How did Kenpachi get beat?

[Schabrak]

Now? And what about the "weakened, shackled Kenpachi that Unohana killed tens or hundreds of times? That's the Kenpachi that killed those three Stern Ritter.

Yes, it was lucky and I already explained why multiple times. Stop thinking with your biceps.

A Unohana who would have very likely slaughtered a lot of SternRitter easily herself, that's the entire point of her being so sad about Shigekuni's decision to hold her back. Kenpachi's fulll strength is just that much higher than everybody else thatFor the sake of the future of SS she had to hold back risking so many lifes despite being capable of doing so much herself.

It's still a feat, disregard it or not.

[Hakuteiken]

Moderator message by: Hakuteiken

Please try to stay on topic without straying to personal debates and while discussing, use proper manner to convey your thoughts.

[Torran]

Eh, we've got three short panels for three fights with little information at that. Where does it state that Loyd can't and didn't use BV/BA while using his personal ability? Nowhere. Same with The Roar. So please spare me your talk about evidence.

90% of those wounds are lethal to any human and likely shinigami too. Nobody said he can't die, if he survived a fight despite being beaten beforehand, good for him, happened to dozens of other characters in Bleach already too. What's the point again?

My fault, bad wording.

Yamamoto's praise and words are not enough? And him being the only one with Ukitake to fight Stark and actually being able to beat him with Shikai only apparently is no evidence at all. And as you like to mention yourself, he's the only one to be shown fighting someone who's using Fullständig. But please, keep ignoring that. Everything that's not supporting your viewpoint is not a true source, funny attitude. You want a source? The manga, it's fights and their order increasing with stronger characters/opponents, keeping the most senior and likely stronger/st captain's abilites a secret until the last arc. Standard shounen manga procedure.

Yeah, that's you putting words into my mouth. Lower, middle, high tier, everything while staying captains.

Do what they have shown doing and do what we haven't been shown yet. It clearly put's them on another tier, especially when fighting together as a team. Those two would have a way to fight Yamamoto, Komamura would not. Thanks for proving my point. Why would Yamamoto feel the need to comment on Kyoraku's shunpo speed if it's just on median captain level?[Ch155P8] Because it's above, easy deduction.
Let's imagine KomamuraXTousen VS Yamamoto: Tousen uses his sense blinding, Yamamoto obliterates the area to destroy the bankai, Sajin uses his strength, he get's trashed easily as he was with Aizen. End.

You can reduce them to the any degree you want, but ignoring I will keep going with my interpretation, you with yours.

So yeah, they've got to keep the Reiatsu for some time. My point exactly. We don't know if he meant one, five or ten minutes. Enough time for the SternRitter in SS, since they have only planed to stay there for half and hour at most anyway.

... seriously, are you incapable of reading? Kay3795 clearly wrote about SR getting killed, I replied about SR definitely being killed. Than you replied to me and changed the topic for yourself without a mention that it's "now" about all deafeats too. Get things straight before accusing me of using fallacies.

You did change it, you alone. Yeah there was a argument about Nanana and Co being defeated, but I only replied to his comment on "many" SR being killed, with a return of yourself that it's half of 16, which is clearly false.[Discroll, Shaz, The Roar, Youself, Yourself 2/Royd[shouldn't be included in the stupid list], The Why < 16/2]

That's in no way showing us that Bach would have bee in some deep shit, it shows that Ichigo has depleted his reiatsu to a huge degree and therefore couldn't spam Tenshou like he usually does, but not much else. The reason he got into the Royal City was entirely different than the one for the others, who had to be healed. He not only let the reiatsu explode out of his body, he sucked some of it back too, activating the only new ability that let him survive the short clash with Juha. I see it like the difference between Bankai Ichigo and Uliquerra second release, immense.

One of his main features is the incredible increase in speed when in bankai mode. I can't remember Ishida speed blitzing around in Letzt Still, so what's the point?

You don't believe that yourself, do you?

Yes, but we still don't know if any of those used their abilities to their full potential, partially or not at all. Yes, Mustachio did present the short term use of Fullständig, Äs Nodt that some skills can be quiet fearful :P, yet that doesn't mean that everybody else is/could have been irrelevant. We both know that they were held back, just so they could show off their powers in their one and only fight, so not to repeat stuff. Don't think we have a conflict on this topic.

Since you say you know, I can't take this reply serious anymore. You simply do not know and neither do I or any other readers. Mustachio talks about getting a boost of moral by his boss, so why wouldn't he fight seriously at all? Why not take Shunsui a known gamble in an actual fight, head on and kill him with all he's got? Aside from a "next fight".

As you yourself have mentioned, they was no need to show them fighting, doesn't stop the losses and clashes from being present.

They will have to in their next encounters obviously, without everyone getting a free power-up from nowhere, since that wouldn't make sense.

Since he talks about attacks getting stronger with every single attack, I imagine him to show off right there too. It still stands that Yama swatted it away like it was nothing, while it would likely have killed Kira without any problems. We don't even know if he used his Spear at all before after killing Sasakibe, so who are we to pinpoint how strong that new attack was?

Ryujin Jakka is the strongest Shikai in G13, what else do you need? It's stronger and more powerful than what most have shown. Discroll isn't an exception, but one of many who would have fallen to Yamamoto's attack.
Of course there is a reason to believe so, he was specially used to fight the strongest member of SS, his Blut was indicated to be strengthened for the invasion, he also had abilities of Juha[or not] that put him on an entire different stage.

Discroll was clearly listening, since his speech interrupted by Yama himself, so the thunder was not hindering him from hearing what was said. You can imagine it did, but it did not.

Him not being worthy: My opinion. He fucked up hugely despite boasting beforehand and losing like fooder.

That's not a huge feat and never would have been after the FKT arc. Anybody putting any stress at all to the G13 had to be capable of killing dozens of fodder shinigami, Hisagi included, he isn't even capable of using Bankai yet and therefor even further afar from using one efficiently.

He had a couple days to train, don't come with that kind of execuse. It's his idiocy that led to him not being able to use it fully. Does anything indicate to the medallions having a need to comunicate with the spirits? Maybe it was Discroll who couldn't fully control it like Bach had mentioned no one else being capable of wielding/controling Shigekuni's Zanka no Tachi like he does. Äs Nödt had used it's power quiet proficient already.

There were some shocking, but losable shinigami like Kira, all captains but Genryuusai dead, Byakuya nearly, Zaraki plot driven healed again. A devastating blow was thrown onto Soul Society and Bach's goal to elicit the Royal Guards fulfilled. If the plot allows them to shine or live in the future, I'm all for it, why not.

I agree.

I agree with the first part, but new plot development has shown that Kenpachi's near losses had an huge meaning for his ccurent change which will make him one of the most important characters for the future. He had to lose against someone strong and this fight was perfect for that, so Kubo wouldn't have to create a news setting/stage with another fight aside from Yamamoto, Byakuya and Koryaku. There was clearly no need to expand that story part any longer.

Yeah that's true, but he still killed more than anybody else. :P

Eh, we've got three short panels for three fights with little information at that.

The first two are clear enough. The Roar jumped at Kenpachi and cut cut in half, and the flashback panel shows the Roar with an expression as if he wasn't expecting that, very similar to Nnoitra's Fraccion and Giriko.

Where does it state that Loyd can't and didn't use BV/BA while using his personal ability? Nowhere. Same with The Roar. So please spare me your talk about evidence.

I didn't mention the Roar. Loyd becomes Kenpachi in EVERY aspect physically. Kenpachi can't use Blutz, Loyd shouldn't after BECOMING Kenpachi. And even if he had, Blut Vene is far too hard to cut for Kenpachi to have won so easily.

90% of those wounds are lethal to any human and likely shinigami too. Nobody said he can't die, if he survived a fight despite being beaten beforehand, good for him, happened to dozens of other characters in Bleach already too. What's the point again?

Back at you. Why are you changing my point? Most people who are meant to die or fall in battle receive grave injuries, Kenpachi keeps getting cut in the chest or stabbed in the gut. Compare to others who get nearly cut in half or stabbed in the chest. The only case where he hasn't been as lucky is against Unohana.

Yamamoto's praise and words are not enough?

Yamamoto's praise and words are enough as far as proving they were very skilled as they were young and grew up to be great captains. This is actually a testament of strength, however, proof that they are as strong as you claim them to be? No. That can only be gathered from fights. So long Shunsui has proven to be a GOOD fighter, who knows what he's doing and who will do whatever it takes to win the battle, nothing more nothing less. Ukitake should be equal or close either above or below as long as he's not coughing up a kidney. They both haven't shown to be exceptional at Kido, Shunpo, hand to hand combat, agility, strategy, physical strength or endurance. Good all around, not best.

And him being the only one with Ukitake to fight Stark and actually being able to beat him with Shikai only apparently is no evidence at all.

You are blatantly ignoring the events and details that led to his victory. I filled almost 10 pages on the Ranking of Captains thread explaining in detail why. I'm not doing it again. But I'm going to tell you that severely weakening Starrk by surprise before fighting him directly does not prove Shunsui to be superior to anyone, and beating him with just Shikai is just irrelevant.

And as you like to mention yourself, he's the only one to be shown fighting someone who's using Fullständig. But please, keep ignoring that.

Sure, keep acting stupid. The mustache guy used Vollstandig FOR A SECOND, and it was enough to escape getting cut in half and shoot Shunsui close enough to take both his right ear and eye, as well as leaving a big scar on his temple. He didn't "fight" Vollstandig, he was attacked by a user and it was enough to lose part of his face, even when the shot missed. I don't ignore anything, you keep ignoring the details as if you were above them, or me, as you were so quick to attack me without putting any thought in your claim.

Everything that's not supporting your viewpoint is not a true source, funny attitude.

The manga is the true primary source. The databooks are secondary source and more often than not written based on the manga. There's very few actual new information in them. And on top of that, those battle stats are vague and hardly representative of the proven feats from different characters. They only way I could find them somewhat true would be if every character stat had an individual scale, and that already is unreliable.

You want a source? The manga, it's fights and their order increasing with stronger characters/opponents, keeping the most senior and likely stronger/st captain's abilites a secret until the last arc. Standard shounen manga procedure.

This is baseless and also ignoring details. During the Arrancar Arc only two new Bankai were shown, and both were used against very strong and dangerous opponents, being Barragan who was literally impossible to approach or attack and WonderWeiss, who was strong enough to take Yamamoto head on in a fist fight. Neither Shunsui or Ukitake had to face them or somebody as dangerous, Shunsui had to wait until Starrk got rid of his guns and wolves.

Yeah, that's you putting words into my mouth. Lower, middle, high tier, everything while staying captains.

I'm just repeating what you are saying. There's no reason to "rank" captains, because there's no reason to believe anybody to be overall better than another, unless it comes to specific skills. Any captain should be able to defeat another depending on the circumstances.

Do what they have shown doing and do what we haven't been shown yet. It clearly put's them on another tier, especially when fighting together as a team. Those two would have a way to fight Yamamoto, Komamura would not. Thanks for proving my point. Why would Yamamoto feel the need to comment on Kyoraku's shunpo speed if it's just on median captain level?[Ch155P8] Because it's above, easy deduction.
Let's imagine KomamuraXTousen VS Yamamoto: Tousen uses his sense blinding, Yamamoto obliterates the area to destroy the bankai, Sajin uses his strength, he get's trashed easily as he was with Aizen. End.

You can reduce them to the any degree you want, but ignoring I will keep going with my interpretation, you with yours.

And how does this put them in a different tier? Their abilities are better used to evade and counter, not for direct attack, which was especially handy when fighting Yamamoto, but that doesn't make them superior against everybody else. If they were forced to fight head on against an opponent that is better suited to fight head on their abilities would lose their advantage.
Yamamoto complimented Shunsui and directly compared them both to having grown since the Shinigami Academy ways. By the way, Shunsui also got easily trashed by Aizen, and he didn't even try to fight him head on, so it's not like your claim proves your point in this regard.

So yeah, they've got to keep the Reiatsu for some time. My point exactly. We don't know if he meant one, five or ten minutes. Enough time for the SternRitter in SS, since they have only planed to stay there for half and hour at most anyway.

But it wouldn't last forever, not with a human or spiritual limit.

... seriously, are you incapable of reading? Kay3795 clearly wrote about SR getting killed, I replied about SR definitely being killed. Than you replied to me and changed the topic for yourself without a mention that it's "now" about all deafeats too. Get things straight before accusing me of using fallacies.

You did change it, you alone. Yeah there was a argument about Nanana and Co being defeated, but I only replied to his comment on "many" SR being killed, with a return of yourself that it's half of 16, which is clearly false.[Discroll, Shaz, The Roar, Youself, Yourself 2/Royd[shouldn't be included in the stupid list], The Why < 16/2]

This was my original statement:

"Driscoll, those other three, another three, and another one. That's half of those 16."

To which you responded with:

"Those three and another three? Which exactly? Since only the Mohawk one was shown alive, we should asume that the rest is dead? Oo"

And I replied with:

"Strawman. It was about defeats and deaths combined."

Then you said:

"And no again. Doesn't look like we are talking about defeats here at all."

So it looks like halfway through you aimed your post at Kay despite originally replying to me.

That's in no way showing us that Bach would have bee in some deep shit, it shows that Ichigo has depleted his reiatsu to a huge degree and therefore couldn't spam Tenshou like he usually does, but not much else. The reason he got into the Royal City was entirely different than the one for the others, who had to be healed. He not only let the reiatsu explode out of his body, he sucked some of it back too, activating the only new ability that let him survive the short clash with Juha. I see it like the difference between Bankai Ichigo and Uliquerra second release, immense.

Bach was hurt severely (and don't tell me his right arm was merely scratched, it looks as if it was used to polish a granite wall) by a half-assed Getsuga Tenshou only a fraction of what he's capable of doing now. Ichigo was hurt and exhausted, his performance suffered from it.

One of his main features is the incredible increase in speed when in bankai mode. I can't remember Ishida speed blitzing around in Letzt Still, so what's the point?

You can't remember even though it clearly happened? Ichigo was nearly blitzed by Quilge even though he was fast enough to counter the FLASH GOD whilst butt naked.

You don't believe that yourself, do you?

I won't believe anything I know nothing about. It takes some serious power to cut such a powerful Zanpakuto in half, so there can be another reason besides "strength", which is Haschwald becoming stronger if Bach is in danger, which could explain why he's so close all the time. It's just a guess if you didn't notice.

Since you say you know, I can't take this reply serious anymore. You simply do not know and neither do I or any other readers. Mustachio talks about getting a boost of moral by his boss, so why wouldn't he fight seriously at all? Why not take Shunsui a known gamble in an actual fight, head on and kill him with all he's got? Aside from a "next fight".

Apart from the already provided explanation, Shunsui literally was never shown fighting. It was always him standing around, same with Mustacho, as if they were waiting for somebody. Only exceptions were the Vollstandig bit, the cut in the chest and the multiple shots. The only opportunity to use Vollstandig would be those brief moments in between. By the way, Mustacho kind of lost his morale boost as soon as he saw Yamamoto's power.

As you yourself have mentioned, they was no need to show them fighting, doesn't stop the losses and clashes from being present.

And they can't be used as substantial evidence to support the claim that "Kenpachi is strong because he killed three SR while the rest didn't, so he must be stronger".

Since he talks about attacks getting stronger with every single attack, I imagine him to show off right there too. It still stands that Yama swatted it away like it was nothing, while it would likely have killed Kira without any problems. We don't even know if he used his Spear at all before after killing Sasakibe, so who are we to pinpoint how strong that new attack was?

Quilge used weaker arrows against Loly and Menoly, same could possibly apply to Driscroll. And did attacks get stronger or does he get stronger? Is there another translation for it?

Ryujin Jakka is the strongest Shikai in G13, what else do you need? It's stronger and more powerful than what most have shown. Discroll isn't an exception, but one of many who would have fallen to Yamamoto's attack.

Driscoll as himself would have died, but if other Stern Ritter survived direct attacks from Ryujin Jakka with some severe wounds, but survived whole nonetheless, why would Driscoll be an exception and die so easily with Blut Vene active? Seeing how confident he was, I doubt the thought of switching to defensive mode crossed his mind.

Of course there is a reason to believe so, he was specially used to fight the strongest member of SS, his Blut was indicated to be strengthened for the invasion, he also had abilities of Juha[or not] that put him on an entire different stage.

Was it ever confirmed that his Blut was strengthened to fight Yamamoto? Royd's only confirmed advantage was Bach's superior mind, memory and experience, which made him literally essentially the same as Bach albeit weaker.

Discroll was clearly listening, since his speech interrupted by Yama himself, so the thunder was not hindering him from hearing what was said. You can imagine it did, but it did not.

I'm not even sure about this bit, because on one hand Driscoll looked as if he was listening, on the other his medallion is still emanating lightning and his beard and clothes are still illuminated.

Him not being worthy: My opinion. He fucked up hugely despite boasting beforehand and losing like fooder.

This is no longer related to "getting surprised".

That's not a huge feat and never would have been after the FKT arc. Anybody putting any stress at all to the G13 had to be capable of killing dozens of fodder shinigami, Hisagi included, he isn't even capable of using Bankai yet and therefor even further afar from using one efficiently.

This is no longer putting any effect on his power.

He had a couple days to train, don't come with that kind of execuse. It's his idiocy that led to him not being able to use it fully. Does anything indicate to the medallions having a need to comunicate with the spirits? Maybe it was Discroll who couldn't fully control it like Bach had mentioned no one else being capable of wielding/controling Shigekuni's Zanka no Tachi like he does. Äs Nödt had used it's power quiet proficient already.

A Bankai must be mastered and requires communication between the spirit and the Shinigami. A stolen Zanpakuto spirit wouldn't take being forced into a medallion and used against its will too kindly. And As Nodt didn't use it's power proficiently, just the raw power of the hundred million blades, just like Driscoll used the bare lightning.

---------- Post added at 05:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:48 PM ----------

A Unohana who would have very likely slaughtered a lot of SternRitter easily herself

How would you know? This is straying into A > B > C territory. She would certainly be useful in the battlefield, with her 8000 sword styles and flows, high agility and alleged speed, high Kido knowledge and the ability to heal mortal wounds such as a stab in the neck almost instantaneously, but how would she fare against a SR actually fighting seriously?

that's the entire point of her being so sad about Shigekuni's decision to hold her back.

This Unohana is different from her old murderous self. She seemed sad because of all the people that died, including Yamamoto, and disapproved of Kirinji's comment about of all the people dying.

Kenpachi's fulll strength is just that much higher than everybody else

Strength? And how is pure strength going to help? Don't take it out of context. Unohana, the sword expert and master of all styles was tasked to train Kenpachi, a berserk style swordman, and they engaged in a pure sword fight. Take away Kido, Shunpo, reiatsu and other things, Zanpakuto's even, and leave raw body speed, agility, body strength and reaction time, it's all that matters here. Unohana was easily overpowering Kenpachi because he left so many openings and was so slow to react. Look at how Unohana said that his old self didn't allow her to use cheap tricks, how she commented that Kenpachi was only using one hand in battle, and how Kenpachi said that he had to focus, and that he was starting to react to her sword out of reflex and not on purpose. Kenpachi being "stronger" than Unohana means that he's the superior swordsman.

Of what use is his "strength superior to everybody else" if he can't reach far away opponents? Or counter an attack? Or use his mind? Or giving the enemy a chance? However, if he becomes such a good fighter that he won't give any opening and will do his best to kill his opponent, then he will be more dangerous, regardless of his strength. It's why Aizen was so dangerous, even without Kyoka Suigetsu, a non destructive power, he always knew when or how to strike or defend.

she had to hold back risking so many lifes despite being capable of doing so much herself.

The entire 4th Squad was ordered to stand by, because you know, the countless injured?

[Schabrak]

Back at you. Why are you changing my point? Most people who are meant to die or fall in battle receive grave injuries, Kenpachi keeps getting cut in the chest or stabbed in the gut. Compare to others who get nearly cut in half or stabbed in the chest. The only case where he hasn't been as lucky is against Unohana.

Sure, keep acting stupid. The mustache guy used Vollstandig FOR A SECOND, and it was enough to escape getting cut in half and shoot Shunsui close enough to take both his right ear and eye, as well as leaving a big scar on his temple. He didn't "fight" Vollstandig, he was attacked by a user and it was enough to lose part of his face, even when the shot missed. I don't ignore anything, you keep ignoring the details as if you were above them, or me, as you were so quick to attack me without putting any thought in your claim.

The manga is the true primary source. The databooks are secondary source and more often than not written based on the manga. There's very few actual new information in them. And on top of that, those battle stats are vague and hardly representative of the proven feats from different characters. They only way I could find them somewhat true would be if every character stat had an individual scale, and that already is unreliable.

This is baseless and also ignoring details. During the Arrancar Arc only two new Bankai were shown, and both were used against very strong and dangerous opponents, being Barragan who was literally impossible to approach or attack and WonderWeiss, who was strong enough to take Yamamoto head on in a fist fight. Neither Shunsui or Ukitake had to face them or somebody as dangerous, Shunsui had to wait until Starrk got rid of his guns and wolves.

I'm just repeating what you are saying. There's no reason to "rank" captains, because there's no reason to believe anybody to be overall better than another, unless it comes to specific skills. Any captain should be able to defeat another depending on the circumstances.

And how does this put them in a different tier? Their abilities are better used to evade and counter, not for direct attack, which was especially handy when fighting Yamamoto, but that doesn't make them superior against everybody else. If they were forced to fight head on against an opponent that is better suited to fight head on their abilities would lose their advantage.
Yamamoto complimented Shunsui and directly compared them both to having grown since the Shinigami Academy ways. By the way, Shunsui also got easily trashed by Aizen, and he didn't even try to fight him head on, so it's not like your claim proves your point in this regard.

His role is that of an tank, always was, always will be. He will be hard to take down with brutal strength at the same time. Seems like someone can actually be that kind of a person.

The fight took a couple of minutes at least, probably around a quarter hour with only a couple of panels shown, one scene containing him use Vollständig. Why should this be the only usage of it? It doesn't make sense. Keep deluding yourself that you know it all, you don't, you have no way of knowing.

And so it's still source directly influenced by Kubo himself. Get over it, you keep repeating the descriptions of databooks again and again. Stop doing so please. Fact is we always knew that there is some big secret behind Unohana because of them, one that moves the plot of Kenpachi right now. See, they can be very important. Maybe Kubo never had intended to make Yamamoto show off his muscle in the arancar arc, therefor kept Yamamotos stat so low, easily explained. The rest is quiet accurate too, don't care if you agree with that or not.

Yeah that's Kubo putting them in situations where they could win with Shikai, we both know that. So thanks for proving my point that the senior captains bankai are kept secret for a later moment. Yamamoto was special of course due to his death causing a change within the Gotei 13, just as Sasakibe's was due to his relationship with Shigekuni and role in the manga.

Why should they? Give me a damn reason why all captains should be capable of deafeating each other. Someone like Unohana is, now was clearly far above Zaraki and likely andybody else but a couple of captains. It's a clear pattern that older captains like Yoruichi, Ukitake, Koryaku, Unohana,and Hirako not showing their bankai.

Their overall high stats put them above. In a fight without special shikai they should have the upper hand, that's my reasoning, a logical one at that.
You can think that Yamamoto only meant that time, I think otherwise. Helps me, of course it doesn't help your stance, so that's why you disagree with me.
Hahaha, oh my. Of course Shunsui was trashed, he had no chance due to the illusion, just like Unohana has hinted to have no chance. Nobody that has seen Aizen's shikai had much of a chance. That's the entire point and even Ichigo would have none, had he not cheated himself into another being for that short while.

Kay3795: "...& as a result of that many of them got killed in the most stupidest way possible."
Me: "Discroll and those other three are "many" now, it's a "few"."
Torran: "Driscoll, those other three, another three, and another one. That's half of those 16."
Me: "Those three and another three? Which exactly? Since only the Mohawk one was shown alive, we should asume that the rest is dead? Oo"
Torran: "Strawman. It was about defeats and deaths combined."
Me: "And no again. Doesn't look like we are talking about defeats here at all."
So it looks like halfway through you aimed your post at Kay despite originally replying to me.

Hm... read it once again please. I replied to that passage of his, so that's my reply to him about that exactly that topic. If doesn't matter what you had discussed with him before, please understand that.

Bach was hurt severely (and don't tell me his right arm was merely scratched, it looks as if it was used to polish a granite wall) by a half-assed Getsuga Tenshou only a fraction of what he's capable of doing now. Ichigo was hurt and exhausted, his performance suffered from it.

You can't remember even though it clearly happened? Ichigo was nearly blitzed by Quilge even though he was fast enough to counter the FLASH GOD whilst butt naked.

I won't believe anything I know nothing about. It takes some serious power to cut such a powerful Zanpakuto in half, so there can be another reason besides "strength", which is Haschwald becoming stronger if Bach is in danger, which could explain why he's so close all the time. It's just a guess if you didn't notice.

Apart from the already provided explanation, Shunsui literally was never shown fighting. It was always him standing around, same with Mustacho, as if they were waiting for somebody.

And they can't be used as substantial evidence to support the claim that "Kenpachi is strong because he killed three SR while the rest didn't, so he must be stronger".

Quilge used weaker arrows against Loly and Menoly, same could possibly apply to Driscroll. And did attacks get stronger or does he get stronger? Is there another translation for it?

Driscoll as himself would have died, but if other Stern Ritter survived direct attacks from Ryujin Jakka with some severe wounds, but survived whole nonetheless, why would Driscoll be an exception and die so easily with Blut Vene active? Seeing how confident he was, I doubt the thought of switching to defensive mode crossed his mind.

Was it ever confirmed that his Blut was strengthened to fight Yamamoto? Royd's only confirmed advantage was Bach's superior mind, memory and experience, which made him literally essentially the same as Bach albeit weaker.

I'm not even sure about this bit, because on one hand Driscoll looked as if he was listening, on the other his medallion is still emanating lightning and his beard and clothes are still illuminated.

This is no longer related to "getting surprised".

This is no longer putting any effect on his power.

A Bankai must be mastered and requires communication between the spirit and the Shinigami. A stolen Zanpakuto spirit wouldn't take being forced into a medallion and used against its will too kindly. And As Nodt didn't use it's power proficiently, just the raw power of the hundred million blades, just like Driscoll used the bare lightning.

That's still not clear fact supporting that Ichigo would whop Bach's ass.

Maybe because Quilge is not Ishida and Vollständig is Letzt Stil? You see me talking about Ishida, so why are you returning with Quilge??? Oo

Actually Haschwald acts like a squire, a faithful servant, so of course he would stay near him. Who is to say there aren't any royals within the Quincy themself, that's another option, sounding more possible than yours.

Yeah, they were just standing around looking at each other, waiting for minutes to clash with each other than stop atain. That's so ridiculous, what the hell are you thinking writing such scenario?

Why shouldn't I be able to? He achieved something that none other than the CC could, that means he's better at killing them than they were. It's a damn unmovable fact, no matter under what circumstances it happened.

Could be could not, the scene indicates otherwise. Why would he and not his ability get stronger? That's the point of those letter representing their powers.

With Discroll it was an direct hot on his body, the group attack on Shigekuni seemed to be an Area of Effect attacks, so likely no direct hit included, they were likely overhelmed by the explosion of fire. Your doubt doesn't stop that from being a possiblity.

I wouldn't mention it as "indicated" if there was a confirmation now. You didn't bring anything new to the table.


I would like to have the opinion of other members on this topic please.

What's stopping him from being suprised and hardening himself at the same time? An elite warrior should have been capable of doing that.

Point being?

So if it wouldn't take it to kindly, why would it every? We don't even know if Quincy are capable of communicating with the spirits, especially since those were created/manipulated into such a form by the shinigami themself.

How would you know? This is straying into A > B > C territory. She would certainly be useful in the battlefield, with her 8000 sword styles and flows, high agility and alleged speed, high Kido knowledge and the ability to heal mortal wounds such as a stab in the neck almost instantaneously, but how would she fare against a SR actually fighting seriously?

Strength? And how is pure strength going to help?....

The entire 4th Squad was ordered to stand by, because you know, the countless injured?

Looks like we will probably never know. I asume she would have a bigger effect on the battlefield than anybody else, since Yamamoto sadly only came to fight Discroll before facing the Bach copy.

Strength, power, his capability at fighting if you like.

Ture dat, it's getting late.


Would you be so kind and answer to these too?

There were some shocking, but losable shinigami like Kira, all captains but Genryuusai dead, Byakuya nearly, Zaraki plot driven healed again. A devastating blow was thrown onto Soul Society and Bach's goal to elicit the Royal Guards fulfilled. If the plot allows them to shine or live in the future, I'm all for it, why not.

I agree.

I agree with the first part, but new plot development has shown that Kenpachi's near losses had an huge meaning for his ccurent change which will make him one of the most important characters for the future. He had to lose against someone strong and this fight was perfect for that, so Kubo wouldn't have to create a news setting/stage with another fight aside from Yamamoto, Byakuya and Koryaku. There was clearly no need to expand that story part any longer.

Yeah that's true, but he still killed more than anybody else. :P

[M3J]

It's like Dragon Ball Z? LIKE DBZ? LIKE DBZ!?!?

YES IT IS, YES IT IS>

.Since you think It's "power lvls" what do you think would happen to Yukio (fullbringer) if he fought Byakuya, Toshiro & Zaraki at the sametime when they are already trapped in a different plane in his pocket dimension. Surely they would be able to all escape by FORCING the dimension to break according to you correct?

Sure, why not?

.Since you think it's power lvls, why did Ichigo hurt Zaraki in his first encounter (before connecting with Zangestu to receive a boost). Why was he able to cut him with his sharp blade?

He managed to increase his power level (reiatsu) high enough to damage Zaraki.

.Since you think it's power lvls based, why is it so that Ichigo (despite having roughly the same "power lvl" as Aizen) wasn't able to crush Grimmjow like Aizen did when he clash with Grimmjow?

Did he really have the same power level as Aizen at the time? As far as I recall, it was much lower, and that he had to increase his power level by using hollow to fight Grimmjow or at least, not be killed. Or was that Ulquiorrra? Either way, power level matters. At least, most of the fights aren't necessarily about strategies, it's about strength or benefit.

Ichigo has the benefit of plot armor, so he can get stronger when it counts, as seen when he fought Ulqiorra, Aizen, and few others.

.Since you think it's power lvls, why did Tousen lose against Komamura & Hisagi despite having the greater "power lvl"?

Because he wanted to lose? Because Komamura and Hisagi together had greater power level? Because Tousen's power level was greatly overrated?

.Since you think it's power lvls, do you think Zommari would lose against Zaraki because Zaraki defeated Nnoitra who had more "power lvl" than Zommari?

Yes. Majority of the characters would lose to Zaraki, from the looks of it.

There are many parts I want to address concerning your post BUT FIRST, I will like a solid factual explanation to the questions above because at this point I'm puzzled as to how you think it's power lvl (reiatsu) based.

If you don't understand by now (not from my explanations), then you won't ever understand, and I'm not wasting my time explaining to you. Bad enough that I had to get into a long debate with Torran about a manga that's not worth debating with long posts where the opponent uses bad logic and attacks others for it, I don't wanna get into comparing DBZ with Bleach. Waste of time.



Anyway, as to how Kenpachi got beat? From the recent developments, it's assumed he got beaten because he was holding back, and he probably held back too much.

However, I just say Judas was just that much stronger or had the specific ability required to deal with Kenpachi. THis is probably the only fight where Kenpachi lost fair and square.

Ichigo won due to plot and Kenpachi holding back, and Kenpachi had difficulty in most of his fights because he was holding back. According to the manga, that is. If he went more all out, then Ichigo would have lost already, and the only person that could stop Kenpachi would be Judas Bach. Not counting Yamamoto, that is. Dunno if he really could or couldn't.

[0Xellos]

Because he wanted to lose? Because Komamura and Hisagi together had greater power level? Because Tousen's power level was greatly overrated?

Except it's not. Tousen was trashing Komamura in a battle of brute force, the battle aspect his bankai is mostly about. He lost due to plot reasons, and the Tousen miniplot (how he hated SS for being screwed up as it was) reasons.

[devstauk]

Kenpachi lost due to him thinking he was fighting Bach, fact is his 'shackles' held him back as fair as Lyod's power, but where Zaraki thought with every feeling in his body he was fighting the top-dog. His shackles basically acted like shoes laces tied together.

[kkck]

Well, kenpachi does shackle himself when he fights however it does seem like there is a limit to how strong he can become when faced with someone at a level higher than the power he can release. He adapts to whoever he fights but there is a limit to how much power he can seal or release when fighting someone weaker or stronger. If he adapted immediately then there would be no need for unohana to go as far as she did, all it would take for kenpachi to fight at full strength is someone to match him.

[NoOneInParticular]

Zaraki may or may not have been able to match up to Royd given time (I think not personally, given Royd's decent performance against Zanka no Tachi), but apparently Royd did what Ichigo did, and what Tousen and Nnoitra both failed to do - finish Kenpachi off quickly. Ichigo drew with Kenpachi because they ended the fight suddenly with one big strike. Tousen took his time trying to punish him, allowing him to get used to dodging any fatal blows, and Nnoitra spent time savouring the fight as much as Zaraki. Royd didn't waste time letting Zaraki 'get used' to his level, he just swiftly curbstomped him. At least that's how it looks, since the fight was off-panel it's not quite clear how it went down. Zaraki did have time to take his eyepatch off, but he did the same againt Nnoitra, and it still took him time to climb to Nnoitra's level.

[M3J]

Considering Kenpachi was defeated quickly, I'm not sure if fighting at full power would have helped or made a difference. Even when he was holding back, he never lost so quickly or without inflicting some kind of damage on his enemies. Maybe he'd have done better, but he'd have still lost even if he used full power.

[Hakuteiken]

Considering Kenpachi was defeated quickly, I'm not sure if fighting at full power would have helped or made a difference. Even when he was holding back, he never lost so quickly or without inflicting some kind of damage on his enemies. Maybe he'd have done better, but he'd have still lost even if he used full power.

Well, it could indeed matter in the big picture, though. If he fought at full power, it would probably turn into a 2v2 fight with Captain-Commander arriving and Haschwald joining in, perhaps delaying Zanka no Tachi and not exhausting Captain-Commander's power early on in the fight.

[NoOneInParticular]

Considering Kenpachi was defeated quickly, I'm not sure if fighting at full power would have helped or made a difference. Even when he was holding back, he never lost so quickly or without inflicting some kind of damage on his enemies. Maybe he'd have done better, but he'd have still lost even if he used full power.

I agree, I don't think Kenpachi would have been capable of mustering the strength to defeat Royd even if the fight was more drawn out. For Unohana to bring him to top form, she had to kill and revive him numerous times. That would demonstrate that there was a limit to how much he could lift the shackles himself without coming to the brink of death. Had the fight dragged on though, he may just have been able to give Royd a bit more of a fight, since he cold apparently release more of his power over time as he showed with Nnoitra. But still, Royd was the stronger of the two, simple as.

[M3J]

Well, it could indeed matter in the big picture, though. If he fought at full power, it would probably turn into a 2v2 fight with Captain-Commander arriving and Haschwald joining in, perhaps delaying Zanka no Tachi and not exhausting Captain-Commander's power early on in the fight.

But with how easily he was beaten, I'm doubting whether shackles fully coming off would have mattered. If anything, Bach or Royd wouldn't have been at 100%, but I doubt they'd be at less than 95% either, but the fight was off paneled. I'm just assuming the difference in strength based on how quick the fight seemed and how Royd or Bach (still not sure if it was real Bach) seemed pretty unharmed.

[Hakuteiken]

But with how easily he was beaten, I'm doubting whether shackles fully coming off would have mattered. If anything, Bach or Royd wouldn't have been at 100%, but I doubt they'd be at less than 95% either, but the fight was off paneled. I'm just assuming the difference in strength based on how quick the fight seemed and how Royd or Bach (still not sure if it was real Bach) seemed pretty unharmed.

That solidified the urging need for Kenpachi to get a power boost. It was the reason why it was off-paneled, at least for me, that is.
I'm not saying he would fight him on equal footing all of a sudden, but he was definitely going to be more relevant, and perhaps a solid match-up for Royd, who was acting like Bach.

[M3J]

I still have doubts about that, or whether power boost could help against someone like Bach. His being a Quincy is probably the main, if not the only, reason why Kenpachi was beaten seemingly effortlessly.