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View Poll Results: Who will win?

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  • Sanada Gen'ichirou

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Thread: [Semifinals - Team 3 vs Team 6 Singles 1] Sanada vs Oni

  1. #31
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    Re: [Semifinals - Team 3 vs Team 6 Singles 1] Sanada vs Oni

    Argument about potential is meaningless because Sanada and Ryoma aren't at the same point in their career. For the most part Sanada's evaluation that Ryoma has potential but doesn't really understand how to use all the moves he learned because he learned them so quickly is pretty much spot on. Without plot immunity bailing him out at the last second he'd lose quite a few games because he actually mastered everything. These games are presumably without plot immunity or it wouldn't make sense to talk about them, so you can't count on Ryoma randomly unlocking secrets nobody has figured out in a generation to win.

    On the other hand Sanada pretty much has no plot bailouts but he also starts with the highest physical stats out of just about any middle schooler to make up for that. I don't think that is enough if he doesn't change his style but he and Kintarou are the only top tier MSers that don't have to worry about wrist shattering attacks from Oni.

  2. #32
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    Post Re: [Semifinals - Team 3 vs Team 6 Singles 1] Sanada vs Oni

    @Phantron
    You really think Kintaro and Sanada are the only guys who won't have shattered wrists?

    So Oni destroyed Nationals!Momoshiro and Kaji. People we should expect that Niou, Yuki, Atobe, Ryoma would have shat on.
    There's Kintaro, who would definetely lose to Niou and Yuki.

    Since when were Atobe, Niou, Yuki, Ryoma the type of players that get raped by the opponents power from a match??
    Niou, Yuki and Ryoma are definetely are at a level where they can gather up the technique to be returning Oni's power shots.

    Since Technique can ALWAYS cancel out power.
    This whole Sanada is the only guy who could handle Oni's power is complete BS.

    Why should we put Sanada on the level of Oni who trains with boulders in terms of power??
    I don't see Sanada lifting boulders. Oni >> Sanada in Power. THat's clear as day.

    Sanada-ists need to chill with that nonsense.

    To suddenly put Sanada at the top of the MSers based off of BA is nonsense too.
    I can't believe people have had Ryoma lose to Oni but Sanada to win.

    who has 10ball return and will be able to perform TnK when driven into a corner.
    (He did so against Kintaro and Yuki).
    We can assume it was plot reasons why we didn't see him bring out Muga on Tokugawa.

    Sanada can bt Oni. But not just him. There are other MSers who could do the same.
    Like BJK is really harder to return than Rai all of a sudden.

  3. #33
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member ashore's Avatar
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    Re: [Semifinals - Team 3 vs Team 6 Singles 1] Sanada vs Oni

    i admit this is a hard choice.

    Irie, who may have has a high technique stat than sanada, should have made it a close game vs sanada.

    If in theory you have high level stat of technique you should be able to see through other people's special moves and counter them(or return them)
    ie. sanada's FUURINKAZAN RAI
    but sanada's shadow technique seals up irie special ability to see through the person's mind.
    so it would have gone down to well rounded tennis play.

    so now fast foward to oni. does he have the same level of technique as Irie? if so... he would be able to counter Fuu Rin .. RAI.
    so it would be again.. about all around tennis skills that would have to be measured.
    but we are just guessing and estimating. so this could be another subjective win based on forum users.
    so if irie had the smarts to

  4. #34
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    Re: [Semifinals - Team 3 vs Team 6 Singles 1] Sanada vs Oni

    The problem with technique counters power is that high end power players have their own technique that negates the recipient's technique. Duke Homerun isn't going to stopped by the basic Hyakuren. If it did there's something really wrong with Duke being the #3 player in Japan. When Byodouin did his annihilation ball, neither Tokugawa nor Ryoma can return it. Gin can negate any Hado ball type attacks but obviously cannot do anything about Duke Homerun. At the G10 level you're not talking about power players who are power with no tech like Kawamura. They've power and technique and it's implied their techniques makes it difficult to negate their power shots, otherwise you wouldn't need Ryoga to come in to save the day against Byodouin, given Ryoma has returned plenty of power shots on his own and presumably Tokugawa is still stronger than Ryoma at that point.

    Now in the manga you're not going to see Yukimura have his wrist shattered by BJK so they'll just say something like 'well Yuki's tech is just enough to negate BJK' but that's a plot device. Oni has power and some unknown level of tech negation due to his position as #5 (Byodouin clearly has tech negation power shots, and no reason to assume Duke at #3 would be any different), and because the stats of the character are unknown you can't even say for sure that the MS tech-based players can deal with Oni's power + tech negation. It is pretty clear Momoshiro's base strength is higher than most of the top tier MSers (top tier MSers don't tend to be power type players). Since Oni can hit 10 balls at once it's implied he has pretty strong tech to begin with, so you have no way of even being sure that his power shots can't directly punch through any power negation techs at this point.

    Sanada has always been a character that's high on stats and low on miracles. Since POT matches are generally won by miracles, not basic stats, he's not necessarily unstoppable in the manga. But these hypothetical matches should strip out the miracles. For example, Sanada said there's only a 1% chance Cool Drive can succeed (since Ryoma just learned it, again showing his obvious weakness of lack of mastery of high end moves). That means Sanada vs Ryoma, if played out 100 times, should end with Sanada winning 99 out of 100 because Ryoma's trump card, Cool Drive, is supposed to fail 99 out of 100 times due to his lack of experience. Of course in the manga Ryoma always beats 1 in 100 or worse odds comfortably, but this isn't the manga. Sanada, due to his lack of reliance on miracles, is probably the best matchup against the top HSers. I don't know if he'll win, but at least he won't get into a situation of 'need another miracle or 3' to win.

    ---------- Post added at 03:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:15 PM ----------

    Just to clarify, there's no way Sanada's stats even with Black Aura can be as high as Oni's because that'd pretty much defeat the point of HS having unfathomable physical stat (G9/G10 had higher endurance than Atobe, for example).

    But he's going to be the MSer that starts off closest to someone like Oni in pure stats for sure, because Sanada has alwyas been a base stat kind of guy and his moves are really just an extension of his basic stats. So far the average MS vs HS game always starts with the MS getting completely slapped and people will comment about how MSer stat are no match for HSer. This is true even at the court 3 matches. At that point the MSer will invoke the power of the plot and get some unbelievable miracle their way to turn things around. But this isn't the kind of tennis match we're talking about. You've to assume these matches strip out plot immunity so that if a MSer is getting slapped they might just stay getting slapped without having a plot miracle to bail them out. Sanada pretty much gets no breaks in terms of plot miracles, but this helps him here because you can't use plot miracles as an argument here.

  5. #35
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    Re: [Semifinals - Team 3 vs Team 6 Singles 1] Sanada vs Oni

    I agree that Sanada can win this.
    But you're overrating the G10 I feel.

    The gap between them and MSers can't be as big as it was anymore. Otherwise this whole G10 thing would be pointless.
    Secondly, Yuki returning Special Shots is no longer plot device. It's most likely Base Technique.

    And regarding Duke's Homerun, why shouldnt Hyakkuren be able to send it back?
    Rai is a different issue. It wasn't a Power Play shot. Hadoukyuu, Summer of Danji and DH (DUke Homerun) are Power play shots.
    Its likely Rai had a random spin on it.

    So really, Hyakku Ren might well return DH and be enough to bt Duke.
    But the issue is, who else has been able to open Hyakku Ren besides Ryoma & Tezuka?
    It's an almost exclusive technique so it doesn't matter.
    Since we've reached just No.s 6 to 1 + Tokugawa left to see their ablities.

    I doubt more than one of them could even have Hyakkuren let alone one.

    And if we are going by Base abilities, Sanada is a dead man. He is strong sure. Stronger than Ishida Gin? Doubt it strongly.
    He isn't anywhere near the fastest MSers. Has Rai which is outside of Base stats.

    He can hit only 5 at a time. Compared to Oni's 10 at a time. It would be silly to assume he improved the same rate Plot Powered Ryoma has.
    In terms of technique, Tezuka and Yuki would be the one's higher than him.

    His Mental seems beast however. Only guy to stand and swing in Yips.
    Stamina is likely solid.

    But all in all, BA is what will change Sanada's match.
    Although it is arguable Oni might not be able to return Rai, it really is down to whatever stat boost BA provides.
    I believe the fact it changed from Sanada unable to take a point off Yuki, to taking a comfortable point, that shows how beast it can make him.

    Again, there are a few MSers who could take on G5 and win.

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  7. #36
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    Re: [Semifinals - Team 3 vs Team 6 Singles 1] Sanada vs Oni

    If Hyakuren can return any arbitary power shot then Ryoma should've been able to return Byodouin's annihilation ball. Either it won't work or he somehow forgot it and either way it doesn't matter because if Ryoma has magically forgotten Hyakuren then nobody currently in NPOT in Japan has Hyakuren.

    At any rate Hyakuren isn't even that hard for Yukimura to handle (he loses to it without yips, but not badly) and you think a technique like that will completely shut down Duke, who is the #3 player in Japan? They talk about how you got to see the world-class level playing to open your horizons and yet the G3 player gets shut down by a move that middle schoolers have and presumably isn't rare at all at the world level?

    For a long time the 'power' players are guys with only power and no tech, but this has changed. Byodouin, Duke, and Oni are all power type players but it's clear they've decent tech, at least enough so that their power shots don't get automatically cheesed by POT magic. In absence of plot immunity, most of the high tier MSers aren't even better than Momoshiro in terms of avoiding a one hit KO injury simply because most high tier MSers have never been shown to do any feats of significant physical strength. Even if they don't sustain a wrist shattering injury they can easily take a racket busting attack that they can't tech out of and then they'd pretty much be doomed.

    Now BJK versus Black Aura Sanada probably would like Ka vs Tezuka Zone. BJK should break through Black Aura the same way Ka can break through Tezuka Zone but it will take time. During that time Sanada potentially can vary his strategy. Given his personality, he's unlikely to do it, but at least he has a window of opportunity to work with.

    The stats of HS starts out unfathomably high to account for the fact that of course all MSer will have unbelievable growth. However, the HSer are still above the MSer even at the end of their unbelieveable growth (not counting TnK). Atobe, who is THE endurance man of MSer, consistently loses in endurance matches and he even acknowledges that you can't get into an extended fight in his doubles match. Now that doesn't mean MSer can't possibly match up, it just means you can't directly try to overpower a HSer at the G10 level and expect to get anywhere. That's also Sanada's biggest weakness because of course he will just try to overpower anyone no matter what, since that's how he plays. Sanada's stats will at least give him a shot at playing Oni, but his unwilling to vary his style means he can't win the old way. Now will Sanada switch his style to win? It seems unlikely but he did that against Tezuka, so you can't say it can't possibly happen.

    The most likely way Sanada can beat Oni is simply switch to a speed game (Oni doesn't seem particularly fast, as Momoshiro forced him to lob the ball with a drop shot) and avoid Oni's power, but of course we know if Sanada did that you'll have a bunch of noobs on the side shouting: "OMG he (Sanada) is playing dirty and avoiding a head on challenge! He's not worthy to be the Emperor!" and really that'd be worse than losing for a guy like Sanada.

  8. #37
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member TheShiraishi's Avatar
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    Re: [Semifinals - Team 3 vs Team 6 Singles 1] Sanada vs Oni

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantron View Post
    If Hyakuren can return any arbitary power shot then Ryoma should've been able to return Byodouin's annihilation ball. Either it won't work or he somehow forgot it and either way it doesn't matter because if Ryoma has magically forgotten Hyakuren then nobody currently in NPOT in Japan has Hyakuren.
    Errr... Tezuka Kunimitsu anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantron View Post
    The most likely way Sanada can beat Oni is simply switch to a speed game (Oni doesn't seem particularly fast, as Momoshiro forced him to lob the ball with a drop shot) and avoid Oni's power, but of course we know if Sanada did that you'll have a bunch of noobs on the side shouting: "OMG he (Sanada) is playing dirty and avoiding a head on challenge! He's not worthy to be the Emperor!" and really that'd be worse than losing for a guy like Sanada.
    Tarundoru! xD


  9. #38
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    Re: [Semifinals - Team 3 vs Team 6 Singles 1] Sanada vs Oni

    Quote Originally Posted by TheShiraishi View Post
    Errr... Tezuka Kunimitsu anyone?
    Tezuka went to Germany, so he's not in Japan right now.

    Actually Niou can still use Hyakuren, but the fact he didn't really use it in the doubles match suggest it's just not as uber as it once was at the G10 level.
    Last edited by Phantron; October 14, 2012 at 08:46 PM.

  10. #39
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    Re: [Semifinals - Team 3 vs Team 6 Singles 1] Sanada vs Oni

    Quote Originally Posted by TheShiraishi View Post
    Errr... Tezuka Kunimitsu anyone?
    He's technically not in Japan, he's in Germany lol... TARUNDORU!

  11. #40
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member TheShiraishi's Avatar
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    Re: [Semifinals - Team 3 vs Team 6 Singles 1] Sanada vs Oni

    Awwww fine.. Why would you bother saying that then? Ryoma, Tezuka, and Niou are the only three anyways.

    Oh please Konomi, give Shiraishi Hyakuren... he's gonna be forgotten soon anyways ;(

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  13. #41
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    Re: [Semifinals - Team 3 vs Team 6 Singles 1] Sanada vs Oni

    I can see two possible branches on this game.

    Oni will start ahead say 4-2, you'd see Black Aura, Furinkazan, Black Jack Knife/Tomahwak/Bomb/TNT/whatever and someone will comment on how this MSer is the first person to get a game off a G10 in what appears to be legitmate tennis as opposed to supernatural powers.

    Branch A:

    Yukimura: "Alright Sanada, I was watching the game and I noticed Oni is fast but not that fast. All his shots take some time to get ready, so if you use Rai to hit the ball as far away as possible he won't have time to prepare his Black (whatever) and then you can win!"

    Sanada: "Are you suggesting I use STRATEGY?"

    Yukimura: "Um, yeah."

    Sanada: "Yukimura, you have forgotten what it means to be an Emperor! An Emperor never runs away from his opponent!"

    Yukimura: "Um, sure, whatever."

    Oni wins 6-2.

    Branch B

    Yukimura: "Alright Sanada, I was watching the game and I noticed Oni is fast but not that fast. All his shots take some time to get ready, so if you use Rai to hit the ball as far away as possible he won't have time to prepare his Black (whatever) and then you can win!"

    Sanada: "Sounds like a great idea!"

    Sanada wins 6-4.

  14. #42
    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner FuRinKaZan's Avatar
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    Re: [Semifinals - Team 3 vs Team 6 Singles 1] Sanada vs Oni

    First i just want to ask if say that "Sanada would play like this style or something like that because he is the emperor" is or not based in plot line?, is a speculation again?

    So, say G10 chars skills, is just a especulation again, for a player like oni, who we've seen just like 1 "real" match (against Momo, who is not one of the strongest chars), we can't say that he had enough power to beat Sanada, is just ridiculous. BJK can be returned by Kintaro ( Sanada can?, i really thing it is very possible,), next oni tech (black tomahawk, possibly.) we don't know what does that and anything about his power or something.

    Black Aura Speculation?, please, what about the possiby "B.Tomahawk"?

    Finally, if we focus in a Techs vs Tech and Stats vs stats, it would be just a speculation say that Oni can beat Sanada, cause we don't what Oni really can do.
    Sanada can beat Oni for sure, of course not easily, but he can. for me 6-4 or 7-5 for Sanada

    Note: The HS are very overrated for someones, and about Ryoma vs Oni, i really think that was a big mistake. :/

    Hope you understand my bad english.

  15. #43
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    Re: [Semifinals - Team 3 vs Team 6 Singles 1] Sanada vs Oni

    Quote Originally Posted by FuRinKaZan View Post
    First i just want to ask if say that "Sanada would play like this style or something like that because he is the emperor" is or not based in plot line?, is a speculation again?

    So, say G10 chars skills, is just a especulation again, for a player like oni, who we've seen just like 1 "real" match (against Momo, who is not one of the strongest chars), we can't say that he had enough power to beat Sanada, is just ridiculous. BJK can be returned by Kintaro ( Sanada can?, i really thing it is very possible,), next oni tech (black tomahawk, possibly.) we don't know what does that and anything about his power or something.

    Black Aura Speculation?, please, what about the possiby "B.Tomahawk"?

    Finally, if we focus in a Techs vs Tech and Stats vs stats, it would be just a speculation say that Oni can beat Sanada, cause we don't what Oni really can do.
    Sanada can beat Oni for sure, of course not easily, but he can. for me 6-4 or 7-5 for Sanada

    Note: The HS are very overrated for someones, and about Ryoma vs Oni, i really think that was a big mistake. :/

    Hope you understand my bad english.
    The whole "Emperor" thing is pretty clearly a limitation on Sanada. If he played like any reasonable people it'd be like:

    Versus Ryoma: "I just remembered I can use Rai." 6-2 Sanada
    Versus Tezuka: "Tezuka Phantom? Rin takes care of that no problem." 6-1 Sanada (Rin can't return 0th serve).

    He has a self-enforced rule where he has to beat the opponent at their strength, i.e. Ka vs power, Fu versus speed, and Zan versus endurance, despite the fact that there's an implied Fu > Ka > Zan > Fu counter property, which means he can completely trash anyone who isn't capable of playing all 3 styles equally well. Rin, which absolutely eats up tech type players, is apparently considered 'dirty' to him.

    So given those limitation he won't beat Oni because it's hard to see Sanada beating Oni in the power game. Just like Ryoma's Fu can beat Sanada's Ka, though, it should be pretty easy for Sanada to sidestep Oni's power game but all evidence in POT points toward Sanada considering playing a counter-type game as absolutely ridiculous.

  16. #44
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member ashore's Avatar
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    Re: [Semifinals - Team 3 vs Team 6 Singles 1] Sanada vs Oni

    i think sanada dont consider himself emperor anymore. this title was used when he was in MS. now that there are new HS players to defeat. that title probably has to do more with winning and being at the top. but since there's no way i can (at the current time) see sanada besting Byoudin , i he and we shouldnt use that title with all seriousness.

    another topic of disucssion, we saw kintaro use a power move vs oni's BJK.

    Is sanada's fire smash considered a power move and can it negate BJK's wrist smasher?

  17. #45
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Fayte's Avatar
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    Re: [Semifinals - Team 3 vs Team 6 Singles 1] Sanada vs Oni

    People need to remember that the G10 are STEPPING STONES in this series. OBVIOUSLY the Middle Schoolers will be the ones playing for Japan, this whole series is about them. There will not be any high schoolers left on this team once these matches are over, mark my words.

    Also, Phantron what the heck were you talking about with BJK breaking through BA? Kintarou returned it no problem. That means Sanada would too.

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