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View Poll Results: Who will win?

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Thread: [Semifinals - Team 3 vs Team 6 Singles 1] Sanada vs Oni

  1. #16
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member TheShiraishi's Avatar
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    Re: [Semifinals - Team 3 vs Team 6 Singles 1] Sanada vs Oni

    I feel like the very concept of Rin goes against Sanada's play style. Sure it's part of the FuuRinKaInZanRai but it doesn't require him to use his power. It's a technique-based drop shot and isn't based on his physical abilities as much as his mental. Ka uses his power, Fuu uses his arm speed, Zan uses his endurance, and Rai uses his DBZ teleport ability. In is arguable since it also uses his mental, but it's also pretty exclusive in its use so I don't think he minds using it (exclusive in that it only counters a few moves) All Rin is is a carefully controlled dropshot and thus, it goes against his play all out head on style of tennis and his title of Emperor.

    Evidence here:
    Spoiler show

  2. #17
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: [Semifinals - Team 3 vs Team 6 Singles 1] Sanada vs Oni

    Quote Originally Posted by TheShiraishi View Post
    I feel like the very concept of Rin goes against Sanada's play style. Sure it's part of the FuuRinKaInZanRai but it doesn't require him to use his power. It's a technique-based drop shot and isn't based on his physical abilities as much as his mental. Ka uses his power, Fuu uses his arm speed, Zan uses his endurance, and Rai uses his DBZ teleport ability. In is arguable since it also uses his mental, but it's also pretty exclusive in its use so I don't think he minds using it (exclusive in that it only counters a few moves) All Rin is is a carefully controlled dropshot and thus, it goes against his play all out head on style of tennis and his title of Emperor.
    Well of course that brings the question if using Rin to counter tech moves is dirty then when is it ever NOT dirty to use Rin, since Rin seems to exist to only counter tech moves (it sure doesn't look like an offensive move). Sanada's 'Emperor' style is clearly that if opponent plays style X he plays the same style with more of whatever that style requires, except for tech type players. I guess versus tech players he is supposed to use a combination of everything but Rin to overpower them, since we know Rin, as described, pretty much unconditionally counters all techs.

    So if Sanada plays his 'Emperor' style tennis he can't beat Oni because it's hard to see he just get more power than Oni. But if he plays the 'counter' style he has a good chance of winning. Again Ryoma's Fu counters Sanada's Ka despite the extreme difference in physical ability of the two, so we can infer Sanada has very strong counter styles. But I don't see him abandoning his tennis style for a personal match and he's not going to beat Oni head-on.

  3. #18
    Intl Translator 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Airgrimes's Avatar
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    Re: [Semifinals - Team 3 vs Team 6 Singles 1] Sanada vs Oni

    Quote Originally Posted by FrostyMouse View Post
    I gave Sanada 10 at Once as a reasonable improvement, Letal.
    How is 10 at once reasonable?
    It was given to Ryoma. The Main character.
    Why should we assume Sanada would get BA, AND 10 ball return?

    Are just gonna assume Kintaro and Akutsu have it too?

    ---------- Post added at 03:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:10 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantron View Post
    For Sanada versus Fuji, Rai speed (doesn't have to hit with Rai) + Rin will shut down everything Fuji has the same way it can shut down Tezuka's moves, but Sanada won't do that because that isn't how the Emperor plays. Instead he'll try to attack head on with Ka/Rai and Fuji will eventually figure out a way to counter that.

    Rin, as portrayed so far, is auto-win against tech-type players. It's unclear why Sanada considers using Rin dishonorable against tech players, but he's extremely reluctant to use Rin against tech-type players.
    Since in Rikkai Dai, nobody likes just ''winning''.
    They ALL like to Destroy, Crush and Annihalate.

    Sanada came out with all of FRKRIZ in the first game.
    Tearing apart TZ, Hyakku Ren, ZSD.

    Yagyuu/Niou used a switch to destroy GP's mind.

    Yanagi/Kirihara didn't attack all-out from the outset and just returned Kaidoh/Inui's best moves at the start.

    Marui/Jackal had Jackal hit Boomerang Snake, tearing Kaidoh's mind apart.

    Yuki didn't attack from the outset, but casually returned everything Ryoma had early on, trying to convey defeat into him.

    Niou became Tezuka JUST to leave Fuji with nothing left. When Yukimura knows he could have become Yuki or Sanada instead.

    Kirihara is just a violent dude. Self explanatory.

    So, not crushing your opponent head-on is unlike the style of Rikkai.
    The whole reason Sanada went out of his team's way to get Ryoma to face Yuki. As he wanted it that Rikkai somewhat shut down Seigaku.

    ---------- Post added at 03:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:17 PM ----------

    And on this,
    To be assuming Sanada has suddenly improved far beyond with what we have seen is just being an intense fan. Not necessary.

    What need's to be understood I believe is that the gap between the top MSers in the camp, Ryoma, Yuki, Sanada, Kintaro, Niou, Atobe, Akutsu in Singles between the top HSers Byoudouin, Tanegashima, Ryoga, Duke, Oni, Irie and Tokugawa and possibly Ohmagari,
    likely isn't as big as it was at the start of SPoT.

    There has been a level of general improvement from everyone. Which would explain why Kite who I rate around Inui/Yanagi level, and Marui who I rate around Hirakoba level, are able to take on No.8 & 7 and look like they will win.

    Otherwise this whole G10 thing would be pointless if the best HSers can't be levels above anymore. There cannot be much difference between the Top HSers and MSers anymore.
    Sanada winning this isn't impossible.
    As a matter of fact, I see a few MSers defeating Oni.

  4. #19
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member LetalHawk's Avatar
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    Re: [Semifinals - Team 3 vs Team 6 Singles 1] Sanada vs Oni

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    Otherwise this whole G10 thing would be pointless if the best HSers can't be levels above anymore. There cannot be much difference between the Top HSers and MSers anymore.
    Sanada winning this isn't impossible.
    As a matter of fact, I see a few MSers defeating Oni.
    The MS growth is just amazing, the top MS will close the gap between them and the top HS of the first string quick.

    Of course it's not impossible, Sanada can win this. He can return Oni's BJK easily and probably his next move after some tries, Sanada overwhelmed by Oni is just impossible and unlikely.

    About a few, players like Echizen, Yukimura and Sanada are the only ones I see defeating Oni. I won't say Tezuka because with his current level and POP would destroy Oni.

  5. #20
    Intl Translator 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Airgrimes's Avatar
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    Re: [Semifinals - Team 3 vs Team 6 Singles 1] Sanada vs Oni

    Quote Originally Posted by LetalHawk View Post
    The MS growth is just amazing, the top MS will close the gap between them and the top HS of the first string quick.

    Of course it's not impossible, Sanada can win this. He can return Oni's BJK easily and probably his next move after some tries, Sanada overwhelmed by Oni is just impossible and unlikely.

    About a few, players like Echizen, Yukimura and Sanada are the only ones I see defeating Oni. I won't say Tezuka because with his current level and POP would destroy Oni.
    Not just Ryoma, Yuki and Sanada.
    I mean I don't think its impossible that Niou or Akutsu or Atobe defeats Oni too.

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  7. #21
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Fayte's Avatar
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    Re: [Semifinals - Team 3 vs Team 6 Singles 1] Sanada vs Oni

    My turn.

    I will start my argument by saying if anybody is beating Oni in this series, it is Sanada.

    Black Aura is pure speculation? Excuse me? SO IS ONI. When have we ever actually seen a full match from Oni against someone who isn't a low tier character like Momo? Oh that's right, the day after never. Any of the top MSers would have defeated Momo 6-0 so that is no feat, nor does it give us any information about Oni. What next? We are shown that Oni beat Kintarou. Wow! so did Yukimura! And when Yukimura did it, we still knew nothing about him even after their match. Next...we don't even see Oni win against court 3. Next...we don't even see Oni beat Kaji. Sounds to me you all know as much about Oni as you do about Black Aura, which is next to nothing. I don't want to hear that "speculation" bullcrap from you people, when this whole series is speculation.

    That said, it would be ABSURD to suggest Black Aura does not raise Sanada's ability level/stats when not only does EVERY SINGLE AURA do that, but Sanada's shot was obviously faster during that moment. Not only that, but why the hell would Konomi reveal a "NEW" aura and have it not effect Sanada's ability level? "Ohai, this is the greatest new technique thus far called black aura which does not make Sanada any better than he was prior to using it eventhoughhewasabletoscoreapointagainstyukimurawhenhecouldn'tbefore." Suggesting Sanada's stats did not increase with BA would be absolutely ridiculous and it would contradict every single literary move Konomi has ever done with this story. That was just flat-out incorrect.

    Let me clear this up for the willfully ignorant or those in denial:

    The entire purpose for Konomi showing us Black Aura to begin with, was to show a hidden potential within Sanada's character. A "potential" that is greater than Yukimura. If you didn't get that from that one point he took in the tiebreak match, you missed the point ENTIRELY. Sanada coming back from the mountains training and briefly showing BA to the noobs was to tell us, the reader, that he has unlocked that hidden potential. I'm sorry, but that's just a fact of the storytelling. The thing we are supposed to assume about Sanada is that guy who took that one point from Yukimura is now the standard. Sanada has raised the bar, and he is no longer that same Sanada who played Yukimura.

    As far as this story goes, Oni is not going to "improve." He is a stepping stone character that a chosen middle-schooler needs to climb over. This is true because we have yet to see the fullness of Oni. We HAVE seen the fullness of Sanada, and he evolved. We have yet to see the fullness of this evolution (Black aura), which means if Sanada were to play Oni, it would be shown. Oni simply would not defeat Black Aura. When push comes to shove, Sanada will win this no matter what. If Konomi did this match, he would have to show both the extent of Oni's power and the extent of Sanada's power in the SAME MATCH. If Konomi had to choose between giving a "pass" to Sanada or Oni, he is going with the former. Sorry, Sanada did not improve just to be defeated the very second he shows it. That makes Black Aura an anticlimatic build, which is contrary to Konomi's writing style. This series is about the evolution of middle schoolers, not high schoolers.

    Sanada wins 7-5
    Last edited by Fayte; October 13, 2012 at 11:21 PM.

  8. #22
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted FrostyMouse's Avatar
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    Re: [Semifinals - Team 3 vs Team 6 Singles 1] Sanada vs Oni

    Fayte, the problem with your whole argument is that this tournament isn't based on the plot of SPoT. In the manga, yes, Konomi will probably have Sanada defeat either Shuuji or Oni; however, this isn't the manga and there is no plot to advance the MSers here.

    What we saw out of BA was just a great speed shot. That doesn't actually mean that his stats increased. Did they probably increase? Yes, but it's not shown or stated.

    Based on what we've seen so far in the manga and because this isn't about the plot of SPoT, Sanada hasn't shown enough to beat Oni, and that's the point you're missing, Fayte. I've freely agreed that Sanada will almost certainly beat a top 5 HSer in the G10 challenge matches, regardless of whether he really should or not, but that has nothing to do with this tournament.

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  10. #23
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Fayte's Avatar
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    Re: [Semifinals - Team 3 vs Team 6 Singles 1] Sanada vs Oni

    Quote Originally Posted by FrostyMouse View Post
    Fayte, the problem with your whole argument is that this tournament isn't based on the plot of SPoT. Based on what we've seen so far in the manga and because this isn't about the plot of SPoT, Sanada hasn't shown enough to beat Oni, and that's the point you're missing,
    I don't think you understand my argument. There is nothing (by your logic) to suggest Oni can beat Sanada.
    Last edited by Fayte; October 13, 2012 at 11:31 PM.

  11. #24
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted FrostyMouse's Avatar
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    Re: [Semifinals - Team 3 vs Team 6 Singles 1] Sanada vs Oni

    Quote Originally Posted by Fayte View Post
    I don't think you understand my argument. There is nothing (by your logic) to suggest Oni can beat Sanada.
    Your argument is that by the plot of SPoT, Sanada should win. What's there to miss there? If you think that you said something other than that, it didn't come across to anyone else.

    Did you read anything I typed in my original argument, Fayte?

    We've seen more out of Oni than out of Sanada, and Sanada needs improvements to stand on the court with Oni at the moment. Reasonable improvements are fine and all, and I granted him 10 at Once for the purpose of this, but Sanada just needs too much and it has to be assumed that BA is as great as you think it is in order for Sanada to even have a chance. You also seem to be ignoring that Kaji implies that Oni has another technique, possibly Black Tomahawk.

  12. #25
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Fayte's Avatar
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    Re: [Semifinals - Team 3 vs Team 6 Singles 1] Sanada vs Oni

    Quote Originally Posted by FrostyMouse View Post
    Your argument is that by the plot of SPoT, Sanada should win. What's there to miss there? If you think that you said something other than that, it didn't come across to anyone else.

    Did you read anything I typed in my original argument, Fayte?

    We've seen more out of Oni than out of Sanada, and Sanada needs improvements to stand on the court with Oni at the moment. Reasonable improvements are fine and all, and I granted him 10 at Once for the purpose of this, but Sanada just needs too much and it has to be assumed that BA is as great as you think it is in order for Sanada to even have a chance. You also seem to be ignoring that Kaji implies that Oni has another technique, possibly Black Tomahawk.
    And I am arguing that we have not seen more of Oni. Every single match Oni has ever played would have had the same result, had Sanada been in his place. Sanada would have raped Momoshiro, destroyed moustache man on court 3, and dominated Kaji. There is absolutely no base for arguing that Oni somehow has something against Sanada. Saying Oni may have black tomahawk is no different than saying Sanada has black aura. Oni having black tomahawk is speculation, whereas Sanada having black aura is fact. There is no argument for "black aura may not even be that good." Fact of the matter is, it was good enough to beat Yukimura. That's all the facts you need. Oni needs more to beat Sanada than Sanada needs to beat Oni.

  13. #26
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member -Ken-'s Avatar
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    Re: [Semifinals - Team 3 vs Team 6 Singles 1] Sanada vs Oni

    It's really funny that people are suggesting that Sanada can beat Oni, but Echizen can't. Just saying.
    Most of the thing I post is probably assumption if it's not a fact that I support using some evidence from the manga.

    If you knows you're on my ignore list and you quote my post, there's high chance I would ignore you. Or answer you and not look at your response.

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  15. #27
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    Re: [Semifinals - Team 3 vs Team 6 Singles 1] Sanada vs Oni

    The middle schoolers have amazing growth because the high schoolers starts with an amazing physical advantage over them. In Atobe's game against G10 he said that an endurance match against high schooler is bad for them and this is the face of endurance amongst middle schoolers. Oni starts out with >2X strength of Momoshiro (who isn't exactly a physically weak person). High schoolers can hit 10 balls at once while 2 was considered amazing for middle schoolers (Samurai Drive). So of course the middle schoolers need to have amazing growth or they wouldn't even stand a chance.

    This discussion is not supposed to be the manga, otherwise Ryoma would never lose and you can pretty much just figure out who'll win based on popularity. I think it's fair to say like 'Kirihara gets random upgrades more often than other people' as a consideration, or "Fuji is likely to develop another technique", but that alone doesn't mean they must win. Indeed a lot of Kirihara's upgrade turn out to be useless (probably why he gets so many), and Fuji's new techniques can be stopped (e.g. versus Shiraishi).

    Sanada is the most physically gifted character out of all middle schoolers. He and Kintarou are the only top tier middle schoolers who doesn't need plot immunity to return a Black Jack Knife level power shot. That is, if you strip everyone's plot immunity there's really nothing stopping Oni from shattering the wrist of Tezuka/Ryoma/Fuji/Yukimura because there's no reason to believe any of these guys have a higher physical strength than Momoshiro, and whatever tech you might use to return BJK can be argued that Oni's status as a 10-baller can neutralize whatever tech you tried to use to neutralize his power. So in a game absence of plot immunity, he (and Kintarou) are definitely your best choices because you wouldn't have to worry about wrist-shattering effects.

    Now Black Aura almost certainly gives him a stat boost but there's no way it'll take him directly above Oni since the top high schooler's stats are meant to be incomparable. So in the end it still boils down to how Sanada wants to play Oni. Given his personality he ought to just do Ka versus BJK, but he'll lose because he can't overpower Oni. We know Sanada can play an extremely strong counter game, but he hates doing so because that's not how the Emperor is supposed to play. So the question boils down is Sanada willing to change his style, or is he going to play Oni head-on? I'm inclined to think Sanada won't change his style, though you can argue that after getting slapped by Yukimura he may have changed his mind toward his style.

    ---------- Post added at 02:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:53 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Fayte View Post
    And I am arguing that we have not seen more of Oni. Every single match Oni has ever played would have had the same result, had Sanada been in his place. Sanada would have raped Momoshiro, destroyed moustache man on court 3, and dominated Kaji. There is absolutely no base for arguing that Oni somehow has something against Sanada. Saying Oni may have black tomahawk is no different than saying Sanada has black aura. Oni having black tomahawk is speculation, whereas Sanada having black aura is fact. There is no argument for "black aura may not even be that good." Fact of the matter is, it was good enough to beat Yukimura. That's all the facts you need. Oni needs more to beat Sanada than Sanada needs to beat Oni.
    Black Aura isn't going to take a middle schooler's base stat to above Oni level characters. That just seems downright impossible given how the top high schoolers are described.

    Of course, Sanada's available moves seem significantly better than BJK, so he has a move edge. However, like I mentioned, Sanada generally prefers matching move for move against his opponent. If he uses Ka versus BJK then you're just looking at pure power versus pure power, which he should lose. If he uses Fu (which has been shown to counter power shots), it should beat BJK, but the question is what style will Sanada use?

  16. #28
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member LetalHawk's Avatar
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    Re: [Semifinals - Team 3 vs Team 6 Singles 1] Sanada vs Oni

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    It's really funny that people are suggesting that Sanada can beat Oni, but Echizen can't. Just saying.
    While Echizen has way more potential than Sanada and would have won against Oni, people just decided that Oni had to defeat Echizen, while in fact Echizen's monstruous growth would make him win. Seriously, people give too much hype to Oni when players like Echizen and Sanada would defeat him, and players like Yukimura would rape him completely.

  17. #29
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Hardy's Avatar
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    Re: [Semifinals - Team 3 vs Team 6 Singles 1] Sanada vs Oni

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    It's really funny that people are suggesting that Sanada can beat Oni, but Echizen can't. Just saying.
    I didn't thought that Echizen could be able to return BJK (even with Muga), but I do see Sanada returning it.

  18. #30
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member -Ken-'s Avatar
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    Re: [Semifinals - Team 3 vs Team 6 Singles 1] Sanada vs Oni

    Quote Originally Posted by Eiji Kikumaru View Post
    I didn't thought that Echizen could be able to return BJK (even with Muga), but I do see Sanada returning it.
    Well, Echizen do return a shot more dangerous than a shot that break a spotlight without any problem. I don't think BJK would be that much of a problem for him. But this is all off topic.

    For me? I see them both returning it.
    Most of the thing I post is probably assumption if it's not a fact that I support using some evidence from the manga.

    If you knows you're on my ignore list and you quote my post, there's high chance I would ignore you. Or answer you and not look at your response.

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