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Thread: Obito should have been left dead by the author.

  1. #16
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member ForMotherRussia's Avatar
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    Re: Obito should have been left dead by the author.

    I'm not quite sure what did u expect from this manga. That Sasuke should've been the cause of all the troubles of the ninjaworld? So far the story perfectly fits into the Hatred-Revenge-Hatred concept, showing us how 1 person (war casualty) caused a HUGE backslash on the whole world, how human emotions and love twist into wicked maniacal hatred of the whole world

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Obito should have been left dead by the author.

    I just can't accept the fact that these all started because of a boy's childhood crush dies. Kishi could have thought of a better reason for Obito's turning to evil.
    We've seen a lot of losses in this manga. If you would compare those to Obito's loss, it's like Obito only lost a lollypop. And it's not even connected to the main foundations of this manga.

    Here are what I think the foundations of the story:

    1. Ninjutsu is the theme.
    2. Ninjutsus came from the SO6P.
    3. The SO6P had two sons.
    4. The two sons became Uchihas and Senjus.
    5. The Uchihas and Senjus had a rivalry.

    Now where would the Kakashi-Obito-Rin fit in? They got no place in the main story. Their story should just be in a filler or a different arc.
    Last edited by llydnarz; October 11, 2012 at 09:11 PM.

  3. #18
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member synapse's Avatar
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    Re: Obito should have been left dead by the author.

    Quote Originally Posted by llydnarz View Post
    I just can't accept the fact that these all started because of a boy's childhood crush dies. Kishi could have thought of a better reason for Obito's turning to evil.
    We've seen a lot of losses in this manga. If you would compare those to Obito's loss, it's like Obito only lost a lollypop. And it's not even connected to the main foundations of this manga.

    Here are what I think the foundations of the story:

    1. Ninjutsu is the theme.
    2. Ninjutsus came from the SO6P.
    3. The SO6P had two sons.
    4. The two sons became Uchihas and Senjus.
    5. The Uchihas and Senjus had a rivalry.

    Now where would the Kakashi-Obito-Rin fit in? They got no place in the main story. Their story should just be in a filler or a different arc.

    Obito would be dead but for Madara. So there lies your answer.

    Madara didn't want to acknowledge the reality where he was the loser to Hashman. Obito has his own problems with reality. Makes perfect sense.

    And Kishi can change focus rapidly. Remember Pain? He was this invincible monster who had killed Jiraiya but then was on his knees giving you-know-what to Naruto.

    And don't underestimate the Orange Hokage ! He might actually melt Obito's motivation with TNJ....

  4. #19
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Obito should have been left dead by the author.

    Madara did save Obito but it wasn't him who turned Obito into Tobi.
    It was because Rin's death in the hands of Kakashi. All along, we were made to believe that this story revolves around the rivalry of Naruto and Sasuke or The Senjus and the Uchihas. Now Kishi is trying to say that this story started because of a simple love triangle.
    And without their love triangle, there'd be no Naruto story.

    It's like Oda of One Piece suddenly revealed that a friend of Roger's once lost a shoe in the sea and that inspired Roger to become a pirate and find that shoe. There's just no connection! I just made this up BTW.

    So I hope Kishi would later reveal another twist that would connect the Rin-Kakashi-Obito incident to the main story.

  5. #20
    SCHWING LORD 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member 3c's Avatar
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    Re: Obito should have been left dead by the author.

    To be fair, the whole Uchiha-Senju plot hasn't been a big part of the series until Sasuke fought Itachi. Until then it has always been about the cycle of hatred even if Kishi never spelled it out until Pain came into the picture. Obito is very much a victim of the cycle of hatred, and is the ebodiment of how said cycle can affect the world.

    I actually meant to create a thread about suffering in regards of the main points of interest, as I do agree with you that Obito comes out low compared to suffering experienced by Naruto, Sasuke, Nagato and Gaara. However I want to wait until Obito's motivations are fully fleshed out, even if I don't think we'll hit many surprises anymore. That being said, putting a price tag on love and betrayal is in reality quite grotesque. If Rin was Obito's "world", then losing her would be as bad for him as losing his entire clan for Sasuke, even if in theory Sasuke's loss was far greater.

    I understand your point about a "simple love triangle" being the catalyst for NARUTO's events seeming rather disappointing. But at the same time I think it's far better than having a cliché static villain like Madara be the catalyst (which he partly still is). Obito's story at least makes the story about humans, and human emotion. However I got to say I've never changed my mind on my preference towards Nagato/Pain as a villain. His story was far more understanding and traumatic, and he fit even better in the shoes of a villain as a victim to the cycle of hatred. Nagato was also more connected to Naruto, which made everything more relatable and interesting. I think Obito lacks in all those departments, which makes him disappointing to some.

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  7. #21
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member jalix's Avatar
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    Re: Obito should have been left dead by the author.

    Quote Originally Posted by 3c View Post
    To be fair, the whole Uchiha-Senju plot hasn't been a big part of the series until Sasuke fought Itachi. Until then it has always been about the cycle of hatred even if Kishi never spelled it out until Pain came into the picture. Obito is very much a victim of the cycle of hatred, and is the ebodiment of how said cycle can affect the world.

    I actually meant to create a thread about suffering in regards of the main points of interest, as I do agree with you that Obito comes out low compared to suffering experienced by Naruto, Sasuke, Nagato and Gaara. However I want to wait until Obito's motivations are fully fleshed out, even if I don't think we'll hit many surprises anymore. That being said, putting a price tag on love and betrayal is in reality quite grotesque. If Rin was Obito's "world", then losing her would be as bad for him as losing his entire clan for Sasuke, even if in theory Sasuke's loss was far greater.

    I understand your point about a "simple love triangle" being the catalyst for NARUTO's events seeming rather disappointing. But at the same time I think it's far better than having a cliché static villain like Madara be the catalyst (which he partly still is). Obito's story at least makes the story about humans, and human emotion. However I got to say I've never changed my mind on my preference towards Nagato/Pain as a villain. His story was far more understanding and traumatic, and he fit even better in the shoes of a villain as a victim to the cycle of hatred. Nagato was also more connected to Naruto, which made everything more relatable and interesting. I think Obito lacks in all those departments, which makes him disappointing to some.
    This kind of got me thinking. In part 1, I never felt like it was Senju vs. Uchiha. I even feel like it's an entirely different story... kids growing up, friends growing apart, etc. A very different type of story. Senju vs. Uchiha was never really a major issue in the manga IMO until Pt. 2... or maybe more specifically the very, very end of Pt 1 where Sasuke and Naruto battle at the VoTE with Madara and Hashirama's statue. Akatuski existed and we didn't know much about them, but looking back I for one probably didn't know the story would turn out anything like it did.

    But I think Kishimoto has an opportunity to do something pretty cool with Madara. He's hinted a few times that he may not be pure evil incarnate. He's been arrogant, belligerant and borderline immature/annoying in his quips to the Kages in that battle. But in other parts of the story I think Kishimoto has shown him to be merciful and perhaps even reserved in different ways. Like... walking away from the village. He returned and challenged Hashirama/attacked it, but what else did he do at that time besides maybe track down the 9 tails? And then with Oonoki... it was interesting to me that Oonoki realized that so long ago when they fought, Madara was holding back. Maybe it was just posturing from Madara, but he did say: "What kind of adult fights seriously with a child?" But even then, it seems like Madara let Oonoki and maybe Muu live. And here we see Obito... maybe Madara didn't have much of a choice and there may be more to the story of Rin, Kakashi, etc. that we haven't gotten to yet. But Madara did heal him, and did let him leave. I think that he will let Obito make the decision himself, though he may have helped paint him somewhat. Kind of like how Obito let Sasuke make the decision after telling him about Itachi.

  8. #22
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Obito should have been left dead by the author.

    Nagato's reason for being a villain was more connected to the theme than Obito's. And even if it wasn't, I guess it's ok because he wasn't a main villain of the main story. He was just a villain in one of the arcs. But Obito or Tobi had been a main villain in the story ever since we found out about the Kyuubi's attack on the leaf. And when we also found out that he helped Itachi in slaughtering the Uchihas and that he was the real leader of Akatsuki, we were even more convinced that he truly is the main villain.
    And now we would find out that the main villain's reason for turning to evil was just this, it's really disappointing.

  9. #23
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    Re: Obito should have been left dead by the author.

    Quote Originally Posted by llydnarz View Post
    I just can't accept the fact that these all started because of a boy's childhood crush dies. Kishi could have thought of a better reason for Obito's turning to evil.
    We've seen a lot of losses in this manga. If you would compare those to Obito's loss, it's like Obito only lost a lollypop. And it's not even connected to the main foundations of this manga.

    Here are what I think the foundations of the story:

    1. Ninjutsu is the theme.
    2. Ninjutsus came from the SO6P.
    3. The SO6P had two sons.
    4. The two sons became Uchihas and Senjus.
    5. The Uchihas and Senjus had a rivalry.

    Now where would the Kakashi-Obito-Rin fit in? They got no place in the main story. Their story should just be in a filler or a different arc.
    Madara is Uchiha, Obito is Uchiha, Kakashi has sharingan from Uchiha. There you go. The whole manga shouldn't be about Senju vs Uchiha. It would be boring and it would be same shit over and over.

  10. #24
    Intl Translator 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner PEDROKUE's Avatar
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    Re: Obito should have been left dead by the author.

    Quote Originally Posted by llydnarz View Post
    In the last few chapters of this manga, have you noticed that Kakashi and Obito seemed to have stolen the show from Naruto and Sasuke?

    Because of the fact that Tobi is Obito, it now seem that this whole manga started because of Kakashi and Obito.
    Because if it wasn't for Obito, the leaf wouldn't be attacked by the nine tails. Kushina and Minato wouldn't have died. Naruto wouldn't be orphaned and he wouldn't carry the nine tails.
    And the Uchihas wouldn't be suspected and they wouldn't want to rebel against the leaf and they wouldn't be massacred.

    Now this is all just because Obito wanted revenge. And the others were just unlucky to be caught in between. Naruto and Sasuke look like just secondary characters now.
    Well, I agree with the title, but, all the stuff, by your logic, is about Madara and Hashirama, and for me, the history stayed perfect like this, Naruto and Sasuke at the End, being Hashirama and Madara...

    And this sensation of yours will go away when Sasuke find Naruto in the War, as Kishimoto said, because since there, the focus will be Naruto x Sasuke Again...

    It's like Jiraya x Orochimaru, the same thing in differences occasions...

  11. #25
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Bajan4eva1's Avatar
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    Re: Obito should have been left dead by the author.

    Good thread. I agree Obito should have been left dead. I had guessed Tobi would be Obito but I had always hoped it wasn't. IMO Obito's story was far more powerful with him dead than alive. Don't get me wrong him being revealed as a villain is very powerful in itself since it affects other characters (Kakashi, Guy, Konoha ninjas), i just think his character was more powerful dead. I mean how many remember the Kakashi gaiden..."Two heroes bearing the Sharingan were born to Konoha. One of them has his name carved on the tombstone." Epic...I mean the kid dies to save his friends..."there is no greater love than he who lays down his life for another." Had he stayed dead his legend would have lived forever, his name would never die. Now that is true immortality. But hey either way I'll keep reading...I'm really interested in his descent into darkness. Hopefully its not as weak as poor Anakin's. *For the record I love Star Wars I just think Anakin turned too easily.*

  12. #26
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Brill's Avatar
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    Re: Obito should have been left dead by the author.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jspot View Post
    Madara had his plans before Obito ever showed up. If it wasn't Obito, it'd be someone else, unless you're saying you wish the entire plot of the manga was something else entirely, in which case—well—I don't know what to tell you.

    Cut out Obito's character and replace it with some other character who lost something precious, and the story still stands up. Just because it happened to be Obito doesn't really change the fact that a character of that kind of importance is going to "steal the show" for a little while, since he has been built up as one of the (if not the) main antagonist of the series.
    Agreed. The OP is upset that an unlikable character is stealing the show from Sasuke who stole the show from Naruto. Kishi is connecting Tobi to Kakashi but the events that transpired, the killing of Naruto's parents, the slaughter of the Uchiha, and the formation of the Akatsuki were done by Tobi regardless of who he was. Kishi wants to humanize Tobi more by making him Obito so you can feed off of Kakashi's emotions and feelings as the climax proceeds.

    Let's face it, if Tobi was ninja X would his revelation mean anything? No, it wouldn't. Kishi had to tie Tobi to someone we knew to make it meaningful. Naruto has no siblings. All of Sasuke's clan is dead except for himself and Obito, and Sakura is so bland and undeveloped that you can't tie Tobi to her. So you goto the next sphere and Kakashi is probably the best candidate to tie Tobi to. So Kishi did and Obito is the new mastermind and now he's establishing the framework to empathize with the mastermind. He's done it with Orochimaru, Pain and now it's Obito's turn. It's Kishi's MO, so sit back and enjoy the ride.

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  14. #27
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Fox666's Avatar
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    Re: Obito should have been left dead by the author.

    It wouldn't be such a problem if "Tobi" actually served to develop Obito's character. He we have been seeing him wearing a mask for over 300 chapters, and it was meaningless.

    The masked man was very smart, extremely skilled and manipulative. He had a vast knowledge about the past, and often speaks like an old person. On top of that, he was brutal and didn't cared about the life of other humans.

    But on reality he was Kakashi's old friend who was angry because his lover died, but he doesn't blame Kakashi for it.
    Quote Originally Posted by IChallengeYou! View Post
    TOBI IS OBITO

    did you say something about timelines?! naruto ate it NOM NOM NOM IT'S GONE.

  15. #28
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member synapse's Avatar
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    Re: Obito should have been left dead by the author.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox666 View Post
    It wouldn't be such a problem if "Tobi" actually served to develop Obito's character. He we have been seeing him wearing a mask for over 300 chapters, and it was meaningless.

    The masked man was very smart, extremely skilled and manipulative. He had a vast knowledge about the past, and often speaks like an old person. On top of that, he was brutal and didn't cared about the life of other humans.

    But on reality he was Kakashi's old friend who was angry because his lover died, but he doesn't blame Kakashi for it.

    Well personality changes are pretty drastic in Naruto (eg. Naruto after 3 years under the tutelage of Jiraiya, who lets face it, was not a very mature tutor)

    Obito learned from Madara who surpasses everyone in skill and experience. But consider Obito's state after Rin's death, he would have basically taken anything Madara told him for granted and not question his advice or worldview. That might have helped him grow faster than most ninja.

  16. #29
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Fox666's Avatar
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    Re: Obito should have been left dead by the author.

    I am not talking about Obito becoming Tobi, but about Tobi being Obito. After his face is revealed, everything about "Tobi" doesn't add anything to his personality.
    Quote Originally Posted by IChallengeYou! View Post
    TOBI IS OBITO

    did you say something about timelines?! naruto ate it NOM NOM NOM IT'S GONE.

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  18. #30
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    Re: Obito should have been left dead by the author.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox666 View Post
    I am not talking about Obito becoming Tobi, but about Tobi being Obito. After his face is revealed, everything about "Tobi" doesn't add anything to his personality.
    Exactly. He had been talking about being Madara, the SO6P, Senjus and Uchihas all along. And now that his identity is revealed, he suddenly became the emo lover who lost his love.

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