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Kenpachi's fulll strength is just that much higher than everybody else thatFor the sake of the future of SS she had to hold back risking so many lifes despite being capable of doing so much herself.
It's still a feat, disregard it or not.
Last edited by Schabrak; February 04, 2013 at 07:53 PM. Reason: late
The first two are clear enough. The Roar jumped at Kenpachi and cut cut in half, and the flashback panel shows the Roar with an expression as if he wasn't expecting that, very similar to Nnoitra's Fraccion and Giriko.Quote:
I didn't mention the Roar. Loyd becomes Kenpachi in EVERY aspect physically. Kenpachi can't use Blutz, Loyd shouldn't after BECOMING Kenpachi. And even if he had, Blut Vene is far too hard to cut for Kenpachi to have won so easily.Quote:
Back at you. Why are you changing my point? Most people who are meant to die or fall in battle receive grave injuries, Kenpachi keeps getting cut in the chest or stabbed in the gut. Compare to others who get nearly cut in half or stabbed in the chest. The only case where he hasn't been as lucky is against Unohana.Quote:
Yamamoto's praise and words are enough as far as proving they were very skilled as they were young and grew up to be great captains. This is actually a testament of strength, however, proof that they are as strong as you claim them to be? No. That can only be gathered from fights. So long Shunsui has proven to be a GOOD fighter, who knows what he's doing and who will do whatever it takes to win the battle, nothing more nothing less. Ukitake should be equal or close either above or below as long as he's not coughing up a kidney. They both haven't shown to be exceptional at Kido, Shunpo, hand to hand combat, agility, strategy, physical strength or endurance. Good all around, not best.Quote:
You are blatantly ignoring the events and details that led to his victory. I filled almost 10 pages on the Ranking of Captains thread explaining in detail why. I'm not doing it again. But I'm going to tell you that severely weakening Starrk by surprise before fighting him directly does not prove Shunsui to be superior to anyone, and beating him with just Shikai is just irrelevant.Quote:
Sure, keep acting stupid. The mustache guy used Vollstandig FOR A SECOND, and it was enough to escape getting cut in half and shoot Shunsui close enough to take both his right ear and eye, as well as leaving a big scar on his temple. He didn't "fight" Vollstandig, he was attacked by a user and it was enough to lose part of his face, even when the shot missed. I don't ignore anything, you keep ignoring the details as if you were above them, or me, as you were so quick to attack me without putting any thought in your claim.Quote:
The manga is the true primary source. The databooks are secondary source and more often than not written based on the manga. There's very few actual new information in them. And on top of that, those battle stats are vague and hardly representative of the proven feats from different characters. They only way I could find them somewhat true would be if every character stat had an individual scale, and that already is unreliable.Quote:
This is baseless and also ignoring details. During the Arrancar Arc only two new Bankai were shown, and both were used against very strong and dangerous opponents, being Barragan who was literally impossible to approach or attack and WonderWeiss, who was strong enough to take Yamamoto head on in a fist fight. Neither Shunsui or Ukitake had to face them or somebody as dangerous, Shunsui had to wait until Starrk got rid of his guns and wolves.Quote:
I'm just repeating what you are saying. There's no reason to "rank" captains, because there's no reason to believe anybody to be overall better than another, unless it comes to specific skills. Any captain should be able to defeat another depending on the circumstances.Quote:
And how does this put them in a different tier? Their abilities are better used to evade and counter, not for direct attack, which was especially handy when fighting Yamamoto, but that doesn't make them superior against everybody else. If they were forced to fight head on against an opponent that is better suited to fight head on their abilities would lose their advantage.Quote:
Yamamoto complimented Shunsui and directly compared them both to having grown since the Shinigami Academy ways. By the way, Shunsui also got easily trashed by Aizen, and he didn't even try to fight him head on, so it's not like your claim proves your point in this regard.
But it wouldn't last forever, not with a human or spiritual limit.Quote:
This was my original statement:Quote:
"Driscoll, those other three, another three, and another one. That's half of those 16."
To which you responded with:
"Those three and another three? Which exactly? Since only the Mohawk one was shown alive, we should asume that the rest is dead? Oo"
And I replied with:
"Strawman. It was about defeats and deaths combined."
Then you said:
"And no again. Doesn't look like we are talking about defeats here at all."
So it looks like halfway through you aimed your post at Kay despite originally replying to me.
Bach was hurt severely (and don't tell me his right arm was merely scratched, it looks as if it was used to polish a granite wall) by a half-assed Getsuga Tenshou only a fraction of what he's capable of doing now. Ichigo was hurt and exhausted, his performance suffered from it.Quote:
You can't remember even though it clearly happened? Ichigo was nearly blitzed by Quilge even though he was fast enough to counter the FLASH GOD whilst butt naked.Quote:
I won't believe anything I know nothing about. It takes some serious power to cut such a powerful Zanpakuto in half, so there can be another reason besides "strength", which is Haschwald becoming stronger if Bach is in danger, which could explain why he's so close all the time. It's just a guess if you didn't notice.Quote:
Apart from the already provided explanation, Shunsui literally was never shown fighting. It was always him standing around, same with Mustacho, as if they were waiting for somebody. Only exceptions were the Vollstandig bit, the cut in the chest and the multiple shots. The only opportunity to use Vollstandig would be those brief moments in between. By the way, Mustacho kind of lost his morale boost as soon as he saw Yamamoto's power.Quote:
And they can't be used as substantial evidence to support the claim that "Kenpachi is strong because he killed three SR while the rest didn't, so he must be stronger".Quote:
Quilge used weaker arrows against Loly and Menoly, same could possibly apply to Driscroll. And did attacks get stronger or does he get stronger? Is there another translation for it?Quote:
Driscoll as himself would have died, but if other Stern Ritter survived direct attacks from Ryujin Jakka with some severe wounds, but survived whole nonetheless, why would Driscoll be an exception and die so easily with Blut Vene active? Seeing how confident he was, I doubt the thought of switching to defensive mode crossed his mind.Quote:
Was it ever confirmed that his Blut was strengthened to fight Yamamoto? Royd's only confirmed advantage was Bach's superior mind, memory and experience, which made him literally essentially the same as Bach albeit weaker.Quote:
I'm not even sure about this bit, because on one hand Driscoll looked as if he was listening, on the other his medallion is still emanating lightning and his beard and clothes are still illuminated.Quote:
This is no longer related to "getting surprised".Quote:
This is no longer putting any effect on his power.Quote:
A Bankai must be mastered and requires communication between the spirit and the Shinigami. A stolen Zanpakuto spirit wouldn't take being forced into a medallion and used against its will too kindly. And As Nodt didn't use it's power proficiently, just the raw power of the hundred million blades, just like Driscoll used the bare lightning.Quote:
---------- Post added at 05:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:48 PM ----------
Of what use is his "strength superior to everybody else" if he can't reach far away opponents? Or counter an attack? Or use his mind? Or giving the enemy a chance? However, if he becomes such a good fighter that he won't give any opening and will do his best to kill his opponent, then he will be more dangerous, regardless of his strength. It's why Aizen was so dangerous, even without Kyoka Suigetsu, a non destructive power, he always knew when or how to strike or defend.
The fight took a couple of minutes at least, probably around a quarter hour with only a couple of panels shown, one scene containing him use Vollständig. Why should this be the only usage of it? It doesn't make sense. Keep deluding yourself that you know it all, you don't, you have no way of knowing.
And so it's still source directly influenced by Kubo himself. Get over it, you keep repeating the descriptions of databooks again and again. Stop doing so please. Fact is we always knew that there is some big secret behind Unohana because of them, one that moves the plot of Kenpachi right now. See, they can be very important. Maybe Kubo never had intended to make Yamamoto show off his muscle in the arancar arc, therefor kept Yamamotos stat so low, easily explained. The rest is quiet accurate too, don't care if you agree with that or not.
Yeah that's Kubo putting them in situations where they could win with Shikai, we both know that. So thanks for proving my point that the senior captains bankai are kept secret for a later moment. Yamamoto was special of course due to his death causing a change within the Gotei 13, just as Sasakibe's was due to his relationship with Shigekuni and role in the manga.
Why should they? Give me a damn reason why all captains should be capable of deafeating each other. Someone like Unohana is, now was clearly far above Zaraki and likely andybody else but a couple of captains. It's a clear pattern that older captains like Yoruichi, Ukitake, Koryaku, Unohana,and Hirako not showing their bankai.
Their overall high stats put them above. In a fight without special shikai they should have the upper hand, that's my reasoning, a logical one at that.
You can think that Yamamoto only meant that time, I think otherwise. Helps me, of course it doesn't help your stance, so that's why you disagree with me.
Hahaha, oh my. Of course Shunsui was trashed, he had no chance due to the illusion, just like Unohana has hinted to have no chance. Nobody that has seen Aizen's shikai had much of a chance. That's the entire point and even Ichigo would have none, had he not cheated himself into another being for that short while.
Hm... read it once again please. I replied to that passage of his, so that's my reply to him about that exactly that topic. If doesn't matter what you had discussed with him before, please understand that.Quote:
Maybe because Quilge is not Ishida and Vollständig is Letzt Stil? You see me talking about Ishida, so why are you returning with Quilge??? Oo
Actually Haschwald acts like a squire, a faithful servant, so of course he would stay near him. Who is to say there aren't any royals within the Quincy themself, that's another option, sounding more possible than yours.
Yeah, they were just standing around looking at each other, waiting for minutes to clash with each other than stop atain. That's so ridiculous, what the hell are you thinking writing such scenario?
Why shouldn't I be able to? He achieved something that none other than the CC could, that means he's better at killing them than they were. It's a damn unmovable fact, no matter under what circumstances it happened.
Could be could not, the scene indicates otherwise. Why would he and not his ability get stronger? That's the point of those letter representing their powers.
With Discroll it was an direct hot on his body, the group attack on Shigekuni seemed to be an Area of Effect attacks, so likely no direct hit included, they were likely overhelmed by the explosion of fire. Your doubt doesn't stop that from being a possiblity.
I wouldn't mention it as "indicated" if there was a confirmation now. You didn't bring anything new to the table.
I would like to have the opinion of other members on this topic please.
What's stopping him from being suprised and hardening himself at the same time? An elite warrior should have been capable of doing that.
So if it wouldn't take it to kindly, why would it every? We don't even know if Quincy are capable of communicating with the spirits, especially since those were created/manipulated into such a form by the shinigami themself.
Strength, power, his capability at fighting if you like.
Ture dat, it's getting late.
Would you be so kind and answer to these too?
Last edited by Schabrak; February 04, 2013 at 07:56 PM.
Sure, why not?Quote:
He managed to increase his power level (reiatsu) high enough to damage Zaraki.Quote:
Did he really have the same power level as Aizen at the time? As far as I recall, it was much lower, and that he had to increase his power level by using hollow to fight Grimmjow or at least, not be killed. Or was that Ulquiorrra? Either way, power level matters. At least, most of the fights aren't necessarily about strategies, it's about strength or benefit.Quote:
Ichigo has the benefit of plot armor, so he can get stronger when it counts, as seen when he fought Ulqiorra, Aizen, and few others.
Because he wanted to lose? Because Komamura and Hisagi together had greater power level? Because Tousen's power level was greatly overrated?Quote:
Yes. Majority of the characters would lose to Zaraki, from the looks of it.Quote:
If you don't understand by now (not from my explanations), then you won't ever understand, and I'm not wasting my time explaining to you. Bad enough that I had to get into a long debate with Torran about a manga that's not worth debating with long posts where the opponent uses bad logic and attacks others for it, I don't wanna get into comparing DBZ with Bleach. Waste of time.Quote:
Anyway, as to how Kenpachi got beat? From the recent developments, it's assumed he got beaten because he was holding back, and he probably held back too much.
However, I just say Judas was just that much stronger or had the specific ability required to deal with Kenpachi. THis is probably the only fight where Kenpachi lost fair and square.
Ichigo won due to plot and Kenpachi holding back, and Kenpachi had difficulty in most of his fights because he was holding back. According to the manga, that is. If he went more all out, then Ichigo would have lost already, and the only person that could stop Kenpachi would be Judas Bach. Not counting Yamamoto, that is. Dunno if he really could or couldn't.
Kenpachi lost due to him thinking he was fighting Bach, fact is his 'shackles' held him back as fair as Lyod's power, but where Zaraki thought with every feeling in his body he was fighting the top-dog. His shackles basically acted like shoes laces tied together.
Well, kenpachi does shackle himself when he fights however it does seem like there is a limit to how strong he can become when faced with someone at a level higher than the power he can release. He adapts to whoever he fights but there is a limit to how much power he can seal or release when fighting someone weaker or stronger. If he adapted immediately then there would be no need for unohana to go as far as she did, all it would take for kenpachi to fight at full strength is someone to match him.
Zaraki may or may not have been able to match up to Royd given time (I think not personally, given Royd's decent performance against Zanka no Tachi), but apparently Royd did what Ichigo did, and what Tousen and Nnoitra both failed to do - finish Kenpachi off quickly. Ichigo drew with Kenpachi because they ended the fight suddenly with one big strike. Tousen took his time trying to punish him, allowing him to get used to dodging any fatal blows, and Nnoitra spent time savouring the fight as much as Zaraki. Royd didn't waste time letting Zaraki 'get used' to his level, he just swiftly curbstomped him. At least that's how it looks, since the fight was off-panel it's not quite clear how it went down. Zaraki did have time to take his eyepatch off, but he did the same againt Nnoitra, and it still took him time to climb to Nnoitra's level.
Considering Kenpachi was defeated quickly, I'm not sure if fighting at full power would have helped or made a difference. Even when he was holding back, he never lost so quickly or without inflicting some kind of damage on his enemies. Maybe he'd have done better, but he'd have still lost even if he used full power.
I'm not saying he would fight him on equal footing all of a sudden, but he was definitely going to be more relevant, and perhaps a solid match-up for Royd, who was acting like Bach.
I still have doubts about that, or whether power boost could help against someone like Bach. His being a Quincy is probably the main, if not the only, reason why Kenpachi was beaten seemingly effortlessly.