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Thread: Tokugawa vs Yukimura

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    Tokugawa vs Yukimura

    Tokugawa vs Yukimura, who do you guys think will be the winner ,give reasons please.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member ashore's Avatar
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    Re: Tokugawa vs Yukimura

    I haven't seen tokugawa play yet. only seen him rally lots of balls. even so , he could be subject to yips. with the current info, tokugawa would seem to lose, unless there's other info about in Puri Pair publication.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member -Ken-'s Avatar
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    Re: Tokugawa vs Yukimura

    Quote Originally Posted by ashore View Post
    I haven't seen tokugawa play yet. only seen him rally lots of balls. even so , he could be subject to yips. with the current info, tokugawa would seem to lose, unless there's other info about in Puri Pair publication.
    Actually, from what we know now, Tokugawa seems to win. Echizen > Yukimura, and Tokugawa > Echizen. Yes, we don't see the match, and that's why from result alone, and not any assumption that PoP can't be use freely or anything, Tokugawa would win this match.
    Most of the thing I post is probably assumption if it's not a fact that I support using some evidence from the manga.

    If you knows you're on my ignore list and you quote my post, there's high chance I would ignore you. Or answer you and not look at your response.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member ashore's Avatar
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    Re: Tokugawa vs Yukimura

    what about illusionary yips?

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    Re: Tokugawa vs Yukimura

    Quote Originally Posted by ashore View Post
    what about illusionary yips?
    PoP raped Yukimura before. Echizen intentionally slow down the ball so Yukimura can play. And there's nothing that show Echizen fasten the ball back to the original pace.

    Also, Remember that PoP Echizen pretty 6-0 Yukimura. And 6-4 the 4 ONLY came from score that Yukimura built before. They're on entirely different scale. It's really a far gap. It depends if you think the new Yips improve him that much or not.
    Most of the thing I post is probably assumption if it's not a fact that I support using some evidence from the manga.

    If you knows you're on my ignore list and you quote my post, there's high chance I would ignore you. Or answer you and not look at your response.

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    Re: Tokugawa vs Yukimura

    Yukimura eventually was able to adjust to the enhanced stats provided by PoP. That's why Ryoma used Samurai Drive on the final shot because it's implied that Yukimura is close to being able to adjust. He probably still can't beat PoP (being able to adjust doesn't mean you can beat it) but it's not going to be like the beginning where he can't even see the ball, otherwise there was no reason for Ryoma to use an experimental new move.

    That said Tokugawa's base stats must be ridiculously good and I really don't see a 10-baller being affected by Yukimura's technique.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member LetalHawk's Avatar
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    Re: Tokugawa vs Yukimura

    No, Tokugawa won't be affected by Yips as he is able to hit 10 balls and probably has incredible base stats, if he's the man that will defeat Byodouin. Also, Tokugawa seems to make the same effect as Yukimura, remember in the first chapters when Kirihara asked him if he was strong and all, and he was paralyzed and couldn't even move, that's similar to Yips in a way.

    But I don't think Yukimura needs to win with Yips, he could rally with Tokugawa that's for sure, and Echizen>Yukimura when Echizen played Tokugawa? Echizen only was better than Yukimura when he used POP, but in that moment, he was the same as National Finals Echizen without POP. Right now, Echizen is way ahead as he can hit 10 balls and probably his entire game and skills boosted, as he is the loser that got the most hype and upgrades I think.

    So I don't see clearly who would win here.

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    Re: Tokugawa vs Yukimura

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    PoP raped Yukimura before. Echizen intentionally slow down the ball so Yukimura can play. And there's nothing that show Echizen fasten the ball back to the original pace.

    Also, Remember that PoP Echizen pretty 6-0 Yukimura. And 6-4 the 4 ONLY came from score that Yukimura built before. They're on entirely different scale. It's really a far gap. It depends if you think the new Yips improve him that much or not.
    That's TMnK Ryoma.
    It all depends if Ryoma can use TMnK at will yet.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member ashore's Avatar
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    Re: Tokugawa vs Yukimura

    Quote Originally Posted by LetalHawk View Post
    No, Tokugawa won't be affected by Yips as he is able to hit 10 balls and probably has incredible base stats, if he's the man that will defeat Byodouin. Also, Tokugawa seems to make the same effect as Yukimura, remember in the first chapters when Kirihara asked him if he was strong and all, and he was paralyzed and couldn't even move, that's similar to Yips in a way.

    But I don't think Yukimura needs to win with Yips, he could rally with Tokugawa that's for sure, and Echizen>Yukimura when Echizen played Tokugawa? Echizen only was better than Yukimura when he used POP, but in that moment, he was the same as National Finals Echizen without POP. Right now, Echizen is way ahead as he can hit 10 balls and probably his entire game and skills boosted, as he is the loser that got the most hype and upgrades I think.

    So I don't see clearly who would win here.
    hitting 1 billion balls doesn't mean you wont be affected by yips.
    I'm not sure what your logic is. in the yips state you lost your senses and are unable to play. even if you psychologically unaffected by it. you'd have a hard time reacting to hitting a ball where you dont know where it is coming from.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member LetalHawk's Avatar
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    Re: Tokugawa vs Yukimura

    Quote Originally Posted by ashore View Post
    hitting 1 billion balls doesn't mean you wont be affected by yips.
    I'm not sure what your logic is. in the yips state you lost your senses and are unable to play. even if you psychologically unaffected by it. you'd have a hard time reacting to hitting a ball where you dont know where it is coming from.
    His base stats are probably higher than Yukimura's, if he scores points against him, that prevents Yuki from rallying and, due to that, prevents that he sets Yips in.

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    Re: Tokugawa vs Yukimura

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    That's TMnK Ryoma.
    It all depends if Ryoma can use TMnK at will yet.
    Yeah. But we don't know that. And the only real match that he would have use it was offscreen. I really see no reason to assume that he cannot do so until we saw his next match that he NEED to use it and doesn't use it at least.
    Most of the thing I post is probably assumption if it's not a fact that I support using some evidence from the manga.

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    Re: Tokugawa vs Yukimura

    Even if you want to talk logic (which really has no place in POT), the ability to hit 10 balls at once is about as good a display of rallying ability as it gets so why would anyone who has such superior rally abilities somehow get affected by yips which comes from rallying?

    There's a clear character tier going on. Shuuji, for example, seems to expect Tezuka to have TMnY (while other high schoolers thought Tezuka was good prior to TMnY, he said that's not even his true potential) so you'd have to assume TMnY isn't anything special to him, even though we haven't actually see anything from him. Tokugawa is roughly his tier (Shuuji talks to him like an equal), so you're talking about two guys who aren't impressed by TMnY and yet you think Tokugawa (or Shuuji) is going to just lose to yips?

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    Re: Tokugawa vs Yukimura

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    Yeah. But we don't know that. And the only real match that he would have use it was offscreen. I really see no reason to assume that he cannot do so until we saw his next match that he NEED to use it and doesn't use it at least.
    Got his ass-kicked by Tokugawa. We didn't see or hear of any mention of Yips.
    Why wouldn't Ryoma bring TMnK out?

    Don't try and say he didn't take the match seriously since examples like his match against Kintaro or Kirihara shows that Ryoma once he starts a match, he goes all-out and gives it his all.
    I reckon if he could have pulled out TMnK, he would have.

    ---------- Post added at 02:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:59 PM ----------

    Unless you're assuming Tokugawa comfortably crushed TnKn offscreen.
    Which would make Tokugawa >>> Tezuka.

    Now just think to yourself, what is the likelihood that TnK, the technique that transformed Ryoma from getting his ass-handed to him at the end of the Part I, to becoming God at at the end of Part I, being crushed off-screen?

    It's rather unlikely.

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    Re: Tokugawa vs Yukimura

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantron View Post
    There's a clear character tier going on. Shuuji, for example, seems to expect Tezuka to have TMnY (while other high schoolers thought Tezuka was good prior to TMnY, he said that's not even his true potential) so you'd have to assume TMnY isn't anything special to him, even though we haven't actually see anything from him.
    I don't really agree with this line of thought. Just because he felt that Tezuka had more potential than what he had already shown doesn't say anything about whether he thinks it's special or not, it just shows that he seems to be good at judging people's abilities.

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    Re: Tokugawa vs Yukimura

    You guys are too caught up on TMnY being invinicible. Nanjirou said TMnY is a state of being of just enjoying tennis even if you're absolutely getting crushed. Put it this way, if Nanjirou and Ryoma both use TMnY, presumably Nanjirou will still utterly crush Ryoma. The point of TMnY is that you're supposed to go beyond things like worrying about winning/losing and just have fun and then it brings out your maximum potential. It doesn't guaranteed victory because that if that's what it does, it's exactly contradictory to one of the requirement to get TMnY, namely just have fun and not worry about winning and losing.

    Since Tokugawa is clearly on another level in terms of base stats there's no reason why he can't beat Ryoma even with TMnY by his sheer base stats. The 5/10 ball training stuff is presumably base attribute training so you can say Ryoma/Kintaro's base stat is just way too low compared to Tokugawa/Oni to win during their first encounter. By the way, TMnY is a state of being, so unless Ryoma has amnesia again how does he exactly forget what 'have fun' means? From what Nanjirou's explanation TMnY is pretty much just playing at 100% of your maximum potential and there's no law that says playing at 100% of your max potential means you can never lose especially given the obvious base stat difference in NPOT.

    TMnY is probably guaranteed win against remotely comparable tier character, but there's no reason to believe Tokugawa started out as anything comparable to Ryoma. Even with TMnY, hitting 2 balls back after a Samurai Drive took considerable concentration for Ryoma, while Tokugawa can casually hit 5 balls and is capable of doing 10. There's numerous examples of the top tier high schoolers have absolutely ridiculous stats, like Oni having twice the power of Momoshiro while using a gimmik racket, and so on.

    Anyway back to Tokugawa, he's described as 'similar to Yukimura' in terms of his presence/aura. So why would someone who is clearly in the top tier with similar to Yukimura's characterics be vulnerable to Yukimura's techniques? Yes sometimes certain technique counter certain person but Yukimura/Tokugawa both look like your generic all-arounder. If you want to say yips is more effective on a power player (say, Duke) maybe, but Yukimura and Tokugawa are both described as similar in style/presence and it's clear Tokugawa has much higher base stats.
    Last edited by Phantron; October 06, 2012 at 04:12 PM.

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