nobody else was truly seen fighting, because their presence wasn't necessary, therefore their skills and intelligence were irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    What makes me think so? Shunsui still being alive and running after 15+minutes of fighting a Quincy actually using Vollständig. There is absolutely no reason to think that he hadn't used it repeatedly, name me a single one.
    Actually using Vollstandig for a second, you mean. I know he didn't use it again because the power increase is massive, far beyond Bankai. It also applies to speed and every other Quincy ability. Evidence provided pages ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Nonsense. Yamamoto is gone, the highest possible loss by a huge degree. Byakuya was rendered near-dead and uncapable of fighting, three other captains him uncluded lost their strongest asset.
    And were those fights shown? No. Only Yamamoto was shown. Byakuya and Shunsui were only shown for a few seconds each and everybody else was just shown with some scratches but not fighting. These three characters were important during this invasion, the rest were just there for the sake of the story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Stop with that Vollständig jabbering already. How about I won't reply to those statements, unless you can provide your claims to work for most SternRitter, or at least show evidence that nobody but mustache Quincy used in in the battle.
    I can and have shown evidence that against Vollstandig more captains would have been at the very least as grave as Shunsui or Byakuya, and yet they are all fine. An underdeveloped Ishida could split a Bankai in half with a single arrow by using the obsolete version, what makes you think anybody would be able to survive something of that caliber?

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Yeah yeah, it is, sadly you can't accept the truth. I start to question your ability to differentiate your theories with hard facts.
    HERE'S WHAT I WAS REPLYING TO, YOU SMART ASS:

    Quote Quote:
    __________
    It wasn't even a valid response from you to begin with, and now that I answered to it for fun you are arrogantly using it as a weapon. Don't get clever here, you troll.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Clearly not enough to hurt the CC. You mean attacks like this, which Shigekuni swatted away like a mere fly? Good one.
    An attack clearly intended for a vice captain he almost made it sound like he pitied? Are you seriously bringing this here? How about Sasakibe's Bankai actually hurting Yamamoto?

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Every other attack != Ryujin Jakka. Also Royd > Discroll by a huge margin, don't even care what you think about this, but that's what was shown.
    You don't care about what I said, because it doesn't benefit you. EVERY display of Blut Vene has shown to be able to withstand immense amounts of power, WHY WOULD DRISCOLL BE AN EXCEPTION? Answer this, and don't evade with other twisted logic, since there's also no reason to believe Royd was superior to Driscoll.

    Have you seen those IMMENSE sound effects? That means a Bankai that controlled thunder was LOUD:

    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...18-page-5.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...18-page-9.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...8-page-15.html
    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...8-page-18.html

    But anyway, in case Driscoll stopped using lightning there since it's not very clear, it was still a surprise attack, because he thought he had won. Yamamoto didn't even have to move from his spot, just raise his arm and the fire did the rest. And you say that getting surprised makes him unworthy, even though everyone including Yamamoto gets attacked by surprise at one point or another.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    At the very least, yeah. He killed the average amount of Shinigami fodder, nothing impressive, as Äs Nodt and the girl had killed dozens at once too. Anybody only capable of less would not be worth fighting the captains to begin with.
    You realize this doesn't either upgrade or downgrade him, but puts him on their same level, at the very least?

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Still nowhere near his full potential.
    And did Driscoll have time to master it? Just like As Nodt, he was just using basic abilities. What if he kept going for a while, eventually getting the hang of it and becoming able to do more damage? Unless it has to do with the Zanpakuto spirit refusing to cooperate, but in context it sounds more like a Bankai takes a long time to master and Driscoll just stole it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    You've got to come to terms with what you want. If any captain but the CC was irrelevant, than who had to die?
    The story was about the Quincy taking revenge on the Shinigami for their war, and Yamamoto being the one responsible and the foundation of the Gotei 13 HAD to die. Other people could have died, could have survived, could have fought on screen, off screen, left, whatever, their presence there was to make the invasion a war, but the important person there was Yamamoto.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    What did you want to adress in the beginning? Any direct evidence or recorded talk between Kubo and his editors back that claim up?
    I'm talking from a storytelling perspective. If almost nobody was shown fighting was because they weren't relevant in this situation, unlike the Arrancar Arc were the Espada had to be defeated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    It just shows that the captains were capable of holding some SternRitter back, like the Rose or Hitsugaya encounter. You don't think those five new Shinigami will do all the work from now, do you? The Quincy might still outnumbe the Shinigami by a bit, so nearly everybody is needed again.
    Yes, they are needed again, but the point of the first invasion was that the Gotei would crumble, and that means the foundation stone, Yamamoto, would die. It wasn't about what did or didn't happen to most other captains including Kenpachi, except for Byakuya and Shunsui. Kenpachi's defeat was more like an excuse to mention him as a War Potential, not an actually substantial story development, because it really didn't do much anywhere, except maybe Ikkaku not taking the news too well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    So what?
    ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    It's a damn shounen manga with lot's of "perfect" match-up fights due to the number of different abilities. Do you want this manga to turn something it has never been?
    Overall this barely has anything to do with Kenpachi not being strong just because he killed three guys.
    This might come in handy. Maybe one in more analysis to come:

    The Thousand Year Blood War buildup and recap:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post3091160

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  3. #152
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    No, you're using inability to comprehend!

    If they were stronger htan Kenpachi, then Kenpachi wouldn't have been able to deal that kind of damage to them. It's like Dragon Ball Z, where someone like Krillin wouldn't have been able to hurt Frieza even if Frieza was being an idiot, due to difference in their power. The fact that Kenpachi was able to kill them without a problem, regardless of them being an idiot or not, proves they were weak. Bleach isn't Part I Naruto where power levels didn't matter.

    If Kenpachi was as idiotic as the ones he killed were when he fought Ichigo part I, he'd still be strong because Ichigo still wouldn't have been able to wound him, at least at start of the fight. In this case, all that could have happened was that the idiots would have died later, but they'd have lost eventually.
    It's like Dragon Ball Z? LIKE DBZ? LIKE DBZ!?!?

    I cannot NOR will I try to fathom the midset of individuals thinking Bleach being about power lvls but hey lets hear why you think it's so.

    .Since you think It's "power lvls" what do you think would happen to Yukio (fullbringer) if he fought Byakuya, Toshiro & Zaraki at the sametime when they are already trapped in a different plane in his pocket dimension. Surely they would be able to all escape by FORCING the dimension to break according to you correct?

    .Since you think it's power lvls, why did Ichigo hurt Zaraki in his first encounter (before connecting with Zangestu to receive a boost). Why was he able to cut him with his sharp blade?

    .Since you think it's power lvls based, why is it so that Ichigo (despite having roughly the same "power lvl" as Aizen) wasn't able to crush Grimmjow like Aizen did when he clash with Grimmjow?

    .Since you think it's power lvls, why did Tousen lose against Komamura & Hisagi despite having the greater "power lvl"?

    .Since you think it's power lvls, do you think Zommari would lose against Zaraki because Zaraki defeated Nnoitra who had more "power lvl" than Zommari?

    There are many parts I want to address concerning your post BUT FIRST, I will like a solid factual explanation to the questions above because at this point I'm puzzled as to how you think it's power lvl (reiatsu) based.
    Last edited by Kay3795; January 27, 2013 at 05:15 PM.

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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    There are many parts I want to address concerning your post BUT FIRST, I will like a solid factual explanation to the questions above because at this point I'm puzzled as to how you think it's power lvl (reiatsu) based.
    Because Aizen said so?

    Of course it's not enough, since there are other factors to a battle, but the thing is that those factors count only if the opponents are somewhat on the same level...if there's someone who is just a lot stronger, then that person will win

    With Kenpachi it's the same...when he puts his huge reiatsu to good use, he is pretty much unstoppable, but the problem is that he just like to prolong fights...he could've oneshotted all his enemies so far, if it wasn't for his sick mind...except Bach or Bach clone or whatever...

    But as it was said...this is shounen manga, so many things aren't happening as they could or should have

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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by benelori View Post
    Because Aizen said so?

    Of course it's not enough, since there are other factors to a battle, but the thing is that those factors count only if the opponents are somewhat on the same level...if there's someone who is just a lot stronger, then that person will win

    With Kenpachi it's the same...when he puts his huge reiatsu to good use, he is pretty much unstoppable, but the problem is that he just like to prolong fights...he could've oneshotted all his enemies so far, if it wasn't for his sick mind...except Bach or Bach clone or whatever...

    But as it was said...this is shounen manga, so many things aren't happening as they could or should have
    I don't know if you are serious or not though I sense that you aren't from your tone.

    Anyway the power lvl (reiatsu) topic is greatly misunderstood by many.
    To make best us of reiatsu, one must first have control of it. If someone masters that control then they can use even the most little amount to do the most incredible things because reiatsu becomes more potent. This is one of the reasons why Ichigo (despite having as much reiatsu as Aizen in the arrancar arc) couldn't outright crush the espadas in a clash of swords. Zaraki also falls in the same category as Ichigo.

    Even if control is perfected, to achieve maximum potential, one would benefit greatly if the reiatsu is reinforced by the fighting power of bankai. i.e Say you have a bankai & your bankai is power/strength based like Komamura's. In a clash of swords against an opponent whose zanpakuto isn't power/strength based. Inspite having equal reiatsu as well as control as your opponent, since your zanpakuto's reinforces your power/strength, you will become the victor in a clash.

    Zaraki doesn't have good control over his huge reiatsu NOR the fighting power of bankai.

  6. #155
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Ichigo in arrancar arc was a special case. It was Ulquiorra who noted the great difference between highs and lows in Ichigo's reiatsu. It was oscillating.
    With Kenpachi, it's not the same case. He's emitting whatever he has at all times if he doesn't use the eye-patch, so, these two are different cases.

  7. #156
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Ichigo in arrancar arc was a special case. It was Ulquiorra who noted the great difference between highs and lows in Ichigo's reiatsu. It was oscillating.
    With Kenpachi, it's not the same case. He's emitting whatever he has at all times if he doesn't use the eye-patch, so, these two are different cases.
    The main point being made is Zaraki reiatsu control SUCKS major balls just like Ichigo's control.

    From the first DAY Ichigo was a shinigami till this day, Ichigo's hasn't learned proper control (The track he creates when travelling between worlds should tell ya that).

  8. #157
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    The main point being made is Zaraki reiatsu control SUCKS major balls just like Ichigo's control.

    From the first DAY Ichigo was a shinigami till this day, Ichigo's hasn't learned proper control (The track he creates when travelling between worlds should tell ya that).
    I wasn't trying to argue with that. I merely stated that although his reiatsu control is non-existent, that probably affect the amount of reiatsu he's emitting. His Zanpakuto was in pain because of that brutal emittance. He can win just by the difference of reiatsu alone. By taking off his eye-patch, he doesn't get control over his reiatsu, but rather, he lets go of his minimal amount of control and completely puts out everything he has.
    However, against an opponent that has the battle experience of Bach, it just won't be enough (since Royd had his memories copied).

  9. #158
    Hound of Shadow 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member benelori's Avatar
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay3795 View Post
    I don't know if you are serious or not though I sense that you aren't from your tone.

    Anyway the power lvl (reiatsu) topic is greatly misunderstood by many.
    To make best us of reiatsu, one must first have control of it. If someone masters that control then they can use even the most little amount to do the most incredible things because reiatsu becomes more potent. This is one of the reasons why Ichigo (despite having as much reiatsu as Aizen in the arrancar arc) couldn't outright crush the espadas in a clash of swords. Zaraki also falls in the same category as Ichigo.

    Even if control is perfected, to achieve maximum potential, one would benefit greatly if the reiatsu is reinforced by the fighting power of bankai. i.e Say you have a bankai & your bankai is power/strength based like Komamura's. In a clash of swords against an opponent whose zanpakuto isn't power/strength based. Inspite having equal reiatsu as well as control as your opponent, since your zanpakuto's reinforces your power/strength, you will become the victor in a clash.

    Zaraki doesn't have good control over his huge reiatsu NOR the fighting power of bankai.
    Well using a lighthearted tone in discussions doesn't mean I'm actually joking...people should try discussing like this more often

    But Aizen said it right...battles between shinigami are battles of reiatsu...of course not just amount, but control as well, so I never argued the control part...but when someone is just way to powerful, then control doesn't really matter...Zaraki has lousy control right? But I bet he can still beat Madarame...that's just one example...Aizen provided a few more as well..

  10. #159
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member DraMas26's Avatar
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    This thread is still going? I'll just copy paste my analysis from another forum. I still haven't read any of the recent pages because they just look like a lot of arguing.

    Anyway after analysing the events carefully I think it becomes obvious that is was the real Juha Bach who defeated Kenpachi.

    Quote Originally Posted by DraMas26 View Post
    The Real Juha defeated Kenpachi NOT Royd

    I think this is the most likely scenario to what happened with Kenpachi and I think there's plenty of evidence for it.

    We see that after Bach decides to go invade SS there's an announcement telling all the SR to assemble at the Sun Gate:
    Spoiler show

    We even see the SR going towards the Sun Gate without Bach. Royd is a SR so he must have gone to the Sun Gate as well as the announcement said nothing about signalling him out and we know that he wasn't with Bach already because Bach was clearly alone in his throne room when he decided to head out to invade SS the previous chapter.

    Next we see Juha arrive in SS and create these pillars of Blue Reishi fire. This is the real Juha. All the SR were ordered to assemble at the Sun Gate and Juha was not seen going with them to the Sun Gate so the most logical answer is that Juha was to go to SS alone and create the pillars of Blue Reishi fire which would act as 'exits' to the Sun Gate for the SR (it would make sense for exits of the Sun Gate to be fire itself). This would make sense as Juha is the only Quincy so far who has shown to have the ability to create pillars of reishi fire.

    Next time we see Juha with Haschwalt right under him facing the 13th Division:
    Spoiler show

    So we know for a certain amount of time Juha was with Haschwalt. What we need to do is to pinpoint exactly when Juha left Haschwalt for Aizen and had Royd replace him.

    Next time we see Bach is right after Byakuya is defeated by As Nodt:
    Spoiler show

    I think the way Bach interacts with Bishie gives away that he's the real Bach. Royd doesn't make the most sense in terms of context. I mean everyone around them is dead so why would Royd be pretending to be Bach at that point in time? Makes more sense if it was the real Bach.

    Next we see Juha grabbing Kenpachi by the throat:
    Spoiler show

    It seems that Bach has some sort of personal interest in the SWP as he planned to recruit both Ichigo and Aizen. He also interacted with them personally. It would be strange for him to have Royd deal with Kenpachi. It would make more sense if he dealt with Kenpachi himself. I personally believing he plans on using the 5 SWP to combat the RG but that's another theory. I also think that perhaps Bach tried to recruit Kenpachi off-screen and maybe we'll be seeing that in a future Kenpachi flashback.

    Now Bach had dealt with Kenpachi and he knew that Kirge had Ichigo hostage so he could go deal with him when he returned to HQ. All that was left was Aizen but suddenly Yama appears to block his way.

    While Bach is confronted by Yama we see this strange sneak attack on Yama by 3 SR:
    Spoiler show

    The funny thing about this attack is that it's so stupid its ridiculous. The 3 SR don't try to use Vollstanding or their abilities. As Nodt doesn't even try to use his fear arrows. Sure the SR are cocky but they must know Yama's strength and must realise that simply jumping on him is suicide. At least Driscoll had a plan. Driscoll probably heard about how Sasakaibe's Bankai had left a permanent scar on Yama so he thought Sasakaibe's Bankai was OP and he could kill Yama with Sasakaibe's Bankai. However Sasakaibe's Bankai was weaker in his hands. However these 3 SR seemed to have no plan. Instead they just jumped on Yama out of nowhere which is beyond stupid.

    I think this is when the switch between Juha and Royd took place.

    What many people forget is that the sneak attack forced Yama to divert his attention away from Juha. Yama didn't want to kill the 3 SR because it would be dishonourable to kill loyal subordinates in front of their tyrannical ruler. So Yama defended himself but he took care to make sure the SR were not killed. You can even see this in the following pages:
    Spoiler show

    Yama even has his head turned around out of concern so it makes sense for him to temporarily not pay attention to Bach. Plus what people need to realise is that Quincies are humans. Sure Bach might be a former Shinigami but judging by Royd's flashback I'd say the safest assumption to make is that all the other Quincies are just regular humans. Let's recall what Bach said about Yama and humans:
    Spoiler show

    Bach outright states that Yama was overprotective of humans and that's what made him weak. The 3 SR intentionally or unintentionally used this to their advantage. They knew Yama would be overprotective of humans so he would take special care to not kill them and thus lose some of his attention against Bach. This is why judging time based on manga pages is a bad idea. For all we may know, Yama might have been staring at those 3 SR burning for 5 minutes because he felt pity for them. This gives ample opportunity for the switch to take place. It also explains why the 3 SR just randomly jumped on Yama like that.

    Another factor to consider is why would Juha pick Royd out of Royd and Loyd to impersonate him? Let's look at the pros and cons:

    Loyd - can replicate power and can obviously last longer in a fight against Yama
    Royd - cannot replicate power and needs to rely on his own to survive against Yama.
    - pries into the personal memory of those who he copies.
    - is a very good actor.

    The only advantage Royd had was his acting skills. Other than that not only was he not as powerful but he also invaded Bach's privacy by copying his memories. He would know the deepest darkest secrets of Bach's life. Loyd doesn't do that so why pick Royd? The answer is obvious the original plan was to use Loyd but use Royd in case Loyd is killed. We see Kenpachi rushing to Bach and as he does he killed Quincy nearby and this included Loyd. As Loyd was killed, Royd realised the duty was on him then. That's why Juha said Royd did well when he returned from Muken (because it was actually supposed to be his brother's job) but then killed him (as Royd pried into his personal memories).

    IMO the events went something like this:

    1. Royd, As Nodt, Nanana and Buzzbee meet up after their battles.
    2. Royd is aware that Bach wants to meet and try to recruit the SWP asap so in case Yama gets in the way and his brother is killed then he's supposed to fill in Bach's role.
    3. The 4 SR sense Loyd dying they rush to him to see how Bach's doing.
    4. The 4 SR arrive too late to the scene and see Yama already confronting Bach. They quickly think up a plan to divert Yama's attention away so Bach will still get his opportunity to try and recruit Aizen.
    5. As Nodt, Buzzbee and Nanana all jump on Yama and while Yama has his back turned Royd comes up to the real Juha and tells him that he's ready to switch places with him and that Juha can go see Aizen now.
    6. Royd takes on Juha's appearance and calls the 3 SR 'foolish people' the moment real Bach vanishes from sight (maybe via the Shadow technique).

    The next thing that needs to be understand in terms of context are this pages here:
    Spoiler show

    Over here I've seen a lot of people interpret Bach's lines to mean that he has been talking with Aizen ever since he entered SS but I honestly don't think that's the case when you apply the context behind the situation. The only reason Yama seemed to ask Bach is because he had discovered that Bach had left an imposter in his place:
    Spoiler show

    So when Yama says 'What have you been doing all this time?' he means 'What have you been doing all this time while you had an imposter take your place?'. The thing that people need to realise is that Yama doesn't necessarily know when the switch took place however Bach does know when he switched places with Royd. Thus Bach is answering from his own perspective. He's saying that during Yama's battle with Royd he has been talking with Aizen. After all Bach isn't a courteous guy so why would he waste time trying to correct Yama and tell him exactly when the switch took place? Do you seriously think Bach is going to say, 'By the way Shigekuni while those 3 SR jumped on you I switched places with Royd and went to see Sosuke Aizen. Before then I came and created the pillars of blue reishi fire which summoned the SR here and I watched as Haschwalt and I murdered the 13th Division members'. Why would bach bother being so courteous to Yama? It's quite unlike him so yeah I'm pretty sure when the real Bach comes back and says he has been talking to Aizen the whole time, he meant during the fight between Yama and Royd (which was an answer from his own perspective).


    The reason why Juha was so desperate to try and deal with the SWP asap is stated here:
    Spoiler show

    Juha knew that after he defeated Yama he pretty much defeated the rest of the Gotei 13 because their morale would be lost after the loss of their leader. However what Bach was worried about was the RG. It seems that Bach didn't seem to know much about the RG. All he seems to know is that they would come help SS after the Gotei 13 was defeated. It seems he wants to retreat and reassemble because he doesn't seem to know much about them and whats to take a safe approach to defeating them.

    Like Bach didn't seem to know how long it would take for the RG to arrive in SS. They might appear in 5 minutes or 5 hours. The RG > Gotei 13 so even with Yama's Bankai Bach knew he might end up losing to them so he decides to have his army retreat. He doesn't even bother trying to make sure all the rest of the Captains are dead. He just wants to retreat asap.

    It's only when Ichigo arrives that he decides to stay a bit longer but that is only to capture him and take him away as Bach says so here:
    Spoiler show

    The thing is that even though Bach is fighting Ichigo he's still in a big hurry to get out of SS. He tells Ichigo a bit about his origins but when Ichigo tries to question him further, Bach brushes him off and says he'll tell him when he takes him back to VR HQ. It really seems like Bach fears the RG that he wants to leave SS asap so he doesn't have to face them now. But the fact that he stopped to try and get Ichigo implies just how desperate Bach is to recruit these SWP (which gives some sustenance to my theory that Bach plans to use the 5 SWP to combate the 5 RG).

    This is why Bach went to go see Aizen asap. This is why Bach went to Aizen before killing Yama. Because Bach fears the RG. He probably doesn't know much about them but the little knowledge he does have tells him that the RG arrive when the Gotei 13 is defeated (which would essentially mean when Yama is defeated) however the timing of their arrival and such may not be to his knowledge so it would make sense for Bach to not want to take any risks. Suppose if Bach fought and killed Yama when he first turned up without using Royd, then Bach would fear that he won't have enough time to talk to Aizen because he probably won't know how quick the RG would be in arriving to save SS (and we all sure know Aizen likes to talk a lot lol).

    Above all this I just find Royd defeating Kenpachi to be illogical. You're telling me that Royd hurt eyepatchless Kenpachi so bad that he left him in a state where Kenpachi barely escaped death and is unlikely to even wake up or even resume his duties as a Captain due to seriousness of his wounds? Royd could do all of this when he can't copy powers while his brother who could copy powers was owned by Kenpachi? I don't find this plausible.

    Above all this I don't find the power that Royd displayed to be impressive enough to take credit for Kenpachi's defeat. What Royd basically had was speed. We barely saw much of an offence from him. When Yama was in Bankai Royd was pretty much running away from him for the entire battle. I've heard some people say Royd could fight on par with Yama in his Shikai but I disagree because we barely saw Royd do any fighting at all. All we saw was Yama create some fire and Royd created an explosion by striking his swird with Yamas. The main thing people need to realise is that Yama didn't give his all when he went Shikai against Royd. Yama was very angry and just wanted Royd to draw his sword so he could hurry up and kill him as brutally as possible as he says so here himself:
    Spoiler show

    So Yama pretty much just wanted to bait Royd into drawing his sword so he could give him a humiliating defeat by killing him with his Bankai. In a way Yama was arrogant. He had no strong reason to go Bankai. His Shikai could do so much more but Yama refused to do so opting instead to give into his anger. Even Royd is surprised that Yama goes Bankai asap. But yeah that's another story.

    So yeah using all the information available I think the most logical answer is that the real Juha defeated Kenpachi and not Royd.


    Some people told me that Juha could not have slipped away during the SR attack because it was only 1 second. This is what I said to them:

    Quote Originally Posted by DraMas26 View Post
    I honestly don't see why people find it so hard to believe that Bach couldn't have swapped places with Royd during during the 3 SR sneak attack on Yama since he has shown himself mroe than capable to do so in a similar scenario.
    Spoiler show

    Over here Bach blows up the 1st Division Building causing Yama to turn his back out of concern for Okikiba. Then Bach comes right up close to him. Yama doesn't even notice until it's too late.

    What happened with the 3 SR attack is similar:
    Spoiler show

    Let's not forgot what Bach stated made Yama weak: his desire to protect humans.

    Quincies are human. That should partially be the reason why Yama spared the lives of the 3 SR. He probably didn't have the heart to kill them as he used to back in the old days. Also because he saw they were trying to sacrifice themselves for a leader who didn't care at all about them and Yama would obviously consider it dishonourable to kill them then and there.

    But anyway his honor and his desire to protect humans was something described by Bach himself to be his weakness. Bearing this in mind the 3 SR sneak attack makes sense. Those 3 SR took advantage of Yama's compassion and Bach used it to sneak away while Royd swapped places with him. This is similar to how Bach was able to come up right behind Yama after he diverted his attention by attacking his subordinate thus taking advantage of Yama's compassion. Yama had his eyes off Bach in both scenarios so it wouldn't be a stretch to say Bach could out-manouvere him in both these cases.

    So yeah I think Bach being the one to defeat Kenpachi and sneak away during the 3 SR attack to speak with Aizen makes logical sense. After all Bach has shown that he wants to deal with SWP personally. He went to speak with Aizen because he was a SWP. He was planning to speak with Ichigo when he returned to VR HQ because he was a SWP. Bach seems to want to recruit these SWP himself. Why would he leave Kenpachi, a SWP like Aizen and Ichigo, to Royd? That doesn't make any sense. It makes more logical sense if he entered SS intending to first speak with Kenpachi and then with Aizen however Kenpachi came to him and after that Yama bocked his way so the 3 SR sneak attacked him so that Royd could swap places with him. I don't see any other logical way of explaining all these events unless of course you believe these events are just random and Kubo just drew them for the sake of drawing them.

    Anyway I'll just wait for the future chapters because I have a strong hunch that Kubo's going to confirm in the future, subtley or not, whether it was Royd or Juha who defeated Kenpachi. Kubo has just left so many clues for this case that I find it to be quite unlikely that he would not bother giving an answer.
    Last edited by DraMas26; January 29, 2013 at 02:49 PM.

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  12. #160
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member NoOneInParticular's Avatar
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    ^Some interesting points, but a few things...

    We don't really know how those pillars of fire are created, whether it's by Bach or by the Stern Ritter themselves (which I think is more likely). It's possible that it's a function of the Sun Gate, but we don't know how the gate works. I suppose it is notable that Bach entered from above whilst the SR emerged from the fire pillars, but since Royd's whole purpose during the invasion was to impersonate Bach, there's no reason he shouldn't have taken Bach's form before even leaving Vandenreich's palace. The real Bach could have entered SS covertly whilst Royd took his place on the front lines.

    Also, the advantage Royd has over Lloyd is that he perfectly mimics memories and personality, which makes him the ideal one to take Bach's place. He had all the memories of Bach forming his plan and copying his personality meant he would act with a perfect replication of Bach's judgement, making him suited to giving out orders if necessary. It also meant he could interact with Kenpachi as a SWP and deal with him in exactly the way Bach would have done himself, so Bach wouldn't have to worry about any mistakes being made in his absence.

    You've got a point, it is possible that Bach switched places with Royd in the instant Yama was distracted by the 3 SR, but I don't think it's the case. Meeting Aizen seemed to be a priority for Bach, otherwise why even bother with the decoy scheme? So it would make more sense for Bach to go there immediately, rather than hanging around in Seireitei waiting for an opportunity to switch with Royd. Also, Given that Muken, as we now know, is an endless dimension, it makes sense that it would take Bach the entire length of the invasion to actually track Aizen down. But logically, waiting to trade places with a decoy in the middle of Seireitei rather than having the decoy take his place from the start risks blowing the whole scheme before it's even been effective. What if someone saw them? It makes more sense to have Royd use his ability when they're still in their own territory.

    As for why Royd was so much more powerful than other SR...

    http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...6-page-20.html

    Bach evidently has some level of control over the strength of his subordinates' Blut. So it's possible he strengthened Royd specifically for battle with Yama. This way his decoy has the strength Lloyd can copy, as well as the memories and personality Royd copies, making him a better mimic of Bach than just one or the other.

  13. #161
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member DraMas26's Avatar
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    I'm quite confident the pillars of blue reishi fire is a unqiue abiltiy that Bach only has. This is because the only time we see it happen is when he's around. First is when he uses them to allow the SR to enter into SS.

    The next time he uses it is when he blows up Division 1 HQ:

    http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/510/6

    It's exactly the same as those pillars when Bach first entered SS. Bach used it to anger Yama so he could egg him into going Bankai again. No other SR has shown to have the ability to use them so I think it's strongly implied that the blue pillars of reishi fire is an ability of Bach.

    It's true that Royd perfectly copies memories and personality but like I said earlier that would mean he knows everything about Juha. Everything. Would someone like Juha who believes he's superior to most of his subordinates want someone like Royd to find out about the deepest most darkest secrets of his life? I don't think so.

    Remember when Yama bought back those dead Quincies. Royd, impersonating Bach, had tears in his eyes as he had to fight through them:

    http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/509/13

    This means that Juha, contrary to recent cases, did care about some of his subordinates. He cared about them so much that he would start crying if he had to fight through their skeletons. I don't think Juha would want anyone to find out about that. It's too personal.

    That's why I think it's more likely Juha's plan was ot originally use Loyd and only use Royd as backup. Sure Royd's acting skills were great but he only needed to impersonate Juha for a short amount of time. It's not like he had to impersonate him for months and needed to know everything about him so acting wasn't a top priority. Plus this battle was against Yama who's super strong. Survivng is a higher priority in order to fool Yama because even if Yama figures out he's fighting a fake he still has to finish his battle before he goes to deal with the real Juha. Combine this with how Loyd was positioned close to Juha on the battlefield (assuming Juha created the pillars of Blue Reishi fire which I believe is the most likely case). I think it's more likely Loyd was originally supposed to impersonate him. Royd seemed more like a backup plan and that can be supported by how Juha congratulated him on doing well when he returned. Juha said he did well because originally it was his brother who was supposed to do the job because he would be able to replicate his powers. Royd could only rely on his own powersto survive so i owuld have been mroe difficult for him.

    Also another thing is why did Juha want to talk with Aizen? He wanted to talk with Aizen because he's a SWP and he wanted to recruit him. Same with Ichigo who Bach wants to recruit himself. Juha seems to want to personally propose to them. I mean wouldn't the easier scenario be to get Royd to copy him and go see Aizen but instead Juha went himself which doesn't make much sense because it would make more sense for him to stay on the battlefield and help exterminate the Shinigami. It seems Juha wants to recruit all the SWP (probably to combat the RG IMO) so I don't see why he would leave Kenpachi to his double since Kenpachi is a SWP.

    As for the risk of switching on the battlefield, I don't think there was much of a risk. The VR were overwhelming the Shinigami and obviously any Shinigami near Bach was going to get killed. The only one who stood a chance aginst him was Yama so as long as he had Yama distracted it shouldn't be hard for him to make the switch.

    As for the blut vene strengthening, if blut venes could be strengthened so easily I don't see why Juha wouldn't do it to all the SR. Like I don't see why some SR would get the privelage of having stronger Blut than others by as far as how much it can improved upon. It makes more sense for Bach to give the same boost in Blut Vene to all the SR assuming he can (there's nothing to suggest he can't atm) as all the SR were going to help invade SS.

  14. #162
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member NoOneInParticular's Avatar
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by DraMas26 View Post
    I'm quite confident the pillars of blue reishi fire is a unqiue abiltiy that Bach only has. This is because the only time we see it happen is when he's around. First is when he uses them to allow the SR to enter into SS.

    The next time he uses it is when he blows up Division 1 HQ:

    http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/510/6

    It's exactly the same as those pillars when Bach first entered SS. Bach used it to anger Yama so he could egg him into going Bankai again. No other SR has shown to have the ability to use them so I think it's strongly implied that the blue pillars of reishi fire is an ability of Bach.
    Well, in the case of the pillars that appeared in SS when the invasion began, the SR were the ones standing in the middle of them. So I think it's more likely they were the ones generating them, not Bach himself. It seems to simply be one of the Vandenreich's Quincy abilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by DraMas26 View Post
    It's true that Royd perfectly copies memories and personality but like I said earlier that would mean he knows everything about Juha. Everything. Would someone like Juha who believes he's superior to most of his subordinates want someone like Royd to find out about the deepest most darkest secrets of his life? I don't think so.

    Remember when Yama bought back those dead Quincies. Royd, impersonating Bach, had tears in his eyes as he had to fight through them:

    http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/509/13

    This means that Juha, contrary to recent cases, did care about some of his subordinates. He cared about them so much that he would start crying if he had to fight through their skeletons. I don't think Juha would want anyone to find out about that. It's too personal.

    That's why I think it's more likely Juha's plan was ot originally use Loyd and only use Royd as backup. Sure Royd's acting skills were great but he only needed to impersonate Juha for a short amount of time. It's not like he had to impersonate him for months and needed to know everything about him so acting wasn't a top priority. Plus this battle was against Yama who's super strong. Survivng is a higher priority in order to fool Yama because even if Yama figures out he's fighting a fake he still has to finish his battle before he goes to deal with the real Juha. Combine this with how Loyd was positioned close to Juha on the battlefield (assuming Juha created the pillars of Blue Reishi fire which I believe is the most likely case). I think it's more likely Loyd was originally supposed to impersonate him. Royd seemed more like a backup plan and that can be supported by how Juha congratulated him on doing well when he returned. Juha said he did well because originally it was his brother who was supposed to do the job because he would be able to replicate his powers. Royd could only rely on his own powersto survive so i owuld have been mroe difficult for him.
    Yama never used the skeleton ability on Bach before though, as Royd had no clue what was happening when the attack started. So Bach couldn't have predicted Yama would be able to do anything that would stir up that kind of reaction in Royd. But even if he could, the only other person who was supposed to be there was Haschwald, who Bach seems to be closer to and maybe capable of trusting. But regarding sharing his memories with someone, you're right, it is a hugely trusting thing to do. It's possible that Bach never intended for Royd to leave alive. He did arrive on the scene the instant after Royd had been cut down - that perfect timing might be down to Bach actually waiting for Yama to finish Royd before stepping in.

    Quote Originally Posted by DraMas26 View Post
    Also another thing is why did Juha want to talk with Aizen? He wanted to talk with Aizen because he's a SWP and he wanted to recruit him. Same with Ichigo who Bach wants to recruit himself. Juha seems to want to personally propose to them. I mean wouldn't the easier scenario be to get Royd to copy him and go see Aizen but instead Juha went himself which doesn't make much sense because it would make more sense for him to stay on the battlefield and help exterminate the Shinigami. It seems Juha wants to recruit all the SWP (probably to combat the RG IMO) so I don't see why he would leave Kenpachi to his double since Kenpachi is a SWP.
    Between Aizen and Kenpachi, Aizen would be the trickier to deal with, given his intelligence and craftiness. Since they were working on a time limit, Bach might not have been able to see to both Kenpachi and Aizen, so left the easier one to his subordinate. But it's not like Kanpeachi is someone to be reasoned with at the best of times. Maybe Bach's plan with him was just to beat him into submission and forcibly bring him into VR's ranks, like he was about to do to Ichigo before time ran out. If that's the case, all he would need was for Royd to be strong enough to defeat him, which wasn't asking too much given that he also had to hold his own against Yama.

    Quote Originally Posted by DraMas26 View Post
    As for the risk of switching on the battlefield, I don't think there was much of a risk. The VR were overwhelming the Shinigami and obviously any Shinigami near Bach was going to get killed. The only one who stood a chance aginst him was Yama so as long as he had Yama distracted it shouldn't be hard for him to make the switch.
    I suppose that could have been the purpose of having Driscoll kill Sasakibe days beforehand, in order to give Yama a target to focus on before rushing to Bach, buying him time to make the switch. Still, it's more practical for everyone to assume their roles before the invasion, so they can see to their assigned tasks immediately. It's more efficient. The chance of being seen switching on the battlefield was slim, yes, but why take even a slim chance?

    Quote Originally Posted by DraMas26 View Post
    As for the blut vene strengthening, if blut venes could be strengthened so easily I don't see why Juha wouldn't do it to all the SR. Like I don't see why some SR would get the privelage of having stronger Blut than others by as far as how much it can improved upon. It makes more sense for Bach to give the same boost in Blut Vene to all the SR assuming he can (there's nothing to suggest he can't atm) as all the SR were going to help invade SS.
    Well, there's probably some degree of limitation to it. Maybe the SR all draw from one source of power, and increasing someone's Blut by too much would come at the cost of everyone else's. For Bach not to have the SR Blut at higher levels constantly must mean there's some kind of cost to doing so. Honestly all we can do is speculate until Quilge's statement is explained, but there's definitely something to it.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member DraMas26's Avatar
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Regarding the pillars of fire, Bach didn't enter through them. Instead he came himself to SS. This is odd considering how Baach loves chatting with Haschwalt all the time. Since Haschwalt used the pillars of Blue reishi fire to enter and Bach didn't then I think it strongly suggests the pillars of blue reishi fire was an ability of Bach. I mean why else did Bach come alone to SS without his troops and then conjure some pillars of Blue Reishi fire? I mean we later saw that Haschwalt had exited the pillar that was next to Bach and started talking to him. Don't you find that redundant if Bach and Haschwalt could have jsut entered SS together via the pillars of Blue Reishi fire?

    Whether Bach actually knew about the full ability Yama's Bankai is debatable. Yama stated he didn't ever reveal it and that's why his Bankai apparently couldn't be stolen. However the fact that Bach could steal it and teased Yama about bringing his men back suggests he already was aware of whatever Yama's Bankai could do. After all I doubt Bach had time or a way to observe Yama's battle iwth Royd when he was in Muken.

    It's true that Aizen is crafty but doesn't it then make more sense to send Royd after him? After all you bypass craftiness with mind and mentality. Something that Royd could get. It's not like Aizen could fight. He was chained up and even Bach was surprised when he later found out that Aizen messed with his senses however he didn't expect that to happen as he clearly said he had no idea how Aizen messed up his perception of time. But since Bach was stronger than Royd and Royd could have easily copied Bach's mind and mentality wouldn't it make mroe sense for himself ot beat up Kenpachi (especially with the reveal of his bailtiy in the latest chapter) and send Royd after Aizen?

    Well yeah the chance of being seen switching was slim but there was a greater chance of Bach being seen going to Muken while there was another Bach on the battlefield. Yet Bach still took that chance so I don't see why he wouldn't risk the switch being seen. I mean if the plan was to use Loyd all along then it wouldn't be too much of a risk because Yama still has to get past Loyd before he can go after the real Bach.

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    I don't think the pillars of blue fire were actually used to enter sereitei. I mean, the pillars were not a factor earlier when the war was declared. More so, while not as extreme as in SS the blue fire was also seen during the HM invasion of the quincy. I would argue the purpose of the fire is limited to releasing reishi so that the quincy have more of it available to use while fighting. Back when ishida and chad went to hueco mundo ishida showed something very interesting. He was unable to attack his huge enemy arrancar because the arrancar was hogging all the reishi in the air for his own attacks. In this regard the quincy do compete with each other for reishi in some scenarios. Over saturating the environment with reishi ensures that quincy don't have to compete with each other and it helps the quincy maintain top form in combat. Overall I would think the quincy and juhabach went into SS independently of the blue fire. Rather they started the fires after they got there. They entered SS the same way we have seen them move earlier, with the shadow thing. Perhaps more importantly, the fire did not seem to play a role in the quincy leaving SS, that was just the shadows.

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  18. #165
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member NoOneInParticular's Avatar
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    Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by DraMas26 View Post
    Regarding the pillars of fire, Bach didn't enter through them. Instead he came himself to SS. This is odd considering how Baach loves chatting with Haschwalt all the time. Since Haschwalt used the pillars of Blue reishi fire to enter and Bach didn't then I think it strongly suggests the pillars of blue reishi fire was an ability of Bach. I mean why else did Bach come alone to SS without his troops and then conjure some pillars of Blue Reishi fire? I mean we later saw that Haschwalt had exited the pillar that was next to Bach and started talking to him. Don't you find that redundant if Bach and Haschwalt could have jsut entered SS together via the pillars of Blue Reishi fire?
    But couldn't the fact that Haschvald used the pillar while Bach didn't also suggest it's Haschwald's technique? Anyway, the SR used those pillars to enter the battlefield. Bach/Royd weren't actually fighting though. Until Kenpachi challenged him, he was just standing in the air overseeing the whole thing. That could be why he didn't bother using a pillar.

    Quote Originally Posted by DraMas26 View Post
    Whether Bach actually knew about the full ability Yama's Bankai is debatable. Yama stated he didn't ever reveal it and that's why his Bankai apparently couldn't be stolen. However the fact that Bach could steal it and teased Yama about bringing his men back suggests he already was aware of whatever Yama's Bankai could do. After all I doubt Bach had time or a way to observe Yama's battle iwth Royd when he was in Muken.
    True, but Quilge had some kind of monitoring device attached to his glasses, allowing him to recieve orders from HQ. If Royd's purpose was to draw out Yama's techniques, I imagine Bach would have had a means of monitoring the situation from afar.

    Quote Originally Posted by DraMas26 View Post
    It's true that Aizen is crafty but doesn't it then make more sense to send Royd after him? After all you bypass craftiness with mind and mentality. Something that Royd could get. It's not like Aizen could fight. He was chained up and even Bach was surprised when he later found out that Aizen messed with his senses however he didn't expect that to happen as he clearly said he had no idea how Aizen messed up his perception of time. But since Bach was stronger than Royd and Royd could have easily copied Bach's mind and mentality wouldn't it make mroe sense for himself ot beat up Kenpachi (especially with the reveal of his bailtiy in the latest chapter) and send Royd after Aizen?
    Maybe, but the Bach standing in the middle of the battlefield is the one Yamamoto will come for, and it's safer for Yamamoto to unleash his power on an expendable pawn than the leader himself. So it makes more sense for Royd to be the one stationed above ground, leaving Bach to handle the covert stuff, breaking into the prison where Aizen was.

    Well yeah the chance of being seen switching was slim but there was a greater chance of Bach being seen going to Muken while there was another Bach on the battlefield. Yet Bach still took that chance so I don't see why he wouldn't risk the switch being seen. I mean if the plan was to use Loyd all along then it wouldn't be too much of a risk because Yama still has to get past Loyd before he can go after the real Bach.[/QUOTE]

    Well, we don't know how Bach infiltrated the 1st Division barracks and Muken. His subordinates managed to step into Yamamoto's office with no trouble, so it seems they have a means of getting places unseen. With all that was going on in Seireitei at the time, sneaking around might not have been difficult at all.

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